Topics

spindle lube


seikosman
 

Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous; I've been
using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!

Rick A.


kc1fp
 

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP

--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "seikosman" <seikopugss@...> wrote:

Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous; I've been
using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!

Rick A.


Dennis Turk <dennis.turk2@...>
 

Well said JP

If you guys do not have access to the correct oil go down to your
hardware store and purchase a can of 3 and 1 oil that is for
electric motor sleeve bearings. This oil is formulated to work with
sleeve bearings and wick material. Use it all the time and works
great. Please stay way from motor oil like JP said it is designed to
keep particles in suspension. Like sanding grit and fine metal
particles. Make a very good lapping medium for down sizing your
spindle journals for you guys that like lose spindle bearings.

Turk

--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "kc1fp" <jperkins@...> wrote:

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil
in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks
and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than
ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic
oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP


--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "seikosman" <seikopugss@>
wrote:

Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous; I've
been
using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!

Rick A.


tj_bassi
 

Someone on this group once said "I use way oil on the ways and spindle oil on everything else".....I dont recall who said it but it was worthwhile advice. Each is about $10 a gallon from McMaster Carr and is enough to last a virtual lifetime. I keep a squirt can of each on the chip tray and dont fret over what lube goes where anymore. I turn down alot of iron castings and am constantly cleaning and oiling the machine.

Just a thought.....
Tj

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Turk" <dennis.turk2@verizon.net>
To: <southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:13 PM
Subject: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube


Well said JP

If you guys do not have access to the correct oil go down to your
hardware store and purchase a can of 3 and 1 oil that is for
electric motor sleeve bearings. This oil is formulated to work with
sleeve bearings and wick material. Use it all the time and works
great. Please stay way from motor oil like JP said it is designed to
keep particles in suspension. Like sanding grit and fine metal
particles. Make a very good lapping medium for down sizing your
spindle journals for you guys that like lose spindle bearings.

Turk

--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "kc1fp" <jperkins@...> wrote:

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil
in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks
and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than
ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic
oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP


--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "seikosman" <seikopugss@>
wrote:

Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous; I've
been
using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!

Rick A.





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ChristopherS
 

Dennis:
 
Thanks for the tip about 3 in one oil. This was stuff that every house hold, farm, shop and factory had on their shelves not so long ago. It has been nearly forgotten by this generation and supplanted by WD40 which is hardly a substitute.
 
Chris

Dennis Turk wrote:

Well said JP

If you guys do not have access to the correct oil go down to your
hardware store and purchase a can of 3 and  1 oil that is for
electric motor sleeve bearings.  This oil is formulated to work with
sleeve bearings and wick material.  Use it all the time and works
great.  Please stay way from motor oil like JP said it is designed to
keep particles in suspension.  Like sanding grit and fine metal
particles.  Make a very good lapping medium for down sizing your
spindle journals for you guys that like lose spindle bearings.

Turk

--- In southbendlathe@..., "kc1fp" wrote:
>
> Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?
>
> Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil
in
> the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
> available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
> lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks
and a
> small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
> not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
> chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than
ATF.
>
> Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
> particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
> smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic
oil
> is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
> color of rust.
>
> I will never understand it.
>
> JP
>
>
> --- In southbendlathe@..., "seikosman"
wrote:
> >
> > Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous;  I've
been
> > using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!
> >
> > Rick A.
> >
>






nwinblad
 

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early. Should I use 3-in-1 oil in my
car to avoid this? Is it just that motor oil holds up to temperature
better? If detergent keeps the little nooks and crannies of an
automobile engine clean, wouldn't it do the same for a lathe? If motor
oil has gotten so good that now you only need to change it every 7500
miles and when I was a kid we had to change it every 3000 miles, then
has spindle oil and way oil and 3-in-1 oil also improved with time and
technology? Are all hydraulic cylinders and pumps made of stainless
steel or chromed so they don't rust or is the oil so hygroscopic that
the water preferentially bonds with the oil so none is left to cause
rust? I recently used a mister which has a mix rate of 1 part "stuff" to
50 parts water. It kept the part really cool, I think from the water
evaporating in the compressed air stream thus pulling heat out of the
airstream. Is keeping the part cool sufficient, or is there a
lubricating function of "cutting oil" which is somewhat lost with a
mister and practically pure water formula? Questions that have been
bouncing around in the back of my head for a while. Can someone give a
mini-lecture on this?

