Getting my SB 9C working


Mark Moulding
 

My father bought this South Bend 9C, possibly new or with some demo deal (as he had almost no money at the time), around 1940.  I purchased the serial card from Grizzly, and it all matches up except, oddly, the length of the bed (the card says 3', but it's actually 3-1/2'); since the serial number is on the bed, it's hard to understand that mismatch.

Regardless, he used it for a while, then while I was growing up we'd make a few projects with me "helping" (I was around 10 to 15 at the time).  He died, far too young at 55, in 1980, and the lathe had a tarp thrown over it.  There it sat at my mother's house until she died about a year ago (at 96).  I cleaned out her house, and put it in a storage unit for the next year.  The unit was fairly near the waterfront in the San Francisco bay area, but when I stored it I drenched everything with BoeShield.  Now I've moved it up to my new (heated, dehumidified) shop in Oregon, and one of my first retirement projects is to get it working again.

Amazingly, there is essentially no rust anywhere.  The exposed iron and steel has darkened a bit, but appears to be in good shape.  Because I know its entire history, I'm certain that it wasn't mechanically mistreated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to bring back to life.  I've mounted the lathe and motor on a new table, and replaced the leather drive belt with a new one - the V-belt, although aged, still appears to be usable.  But there seems to be a problem...

The main spindle won't turn.  If I disengage the back gears and pull the locking pin, the cone pulley spins fairly freely, but I've been unable to get the spindle to move.  I also disengaged the change gear reversing gears, to no effect - it's the spindle itself that's really locked up solidly.  I feel as though it must just be dried lubricant on the bearings, because it was working when stored, but if so it's a lot more locked-up than I would have expected.  I tried mounting a 10-inch faceplate, and even with that I couldn't apply enough torque to break it free (I may be retired, but I'm not too feeble yet...).  I stopped short of putting a pipe wrench on it, but just barely...

Any other ideas about what I should try, before breaking down and disassembling the whole thing (which I've been trying to avoid)?  And once I get it moving, any recommendations for chemicals and methods to clean off the 50 years of crud?  I already have a rebuild kit (felts and such-like) and a kit of oils, but I'd like to get it cleaned up first.

(I'm still moving into the shop - please forgive all the boxes in the background...)


~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


Jim_B
 

Are you I back Gear?????
I don’t see the handle. 
It’s on the back of the head stock. 
Parallel to the spindle. 
It has two gears, one on either end. 
One engages the spindle gears, the other the bull gear. 
With the pin engaged and the back gear engaged the spindle is locked. 


-8
Jim B,

On Dec 16, 2020, at 8:58 PM, Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:

My father bought this South Bend 9C, possibly new or with some demo deal (as he had almost no money at the time), around 1940.  I purchased the serial card from Grizzly, and it all matches up except, oddly, the length of the bed (the card says 3', but it's actually 3-1/2'); since the serial number is on the bed, it's hard to understand that mismatch.

Regardless, he used it for a while, then while I was growing up we'd make a few projects with me "helping" (I was around 10 to 15 at the time).  He died, far too young at 55, in 1980, and the lathe had a tarp thrown over it.  There it sat at my mother's house until she died about a year ago (at 96).  I cleaned out her house, and put it in a storage unit for the next year.  The unit was fairly near the waterfront in the San Francisco bay area, but when I stored it I drenched everything with BoeShield.  Now I've moved it up to my new (heated, dehumidified) shop in Oregon, and one of my first retirement projects is to get it working again.

Amazingly, there is essentially no rust anywhere.  The exposed iron and steel has darkened a bit, but appears to be in good shape.  Because I know its entire history, I'm certain that it wasn't mechanically mistreated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to bring back to life.  I've mounted the lathe and motor on a new table, and replaced the leather drive belt with a new one - the V-belt, although aged, still appears to be usable.  But there seems to be a problem...

The main spindle won't turn.  If I disengage the back gears and pull the locking pin, the cone pulley spins fairly freely, but I've been unable to get the spindle to move.  I also disengaged the change gear reversing gears, to no effect - it's the spindle itself that's really locked up solidly.  I feel as though it must just be dried lubricant on the bearings, because it was working when stored, but if so it's a lot more locked-up than I would have expected.  I tried mounting a 10-inch faceplate, and even with that I couldn't apply enough torque to break it free (I may be retired, but I'm not too feeble yet...).  I stopped short of putting a pipe wrench on it, but just barely...

Any other ideas about what I should try, before breaking down and disassembling the whole thing (which I've been trying to avoid)?  And once I get it moving, any recommendations for chemicals and methods to clean off the 50 years of crud?  I already have a rebuild kit (felts and such-like) and a kit of oils, but I'd like to get it cleaned up first.

(I'm still moving into the shop - please forgive all the boxes in the background...)

<20201216_165137.jpg>

~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


--
Jim B


mike allen
 

        Mark , It's really not a big deal to pull the spindle . You should make sure that you have new felts for a machine that sat that long . You can get the felts in a set for the whole lathe & then some & a book that walks you

        through the process . You will be glad you , alot cheaper than buying a new spindle & headstock

        https://www.amazon.com/South-Bend-Lathe-Rebuild-Kit/dp/B01K4Z686K/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=south+bend+9c+Lathe+rebuild+manual&qid=1608171634&sr=8-11

        animal

On 12/16/2020 5:58 PM, Mark Moulding wrote:
My father bought this South Bend 9C, possibly new or with some demo deal (as he had almost no money at the time), around 1940.  I purchased the serial card from Grizzly, and it all matches up except, oddly, the length of the bed (the card says 3', but it's actually 3-1/2'); since the serial number is on the bed, it's hard to understand that mismatch.

Regardless, he used it for a while, then while I was growing up we'd make a few projects with me "helping" (I was around 10 to 15 at the time).  He died, far too young at 55, in 1980, and the lathe had a tarp thrown over it.  There it sat at my mother's house until she died about a year ago (at 96).  I cleaned out her house, and put it in a storage unit for the next year.  The unit was fairly near the waterfront in the San Francisco bay area, but when I stored it I drenched everything with BoeShield.  Now I've moved it up to my new (heated, dehumidified) shop in Oregon, and one of my first retirement projects is to get it working again.

Amazingly, there is essentially no rust anywhere.  The exposed iron and steel has darkened a bit, but appears to be in good shape.  Because I know its entire history, I'm certain that it wasn't mechanically mistreated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to bring back to life.  I've mounted the lathe and motor on a new table, and replaced the leather drive belt with a new one - the V-belt, although aged, still appears to be usable.  But there seems to be a problem...

