14-1/2 spindle nose and taper


Rangelov
 

Hi,
I have a 14-1/2 inch SB lathe with the uncommon 2-1/4 x 6 TPI spindle.  This has a small diameter internal bore.  Too small for 5C collets.

I want to use a headstock center for turning between centers.  I cannot determine what I need to fit a center.  A Morse taper #3 is too small. I think a MT #4 is too large (it has been a very long time since I tried it).

The tailstock is MT #3.

The spindle has an approximate 1-5/16 gauge line.  I tried a center adapter from a friend, but it only went in about a 1/2 inch.  Other adapters didn't fit at all.

I looked at the SB spindle information sheet, but no help there.

Does anyone know what I have or should have? Or what is exactly neeed.

I know that I can chuck up a rod and turn it into a center.  But, I would like to get a center or proper adapter to fit my spindle.

Thanks, Dimitar


Jim_B
 

SB tended to use proprietary tapers in their spindles.
Each lathe was shipped with an adapter to a standard MT. 
Your adapter would have been a MT-3

The taper dimensions can be fund in the files section on the SB tooling dimensions  form 
I have attached a copy. The row that indicates its MT-3 is with the adapter. 
These sometimes show up on ebay.  There should be past discussions on other sources. 



Jim B.

Dr. James A Benjamin
1629 Riverview Drive. Apt 416
Deerfield Beach, FL 33441



On Apr 22, 2022, at 12:29 PM, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:

Hi,
I have a 14-1/2 inch SB lathe with the uncommon 2-1/4 x 6 TPI spindle.  This has a small diameter internal bore.  Too small for 5C collets.

I want to use a headstock center for turning between centers.  I cannot determine what I need to fit a center.  A Morse taper #3 is too small. I think a MT #4 is too large (it has been a very long time since I tried it).

The tailstock is MT #3.

The spindle has an approximate 1-5/16 gauge line.  I tried a center adapter from a friend, but it only went in about a 1/2 inch.  Other adapters didn't fit at all.

I looked at the SB spindle information sheet, but no help there.

Does anyone know what I have or should have? Or what is exactly neeed.

I know that I can chuck up a rod and turn it into a center.  But, I would like to get a center or proper adapter to fit my spindle.

Thanks, Dimitar


--
Jim B


Rangelov
 

As said previously, I have looked at SouthBend documenation.  I have not found dimensions for my spindle, nor a spindle adapter listed.

My spindle gage line is about 1.313 inches, Morse Taper #4 has gage line of 1.231. Which means a paper thin center adapter or the center goes in too deep.  It has been a few years since I tried to fit a center.

I know there are other SouthBend 14-1/2 lathe owners here.  Anyone with the small spindle (2-1/4x6) nose?  How is your spindle configured?
  What center fits your spindle?  Does it have a sleeve?

Thanks for any real assitance, Dimitar


Andrei
 

Can't you make one, based on your measurements?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rangelov <rangelov@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:55:39 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper
 
As said previously, I have looked at SouthBend documenation.  I have not found dimensions for my spindle, nor a spindle adapter listed.

My spindle gage line is about 1.313 inches, Morse Taper #4 has gage line of 1.231. Which means a paper thin center adapter or the center goes in too deep.  It has been a few years since I tried to fit a center.

I know there are other SouthBend 14-1/2 lathe owners here.  Anyone with the small spindle (2-1/4x6) nose?  How is your spindle configured?
  What center fits your spindle?  Does it have a sleeve?

Thanks for any real assitance, Dimitar


wmrmeyers@gmail.com
 

My Heavy 10L has a 2-1/4-8tpi spindle nose, and uses an adapter to take an MT3 taper. It may not be the same as yours, if yours is a 2-1/4-6 nose, but it should be close. If I can find the adapter, I could measure it for you. I picked sets of MT2 & MT3 taper reamers from Amazon a couple of years ago. The MT3 set I got is still for sale, $32, approximately, from Amazon. I've not had much luck cutting tapers myself yet, but these could help if you can get the correct OD and taper for a custom adapter. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07KJB8NGG

I was told that the adapter is approximately an MT4-1/2, but couldn't swear to that. 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) 

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)




On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 09:59:11 AM CDT, Andrei <calciu1@...> wrote:


Can't you make one, based on your measurements?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Rangelov <rangelov@...>
Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2022 10:55:39 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper
 
As said previously, I have looked at SouthBend documenation.  I have not found dimensions for my spindle, nor a spindle adapter listed.