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kc1fp
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:21 PM
To: southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP


--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "seikosman" <seikopugss@...>
wrote:

Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous; I've been
using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!

Rick A.






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John
 

Hi Neal
 
A lecture is well beyond me but here are a few thoughts on the matter.
 
'Infernal' combustion engines make great demands on oils due to churning, heat, water, blow-by gases, etc so the detergents and other additives help keep the motor 'clean'. Plus the oil is filtered hence the need to keep contaminants in suspension so they can be scavenged by the filtering system.
 
By comparison machine tools are much cleaner and have less stressful operating conditions so the most of the additives are not needed and contaminants need to be able to fall out of suspension and so leave the machine or fall to the bottom of the gearbox etc where they can be flushed out when the oil is next changed.
 
All oil is hygroscopic to some extent so regularly changing the stuff (especially if the oil remains in the machine eg gearbox) is essential. Hydraulic oils have anti-corrosive additives added, but yes hydraulic parts are chromed or made of corrosion resistant metals such as stainless. I suspect the operating environment of such equipment has more of a corrosive effect than the absorbed water.
 
Perhaps there is an oil expert on the list who could set us all straight on this very important topic?
 
Cheers
John B
Sydney, Australia
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:31 PM
Subject: RE: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early. Should I use 3-in-1 oil in my
car to avoid this? Is it just that motor oil holds up to temperature
better? If detergent keeps the little nooks and crannies of an
automobile engine clean, wouldn't it do the same for a lathe? If motor
oil has gotten so good that now you only need to change it every 7500
miles and when I was a kid we had to change it every 3000 miles, then
has spindle oil and way oil and 3-in-1 oil also improved with time and
technology? Are all hydraulic cylinders and pumps made of stainless
steel or chromed so they don't rust or is the oil so hygroscopic that
the water preferentially bonds with the oil so none is left to cause
rust? I recently used a mister which has a mix rate of 1 part "stuff" to
50 parts water. It kept the part really cool, I think from the water
evaporating in the compressed air stream thus pulling heat out of the
airstream. Is keeping the part cool sufficient, or is there a
lubricating function of "cutting oil" which is somewhat lost with a
mister and practically pure water formula? Questions that have been
bouncing around in the back of my head for a while. Can someone give a
mini-lecture on this?

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: southbendlathe@...
[mailto:southbendlathe@...] On Behalf Of kc1fp
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:21 PM
To: southbendlathe@...
Subject: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP


--- In southbendlathe@..., "seikosman"
wrote:
>
> Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous;  I've been
> using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!
>
> Rick A.
>







--
Web: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/
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Smitty <TORYRANGER@...>
 

A partial answer to your question is that when you change the oil at 3000 miles in your car and the oil filter that pulls the impurities out of the oil. The oiler system in the lathe has no filter to pull out the suspended inpurities, just the action of gravity to allow the impurities to fall to the bottom of the oil sump that the wicks sit in. As for the 3000 mile oil change,our mechanic told my wife to get oil changes at 1500 mile iltervals, and that the oil changes are cheaper then motor replacements.
Smitty

Neal Winblad wrote:

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early. Should I use 3-in-1 oil in my
car to avoid this? Is it just that motor oil holds up to temperature
better? If detergent keeps the little nooks and crannies of an
automobile engine clean, wouldn't it do the same for a lathe? If motor
oil has gotten so good that now you only need to change it every 7500
miles and when I was a kid we had to change it every 3000 miles, then
has spindle oil and way oil and 3-in-1 oil also improved with time and
technology? Are all hydraulic cylinders and pumps made of stainless
steel or chromed so they don't rust or is the oil so hygroscopic that
the water preferentially bonds with the oil so none is left to cause
rust? I recently used a mister which has a mix rate of 1 part "stuff" to
50 parts water. It kept the part really cool, I think from the water
evaporating in the compressed air stream thus pulling heat out of the
airstream. Is keeping the part cool sufficient, or is there a
lubricating function of "cutting oil" which is somewhat lost with a
mister and practically pure water formula? Questions that have been
bouncing around in the back of my head for a while. Can someone give a
mini-lecture on this?