The main spindle won't turn.  If I disengage the back gears and pull the locking pin, the cone pulley spins fairly freely, but I've been unable to get the spindle to move.  I also disengaged the change gear reversing gears, to no effect - it's the spindle itself that's really locked up solidly.  I feel as though it must just be dried lubricant on the bearings, because it was working when stored, but if so it's a lot more locked-up than I would have expected.  I tried mounting a 10-inch faceplate, and even with that I couldn't apply enough torque to break it free (I may be retired, but I'm not too feeble yet...).  I stopped short of putting a pipe wrench on it, but just barely...

Any other ideas about what I should try, before breaking down and disassembling the whole thing (which I've been trying to avoid)?  And once I get it moving, any recommendations for chemicals and methods to clean off the 50 years of crud?  I already have a rebuild kit (felts and such-like) and a kit of oils, but I'd like to get it cleaned up first.

(I'm still moving into the shop - please forgive all the boxes in the background...)


~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


Bill in OKC too
 

Without trying to spin the spindle, pour the oil caps full of kerosene, WD40 or brake cleaner. Let it drain, and repeat several times. Then fill the cups with fresh clean oil, and let it sit for 24 hours or so. Refill the cups, and try to spin it by hand. If it won't spin, repeat the kerosene, WD-40 or brake cleaner, then the fresh oil. Repeat until it is free to spin. Then maybe a couple of times more, just in case. It is essentially varnished so that it sticks together. Wash out the varnish, and replace it with fresh oil, and it should be good as new. 

Kerosene is what my dad used to free up sticky valves and bearings in old engines, and to wash out the grunge that settled in the oil pan of an engine that sat for a long time. He'd replace one quart of a fresh fill of oil, and crank the engine without spark. That would usually get everything freed up. Then he'd start it and let run for not more than 5 minutes. Then dump and replace with fresh oil. WD-40 is a light oil and solvent, and it flows a little easier than kerosene. Brake cleaner is a pretty strong solvent, and flows well, too. Any of them should do it. Or you could cycle through them as you repeat. 

Or pack it up and send it to me. ;) You're a lucky, lucky man! I wish you much fun with your lathe!

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)





On Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 07:58:05 PM CST, Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:


My father bought this South Bend 9C, possibly new or with some demo deal (as he had almost no money at the time), around 1940.  I purchased the serial card from Grizzly, and it all matches up except, oddly, the length of the bed (the card says 3', but it's actually 3-1/2'); since the serial number is on the bed, it's hard to understand that mismatch.

Regardless, he used it for a while, then while I was growing up we'd make a few projects with me "helping" (I was around 10 to 15 at the time).  He died, far too young at 55, in 1980, and the lathe had a tarp thrown over it.  There it sat at my mother's house until she died about a year ago (at 96).  I cleaned out her house, and put it in a storage unit for the next year.  The unit was fairly near the waterfront in the San Francisco bay area, but when I stored it I drenched everything with BoeShield.  Now I've moved it up to my new (heated, dehumidified) shop in Oregon, and one of my first retirement projects is to get it working again.

Amazingly, there is essentially no rust anywhere.  The exposed iron and steel has darkened a bit, but appears to be in good shape.  Because I know its entire history, I'm certain that it wasn't mechanically mistreated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to bring back to life.  I've mounted the lathe and motor on a new table, and replaced the leather drive belt with a new one - the V-belt, although aged, still appears to be usable.  But there seems to be a problem...

The main spindle won't turn.  If I disengage the back gears and pull the locking pin, the cone pulley spins fairly freely, but I've been unable to get the spindle to move.  I also disengaged the change gear reversing gears, to no effect - it's the spindle itself that's really locked up solidly.  I feel as though it must just be dried lubricant on the bearings, because it was working when stored, but if so it's a lot more locked-up than I would have expected.  I tried mounting a 10-inch faceplate, and even with that I couldn't apply enough torque to break it free (I may be retired, but I'm not too feeble yet...).  I stopped short of putting a pipe wrench on it, but just barely...

Any other ideas about what I should try, before breaking down and disassembling the whole thing (which I've been trying to avoid)?  And once I get it moving, any recommendations for chemicals and methods to clean off the 50 years of crud?  I already have a rebuild kit (felts and such-like) and a kit of oils, but I'd like to get it cleaned up first.

(I'm still moving into the shop - please forgive all the boxes in the background...)


~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


Rick
 

I’m with Mike. Pull the spindle, clean it up, replace the felt wicks.  While you are at it, I’d put in a serpentine belt, the grip so much better.


Davis Johnson
 

Plus...

Remove the two socket-head bolts that pinch the bearings. That may open the bearing bore slightly. If you can get the shims out of their slots you can possibly get some lube or cleaner in to the bearing surfaces through the shim slots.

As someone with somewhat roached-up spindle bearings I would suggest that, scary as it seems, you pull the spindle once it is moving for a clean and inspect. While you are in there replace the spindle felts and their springs. They may be solid hunks of varnish.

Patience is rewarded.

On 12/16/20 9:27 PM, Bill in OKC too via groups.io wrote:
Without trying to spin the spindle, pour the oil caps full of kerosene, WD40 or brake cleaner. Let it drain, and repeat several times. Then fill the cups with fresh clean oil, and let it sit for 24 hours or so. Refill the cups, and try to spin it by hand. If it won't spin, repeat the kerosene, WD-40 or brake cleaner, then the fresh oil. Repeat until it is free to spin. Then maybe a couple of times more, just in case. It is essentially varnished so that it sticks together. Wash out the varnish, and replace it with fresh oil, and it should be good as new. 

Kerosene is what my dad used to free up sticky valves and bearings in old engines, and to wash out the grunge that settled in the oil pan of an engine that sat for a long time. He'd replace one quart of a fresh fill of oil, and crank the engine without spark. That would usually get everything freed up. Then he'd start it and let run for not more than 5 minutes. Then dump and replace with fresh oil. WD-40 is a light oil and solvent, and it flows a little easier than kerosene. Brake cleaner is a pretty strong solvent, and flows well, too. Any of them should do it. Or you could cycle through them as you repeat. 

Or pack it up and send it to me. ;) You're a lucky, lucky man! I wish you much fun with your lathe!