My spindle gage line is about 1.313 inches, Morse Taper #4 has gage line of 1.231. Which means a paper thin center adapter or the center goes in too deep.  It has been a few years since I tried to fit a center.

I know there are other SouthBend 14-1/2 lathe owners here.  Anyone with the small spindle (2-1/4x6) nose?  How is your spindle configured?
  What center fits your spindle?  Does it have a sleeve?

Thanks for any real assitance, Dimitar


George Meinschein
 

Dimitar,
Mine came with a tapered spindle sleeve that has a Morse #2 center in it. I just measured the sleeve OD at each end and the taper matches the 0.602" per foot spec for the inside of the 14.5" 2-1/4"x6 spindle. The South Bend literature indicates that the headstock spindle center should be a Morse #3. I held a Morse #3 up against my sleeve and by eyeball, it looks like that would work fine IF my sleeve was bored accordingly. So, my original adapter sleeve was probably lost and someone likely made my adapter sleeve in the past 80 years or so. Hope that helps.


Thanks, George Meinschein 150 Brittany Drive Freehold, NJ 07728 gmeinschein@... Cell#: 732-580-1736

Sent from ProtonMail mobile



-------- Original Message --------
On May 28, 2022, 10:55 AM, Rangelov < rangelov@...> wrote:

As said previously, I have looked at SouthBend documenation.  I have not found dimensions for my spindle, nor a spindle adapter listed.

My spindle gage line is about 1.313 inches, Morse Taper #4 has gage line of 1.231. Which means a paper thin center adapter or the center goes in too deep.  It has been a few years since I tried to fit a center.

I know there are other SouthBend 14-1/2 lathe owners here.  Anyone with the small spindle (2-1/4x6) nose?  How is your spindle configured?
  What center fits your spindle?  Does it have a sleeve?

Thanks for any real assitance, Dimitar
--
-George M.


rlm_mcv
 

A 14.5" uses a Morse 3 taper with a sleeve that on the outside is a special South Bend taper.  It is fairly easy to turn your compound and hand cut the special taper.  The angle is achieved when you have dial indicator reads zero when advancing the compound within the spindle.

I normally cut 2 when I have the compound set so I have a blank for future needs.

This is a subject that has been asked about many times in the past so more detailed thoughts are in the archives of this site.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 11:24:05 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


As said previously, I have looked at SouthBend documenation.  I have not found dimensions for my spindle, nor a spindle adapter listed.

My spindle gage line is about 1.313 inches, Morse Taper #4 has gage line of 1.231. Which means a paper thin center adapter or the center goes in too deep.  It has been a few years since I tried to fit a center.

I know there are other SouthBend 14-1/2 lathe owners here.  Anyone with the small spindle (2-1/4x6) nose?  How is your spindle configured?
  What center fits your spindle?  Does it have a sleeve?

Thanks for any real assitance, Dimitar


mike allen
 

        Have you checked in over here ? There's alot of knowledge there along with a couple of folks that worked for South Bend  ( the real one , not the one that Grizzly sells )

        https://www.practicalmachinist.com/forum/categories/south-bend-lathes.25/

        animal

On 5/28/2022 7:55 AM, Rangelov wrote:
As said previously, I have looked at SouthBend documenation.  I have not found dimensions for my spindle, nor a spindle adapter listed.

My spindle gage line is about 1.313 inches, Morse Taper #4 has gage line of 1.231. Which means a paper thin center adapter or the center goes in too deep.  It has been a few years since I tried to fit a center.

I know there are other SouthBend 14-1/2 lathe owners here.  Anyone with the small spindle (2-1/4x6) nose?  How is your spindle configured?
  What center fits your spindle?  Does it have a sleeve?

Thanks for any real assitance, Dimitar


rlm_mcv
 



A 14.5" uses a Morse 3 taper with a sleeve that on the outside is a special South Bend taper.  It is fairly easy to turn your compound and hand cut the special taper.  The angle is achieved when you have dial indicator reads zero when advancing the compound within the spindle.