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: southbendlathe@...
[mailto:southbendlathe@...] On Behalf Of kc1fp
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:21 PM
To: southbendlathe@...
Subject: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP


--- In southbendlathe@..., "seikosman"
wrote:
>
> Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous;  I've been
> using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!
>
> Rick A.
>







--
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haretrggr <pocco@...>
 

--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, Smitty <TORYRANGER@...> wrote:
If there are any Metal particles, dirt, grit inside your spindle
bearings, no type of oil is going to prevent the spindle from being
scorred. The main point is to KEEP the lathe clean. Preventing chips
and especailly "not using the lathe" as a Grinder, Sanding with
sandpaper or abrasives on the lathe. I think "NOT LUBRICATING" the
spindle bearings is far worse than type of oil used. Think about
what you said. Motor oil keeps particles in suspension??? If you
have ANY particles in your spindle bearing, your going to scratch
them. Beforew they sink to the bottom of the oil sump, they already
scorred the bearings or spindle. The KEY= Keep the oil fillers clean
and keep flip caps on oil fillers closed. Make sure the cover that
fits on the front part of spindle is inplace. It's a shield to
prevent dirt and chips from entering the spindle and bearings.
A partial answer to your question is that when you change the oil
at
3000 miles in your car and the oil filter that pulls the
impurities out
of the oil. The oiler system in the lathe has no filter to pull
out the
suspended inpurities, just the action of gravity to allow the
impurities
to fall to the bottom of the oil sump that the wicks sit in. As
for the
3000 mile oil change,our mechanic told my wife to get oil changes
at
1500 mile iltervals, and that the oil changes are cheaper then
motor
replacements.
Smitty

Neal Winblad wrote:

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil
suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it
in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody
fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early. Should I use 3-in-1
oil in my
car to avoid this? Is it just that motor oil holds up to
temperature
better? If detergent keeps the little nooks and crannies of an
automobile engine clean, wouldn't it do the same for a lathe? If
motor
oil has gotten so good that now you only need to change it every
7500
miles and when I was a kid we had to change it every 3000 miles,
then
has spindle oil and way oil and 3-in-1 oil also improved with
time and
technology? Are all hydraulic cylinders and pumps made of
stainless
steel or chromed so they don't rust or is the oil so hygroscopic
that
the water preferentially bonds with the oil so none is left to
cause
rust? I recently used a mister which has a mix rate of 1
part "stuff" to
50 parts water. It kept the part really cool, I think from the
water
evaporating in the compressed air stream thus pulling heat out
of the
airstream. Is keeping the part cool sufficient, or is there a
lubricating function of "cutting oil" which is somewhat lost
with a
mister and practically pure water formula? Questions that have
been
bouncing around in the back of my head for a while. Can someone
give a
mini-lecture on this?

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kc1fp
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:21 PM
To: southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle
oil in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks
and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil,
but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with
misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than
ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes,
hydraulic oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like
the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP


--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "seikosman" <seikopugss@>
wrote:

Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous;
I've been
using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!

Rick A.






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tim gunn <timgunn@...>
 

A few significant differences between engines and lathes spring to mind.

First is the presence of an oil filter in the engine lube circuit. It is necessary only to keep the larger particles in suspension long enough to reach the filter, where they will be removed. Small particles remain in suspension until the oil is changed.

Very small particles are less damaging to an engine because of the much greater bearing clearances they run with. These clearances are made possible by forced oil feeds to the journals which allows a relatively thick layer of oil to maintain the hydrodynamic support necessary to prevent metal-to-metal contact. Try running a car without forced lubrication and it will quickly become expensive.

The headstock bearings have very small clearances so even very small particles, which would not worry an engine, can be bigger than the thickness of the oil film. They will therefore contact both the moving spindle and the static bearing simultaneously, causing wear.

Wickfeed is not one of the criteria for which motor oils are formulated. If it is considered at all, I would expect it to be something to avoid; I'd expect an oil designed for its capillary feed properties to find its way past most automotive gasket materials fairly easily.

There are many extra criteria for which motor oils are formulated and many, if not all, will have a downside for lathe use. There are experts in tribology who work at the oil companies and formulate oils for specific applications. They understand the issues far better than you or I, and we should respect and be guided by their expertise.