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)





On Wednesday, December 16, 2020, 07:58:05 PM CST, Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:


My father bought this South Bend 9C, possibly new or with some demo deal (as he had almost no money at the time), around 1940.  I purchased the serial card from Grizzly, and it all matches up except, oddly, the length of the bed (the card says 3', but it's actually 3-1/2'); since the serial number is on the bed, it's hard to understand that mismatch.

Regardless, he used it for a while, then while I was growing up we'd make a few projects with me "helping" (I was around 10 to 15 at the time).  He died, far too young at 55, in 1980, and the lathe had a tarp thrown over it.  There it sat at my mother's house until she died about a year ago (at 96).  I cleaned out her house, and put it in a storage unit for the next year.  The unit was fairly near the waterfront in the San Francisco bay area, but when I stored it I drenched everything with BoeShield.  Now I've moved it up to my new (heated, dehumidified) shop in Oregon, and one of my first retirement projects is to get it working again.

Amazingly, there is essentially no rust anywhere.  The exposed iron and steel has darkened a bit, but appears to be in good shape.  Because I know its entire history, I'm certain that it wasn't mechanically mistreated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to bring back to life.  I've mounted the lathe and motor on a new table, and replaced the leather drive belt with a new one - the V-belt, although aged, still appears to be usable.  But there seems to be a problem...

The main spindle won't turn.  If I disengage the back gears and pull the locking pin, the cone pulley spins fairly freely, but I've been unable to get the spindle to move.  I also disengaged the change gear reversing gears, to no effect - it's the spindle itself that's really locked up solidly.  I feel as though it must just be dried lubricant on the bearings, because it was working when stored, but if so it's a lot more locked-up than I would have expected.  I tried mounting a 10-inch faceplate, and even with that I couldn't apply enough torque to break it free (I may be retired, but I'm not too feeble yet...).  I stopped short of putting a pipe wrench on it, but just barely...

Any other ideas about what I should try, before breaking down and disassembling the whole thing (which I've been trying to avoid)?  And once I get it moving, any recommendations for chemicals and methods to clean off the 50 years of crud?  I already have a rebuild kit (felts and such-like) and a kit of oils, but I'd like to get it cleaned up first.

(I'm still moving into the shop - please forgive all the boxes in the background...)


~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


mike allen
 

        my bad , I missed the last line where ya said ya have the felts & book

        animal

On 12/16/2020 6:56 PM, Rick wrote:
I’m with Mike. Pull the spindle, clean it up, replace the felt wicks.  While you are at it, I’d put in a serpentine belt, the grip so much better.


glenn brooks <brooks.glenn@...>
 

I recommend you do not dissemble your lathe.  I’ve gone through this process with several machines.  These are very simple machines, so Yes, easy enuf to pull the spindle.  But they are extremely high precision instruments.  Particularly one’s like yours with very little wear and tear.  So  BEWARE, if you disturb the factory torque on the spindle bearings, and/or accidentally mix up the shims that control the tightness of the spindle and the headstock bearings,(and you will if you pull the spindle bearings) you will have forever lost the factory settings that made this machine such a precision instrument. 

And you will be faced with days to weeks of tedious work learning how to regain proper .002” clearance between the spindle and the bearings- particularly if you have not done this before.  For a new lathe owner, with no machine repair experience, you might never get it back together properly.  (You want the spindle to spin freely, equally, and unencumbered  on all four edges of the headstock bearings, in a .001” to .002” bath of machine oil.)

Even SB, in their”How to Run A Lathe” book, cautioned against casually removing the headstock (spindle) bearings once properly set.  Rather, they recommended pulling the spindle with the bearings intact in the headstock. A rather more laborious process, but one guaranteed not to upset the perfect factory shimming these lathes display when new- which your lathe basically, is.

I think you would be much better off, as others recommend, FIRST flooding the headstock with solvent, and let the old dried oils flush out. Work it by hand, and repeat flushing, until it’s free. Flush and work the backgear pin the same way, until it too, is loose. 

I use simple pressurized brake cleaner in an off the shelf can to squirt into the bearings and backgear pin.  You’ll be surprised how quickly this stuff dissolves and flushes dried oil.

Once it’s operable, forget about dissembling until it really needs it: such as when the bearings actually wear out, 50 years from now. Until then, you won’t have a need to disassemble anything, and risk the highly likely chance you will loose what is still very nearly perfect factory settings.

Until then, just make chips and have fun learning how to use your dads machine!

PS, you can use grocery store liquid “Spray N Wash” (sold in 1 qt plastic green bottles) to cut the dried crud and dust off the outer surfaces.  Works so much better than WD 40 or diesel, because of the modern surfactants used in household cleaners these days.

Glenn B.


On Dec 16, 2020, at 7:02 PM, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:

        my bad , I missed the last line where ya said ya have the felts & book

        animal

On 12/16/2020 6:56 PM, Rick wrote:
I’m with Mike. Pull the spindle, clean it up, replace the felt wicks.  While you are at it, I’d put in a serpentine belt, the grip so much better.


Davis Johnson
 

Of course, he has no separate spindle bearings to remove with the spindle if this is a 1940 model C. It doesn't even have removable bearing caps. The oil reservoirs are below the bearing surfaces. Oil needs to be carried up from the reservoirs to those bearing surfaces by the wicks that act like giant felt tip markers with oil instead of ink.

My experience with a three year newer machine was that various felt wicks were varnished to the consistency of charred wood. Little lubrication was going to get through those. A better cared for machine that wasn't used so hard may have felts in better condition.

His lathe seems to be considerably better cared for than mine was. By all means start with what you suggest.

I would suction out whatever is possible, refill with solvent, repeat until you don't seem to be getting more crud out. Then let it sit, full of solvent, for a week or so and repeat again until it spins freely.

If the wicks aren't going to do their job of getting solvent or lube to the bearing surfaces I'd try applying it externally. The shim slots may be a good place to squirt, even if you don't remove the shims.

I suppose if the solvent approach appears to work well you might stop there.

I don't think that setting up the bearings is that twitchy, and removing the spindle is the only way to replace the felt. There are two shim packs to keep track of, and I would suggest noting which way around the thrust bearings come out. The bolt torques shouldn't have much if anything to do with cold bearing clearance - they clamp the cast iron down on the shims. The real gotcha is if the spindle is scored and you need it to go in so that the grooves in the spindle match those in the bearings. Hopefully he isn't in that state.

If the spindle really doesn't move at all I'd suspect that the back gear has it locked or there is something odd with the end gears.