I normally cut 2 when I have the compound set so I have a blank for future needs.

This is a subject that has been asked about many times in the past so more detailed thoughts are in the archives of this site.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 11:24:05 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


As said previously, I have looked at SouthBend documenation.  I have not found dimensions for my spindle, nor a spindle adapter listed.

My spindle gage line is about 1.313 inches, Morse Taper #4 has gage line of 1.231. Which means a paper thin center adapter or the center goes in too deep.  It has been a few years since I tried to fit a center.

I know there are other SouthBend 14-1/2 lathe owners here.  Anyone with the small spindle (2-1/4x6) nose?  How is your spindle configured?
  What center fits your spindle?  Does it have a sleeve?

Thanks for any real assitance, Dimitar


eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

There are a lot of lathe types that use a sleeve for the headstock centre, and in my experience, they are all shorter than the corresponding MT or close size of MT. Can anybody think of a reason why the lathe builders supplied a special sleeve instead of just making a special one piece centre that fits the lathe? Is it just so that you can replace the centre easily off the shelf after it has had a bash?


Eddie


Bill in OKC too
 

That would probably be it. Centers are a lot cheaper than the sleeve would be, and they tended to regrind them to true the center back in the days before CNC machines when they needed the extra accuracy. Small centers are obviously cheaper, and easier to regrind. That's my story...

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 02:13:16 PM CDT, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:


There are a lot of lathe types that use a sleeve for the headstock centre, and in my experience, they are all shorter than the corresponding MT or close size of MT. Can anybody think of a reason why the lathe builders supplied a special sleeve instead of just making a special one piece centre that fits the lathe? Is it just so that you can replace the centre easily off the shelf after it has had a bash?


Eddie


ken campbell
 

just for reference, i have a friend that has a heavy 10 ... but it has a d3 chuck, and we think it takes MT4.5 spindle centers.  it also has about a 1.25 inch spindle hole..  kind of a rare beast, apparently.  it is a qc with starwheel clutch engagement and has a taper attachment ! ...  and underdrive.  hmmm .

oh, we can't find a MT4.5 adapter anywhere, but at least he has the taper attachment to make some.

ken


Guenther Paul
 

In 50 years of machining i never heard or saw a 4 1/2 morse taper  1,2,3,4,5 yes

GP


On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 08:45:15 PM EDT, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


just for reference, i have a friend that has a heavy 10 ... but it has a d3 chuck, and we think it takes MT4.5 spindle centers.  it also has about a 1.25 inch spindle hole..  kind of a rare beast, apparently.  it is a qc with starwheel clutch engagement and has a taper attachment ! ...  and underdrive.  hmmm .

oh, we can't find a MT4.5 adapter anywhere, but at least he has the taper attachment to make some.

ken


rlm_mcv
 

I agree Paul the so called MT4.5 is a more recent made up designation created to explain what for years what was known as a proprietary taper.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 08:33:52 PM CDT, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:


In 50 years of machining i never heard or saw a 4 1/2 morse taper  1,2,3,4,5 yes

GP


On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 08:45:15 PM EDT, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


just for reference, i have a friend that has a heavy 10 ... but it has a d3 chuck, and we think it takes MT4.5 spindle centers.  it also has about a 1.25 inch spindle hole..  kind of a rare beast, apparently.  it is a qc with starwheel clutch engagement and has a taper attachment ! ...  and underdrive.  hmmm .

oh, we can't find a MT4.5 adapter anywhere, but at least he has the taper attachment to make some.

ken


rlm_mcv
 

The new so called MT4.5 also is listed as a taper per foot of .6240, where South Bend lists most of their propitiatory tapers at .602 as per the factory South Bend literature I posted earlier.

It is a simple task to create this part with the lathe it will be used on.  It is a short engagement and the offset compound will produce it.  There is no need to wonder where to purchase this part.


On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 08:44:38 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I agree Paul the so called MT4.5 is a more recent made up designation created to explain what for years what was known as a proprietary taper.

