what is it?


william twombley
 

I think I have a south bend 9C  (sn 88692) that I am finally doing  a bit of refurbing after 30 years or so.  The 4 1/2' bed was severely worn in the headstock area and I stumbles across a really nice 3 1/2 ' bed and I am "franken lathing" it. Taking the best and refitting the rest.

The tail stock is really clean and shows very minor wear on the bearing surfaces  at first impression. 
The saddle is not showing severe wear  or scoring so it may be refittable again... TBD.  The numbers will tell the answer, I guess

I have dial indicators, DTIs,  a 10" Starrett level and some minimal straight edges and assorted v blocks to begin with... plus the Connelly book as a reference. I also have the rebuild book, seal felts kit, and special tools and spanner kit  for a 9C.

The odd thing is the headstock has the oilers on the top rather than the sides. Is that a very early thirties unit? That is my most pressing question as I am doing the headstock first. Does this present any special issues. I actually like the top oilers because they a can be replaced with the oilers like on a friends late 20s heavy 9. I like being able to see what the heck is going on with the lubricant situation.

mike


john kling
 

The holes in the bed to support the lead screw (headstock end) seem to be spaced differently on some of the 415 than on later lathes.


From: Jim B.
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 1, 2014 1:22 PM
Subject: RE: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] what is it?

 
Serial #88692 was shipped in March of 1939.
 
Yes early Workshop 9” lathes had the oilers in the top of the heads stock journals. They are called top oilers, the catalogue # should be 415 and technically, if yours is a top oiler it is NOT a Model C. It’s a change gear 9” Workshop lathe.
In 1939 SB revised the Workshop line. They moved the oilers to the side adding an improved wick system and introduced the Model A, B, and C terminology.
However I would have thought a lathe produced in March of 1939 would have had side oilers.
I wonder if the heads stock is original?
 
Adding the oil reservoirs to the head stock is a very good approach.
 
Jim B.

From: SOUTHBENDLATHE@... [mailto: SOUTHBENDLATHE@... ] On Behalf Of twombo@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 12:19 PM
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Subject: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] what is it?
 
 
I think I have a south bend 9C  (sn 88692) that I am finally doing  a bit of refurbing after 30 years or so.  The 4 1/2' bed was severely worn in the headstock area and I stumbles across a really nice 3 1/2 ' bed and I am "franken lathing" it. Taking the best and refitting the rest.

The tail stock is really clean and shows very minor wear on the bearing surfaces  at first impression. 
The saddle is not showing severe wear  or scoring so it may be refittable again... TB D.   The numbers will tell the answer, I guess

I have dial indicators, DTIs,  a 10" Starrett level and some minimal straight edges and assorted v blocks to begin with... plus the Connelly book as a reference. I also have the rebuild book, seal felts kit, and special tools and spanner kit  for a 9C.

The odd thing is the headstock has the oilers on the top rather than the sides. Is that a very early thirties unit? That is my most pressing question as I am doing the headstock first. Does this present any special issues. I actually like the top oilers because they a can be replaced with the oilers like on a friends late 20s heavy 9. I like being able to see what the heck is going on with the lubricant situation.

mike



Jim B. <btdtrf@...>
 

Serial #88692 was shipped in March of 1939.

 

Yes early Workshop 9” lathes had the oilers in the top of the heads stock journals. They are called top oilers, the catalogue # should be 415 and technically, if yours is a top oiler it is NOT a Model C. It’s a change gear 9” Workshop lathe.

In 1939 SB revised the Workshop line. They moved the oilers to the side adding an improved wick system and introduced the Model A, B, and C terminology.

However I would have thought a lathe produced in March of 1939 would have had side oilers.

I wonder if the heads stock is original?

 

Adding the oil reservoirs to the head stock is a very good approach.

 

Jim B.


From: SOUTHBENDLATHE@... [mailto:SOUTHBENDLATHE@...] On Behalf Of twombo@...
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 12:19 PM
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Subject: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] what is it?

 

 

I think I have a south bend 9C  (sn 88692) that I am finally doing  a bit of refurbing after 30 years or so.  The 4 1/2' bed was severely worn in the headstock area and I stumbles across a really nice 3 1/2 ' bed and I am "franken lathing" it. Taking the best and refitting the rest.

The tail stock is really clean and shows very minor wear on the bearing surfaces  at first impression. 
The saddle is not showing severe wear  or scoring so it may be refittable again... TBD.  The numbers will tell the answer, I guess

I have dial indicators, DTIs,  a 10" Starrett level and some minimal straight edges and assorted v blocks to begin with... plus the Connelly book as a reference. I also have the rebuild book, seal felts kit, and special tools and spanner kit  for a 9C.