On 12/16/20 11:07 PM, glenn brooks wrote:
I recommend you do not dissemble your lathe.  I’ve gone through this process with several machines.  These are very simple machines, so Yes, easy enuf to pull the spindle.  But they are extremely high precision instruments.  Particularly one’s like yours with very little wear and tear.  So  BEWARE, if you disturb the factory torque on the spindle bearings, and/or accidentally mix up the shims that control the tightness of the spindle and the headstock bearings,(and you will if you pull the spindle bearings) you will have forever lost the factory settings that made this machine such a precision instrument. 

And you will be faced with days to weeks of tedious work learning how to regain proper .002” clearance between the spindle and the bearings- particularly if you have not done this before.  For a new lathe owner, with no machine repair experience, you might never get it back together properly.  (You want the spindle to spin freely, equally, and unencumbered  on all four edges of the headstock bearings, in a .001” to .002” bath of machine oil.)

Even SB, in their”How to Run A Lathe” book, cautioned against casually removing the headstock (spindle) bearings once properly set.  Rather, they recommended pulling the spindle with the bearings intact in the headstock. A rather more laborious process, but one guaranteed not to upset the perfect factory shimming these lathes display when new- which your lathe basically, is.

I think you would be much better off, as others recommend, FIRST flooding the headstock with solvent, and let the old dried oils flush out. Work it by hand, and repeat flushing, until it’s free. Flush and work the backgear pin the same way, until it too, is loose. 

I use simple pressurized brake cleaner in an off the shelf can to squirt into the bearings and backgear pin.  You’ll be surprised how quickly this stuff dissolves and flushes dried oil.

Once it’s operable, forget about dissembling until it really needs it: such as when the bearings actually wear out, 50 years from now. Until then, you won’t have a need to disassemble anything, and risk the highly likely chance you will loose what is still very nearly perfect factory settings.

Until then, just make chips and have fun learning how to use your dads machine!

PS, you can use grocery store liquid “Spray N Wash” (sold in 1 qt plastic green bottles) to cut the dried crud and dust off the outer surfaces.  Works so much better than WD 40 or diesel, because of the modern surfactants used in household cleaners these days.

Glenn B.


On Dec 16, 2020, at 7:02 PM, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:

        my bad , I missed the last line where ya said ya have the felts & book

        animal

On 12/16/2020 6:56 PM, Rick wrote:
I’m with Mike. Pull the spindle, clean it up, replace the felt wicks.  While you are at it, I’d put in a serpentine belt, the grip so much better.


glenn brooks <brooks.glenn@...>
 

Hey Dave,  you’ll know more about this model than I. So I probably misspoke, as mine is older, a 1925 9” x48” actually, with the yellow metal split bearings front and rear on the headstock. All I saw in the photo where the caps, so assumed that his model year also used the split bearings. Anyways, always hate to see new guys with lathes start to tear things apart unless it’s really necessary.

Sounds like it wouldn’t be as critical removing the spindle with the design you describe. Maybe even necessary to rejuvenate the oil bath passages you mention. 

Cheers,
Glenn B. 




On Dec 16, 2020, at 9:14 PM, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:

Of course, he has no separate spindle bearings to remove with the spindle if this is a 1940 model C. It doesn't even have removable bearing caps. The oil reservoirs are below the bearing surfaces. Oil needs to be carried up from the reservoirs to those bearing surfaces by the wicks that act like giant felt tip markers with oil instead of ink.

My experience with a three year newer machine was that various felt wicks were varnished to the consistency of charred wood. Little lubrication was going to get through those. A better cared for machine that wasn't used so hard may have felts in better condition.

His lathe seems to be considerably better cared for than mine was. By all means start with what you suggest.

I would suction out whatever is possible, refill with solvent, repeat until you don't seem to be getting more crud out. Then let it sit, full of solvent, for a week or so and repeat again until it spins freely.

If the wicks aren't going to do their job of getting solvent or lube to the bearing surfaces I'd try applying it externally. The shim slots may be a good place to squirt, even if you don't remove the shims.

I suppose if the solvent approach appears to work well you might stop there.

I don't think that setting up the bearings is that twitchy, and removing the spindle is the only way to replace the felt. There are two shim packs to keep track of, and I would suggest noting which way around the thrust bearings come out. The bolt torques shouldn't have much if anything to do with cold bearing clearance - they clamp the cast iron down on the shims. The real gotcha is if the spindle is scored and you need it to go in so that the grooves in the spindle match those in the bearings. Hopefully he isn't in that state.

If the spindle really doesn't move at all I'd suspect that the back gear has it locked or there is something odd with the end gears.


On 12/16/20 11:07 PM, glenn brooks wrote:
I recommend you do not dissemble your lathe.  I’ve gone through this process with several machines.  These are very simple machines, so Yes, easy enuf to pull the spindle.  But they are extremely high precision instruments.  Particularly one’s like yours with very little wear and tear.  So  BEWARE, if you disturb the factory torque on the spindle bearings, and/or accidentally mix up the shims that control the tightness of the spindle and the headstock bearings,(and you will if you pull the spindle bearings) you will have forever lost the factory settings that made this machine such a precision instrument. 

And you will be faced with days to weeks of tedious work learning how to regain proper .002” clearance between the spindle and the bearings- particularly if you have not done this before.  For a new lathe owner, with no machine repair experience, you might never get it back together properly.  (You want the spindle to spin freely, equally, and unencumbered  on all four edges of the headstock bearings, in a .001” to .002” bath of machine oil.)

Even SB, in their”How to Run A Lathe” book, cautioned against casually removing the headstock (spindle) bearings once properly set.  Rather, they recommended pulling the spindle with the bearings intact in the headstock. A rather more laborious process, but one guaranteed not to upset the perfect factory shimming these lathes display when new- which your lathe basically, is.

I think you would be much better off, as others recommend, FIRST flooding the headstock with solvent, and let the old dried oils flush out. Work it by hand, and repeat flushing, until it’s free. Flush and work the backgear pin the same way, until it too, is loose. 

I use simple pressurized brake cleaner in an off the shelf can to squirt into the bearings and backgear pin.  You’ll be surprised how quickly this stuff dissolves and flushes dried oil.

Once it’s operable, forget about dissembling until it really needs it: such as when the bearings actually wear out, 50 years from now. Until then, you won’t have a need to disassemble anything, and risk the highly likely chance you will loose what is still very nearly perfect factory settings.

Until then, just make chips and have fun learning how to use your dads machine!