It is possible to store grain in a cotton pillowcase or to use sheets made from sackcloth. We tend not to do these things because sackcloth is better for storing grain in and cotton is better for bedding. Crucially, most people are familiar enough with the technologies involved in sleeping and storing grain that they understand this and use the correct textile for the job.

The technology behind oil formulation is much less obvious to most people, so it is more likely that the wrong product is used by those who know no better.

Hope it helps.

Regards

Tim Gunn

Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:31:46 -0800
From: "Neal Winblad" <nwinblad@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Re: spindle lube

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early. Should I use 3-in-1 oil in my
car to avoid this? Is it just that motor oil holds up to temperature
better? If detergent keeps the little nooks and crannies of an
automobile engine clean, wouldn't it do the same for a lathe? If motor
oil has gotten so good that now you only need to change it every 7500
miles and when I was a kid we had to change it every 3000 miles, then
has spindle oil and way oil and 3-in-1 oil also improved with time and
technology? Are all hydraulic cylinders and pumps made of stainless
steel or chromed so they don't rust or is the oil so hygroscopic that
the water preferentially bonds with the oil so none is left to cause
rust? I recently used a mister which has a mix rate of 1 part "stuff" to
50 parts water. It kept the part really cool, I think from the water
evaporating in the compressed air stream thus pulling heat out of the
airstream. Is keeping the part cool sufficient, or is there a
lubricating function of "cutting oil" which is somewhat lost with a
mister and practically pure water formula? Questions that have been
bouncing around in the back of my head for a while. Can someone give a
mini-lecture on this?

Neal


Jerry Harper <ad5cl@...>
 

The last few posts concerning lubricants have been, in my view, some of the
most useful I have seen to date. (I am a n00b, so small frame of reference)

I am thankful that my relative ignorance caused me to faithfully follow the
1946 vintage paperwork I have with my inherited lathe. Of no less import was
the brief comment I saw in print somewhere of a gentleman that had been
running a lathe longer than me OR my SB9A has been in existence. He allowed
VERY briefly that he had been running the specified oils for over a half
century with no problems or worn out components.

I bought three jugs of oil as per the HTRAL instructions. It cost less than
$40, shipped. My heirs will likely be the ones to replenish some of it.

Thank You, most respected veteran machinists.

J

-----Original Message-----
From: southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com [mailto:southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of tim gunn
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 6:48 AM
To: southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [southbendlathe] Re: Re: spindle lube

A few significant differences between engines and lathes spring to mind.

First is the presence of an oil filter in the engine lube circuit. It is
necessary only to keep the larger particles in suspension long enough to
reach the filter, where they will be removed. Small particles remain in
suspension until the oil is changed.

Very small particles are less damaging to an engine because of the much
greater bearing clearances they run with. These clearances are made possible

by forced oil feeds to the journals which allows a relatively thick layer of

oil to maintain the hydrodynamic support necessary to prevent metal-to-metal

contact. Try running a car without forced lubrication and it will quickly
become expensive.

The headstock bearings have very small clearances so even very small
particles, which would not worry an engine, can be bigger than the thickness

of the oil film. They will therefore contact both the moving spindle and the

static bearing simultaneously, causing wear.

Wickfeed is not one of the criteria for which motor oils are formulated. If
it is considered at all, I would expect it to be something to avoid; I'd
expect an oil designed for its capillary feed properties to find its way
past most automotive gasket materials fairly easily.

There are many extra criteria for which motor oils are formulated and many,
if not all, will have a downside for lathe use. There are experts in
tribology who work at the oil companies and formulate oils for specific
applications. They understand the issues far better than you or I, and we
should respect and be guided by their expertise.

It is possible to store grain in a cotton pillowcase or to use sheets made
from sackcloth. We tend not to do these things because sackcloth is better
for storing grain in and cotton is better for bedding. Crucially, most
people are familiar enough with the technologies involved in sleeping and
storing grain that they understand this and use the correct textile for the
job.

The technology behind oil formulation is much less obvious to most people,
so it is more likely that the wrong product is used by those who know no
better.

Hope it helps.