The odd thing is the headstock has the oilers on the top rather than the sides. Is that a very early thirties unit? That is my most pressing question as I am doing the headstock first. Does this present any special issues. I actually like the top oilers because they a can be replaced with the oilers like on a friends late 20s heavy 9. I like being able to see what the heck is going on with the lubricant situation.

mike


william twombley
 

Thanks guys!! Very impressive!  I'm still gathering sources of info on these old guys.  There is lots of data to find on production data and variations, but lots of searching needed to find it!

I'm new to this group and have not found all the nuggets of source data. Is there a list of links  of any sort. Or better a well researched book  on the subject of SBL production?
again thanks.

I know it is blasphemy, but I have  a pint of Hemi orange POR 15 engine paint. That should spice up my shop over the machine grey, dontcha think??

Well, it's off on an data expedition.

A frriend has what he calls a 1928 "heavy 9"... single tumbler, 5 or 6 way turret. He found the 42 inch bed for me it is 116xxx sn range... looks like within a year of so, "40" or "41" by sbwells' listing. Minimal wear it looks like.  Scraping or frosting is really is very simple, but the frosting (chipping?) is clearly visible, even in poor light even in the headstock area. I understand depression era machines were utilitarian rather than the real pretty artsy fartsy stuff. Simple and utilitarian... the best product for the lowest labor cost?

I'll watch that note on QCGB  on spacing. I am toying with the thought of a QCGB... not essential but certainly a nice addition. That and a powered apron is very tempting.

thanks!!

mike


Flash Gordon
 

Mike,

Welcome to the group.

The big question from me … does the saddle actually fit the ways on the new bed? Usually they have to be hand fitted.

Also if the bed is worn the saddle is worn even
more. It is softer. Cast iron vs. steel. Yet yours is not???

Paint, we can ship that part.

Head stock, top oiler in 39’; that’s
interesting. (not a "C" but a change gear
lathe... "C" came later), do you have all the change gears?

The difference is the top oiler is a lost oil
system; you have to keep adding oil because it
just runs out the bearings and oils other
parts. But you always have fresh oil in the
bearing. The drip oilers are a good idea. See
attached. I have two lathes that are top oilers and will add the drip oilers.

Oh… the frosting got sloppy because they started
to let the apprentices do that. But why would you
want to remove perfectly good steel from the top
of the bed is another good question for SB. I
know about sticktion, but usually you frost the
parts you cannot see i.e. under the saddle.

This will be an interesting project, keep us posted.

ED S

At 12:18 PM 4/1/2014, you wrote:


I think I have a south bend 9C (sn 88692) ......
mike


william twombley
 

Hi Ed!

Good question on the saddle. Looks like I need to "mark" it. to see what kind of contact it has on the bearing surfaces ways, right? I have about a 10 inch bar of some sort made by starrett that seems to have nice ground, but I don't think, scraped surfaces.  I can use the surface plate at school to check it.  My machine shop instructor is a real ace... just a real font of knowledge, and is real encouraging!! At any rate, we can surely tune things  up to be some level of "standard". I am gathering a standard should, ideally be longer than the longest item to scrape? I'm new to this so there are big areas I am very thin with. I do have access to  a 60 inch granite surface plate just outside my office door that no one ever uses... lucky me!!

First, I plan to use the tail stock to get a grasp on how much wear is on the the outer ways of the new bed in the common wear area. The original scraping is still plainly visible in the headstock area. I would call it 60 to 70 percent. What is a decent number. I can do the same on the old bed as the the center ways are clean in the headstock region.

Looks like there is a period where the transition ocurred in "38-39" by the listings I've looked at. I noted a couple of lathes with top oilers on the list within a couple of hundred serial numbers either way of mine... transition period in the pipeline?

I believe I do have all the change gears.  It there something I should look for that is telling me something?

I really am not committed to any course of action other than making a nice serviceable machine that I can do nice accurate work on. I am not against havingthe bed on the 4 1/2' machine as they are, apparently relatively uncommon. It will not go to waste, for sure. If you know of a place to get the ways, saddle, and tailstock  done in Nor Cal redone, I am not against that at all.

Put the frosting under the saddle? Ah So!!! I looked carefully and it is all gone.  The saddle gib  shows traces of frosting. To check place saddle on precision round bars in the "V"s and measure to a Datum on the underside of the saddle? differences show wear and expect the most in the operator side of the saddle?

The base of the tailstock shows no frosting but noticeable wear maybe 1 to 1.5 inches at either end and the center 5 inches or so it is unfrosted but I'm barely able to pickup a fingernail on the worn area.

Only drawback it seems, is the headstock on the top oiler is usually not equipped with a hardened spindle.  Generally, being kind to your machine makes that a not so big of an issue. More than any thing else, a power crossfeed is the big ticket item for me as my hands are not so nimble any more.

Thanks Ed,  you sure seem to know your stuff.