PS, you can use grocery store liquid “Spray N Wash” (sold in 1 qt plastic green bottles) to cut the dried crud and dust off the outer surfaces.  Works so much better than WD 40 or diesel, because of the modern surfactants used in household cleaners these days.

Glenn B.


On Dec 16, 2020, at 7:02 PM, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:

        my bad , I missed the last line where ya said ya have the felts & book

        animal

On 12/16/2020 6:56 PM, Rick wrote:
I’m with Mike. Pull the spindle, clean it up, replace the felt wicks.  While you are at it, I’d put in a serpentine belt, the grip so much better.


Davis Johnson
 

I needed to take another close look at the photograph from the original photograph and make sure I'm not making an ass of myself.

Your approach also has merit, your cautions are valid. The problem being an unknown - are the spindle bearings getting lubrication?

I think that with the "top oilers", where the oil cups are located on top of the bearings, there is less of an unknown. If the cups take periodic filling the oil is going into the bearings. With the "front oilers" where the oil cup feeds a reservoir below the spindle bearing and a wick to feed the bearing lubrication success may not be as obvious. Some lathes apparently let you know by leaking oil. I have not had that problem. I do know that the bearings on my 9A were run dry and damaged due to bad wicks (and missing springs). This may make me more of an advocate of spindle pulling than is warranted in general.

Mark, the original poster, describes not being able to rotate the spindle at all, in spite of doing all the obvious things to make sure nothing mechanical is holding it up. If the spindle is that varnished in place with dried lubricant it is well worth the time and effort to apply solvents and patience before anything else. Weather or not the spindle needs to come out.

On 12/17/20 1:25 AM, glenn brooks wrote:
Hey Dave,  you’ll know more about this model than I. So I probably misspoke, as mine is older, a 1925 9” x48” actually, with the yellow metal split bearings front and rear on the headstock. All I saw in the photo where the caps, so assumed that his model year also used the split bearings. Anyways, always hate to see new guys with lathes start to tear things apart unless it’s really necessary.

Sounds like it wouldn’t be as critical removing the spindle with the design you describe. Maybe even necessary to rejuvenate the oil bath passages you mention. 

Cheers,
Glenn B. 




On Dec 16, 2020, at 9:14 PM, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:

Of course, he has no separate spindle bearings to remove with the spindle if this is a 1940 model C. It doesn't even have removable bearing caps. The oil reservoirs are below the bearing surfaces. Oil needs to be carried up from the reservoirs to those bearing surfaces by the wicks that act like giant felt tip markers with oil instead of ink.

My experience with a three year newer machine was that various felt wicks were varnished to the consistency of charred wood. Little lubrication was going to get through those. A better cared for machine that wasn't used so hard may have felts in better condition.

His lathe seems to be considerably better cared for than mine was. By all means start with what you suggest.

I would suction out whatever is possible, refill with solvent, repeat until you don't seem to be getting more crud out. Then let it sit, full of solvent, for a week or so and repeat again until it spins freely.

If the wicks aren't going to do their job of getting solvent or lube to the bearing surfaces I'd try applying it externally. The shim slots may be a good place to squirt, even if you don't remove the shims.

I suppose if the solvent approach appears to work well you might stop there.

I don't think that setting up the bearings is that twitchy, and removing the spindle is the only way to replace the felt. There are two shim packs to keep track of, and I would suggest noting which way around the thrust bearings come out. The bolt torques shouldn't have much if anything to do with cold bearing clearance - they clamp the cast iron down on the shims. The real gotcha is if the spindle is scored and you need it to go in so that the grooves in the spindle match those in the bearings. Hopefully he isn't in that state.

If the spindle really doesn't move at all I'd suspect that the back gear has it locked or there is something odd with the end gears.


On 12/16/20 11:07 PM, glenn brooks wrote:
I recommend you do not dissemble your lathe.  I’ve gone through this process with several machines.  These are very simple machines, so Yes, easy enuf to pull the spindle.  But they are extremely high precision instruments.  Particularly one’s like yours with very little wear and tear.  So  BEWARE, if you disturb the factory torque on the spindle bearings, and/or accidentally mix up the shims that control the tightness of the spindle and the headstock bearings,(and you will if you pull the spindle bearings) you will have forever lost the factory settings that made this machine such a precision instrument. 

And you will be faced with days to weeks of tedious work learning how to regain proper .002” clearance between the spindle and the bearings- particularly if you have not done this before.  For a new lathe owner, with no machine repair experience, you might never get it back together properly.  (You want the spindle to spin freely, equally, and unencumbered  on all four edges of the headstock bearings, in a .001” to .002” bath of machine oil.)

Even SB, in their”How to Run A Lathe” book, cautioned against casually removing the headstock (spindle) bearings once properly set.  Rather, they recommended pulling the spindle with the bearings intact in the headstock. A rather more laborious process, but one guaranteed not to upset the perfect factory shimming these lathes display when new- which your lathe basically, is.

I think you would be much better off, as others recommend, FIRST flooding the headstock with solvent, and let the old dried oils flush out. Work it by hand, and repeat flushing, until it’s free. Flush and work the backgear pin the same way, until it too, is loose. 

I use simple pressurized brake cleaner in an off the shelf can to squirt into the bearings and backgear pin.  You’ll be surprised how quickly this stuff dissolves and flushes dried oil.

Once it’s operable, forget about dissembling until it really needs it: such as when the bearings actually wear out, 50 years from now. Until then, you won’t have a need to disassemble anything, and risk the highly likely chance you will loose what is still very nearly perfect factory settings.

Until then, just make chips and have fun learning how to use your dads machine!

PS, you can use grocery store liquid “Spray N Wash” (sold in 1 qt plastic green bottles) to cut the dried crud and dust off the outer surfaces.  Works so much better than WD 40 or diesel, because of the modern surfactants used in household cleaners these days.

Glenn B.


On Dec 16, 2020, at 7:02 PM, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:

        my bad , I missed the last line where ya said ya have the felts & book

        animal

On 12/16/2020 6:56 PM, Rick wrote:
I’m with Mike. Pull the spindle, clean it up, replace the felt wicks.  While you are at it, I’d put in a serpentine belt, the grip so much better.


Mark Moulding
 

Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I am sure that neither the back gears nor the change gear train is the problem, as I've disengaged both of those.  It's probably just as several have said that the oil has turned to varnish, and has thoroughly glued the spindle to its bearings.  Therefore, my first attempt will be to flush out all of the old gook with solvents - the brake cleaner that @glenn brooks recommended sounds like a pretty good call.