Regards

Tim Gunn



Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 21:31:46 -0800
From: "Neal Winblad" <nwinblad@comcast.net>
Subject: RE: Re: spindle lube

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early. Should I use 3-in-1 oil in my
car to avoid this? Is it just that motor oil holds up to temperature
better? If detergent keeps the little nooks and crannies of an
automobile engine clean, wouldn't it do the same for a lathe? If motor
oil has gotten so good that now you only need to change it every 7500
miles and when I was a kid we had to change it every 3000 miles, then
has spindle oil and way oil and 3-in-1 oil also improved with time and
technology? Are all hydraulic cylinders and pumps made of stainless
steel or chromed so they don't rust or is the oil so hygroscopic that
the water preferentially bonds with the oil so none is left to cause
rust? I recently used a mister which has a mix rate of 1 part "stuff" to
50 parts water. It kept the part really cool, I think from the water
evaporating in the compressed air stream thus pulling heat out of the
airstream. Is keeping the part cool sufficient, or is there a
lubricating function of "cutting oil" which is somewhat lost with a
mister and practically pure water formula? Questions that have been
bouncing around in the back of my head for a while. Can someone give a
mini-lecture on this?

Neal




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ALAN WHEATLEY
 

If the 3-in1 oil sold in the States is the same as the product sold here, it probably works better in lathes that are frequently used and frequently cleaned. The 3-in1 sold in Britain seems to contain additives that form a stubborn varnish on surfaces after an oil film evaporated -- as it does if it's left to do that -- so it probably isn't so well suited for use with lathes that are used occasionally and left with all surfaces oiled as a rust protective.
 
Take a look an old 3-in1 tin on your shelf -- mine is stained brown with old oil drips. My aluminium oil can that I've used for machine oil for the last twenty years is as still bright and shiny as when I bought it.
 
Alan

Dennis Turk wrote:

Well said JP

If you guys do not have access to the correct oil go down to your
hardware store and purchase a can of 3 and  1 oil that is for
electric motor sleeve bearings.  This oil is formulated to work with
sleeve bearings and wick material.  Use it all the time and works
great.  Please stay way from motor oil like JP said it is designed to
keep particles in suspension.  Like sanding grit and fine metal
particles.  Make a very good lapping medium for down sizing your
spindle journals for you guys that like lose spindle bearings.

Turk

--- In southbendlathe@..., "kc1fp" wrote:
>
> Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?
>
> Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil
in
> the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
> available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
> lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks
and a
> small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
> not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
> chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than
ATF.
>
> Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
> particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
> smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic
oil
> is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
> color of rust.
>
> I will never understand it.
>
> JP
>
>
> --- In southbendlathe@..., "seikosman"
wrote:
> >
> > Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous;  I've
been
> > using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!
> >
> > Rick A.
> >
>






nwinblad
 

Thank you to everyone who took the time to submit such thoughful replies on lathe lubrication. I am learning a lot from them. With this new understanding I am sure I will be in a better position to do the right thing when it comes to lubrication. I wouldn't mind my lathe lasting another 60 years.
 
I thought up one other question regarding lubrication that has been knocking around in my old noggin for a bit: I asked the question of why we need to scrape the ways now tht grinders can get them nice and straight? The answer I got was that the scraping provides a rough surface to hold lubricant. But, then I got to thinking, South Bend micro grinds the spindle bearing surface to 50 millionths of an inch to provide longer life to the bearings. Would the scraping logic suggest that they should take sand paper to them instead. Or, would it suggest that polished ways would last longer? Or, are they quite different models with respect to how the oil flows to these surfaces?
 
Neal
 

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "John"
Hi Neal
 
A lecture is well beyond me but here are a few thoughts on the matter.
 
'Infernal' combustion engines make great demands on oils due to churning, heat, water, blow-by gases, etc so the detergents and other additives help keep the motor 'clean'. Plus the oil is filtered hence the need to keep contaminants in suspension so they can be scavenged by the filtering system.
 
By comparison machine tools are much cleaner and have less stressful operating conditions so the most of the additives are not needed and contaminants need to be able to fall out of suspension and so leave the machine or fall to the bottom of the gearbox etc where they can be flushed out when the oil is next changed.
 
All oil is hygroscopic to some extent so regularly changing the stuff (especially if the oil remains in the machine eg gearbox) is essential. Hydraulic oils have anti-corrosive additives added, but yes hydraulic parts are chromed or made of corrosion resistant metals such as stainless. I suspect the operating environment of such equipment has more of a corrosive effect than the absorbed water.
 
