Leveling a SB9; Again.


jdinan@...
 

I'm about to level and align my 9A.

According to Bulletin H-3, one places a precision level on the tops of the bed ways to carry out the leveling process.

But in a long-ago message, Turk cautioned that for SB lathes manufactured during and after WWII the tops of the ways were produced early in the manufacturing process and that these surfaces were not reliable for leveling. 

What is the latest thinking on this issue?





Jim B. <btdtrf@...>
 

I remember a post from Ted, Latheman2@AOL.com, who worked at SB, stating that SB took pains to make the tops of the ways both flat and true to the ways.
Jim B
Pessimist sees the glass half empty.
Optimist sees the glass half full.
Engineer sees the glass twice as large as needed.

Sent from my RAZR.


soupy1951ca
 

This comes up often. In my opinion, making sure there in no TWIST is far more important. A lathe on a ship would never be level but could certainly be mounted with no twist. My lathe has no twist but is far from level and I have no trouble with accuracy. Just my humble opinion of course.

Mike from Canada


On Tuesday, October 21, 2014, jdinan@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:
 

I'm about to level and align my 9A.


According to Bulletin H-3, one places a precision level on the tops of the bed ways to carry out the leveling process.

But in a long-ago message, Turk cautioned that for SB lathes manufactured during and after WWII the tops of the ways were produced early in the manufacturing process and that these surfaces were not reliable for leveling. 

What is the latest thinking on this issue?






--


Jack Dinan <jdinan@...>
 

Agreed that removing the twist is the goal and that it is an operation independent of leveling. And yet every instruction I've seen, including those from SB, has one begin the twist-removal process by leveling. Hmm.


This comes up often. In my opinion, making sure there in no TWIST is far more important. A lathe on a ship would never be level but could certainly be mounted with no twist. My lathe has no twist but is far from level and I have no trouble with accuracy. Just my humble opinion of course.

Mike from Canada

On Tuesday, October 21, 2014, <mailto:jdinan@cox.net>jdinan@cox.net [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <<mailto:SOUTHBENDLATHE@yahoogroups.com>SOUTHBENDLATHE@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



I'm about to level and align my 9A.


According to Bulletin H-3, one places a precision level on the tops of the bed ways to carry out the leveling process.

But in a long-ago message, Turk cautioned that for SB lathes manufactured during and after WWII the tops of the ways were produced early in the manufacturing process and that these surfaces were not reliable for leveling.

What is the latest thinking on this issue?






--
Sent from Gmail Mobile


sblatheman
 

Good memory. 

Ted

On Oct 21, 2014, at 9:55 PM, "'Jim B.' btdtrf@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:

 

I remember a post from Ted, Latheman2@..., who worked at SB, stating that SB took pains to make the tops of the ways both flat and true to the ways.
Jim B
Pessimist sees the glass half empty.
Optimist sees the glass half full.
Engineer sees the glass twice as large as needed.

Sent from my RAZR.


william twombley
 

I used a matched  pair of "v" blocks on the  "v" ways and a Starrett 199 master level on them. I leveled it out to 0 "ticks" on both ends and center.  The saddle is one tick high on the apron side and one tick high on the tailstock side.  the bed is dead level on every bearing surface. The Connelly book is absolutely worth it's weight in gold!!!!

Surprising how little torque on the pedestal fastening bolts is needed to get the level in... the final adjustment is literally a twelfth turn of the mounting hardware combo. 

I cut a test bar between centers and the taper was between 3 or 4 tenths.  Better than my eyes can see on my mic...way better than my best hopes.

Used Gorilla glue to bond the scarfed leather belt.  First attempt failed ! I think because i didn't dampen the scarf surfaces.  Second attempt successful.  Foamed up real good and seems to be damn strong.

I put a Torrington bearing thrust bearing in the place of the phenolic washer in the headstock. and that really is sweet.  The measured spindle bearing  clearance came out to .0016" and precisely .001" thrust. 

Now If I had a little bigger genset than the 2000 watt Yamaha, I could really get busy. The lathe runs but there is just not enough juice to make a decent cut more than 20 thou.  That is the next project. 

I'm really happy to have my lathe back in good order.  I'm sure glad I resisted the urge to buy a chinese import. 

I still need to slot the "C" leadscrew for  the "B"style apron.  I still thinking about how to set that up.  The bridge port at work has 28 inches of travel. So, I'm thinking of 3 "v"  blocks and  clamps lined up using  a ground 36 inch straight edge.  First Indicate the straight edge on the table  and clamp it. Then set up the blocks and clamp them and the leadscrew. I am thinking of using and endmill and shifting the center block as needed to do the overlap section.  Or would cutting the slot with a woodruff key cutter be simpler?