Assuming this gets the spindle turning, my next concern is those felts, which seem likely to be little petrified blocks at this point.  Since my lathe is as @Davis Johnson described with the oil cups actually below the level of the bearings, the bearings are solely dependent upon those felts for lubrication so I'm quite concerned that if I don't replace them, the bearings won't be getting any lubrication at all.  I believe the only way I can replace them is to remove the spindle.  I did read one post that said the solvent could rejuvenate the felts as well, but I don't know how I could tell anyway.

I've watched a few YouTube videos on disassembling the headstock, and in particular this one (by Halligan142, in case the link doesn't work) seemed to show that the spindle could be removed without affecting the shims - the only disturbance to the factory tolerances would be not getting the torques on the bearing clamp screws back exactly to the same place.  I'm hoping that if I keep everything clean, I can get quite close by indexing the screws the same number of turns when I re-tighten them; apparently, I don't need to remove them all the way.

I'm going to get the rest of my shop set up, so that I'll have all my tools available and at hand before tackling this, but the the meantime I'm certainly open to any further advice.  Thanks again!

~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


idaflies2
 

Crack the main bearing screws.

On December 16, 2020 at 8:58 PM Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:

My father bought this South Bend 9C, possibly new or with some demo deal (as he had almost no money at the time), around 1940.  I purchased the serial card from Grizzly, and it all matches up except, oddly, the length of the bed (the card says 3', but it's actually 3-1/2'); since the serial number is on the bed, it's hard to understand that mismatch.

Regardless, he used it for a while, then while I was growing up we'd make a few projects with me "helping" (I was around 10 to 15 at the time).  He died, far too young at 55, in 1980, and the lathe had a tarp thrown over it.  There it sat at my mother's house until she died about a year ago (at 96).  I cleaned out her house, and put it in a storage unit for the next year.  The unit was fairly near the waterfront in the San Francisco bay area, but when I stored it I drenched everything with BoeShield.  Now I've moved it up to my new (heated, dehumidified) shop in Oregon, and one of my first retirement projects is to get it working again.

Amazingly, there is essentially no rust anywhere.  The exposed iron and steel has darkened a bit, but appears to be in good shape.  Because I know its entire history, I'm certain that it wasn't mechanically mistreated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to bring back to life.  I've mounted the lathe and motor on a new table, and replaced the leather drive belt with a new one - the V-belt, although aged, still appears to be usable.  But there seems to be a problem...

The main spindle won't turn.  If I disengage the back gears and pull the locking pin, the cone pulley spins fairly freely, but I've been unable to get the spindle to move.  I also disengaged the change gear reversing gears, to no effect - it's the spindle itself that's really locked up solidly.  I feel as though it must just be dried lubricant on the bearings, because it was working when stored, but if so it's a lot more locked-up than I would have expected.  I tried mounting a 10-inch faceplate, and even with that I couldn't apply enough torque to break it free (I may be retired, but I'm not too feeble yet...).  I stopped short of putting a pipe wrench on it, but just barely...

Any other ideas about what I should try, before breaking down and disassembling the whole thing (which I've been trying to avoid)?  And once I get it moving, any recommendations for chemicals and methods to clean off the 50 years of crud?  I already have a rebuild kit (felts and such-like) and a kit of oils, but I'd like to get it cleaned up first.

(I'm still moving into the shop - please forgive all the boxes in the background...)


~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


 


Davis Johnson
 

Also loosen the takeup nut on the left end (opposite from the chuck end) of the spindle. It takes up slack in left/right movement of the spindle.

On 12/17/20 5:02 AM, idaflies2 wrote:

Crack the main bearing screws.

On December 16, 2020 at 8:58 PM Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:

My father bought this South Bend 9C, possibly new or with some demo deal (as he had almost no money at the time), around 1940.  I purchased the serial card from Grizzly, and it all matches up except, oddly, the length of the bed (the card says 3', but it's actually 3-1/2'); since the serial number is on the bed, it's hard to understand that mismatch.

Regardless, he used it for a while, then while I was growing up we'd make a few projects with me "helping" (I was around 10 to 15 at the time).  He died, far too young at 55, in 1980, and the lathe had a tarp thrown over it.  There it sat at my mother's house until she died about a year ago (at 96).  I cleaned out her house, and put it in a storage unit for the next year.  The unit was fairly near the waterfront in the San Francisco bay area, but when I stored it I drenched everything with BoeShield.  Now I've moved it up to my new (heated, dehumidified) shop in Oregon, and one of my first retirement projects is to get it working again.

Amazingly, there is essentially no rust anywhere.  The exposed iron and steel has darkened a bit, but appears to be in good shape.  Because I know its entire history, I'm certain that it wasn't mechanically mistreated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to bring back to life.  I've mounted the lathe and motor on a new table, and replaced the leather drive belt with a new one - the V-belt, although aged, still appears to be usable.  But there seems to be a problem...

The main spindle won't turn.  If I disengage the back gears and pull the locking pin, the cone pulley spins fairly freely, but I've been unable to get the spindle to move.  I also disengaged the change gear reversing gears, to no effect - it's the spindle itself that's really locked up solidly.  I feel as though it must just be dried lubricant on the bearings, because it was working when stored, but if so it's a lot more locked-up than I would have expected.  I tried mounting a 10-inch faceplate, and even with that I couldn't apply enough torque to break it free (I may be retired, but I'm not too feeble yet...).  I stopped short of putting a pipe wrench on it, but just barely...

Any other ideas about what I should try, before breaking down and disassembling the whole thing (which I've been trying to avoid)?  And once I get it moving, any recommendations for chemicals and methods to clean off the 50 years of crud?  I already have a rebuild kit (felts and such-like) and a kit of oils, but I'd like to get it cleaned up first.

(I'm still moving into the shop - please forgive all the boxes in the background...)


~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


 


Bill in OKC too
 

The solvent will probably renovate the felts, but not certainly. Buying this kit will replace the felts with new, and give you pretty specific instructions on how to get them installed: https://www.amazon.com/South-Bend-Lathe-Rebuild-Kit/dp/B01K4Z686K/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=south+bend+lathe&qid=1608200643&sprefix=south+bend+&sr=8-3

I bought the set for my Heavy 10L. Mine needs quite a bit of restoration, unlike yours. It was stored in a leaky barn for at least 5 years. This looks like the best way to get yours running without risking those like-new bearings of yours. I expect I'll be replacing my bearings once I get that far into it. Min is vintage 1941, and rode hard and put away wet, figuratively, and stored wet literally. 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)





On Thursday, December 17, 2020, 03:18:58 AM CST, Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:


Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I am sure that neither the back gears nor the change gear train is the problem, as I've disengaged both of those.  It's probably just as several have said that the oil has turned to varnish, and has thoroughly glued the spindle to its bearings.  Therefore, my first attempt will be to flush out all of the old gook with solvents - the brake cleaner that @glenn brooks recommended sounds like a pretty good call.