Perhaps there is an oil expert on the list who could set us all straight on this very important topic?
 
Cheers
John B
Sydney, Australia
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:31 PM
Subject: RE: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early. Should I use 3-in-1 oil in my
car to avoid this? Is it just that motor oil holds up to temperature
better? If detergent keeps the little nooks and crannies of an
automobile engine clean, wouldn't it do the same for a lathe? If motor
oil has gotten so good that now you only need to change it every 7500
miles and when I was a kid we had to change it every 3000 miles, then
has spindle oil and way oil and 3-in-1 oil also improved with time and
technology? Are all hydraulic cylinders and pumps made of stainless
steel or chromed so they don't rust or is the oil so hygroscopic that
the water preferentially bonds with the oil so none is left to cause
rust? I recently used a mister which has a mix rate of 1 part "stuff" to
50 parts water. It kept the part really cool, I think from the water
evaporating in the compressed air stream thus pulling heat out of the
airstream. Is keeping the part cool sufficient, or is there a
lubricating function of "cutting oil" which is somewhat lost with a
mister and practically pure water formula? Questions that have been
bouncing around in the back of my head for a while. Can someone give a
mini-lecture on this?

Neal

-----Original Message-----
From: southbendlathe@...
[mailto:southbendlathe@...] On Behalf Of kc1fp
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:21 PM
To: southbendlathe@...
Subject: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP


--- In southbendlathe@..., "seikosman"
wrote:
>
> Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous;  I've been
> using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!
>
> Rick A.
>







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Thomas G Brandl
 

Neal,
The problem with flat ways is they would wring themselves together
and then not slide. If you have ever use Jo blocks, its the same thing that
holds them together. There's a bit of clearance between the two spindle
bearing surfaces. The oil fills this space to an extent. On the ways, the
fish scales create breaks for the air to pass and oil so the ways can't fit
themselves together.
Tom


|---------+------------------------------>
| | nwinblad@comcast.ne|
| | t |
| | Sent by: |
| | southbendlathe@yaho|
| | ogroups.com |
| | |
| | |
| | 03/01/2006 02:07 PM|
| | Please respond to |
| | southbendlathe |
| | |
|---------+------------------------------>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com |
| cc: |
| Subject: Re: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube |
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|





Thank you to everyone who took the time to submit such thoughful replies on
lathe lubrication. I am learning a lot from them. With this new
understanding I am sure I will be in a better position to do the right
thing when it comes to lubrication. I wouldn't mind my lathe lasting
another 60 years.

I thought up one other question regarding lubrication that has been
knocking around in my old noggin for a bit: I asked the question of why we
need to scrape the ways now tht grinders can get them nice and straight?
The answer I got was that the scraping provides a rough surface to hold
lubricant. But, then I got to thinking, South Bend micro grinds the spindle
bearing surface to 50 millionths of an inch to provide longer life to the
bearings. Would the scraping logic suggest that they should take sand paper
to them instead. Or, would it suggest that polished ways would last longer?
Or, are they quite different models with respect to how the oil flows to
these surfaces?

Neal

-------------- Original message --------------
From: "John" <reproturn@bigpond.com>
Hi Neal

A lecture is well beyond me but here are a few thoughts on the matter.

'Infernal' combustion engines make great demands on oils due to churning,
heat, water, blow-by gases, etc so the detergents and other additives help
keep the motor 'clean'. Plus the oil is filtered hence the need to keep
contaminants in suspension so they can be scavenged by the filtering
system.

By comparison machine tools are much cleaner and have less stressful
operating conditions so the most of the additives are not needed and
contaminants need to be able to fall out of suspension and so leave the
machine or fall to the bottom of the gearbox etc where they can be flushed
out when the oil is next changed.

All oil is hygroscopic to some extent so regularly changing the stuff
(especially if the oil remains in the machine eg gearbox) is essential.
Hydraulic oils have anti-corrosive additives added, but yes hydraulic parts
are chromed or made of corrosion resistant metals such as stainless. I
suspect the operating environment of such equipment has more of a corrosive
effect than the absorbed water.

Perhaps there is an oil expert on the list who could set us all straight on
this very important topic?