Mike


Flash Gordon
 

Mike,

I am just a beginner, but I read a lot. If you are in north California. There is an expert in Portland Or, He has redone about a 100 lathes. I have visited his shop and I bet he would help you out. If you are interested I can hook you up.

Look at pictures here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45888076@N00/5156498202/in/photostream/

Ed S


william twombley
 

Any favorites in your reading list along these lines, Ed?

mike


Flash Gordon
 

Mike,

Here are three good ones:

http://www.wswells.com/

http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend/index.html

and join southbendmanual group, that is our library, look through files section but post questions here not there:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/southbendmanual/files


Ed S

At 08:02 PM 4/1/2014, you wrote:


Any favorites in your reading list along these lines, Ed?

mike

_


Paolo Amedeo
 

Mike,
Apologies for interjecting myself in the conversation.

The "Bible" of reconditioning machines is a book written by Edward F. Connelly, titled "Machine Tool Reconditioning and Application of Hand Scraping"
If you search carefully, you can find it in PDF version on the Web. (I'm pretty sure that there is more than a link to it in a few PM threads).

I'd also suggest you to to read through these two PM threads (the second is work in progress):

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/lucas-horizontal-boring-mill-going-tuckahoe-161194/
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/american-pacemaker-lathe-restoration-259065/

Paolo
Damascus, MD

On 04/01/2014 08:02 PM, twombo@... wrote:
 

Any favorites in your reading list along these lines, Ed?

mike




Gregg Eshelman
 

On 4/1/2014 3:56 PM, twombo@gotsky.com wrote:

I really am not committed to any course of action other than making a
nice serviceable machine that I can do nice accurate work on. I am not
against havingthe bed on the 4 1/2' machine as they are, apparently
relatively uncommon. It will not go to waste, for sure. If you know of a
place to get the ways, saddle, and tailstock done in Nor Cal redone, I
am not against that at all.
Machines with enough travel to mill or grind a bed 4.5 feet long are not exceedingly common. A very swaybacked bed can be hand scraped but it's a lot of work.

The way the right end gearing works, it doesn't make much difference if you have the full length of the bed done.

What does cause issues is the relationship between the leadscrew and the carriage. The underside of the saddle must be built up, usually with a molded in place product like Moglice or Devcon Titanium putty or a glued on solid like Turcite or Rulon - which must then be milled to height, or the leadscrew and QCGB (if equipped) and carriage gear rack have to be lowered the amount the carriage ways have been taken down.

There are owners of 9" and light 10" South Bends who have simply setup the bed on a mill with enough X travel and carefully cut the ways straight down, using the right rate of feed to get a shiny surface, and been perfectly happy with the results.

The carriage and 'stock ways don't have to be cut down the same amount. A bit of difference in saddle to spindle height from original isn't going to mess things up.

Saddle to leadscrew height can't be changed on lathes with power cross feed. The gear mesh has to be right on. Much simpler to build up the saddle than move everything else down.

On a basic changegear lathe with no power feeds the top of the apron can be cut the same amount the carriage ways are cut. South Bend did that in production prior to their first QCGB in 1920 and on later lathes without gearboxes and power feeds, which is why it's easier to swap the entire carriage instead of just the apron when upgrading to power feed. (Lower cost lathe, save time and money by fitting the apron to the lathe rather than having everything match the blueprints more precisely.)

What it boils down to is how much work do you want to do or can do VS how much money do you want to spend fixing up a lathe? Some lucky sods happen to live close enough to shops with large enough grinders - and don't happen to specialize in extracting the wallets of machine tool owners through their noses. ;) I've heard of people getting a 9" SB bed ground for as low as $600 which is a heck of a lot less than a specialty shop will charge.


william twombley
 

A little update....
Measured the outer ways using the tailstock base to hold my DTI.  Maximum wear is .002 in the common wear area near the headstock on the driver's side way. A ground 36 inch straight edge confirms the wear by light appearances in the same areas .Far side ways  show about .0015 wear in the same area.

I haven't fully levelled the bed so i'll pick up some wooden wedges tonight and level end to end and side to side and measure again. (I'm kinda getting my feet wet here and taking baby steps.

I made a preliminary "print" of the saddle using the headstock end using prussian blue to see if there are any signs of excess wear. I see a shallow elliptical contact line on the outer side of the outer way way deep in the saddle groove which seems logical since the original bed has severly worn in that area so I presume  the thickness of the new bed way, since it is very lightly worn, is not allowing the the saddle to fully seat.
I got some red and blue canode spotting inks to play with.

Next step is to fully level the bed and repeat the checks. Is there a number that I might use as a proper saddle height? Mostly that is a function of proper engagement of lead and crosslide screws, right? Once I have the bed leveled, I will check the saddle height  from the the tops surface of the top slide.  I indicated it and found about .002-.003 in the outer 2" of the flat bearing surfaces but even  side to side.

I'm sort of getting used to using the measuring instruments  and  so I am learning a lot.

mike