Assuming this gets the spindle turning, my next concern is those felts, which seem likely to be little petrified blocks at this point.  Since my lathe is as @Davis Johnson described with the oil cups actually below the level of the bearings, the bearings are solely dependent upon those felts for lubrication so I'm quite concerned that if I don't replace them, the bearings won't be getting any lubrication at all.  I believe the only way I can replace them is to remove the spindle.  I did read one post that said the solvent could rejuvenate the felts as well, but I don't know how I could tell anyway.

I've watched a few YouTube videos on disassembling the headstock, and in particular this one (by Halligan142, in case the link doesn't work) seemed to show that the spindle could be removed without affecting the shims - the only disturbance to the factory tolerances would be not getting the torques on the bearing clamp screws back exactly to the same place.  I'm hoping that if I keep everything clean, I can get quite close by indexing the screws the same number of turns when I re-tighten them; apparently, I don't need to remove them all the way.

I'm going to get the rest of my shop set up, so that I'll have all my tools available and at hand before tackling this, but the the meantime I'm certainly open to any further advice.  Thanks again!

~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


ww_big_al
 

You can get the same kit cheaper from Steve.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/South-Bend-Lathe-9-Model-C-Rebuild-Manual-Parts-Kit/152555682544?hash=item238506faf0:g:pHIAAOSw9NdXrcsF

 

I got mine from him. He has been selling these a long time. Of course, it won’t be prime shipping. I can highly recommend the book.

Al

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill in OKC too via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 5:35 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Getting my SB 9C working

 

The solvent will probably renovate the felts, but not certainly. Buying this kit will replace the felts with new, and give you pretty specific instructions on how to get them installed: https://www.amazon.com/South-Bend-Lathe-Rebuild-Kit/dp/B01K4Z686K/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=south+bend+lathe&qid=1608200643&sprefix=south+bend+&sr=8-3

 

I bought the set for my Heavy 10L. Mine needs quite a bit of restoration, unlike yours. It was stored in a leaky barn for at least 5 years. This looks like the best way to get yours running without risking those like-new bearings of yours. I expect I'll be replacing my bearings once I get that far into it. Min is vintage 1941, and rode hard and put away wet, figuratively, and stored wet literally. 

 

Bill in OKC

 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

 

 

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)

 

 

 

 

On Thursday, December 17, 2020, 03:18:58 AM CST, Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I am sure that neither the back gears nor the change gear train is the problem, as I've disengaged both of those.  It's probably just as several have said that the oil has turned to varnish, and has thoroughly glued the spindle to its bearings.  Therefore, my first attempt will be to flush out all of the old gook with solvents - the brake cleaner that @glenn brooks recommended sounds like a pretty good call.

Assuming this gets the spindle turning, my next concern is those felts, which seem likely to be little petrified blocks at this point.  Since my lathe is as @Davis Johnson described with the oil cups actually below the level of the bearings, the bearings are solely dependent upon those felts for lubrication so I'm quite concerned that if I don't replace them, the bearings won't be getting any lubrication at all.  I believe the only way I can replace them is to remove the spindle.  I did read one post that said the solvent could rejuvenate the felts as well, but I don't know how I could tell anyway.

I've watched a few YouTube videos on disassembling the headstock, and in particular this one (by Halligan142, in case the link doesn't work) seemed to show that the spindle could be removed without affecting the shims - the only disturbance to the factory tolerances would be not getting the torques on the bearing clamp screws back exactly to the same place.  I'm hoping that if I keep everything clean, I can get quite close by indexing the screws the same number of turns when I re-tighten them; apparently, I don't need to remove them all the way.

I'm going to get the rest of my shop set up, so that I'll have all my tools available and at hand before tackling this, but the the meantime I'm certainly open to any further advice.  Thanks again!

~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


Rick
 

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 07:47 AM, ww_big_al wrote:

You can get the same kit cheaper from Steve.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/South-Bend-Lathe-9-Model-C-Rebuild-Manual-Parts-Kit/152555682544?hash=item238506faf0:g:pHIAAOSw9NdXrcsF

 

I got mine from him. He has been selling these a long time. Of course, it won’t be prime shipping. I can highly recommend the book.

Al

I have bought his book/parts kit for both a SB9A and a SB13. They are excellent.  I also recommend the thrust bearing conversion that he sells. See link below.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Spindle-Take-up-Bearing-Kit-for-9-10k-South-Bend-Lathe-Upgrade-Takeup/152445466871?hash=item237e7538f7:g:kBEAAOSwawpXsQNz


david pennington
 

Mark,

My 9C is from 1948 and looks like yours. Its original owner was a G-E engineer, who bought it for his home shop. It did not come directly to me, but I am effectively its 2nd user. It shows some wear, but is otherwise in excellent shape.

Once you get the bearings loosened up using solvents as others have recommended, let me offer the following as food for thought.

While it is unorthodox--and was a white knuckle operation--I removed/replaced the spindle without loosening the bearing caps. Though it took care and was not done with any haste, it was surprisingly easy and was fully successful. My purpose was to install a serpentine belt.

All that said, I am surprised that your lathe's bearings are frozen up. Some years ago I took receipt of an 1892 Seneca Falls lathe that had sat unused for at least 50 years. It was sitting in the manufacturing area of a climate-controlled facility. The spindle rotated freely.

Best of luck,

Dave

David W. Pennington
Denver, Colorado
720-442-3744 - Please note the new number.


On Thursday, December 17, 2020, 02:19:03 AM MST, Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:


Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I am sure that neither the back gears nor the change gear train is the problem, as I've disengaged both of those.  It's probably just as several have said that the oil has turned to varnish, and has thoroughly glued the spindle to its bearings.  Therefore, my first attempt will be to flush out all of the old gook with solvents - the brake cleaner that @glenn brooks recommended sounds like a pretty good call.

Assuming this gets the spindle turning, my next concern is those felts, which seem likely to be little petrified blocks at this point.  Since my lathe is as @Davis Johnson described with the oil cups actually below the level of the bearings, the bearings are solely dependent upon those felts for lubrication so I'm quite concerned that if I don't replace them, the bearings won't be getting any lubrication at all.  I believe the only way I can replace them is to remove the spindle.  I did read one post that said the solvent could rejuvenate the felts as well, but I don't know how I could tell anyway.