Thanks for the advice all along the way!!!

mike


Jack Dinan <jdinan@...>
 

very helpful.



I used a matched pair of "v" blocks on the "v" ways and a Starrett 199 master level on them. I leveled it out to 0 "ticks" on both ends and center. The saddle is one tick high on the apron side and one tick high on the tailstock side. the bed is dead level on every bearing surface. The Connelly book is absolutely worth it's weight in gold!!!!

Surprising how little torque on the pedestal fastening bolts is needed to get the level in... the final adjustment is literally a twelfth turn of the mounting hardware combo.

I cut a test bar between centers and the taper was between 3 or 4 tenths. Better than my eyes can see on my mic...way better than my best hopes.

Used Gorilla glue to bond the scarfed leather belt. First attempt failed ! I think because i didn't dampen the scarf surfaces. Second attempt successful. Foamed up real good and seems to be damn strong.

I put a Torrington bearing thrust bearing in the place of the phenolic washer in the headstock. and that really is sweet. The measured spindle bearing clearance came out to .0016" and precisely .001" thrust.

Now If I had a little bigger genset than the 2000 watt Yamaha, I could really get busy. The lathe runs but there is just not enough juice to make a decent cut more than 20 thou. That is the next project.

I'm really happy to have my lathe back in good order. I'm sure glad I resisted the urge to buy a chinese import.

I still need to slot the "C" leadscrew for the "B"style apron. I still thinking about how to set that up. The bridge port at work has 28 inches of travel. So, I'm thinking of 3 "v" blocks and clamps lined up using a ground 36 inch straight edge. First Indicate the straight edge on the table and clamp it. Then set up the blocks and clamp them and the leadscrew. I am thinking of using and endmill and shifting the center block as needed to do the overlap section. Or would cutting the slot with a woodruff key cutter be simpler?

Thanks for the advice all along the way!!!

mike


oscar kern <kernbigo@...>
 

cutting a piece between centers proved noting you have to cut a piece off the chuck alone to see if your leveling really worked 


On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:55 AM, "Jack Dinan jdinan@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" wrote:


 
> very helpful.

>
>I used a matched pair of "v" blocks on the "v" ways and a Starrett
>199 master level on them. I leveled it out to 0 "ticks" on both ends
>and center. The saddle is one tick high on the apron side and one
>tick high on the tailstock side. the bed is dead level on every
>bearing surface. The Connelly book is absolutely worth it's weight
>in gold!!!!
>
>Surprising how little torque on the pedestal fastening bolts is
>needed to get the level in... the final adjustment is literally a
>twelfth turn of the mounting hardware combo.
>
>I cut a test bar between centers and the taper was between 3 or 4
>tenths. Better than my eyes can see on my mic...way better than my
>best hopes.
>
>Used Gorilla glue to bond the scarfed leather belt. First attempt
>failed ! I think because i didn't dampen the scarf surfaces. Second
>attempt successful. Foamed up real good and seems to be damn strong.
>
>I put a Torrington bearing thrust bearing in the place of the
>phenolic washer in the headstock. and that really is sweet. The
>measured spindle bearing clearance came out to .0016" and precisely
>.001" thrust.
>
>Now If I had a little bigger genset than the 2000 watt Yamaha, I
>could really get busy. The lathe runs but there is just not enough
>juice to make a decent cut more than 20 thou. That is the next
>project.
>
>I'm really happy to have my lathe back in good order. I'm sure glad
>I resisted the urge to buy a chinese import.
>
>I still need to slot the "C" leadscrew for the "B"style apron. I
>still thinking about how to set that up. The bridge port at work
>has 28 inches of travel. So, I'm thinking of 3 "v" blocks and
> clamps lined up using a ground 36 inch straight edge. First
>Indicate the straight edge on the table and clamp it. Then set up
>the blocks and clamp them and the leadscrew. I am thinking of using
>and endmill and shifting the center block as needed to do the
>overlap section. Or would cutting the slot with a woodruff key
>cutter be simpler?
>
>Thanks for the advice all along the way!!!
>
>mike
>
>




carbure2003
 


eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

Has nobody thought of just clamping the level to the saddle, cross slide or toolpost and then cranking the saddle end to end?  Since the tailstock is on separate slideways, do that also, and the differential will pick up alignment affecting wear on the saddle ways, usually near the chuck.
 