Cheers
John B
Sydney, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: Neal Winblad
To: southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 4:31 PM
Subject: RE: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early. Should I use 3-in-1 oil in my
car to avoid this? Is it just that motor oil holds up to temperature
better? If detergent keeps the little nooks and crannies of an
automobile engine clean, wouldn't it do the same for a lathe? If motor
oil has gotten so good that now you only need to change it every 7500
miles and when I was a kid we had to change it every 3000 miles, then
has spindle oil and way oil and 3-in-1 oil also improved with time and
technology? Are all hydraulic cylinders and pumps made of stainless
steel or chromed so they don't rust or is the oil so hygroscopic that
the water preferentially bonds with the oil so none is left to cause
rust? I recently used a mister which has a mix rate of 1

--
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More pix:  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/
Newbie guide: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SouthBendLathePix/ Files area
FAQ:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southbendlathe/files/SouthBendLatheFAQ.html
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Gene Horr <genehorr@...>
 

I asked the question of why we need to scrape the ways now tht
grinders can get them nice and straight? The answer I got was
that the scraping provides a rough surface to hold lubricant.
My understanding is that the frosting process adds a rough surface.
The primary reason for hand scraping is that it is the most accurate
method. In fact the surface can be too good. There isn't enough
error in the surface to hold the lubricant.

It is counterintuitive the but the random errors that hand scraping
inccur actually cancel out over time, resulting in a better finish
than if a machine is doing it.

The reason it is done by machines is purely economic.

A similar situation exists in the optics industry. Except for the
larger research instruments where it is just not feasible to do by
hand all high end instruments are hand figured and polished. At
most a machine may do the rough figuring. Manufacturers would give
their right arm for an effective way to produce high end optics by
machine.

Hand scraping actually can produce a metal surface in which the
error is a fraction of the wavelength of light.

Gene Horr


Frank Chadwick <fr4nk.chadwick@...>
 

Neal,
 
Never mind your lathe,  I wouldn't mind lasting another 60 years.
 
Frank  (Saddleworth)

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: [southbendlathe] Re: spindle lube

Thank you to everyone who took the time to submit such thoughful replies on lathe lubrication. I am learning a lot from them. With this new understanding I am sure I will be in a better position to do the right thing when it comes to lubrication. I wouldn't mind my lathe lasting another 60 years.
 
Neal
 


ChristopherS
 

I can't speak for what the current USA formula is. I do know that the old stuff ( I have a 35 year old can} is clear with slight gold tint. It's nothing more that light machine oil. WD40 will varnish up big time!
 
Chris.

ALAN WHEATLEY wrote:

If the 3-in1 oil sold in the States is the same as the product sold here, it probably works better in lathes that are frequently used and frequently cleaned. The 3-in1 sold in Britain seems to contain additives that form a stubborn varnish on surfaces after an oil film evaporated -- as it does if it's left to do that -- so it probably isn't so well suited for use with lathes that are used occasionally and left with all surfaces oiled as a rust protective.
 
Take a look an old 3-in1 tin on your shelf -- mine is stained brown with old oil drips. My aluminium oil can that I've used for machine oil for the last twenty years is as still bright and shiny as when I bought it.
 
Alan

Dennis Turk wrote:
Well said JP

If you guys do not have access to the correct oil go down to your
hardware store and purchase a can of 3 and  1 oil that is for
electric motor sleeve bearings.  This oil is formulated to work with
sleeve bearings and wick material.  Use it all the time and works
great.  Please stay way from motor oil like JP said it is designed to
keep particles in suspension.  Like sanding grit and fine metal
particles.  Make a very good lapping medium for down sizing your
spindle journals for you guys that like lose spindle bearings.

Turk

--- In southbendlathe@..., "kc1fp" wrote:
>
> Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?
>
> Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil
in
> the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
> available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
> lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks
and a
> small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
> not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
> chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than
ATF.
>
> Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
> particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
> smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic
oil
> is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
> color of rust.
>
> I will never understand it.
>
> JP
>
>
> --- In southbendlathe@..., "seikosman"
wrote:
> >
> > Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous;  I've
been
> > using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!
> >
> > Rick A.
> >
>







kc1fp
 

Neal,

I am NO tribiologist but...
Motor oil with its emulsifiers suspend particals so that the filter
can capture them and remove them from the system. The other additives
are included so the oil can maintain its shear strength at engine
operating temperatures as well as lubing the rubber seals. You also
have a mechanical pump to move this concoction through the engine. Oil
also has to provide internal cooling in the engine. The 3000 mile vs
7500 mile oil change difference is because the newer synthetic oils
oxidize at a slower rate so they last longer. This is a different
environment than a lathe so it requires a different lube.