I've watched a few YouTube videos on disassembling the headstock, and in particular this one (by Halligan142, in case the link doesn't work) seemed to show that the spindle could be removed without affecting the shims - the only disturbance to the factory tolerances would be not getting the torques on the bearing clamp screws back exactly to the same place.  I'm hoping that if I keep everything clean, I can get quite close by indexing the screws the same number of turns when I re-tighten them; apparently, I don't need to remove them all the way.

I'm going to get the rest of my shop set up, so that I'll have all my tools available and at hand before tackling this, but the the meantime I'm certainly open to any further advice.  Thanks again!

~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


RJ White
 




On Dec 16, 2020, at 6:22 PM, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:



        Mark , It's really not a big deal to pull the spindle . You should make sure that you have new felts for a machine that sat that long . You can get the felts in a set for the whole lathe & then some & a book that walks you

        through the process . You will be glad you , alot cheaper than buying a new spindle & headstock

        https://www.amazon.com/South-Bend-Lathe-Rebuild-Kit/dp/B01K4Z686K/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=south+bend+9c+Lathe+rebuild+manual&qid=1608171634&sr=8-11

        animal

On 12/16/2020 5:58 PM, Mark Moulding wrote:
My father bought this South Bend 9C, possibly new or with some demo deal (as he had almost no money at the time), around 1940.  I purchased the serial card from Grizzly, and it all matches up except, oddly, the length of the bed (the card says 3', but it's actually 3-1/2'); since the serial number is on the bed, it's hard to understand that mismatch.

Regardless, he used it for a while, then while I was growing up we'd make a few projects with me "helping" (I was around 10 to 15 at the time).  He died, far too young at 55, in 1980, and the lathe had a tarp thrown over it.  There it sat at my mother's house until she died about a year ago (at 96).  I cleaned out her house, and put it in a storage unit for the next year.  The unit was fairly near the waterfront in the San Francisco bay area, but when I stored it I drenched everything with BoeShield.  Now I've moved it up to my new (heated, dehumidified) shop in Oregon, and one of my first retirement projects is to get it working again.

Amazingly, there is essentially no rust anywhere.  The exposed iron and steel has darkened a bit, but appears to be in good shape.  Because I know its entire history, I'm certain that it wasn't mechanically mistreated, so it shouldn't be too difficult to bring back to life.  I've mounted the lathe and motor on a new table, and replaced the leather drive belt with a new one - the V-belt, although aged, still appears to be usable.  But there seems to be a problem...

The main spindle won't turn.  If I disengage the back gears and pull the locking pin, the cone pulley spins fairly freely, but I've been unable to get the spindle to move.  I also disengaged the change gear reversing gears, to no effect - it's the spindle itself that's really locked up solidly.  I feel as though it must just be dried lubricant on the bearings, because it was working when stored, but if so it's a lot more locked-up than I would have expected.  I tried mounting a 10-inch faceplate, and even with that I couldn't apply enough torque to break it free (I may be retired, but I'm not too feeble yet...).  I stopped short of putting a pipe wrench on it, but just barely...

Any other ideas about what I should try, before breaking down and disassembling the whole thing (which I've been trying to avoid)?  And once I get it moving, any recommendations for chemicals and methods to clean off the 50 years of crud?  I already have a rebuild kit (felts and such-like) and a kit of oils, but I'd like to get it cleaned up first.

(I'm still moving into the shop - please forgive all the boxes in the background...)


~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear


sblatheman
 

I would bet “a dime to a donut” that if you loosen the take-up nut, it will spin free.

Ted

On Dec 17, 2020, at 9:21 AM, david pennington via groups.io <davidwpennington@...> wrote:


Mark,

My 9C is from 1948 and looks like yours. Its original owner was a G-E engineer, who bought it for his home shop. It did not come directly to me, but I am effectively its 2nd user. It shows some wear, but is otherwise in excellent shape.

Once you get the bearings loosened up using solvents as others have recommended, let me offer the following as food for thought.

While it is unorthodox--and was a white knuckle operation--I removed/replaced the spindle without loosening the bearing caps. Though it took care and was not done with any haste, it was surprisingly easy and was fully successful. My purpose was to install a serpentine belt.

All that said, I am surprised that your lathe's bearings are frozen up. Some years ago I took receipt of an 1892 Seneca Falls lathe that had sat unused for at least 50 years. It was sitting in the manufacturing area of a climate-controlled facility. The spindle rotated freely.

Best of luck,

Dave

David W. Pennington
Denver, Colorado
720-442-3744 - Please note the new number.


On Thursday, December 17, 2020, 02:19:03 AM MST, Mark Moulding <mark@...> wrote:


Thanks for all the helpful advice.  I am sure that neither the back gears nor the change gear train is the problem, as I've disengaged both of those.  It's probably just as several have said that the oil has turned to varnish, and has thoroughly glued the spindle to its bearings.  Therefore, my first attempt will be to flush out all of the old gook with solvents - the brake cleaner that @glenn brooks recommended sounds like a pretty good call.

Assuming this gets the spindle turning, my next concern is those felts, which seem likely to be little petrified blocks at this point.  Since my lathe is as @Davis Johnson described with the oil cups actually below the level of the bearings, the bearings are solely dependent upon those felts for lubrication so I'm quite concerned that if I don't replace them, the bearings won't be getting any lubrication at all.  I believe the only way I can replace them is to remove the spindle.  I did read one post that said the solvent could rejuvenate the felts as well, but I don't know how I could tell anyway.

I've watched a few YouTube videos on disassembling the headstock, and in particular this one (by Halligan142, in case the link doesn't work) seemed to show that the spindle could be removed without affecting the shims - the only disturbance to the factory tolerances would be not getting the torques on the bearing clamp screws back exactly to the same place.  I'm hoping that if I keep everything clean, I can get quite close by indexing the screws the same number of turns when I re-tighten them; apparently, I don't need to remove them all the way.

I'm going to get the rest of my shop set up, so that I'll have all my tools available and at hand before tackling this, but the the meantime I'm certainly open to any further advice.  Thanks again!

~~

Mark Moulding
South Bend 9" Model C, Walker Turner drill press, Rong Fu table-top mill, "Mini" lathe, a whole bunch of Shopsmith gear