And in response to another item, you don't need to take a cut to check for parallel.  Make and keep a cylindrical bar with acurate centres.  Use a DTI on it both between centres and in the chuck.  If you have 2, a shortish one and a longish one (wrt the bed length) you can spot the diference between an off centre tailstock which you can adjust out by slewing that, and a twisted bed.  If your cylinder appears +ve or -ve barrel shaped, you have bed wear.  (Or a seriously off centre height DTI!)
 
Eddie

From: "'guycad@...' guycad@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Re: Leveling a SB9; Again.
 
In my case, I machined a block of steel that fits both inverted V ways. The block was then hand scraped to have a perfect match with the ways, with the top surface  scraped flat,  When inverting the block, I have the same level readings.  (would be the same thing as with 2 matched V blocks.
 
No, I am not crazy, I machined this block in order to monitor progress when I re-scraped the beds on my lathes.  (dual monitoring with master precision straight edge and master precision level)  With this block, I can take readings at both ends and ensure I have no twist on the bed.  Later I levelled other SB lathes with it in our model engineering club.
 
Additional check after:   Test bar MT3 in the  spindle nose.  I also have a 20" long scrap hydraulic ram with chromed and ground surface that I modified in order to use it as test bar. (tailstock alignment, parallelism error on the full carriage travel length)
 
A 62 year old machine performs better than a brand new taiwan/chienese lathe!!!!! Unfortunately I will have to dismantle it...... I have to paint it
 
Guy
 
 
 
---------- Original Message ----------From: "oscar kern kernbigo@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" To: "SOUTHBENDLATHE@..." Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Re: Leveling a SB9; Again.Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 16:36:09 -0700
 
cutting a piece between centers proved noting you have to cut a p iece off the chuck alone to see if your leveling really worked 

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:55 AM, "Jack Dinan jdinan@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" wrote:
 
> very helpful.>>I used a matched pair of "v" blocks on the "v" ways and a Starrett >199 master level on them. I leveled it out to 0 "ticks" on both ends >and center. The saddle is one tick high on the apron side and one >tick high on the tailstock side. the bed is dead level on every >bearing surface. The Connelly book is absolutely worth it's weight >in gold!!!!>>Surprising how little torque on the pedestal fastening bolts is >needed to get the level in... the final adjustment is literally a >twelfth turn of the mounting hardware combo.>>I cut a test bar between centers and the taper was between 3 or 4 >tenths. Better than my eyes can see on my mic...way better than my >best hopes.>>Used Gorilla glue to bond the scarfed leather belt. First attempt >failed ! I think because i didn't dampen the scarf surfaces. Second >attempt successful. Foamed up real good and seems to be damn strong.>>I put a Torrington bearing thrust bearing in the place of the >phenolic washer in the headstock. and that really is sweet. The >measured spindle bearing clearance came out to .0016" and precisely >.001" thrust.>>Now If I had a little bigger genset than the 2000 watt Yamaha, I >could really get busy. The lathe runs but there is just not enough >juice to make a decent cut more than 20 thou. That is the next >project.>>I'm really happy to have my lathe back in good order. I'm sure glad >I resisted the urge to buy a chinese import.>>I still need to slot the "C" leadscrew for the "B"style apron. I >still thinking about how to set that up. The bridge port at work >has 28 inches of travel. So, I'm thinking of 3 "v" blocks and > clamps lined up using a ground 36 inch straight edge. First >Indicate the straight edge on the table and clamp it. Then set up >the blocks and clamp them and the leadscrew. I am thinking of using >and endmill and shifting the center block as needed to do the >overlap section. Or would cutting the slot with a woodruff key >cutter be simpler?>>Thanks for the advice all along the way!!!>>mike>>
 
 
 
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"Unique" Proven Method To Control Blood Sugar In 3 Weeks. Watch Video.
DiabetesProtocol.com


Davis Johnson
 

Absolutely correct thinking.

The idea behind the V blocks or a special fixture to sit on the sides of the V ways is to support the level on the same surface that supports the saddle. That, and on my wartime 9A at the least, the tops of the Vs may not be in the best condition.

The saddle is a perfect fixture to sit on the surfaces that support the saddle. If you remove the cross slide any of the horizontal surfaces of the cross slide dovetail are available for setting the level. Removing the cross slide on a 9 with no taper attachment is trivial, just don't loose the gib!