ATF lubricates and is a hydraulic oil and has to be compatable with
different metals and seals. It also removes heat in the transmission.
Different requirements, different formulations.

Hydraulic oil has to have good compressive strength and its
lubricating properties are secondary. In the extreme size hydraulic
forge presses water is used, not oil.

WD-40 in my opinion is just plain garbage.

Never sieze was mentioned somewhere in this list, its an aluminum
based grease. It works good on lug nuts and other contact surfaces
left in corrosive environments.

Different oil formulations are required for different applications and
operating environments.

On the lathe just use ISO 10 Spindle oil in the spindle and apron and
ISO 68 Way oil elsewhere and be generous with the oil. Do NOT grease
the gears, oil them. Grease holds metal chips which in turn can place
undue pressure on meshing teeth leading to breakage.

JP
--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "Neal Winblad" <nwinblad@...>
wrote:

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.


Carl Young
 

The 10L that I am restoring, was built in '42.

The gent I got it from "exclusively" used ATF. He bought it in '54.

Upon stripping it down, cleaning, and bringing it back up; I was
amazed at how tight many of the shafts fit.

I asked him..."you must have not used it much"....."O, there was a
time it ran almost every day."

Won't say ATF is the choice, but when inspection revealed gears that
look and feel like they were cut yesterday, and shafts still fit nice
an snug......mmmm, maybe.........

Just two cents worth........carl

--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, ALAN WHEATLEY
<alan.wheatley10@...> wrote:

If the 3-in1 oil sold in the States is the same as the product sold
here, it probably works better in lathes that are frequently used and
frequently cleaned. The 3-in1 sold in Britain seems to contain
additives that form a stubborn varnish on surfaces after an oil film
evaporated -- as it does if it's left to do that -- so it probably
isn't so well suited for use with lathes that are used occasionally
and left with all surfaces oiled as a rust protective.

Take a look an old 3-in1 tin on your shelf -- mine is stained
brown with old oil drips. My aluminium oil can that I've used for
machine oil for the last twenty years is as still bright and shiny as
when I bought it.

Alan

Dennis Turk <dennis.turk2@...> wrote:
Well said JP

If you guys do not have access to the correct oil go down to your
hardware store and purchase a can of 3 and 1 oil that is for
electric motor sleeve bearings. This oil is formulated to work with
sleeve bearings and wick material. Use it all the time and works
great. Please stay way from motor oil like JP said it is designed to
keep particles in suspension. Like sanding grit and fine metal
particles. Make a very good lapping medium for down sizing your
spindle journals for you guys that like lose spindle bearings.

Turk

--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "kc1fp" <jperkins@> wrote:

Mineral oil? Is the spindle constipated?

Why do so many people want to use something other than spindle oil
in
the resevoirs of the SB lathe spindles. It is low cost, readily
available and the system was designed for its use. You have a
lubrication system based upon capillary action of the felt wicks
and a
small temperature gradient. It works very well with Spindle oil, but
not very well with mineral oil which is what ATF is, along with misc
chemicals. I think extra virgin olive oil might work better than
ATF.

Then we have the gearheads with motor oil. They must like having
particles kept in suspension grinding on the spindle; or the real
smart ones who like to use hydraulic oil and water. Yes, hydraulic
oil
is hydroscopic, it absorbs water from the air. Maybe they like the
color of rust.

I will never understand it.

JP


--- In southbendlathe@yahoogroups.com, "seikosman" <seikopugss@>
wrote:

Thank you all for your input; sounds like it's unanimous; I've
been
using ATF and had no problem; guess I'd better stick with it!

Rick A.





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bdmail <bdmail@...>
 

That is why you change your oil...

Keeping particles in suspension is a good idea when the plan is changing
your oil... since then you get RID of the particles when you change it.



Bernie

Maybe I'm just dumb, but I can't figure out why, if motor oil suspends
the grit and becomes a lapping slurry, we would want to put it in our
engines and wear down all the bearings in them? Can somebody fill me in.
I don't want to wear out my engine early.