D1-4 chuck setup


Colin Fera
 

I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


Colin Fera
 

Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


Colin Fera
 

3 pins only.  This is a D1-4 spindle. D1-5 and D1-6 are 6 pin spindles. This seems like the common camlock spindle for lathes in the 10-13 inch range including the heavy 10 when that has a camlock.  It definitely does lock up. Removing the chuck after its locked requires a tap with a mallet. 

I just spoke to my mechanical engineer friend and he is suggesting I take the cams out of the spindle and blow out and clean the camlock holes. Basically saying that chips and maybe Chinese grinding dust could get in there and take up some of the torque applied to the cams so that when you think you have them close to evenly applied torque your actually not very close and so your pulling unevenly on the chuck.

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:00 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


Jon Holmes <j_sholmes@...>
 

Sounds like it might be staying on the taper only and not bottoming out on the flat registers ?

On 22 Mar 2020, at 10:16 AM, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

3 pins only.  This is a D1-4 spindle. D1-5 and D1-6 are 6 pin spindles. This seems like the common camlock spindle for lathes in the 10-13 inch range including the heavy 10 when that has a camlock.  It definitely does lock up. Removing the chuck after its locked requires a tap with a mallet. 

I just spoke to my mechanical engineer friend and he is suggesting I take the cams out of the spindle and blow out and clean the camlock holes. Basically saying that chips and maybe Chinese grinding dust could get in there and take up some of the torque applied to the cams so that when you think you have them close to evenly applied torque your actually not very close and so your pulling unevenly on the chuck.

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:00 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  







ww_big_al
 

If you want, Adam Booth talks about the cam locks, checking and setting. It starts at 22 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsPuJ4RizLs

Finishes in part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ERnlgEUr4

Al

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Holmes
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 7:26 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] D1-4 chuck setup

 

Sounds like it might be staying on the taper only and not bottoming out on the flat registers ?

 

On 22 Mar 2020, at 10:16 AM, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

3 pins only.  This is a D1-4 spindle. D1-5 and D1-6 are 6 pin spindles. This seems like the common camlock spindle for lathes in the 10-13 inch range including the heavy 10 when that has a camlock.  It definitely does lock up. Removing the chuck after its locked requires a tap with a mallet. 

 

I just spoke to my mechanical engineer friend and he is suggesting I take the cams out of the spindle and blow out and clean the camlock holes. Basically saying that chips and maybe Chinese grinding dust could get in there and take up some of the torque applied to the cams so that when you think you have them close to evenly applied torque your actually not very close and so your pulling unevenly on the chuck.

 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:00 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

 

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

 

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

 

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

 

Eddie

 

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 

 

 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

 

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

 

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

 

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

 

Eddie

 

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

 

I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  

 

 

 

 

 

 


Colin Fera
 

Thanks for the advice and videos. This has been resolved. I pulled the cams out of the spindle, there were allot of burs on them. This lathe came with a collet closer where there was a sleeve to mount the actual collet allowing the cam holes to fill with chips and swarf. I suspect that the previous owner crushed the chips with the cams leading to significant burs on the cams. I de-burred the cams and got about a tablespoon of crushed up chips and dust out of the holes. Re assembled and torqued the chuck in with a torque wrench and now the chuck face is true within 3-4 tenths and the chuck body which doesn't even matter is true within a couple thou. I don't have the patience to try and measure the chuck jaws relative to the chuck face (I guess that would be perpendicularity?). I am pretty happy with tenths from the chuck face (and this was the first mount) for such a cheap setup. I paid about 50 cents per pound for this stuff, I have no illusions of being able to do work for NASA. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 4:42 PM ww_big_al <arknack@...> wrote:

If you want, Adam Booth talks about the cam locks, checking and setting. It starts at 22 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsPuJ4RizLs

Finishes in part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ERnlgEUr4

Al

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Holmes
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 7:26 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] D1-4 chuck setup

 

Sounds like it might be staying on the taper only and not bottoming out on the flat registers ?

 

On 22 Mar 2020, at 10:16 AM, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

3 pins only.  This is a D1-4 spindle. D1-5 and D1-6 are 6 pin spindles. This seems like the common camlock spindle for lathes in the 10-13 inch range including the heavy 10 when that has a camlock.  It definitely does lock up. Removing the chuck after its locked requires a tap with a mallet. 

 

I just spoke to my mechanical engineer friend and he is suggesting I take the cams out of the spindle and blow out and clean the camlock holes. Basically saying that chips and maybe Chinese grinding dust could get in there and take up some of the torque applied to the cams so that when you think you have them close to evenly applied torque your actually not very close and so your pulling unevenly on the chuck.

 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:00 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

 

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

 

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

 

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

 

Eddie

 

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 

 

 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

 

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

 

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

 

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

 

Eddie

 

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

 

I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  

 

 

 

 

 

 


comstock_friend
 

That why you use a donut, the D1-4's equivalent of a thread protector.

Photo without the donut (and with my knock out bar).

Photo with, I had to cut down from what I received as the nose piece didn't fit.

John


Payson
 

I didn't know there were nose protectors for cam-locks.

PG


Boris Gaspar
 

G'day from Sydney. 

Neither did I know that such a thing existed.... did you make it yourself? 

Here's a picture of my spindle nose cone with 5C collet adapter and collet. 

This lathe is a badged Hercus 260 but it has the same configuration as the South Bend GS 26-075 Hercus manufactured them for SB. It has the larger spindle bore and angled teeth on the bullgear and back gears. 

On Tue, 24 Mar. 2020, 08:10 Payson, <egreene104@...> wrote:
I didn't know there were nose protectors for cam-locks.

PG


comstock_friend
 
Edited

I heard the term 'donut' for the D1 series nose protectors. I found one on ebay (said it was a 'back plate' but obviously not). Looked like this before I removed a bit more metal from its front.

John


Colin Fera
 

I work in a research facility that has a couple of machine shops in some of the out buildings, though I am not a machinist. There is an odd; short bed but fairly large swing maybe 17x33, probably mid 80's monarch lathe that has something that looks like this but is actually a collet holder. I think its D1-6.


On Tue, Mar 24, 2020 at 4:06 PM comstock_friend <jfriend314@...> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]

I heard the term 'donut' for the D1 series nose protectors. I found one on ebay (said it was a 'back plate' but obviously not). Looked like this before I removed a bit more metal from its front.

John


sblatheman
 

That is called a “step chuck closer”(sometimes called a “pot chuck closer”

Ted

On Mar 24, 2020, at 7:06 PM, comstock_friend <jfriend314@...> wrote:



[Edited Message Follows]

I heard the term 'donut' for the D1 series nose protectors. I found one on ebay (said it was a 'back plate' but obviously not). Looked like this before I removed a bit more metal from its front.

John
<2018-04-21 Ebay D1-4 LATHE CHUCK MOUNT APPROX 4.5 Inch OD 01.jpg>
<2018-04-21 Ebay D1-4 LATHE CHUCK MOUNT APPROX 4.5 Inch OD 02.jpg>
<2018-04-21 Ebay D1-4 LATHE CHUCK MOUNT APPROX 4.5 Inch OD 03.jpg>