On 10/23/2014 3:49 AM, Edward Draper eddie.draper@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] wrote:
 
Has nobody thought of just clamping the level to the saddle, cross slide or toolpost and then cranking the saddle end to end?  Since the tailstock is on separate slideways, do that also, and the differential will pick up alignment affecting wear on the saddle ways, usually near the chuck.
 
And in response to another item, you don't need to take a cut to check for parallel.  Make and keep a cylindrical bar with acurate centres.  Use a DTI on it both between centres and in the chuck.  If you have 2, a shortish one and a longish one (wrt the bed length) you can spot the diference between an off centre tailstock which you can adjust out by slewing that, and a twisted bed.  If your cylinder appears +ve or -ve barrel shaped, you have bed wear.  (Or a seriously off centre height DTI!)
 
Eddie

From: "'guycad@...' guycad@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2014 2:12 AM
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Re: Leveling a SB9; Again.
 
In my case, I machined a block of steel that fits both inverted V ways. The block was then hand scraped to have a perfect match with the ways, with the top surface  scraped flat,  When inverting the block, I have the same level readings.  (would be the same thing as with 2 matched V blocks.
 
No, I am not crazy, I machined this block in order to monitor progress when I re-scraped the beds on my lathes.  (dual monitoring with master precision straight edge and master precision level)  With this block, I can take readings at both ends and ensure I have no twist on the bed.  Later I levelled other SB lathes with it in our model engineering club.
 
Additional check after:   Test bar MT3 in the  spindle nose.  I also have a 20" long scrap hydraulic ram with chromed and ground surface that I modified in order to use it as test bar. (tailstock alignment, parallelism error on the full carriage travel length)
 
A 62 year old machine performs better than a brand new taiwan/chienese lathe!!!!! Unfortunately I will have to dismantle it...... I have to paint it
 
Guy
 
 
 
---------- Original Message ----------From: "oscar kern kernbigo@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" To: "SOUTHBENDLATHE@..." Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Re: Leveling a SB9; Again.Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2014 16:36:09 -0700
 
cutting a piece between centers proved noting you have to cut a p iece off the chuck alone to see if your leveling really worked 

On Wednesday, October 22, 2014 11:55 AM, "Jack Dinan jdinan@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" wrote:
 
> very helpful.>>I used a matched pair of "v" blocks on the "v" ways and a Starrett >199 master level on them. I leveled it out to 0 "ticks" on both ends >and center. The saddle is one tick high on the apron side and one >tick high on the tailstock side. the bed is dead level on every >bearing surface. The Connelly book is absolutely worth it's weight >in gold!!!!>>Surprising how little torque on the pedestal fastening bolts is >needed to get the level in... the final adjustment is literally a >twelfth turn of the mounting hardware combo.>>I cut a test bar between centers and the taper was between 3 or 4 >tenths. Better than my eyes can see on my mic...way better than my >best hopes.>>Used Gorilla glue to bond the scarfed leather belt. First attempt >failed ! I think because i didn't dampen the scarf surfaces. Second >attempt successful. Foamed up real good and seems to be damn strong.>>I put a Torrington bearing thrust bearing in the place of the >phenolic washer in the headstock. and that really is sweet. The >measured spindle bearing clearance came out to .0016" and precisely >.001" thrust.>>Now If I had a little bigger genset than the 2000 watt Yamaha, I >could really get busy. The lathe runs but there is just not enough >juice to make a decent cut more than 20 thou. That is the next >project.>>I'm really happy to have my lathe back in good order. I'm sure glad >I resisted the urge to buy a chinese import.>>I still need to slot the "C" leadscrew for the "B"style apron. I >still thinking about how to set that up. The bridge port at work >has 28 inches of travel. So, I'm thinking of 3 "v" blocks and > clamps lined up using a ground 36 inch straight edge. First >Indicate the straight edge on the table and clamp it. Then set up >the blocks and clamp them and the leadscrew. I am thinking of using >and endmill and shifting the center block as needed to do the >overlap section. Or would cutting the slot with a woodruff key >cutter be simpler?>>Thanks for the advice all along the way!!!>>mike>>
 
 
 
____________________________________________________________Odd Trick Fights Diabetes
"Unique" Proven Method To Control Blood Sugar In 3 Weeks. Watch Video.
DiabetesProtocol.com


Paul Alciatore
 

Frankly, I have always wondered why it is not done that way. I mean, the objective of leveling is to make the motion of the carriage and cross slide as close to parallel to the lathe axis as possible. So why not use it in that process?