On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 08:33:52 PM CDT, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:


In 50 years of machining i never heard or saw a 4 1/2 morse taper  1,2,3,4,5 yes

GP


On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 08:45:15 PM EDT, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


just for reference, i have a friend that has a heavy 10 ... but it has a d3 chuck, and we think it takes MT4.5 spindle centers.  it also has about a 1.25 inch spindle hole..  kind of a rare beast, apparently.  it is a qc with starwheel clutch engagement and has a taper attachment ! ...  and underdrive.  hmmm .

oh, we can't find a MT4.5 adapter anywhere, but at least he has the taper attachment to make some.

ken


wmrmeyers@gmail.com
 

My heavy 10 has the 1-3/8" spindle through hole. So far as I can tell, anyway. It's still a little too rusty to be certain. Spent five years in a leaky barn before I got it. I have it about a third disassembled and de-rusted. Headstock, turret tailstock, and two of the old single tumbler QCGB's, and a taper attachment, still need disassembly and de-rusting. 

Might be a few years yet, but it's inside, taking up my workshop space. I may may de-rust the bed with an improvised blaster full of walnut shell with sheet plastic to catch the walnut shell. Have an old parts washer full of Purple Power degrease that will probably use on the gear boxes and such. Though I've also built a tank to do electrolytic rust removal if the walnut shell doesn't work well. 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) 

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)




On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 07:45:42 PM CDT, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


just for reference, i have a friend that has a heavy 10 ... but it has a d3 chuck, and we think it takes MT4.5 spindle centers.  it also has about a 1.25 inch spindle hole..  kind of a rare beast, apparently.  it is a qc with starwheel clutch engagement and has a taper attachment ! ...  and underdrive.  hmmm .

oh, we can't find a MT4.5 adapter anywhere, but at least he has the taper attachment to make some.

ken


wmrmeyers@gmail.com
 

I was told it was "about" MT4.5, and that is not an official size. Haven't measured it, though it did get de-rusted in EvapoRust. I'd have to finally unbox my surface plate to measure it properly, but I'm willing if anyone needs it done. 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) 

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)




On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 08:33:52 PM CDT, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:


In 50 years of machining i never heard or saw a 4 1/2 morse taper  1,2,3,4,5 yes

GP


On Saturday, May 28, 2022, 08:45:15 PM EDT, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


just for reference, i have a friend that has a heavy 10 ... but it has a d3 chuck, and we think it takes MT4.5 spindle centers.  it also has about a 1.25 inch spindle hole..  kind of a rare beast, apparently.  it is a qc with starwheel clutch engagement and has a taper attachment ! ...  and underdrive.  hmmm .

oh, we can't find a MT4.5 adapter anywhere, but at least he has the taper attachment to make some.

ken


wlw19958
 

Hi There, 

My SBL Tooling Spec Sheet lists two sets of specifications for the 14.5"
lathes.  There is the 14.5" - 3/4" collet and the 14.5" - 1-1/16" collet. 

The specs for the 14.5" - 3/4" collet has a gage line of 1.325",
and a Taper per inch of .602". 

The specs for the 14.5" - 1-1/16" collet has a gage line of 1.629",
and a Taper per inch of .602".

As to the Morse 4-1/2 taper,  It isn't listed in the Morse Taper chart but
in my Machinery's Handbook 15 Ed. (1957) page 1416 under standard
tapers is table #5 - American Standard Self-holding Tapers - Basic Dimensions
(ASA B5.10-1953), it lists a 4&1/2 taper under the Morse Taper Series.  It is
listed as having a Taper per Inch of 0.62400" and a Gage line of 1.50000".

So, I don't think that using the 4&1/2 Morse taper designation is particularly
"new."

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


rlm_mcv
 

I am surprised it is listed in 1957.  That is nearly 100 years after the Morse standards were created.  We don't know when it showed up but seems relatively new compared to the original standards with the info that has be expressed so far.  It would be interesting to find why for sure that 1/2 size was created latter too, rather than having to speculate.

On Sunday, May 29, 2022, 12:19:42 AM CDT, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:


Hi There, 

My SBL Tooling Spec Sheet lists two sets of specifications for the 14.5"
lathes.  There is the 14.5" - 3/4" collet and the 14.5" - 1-1/16" collet. 

The specs for the 14.5" - 3/4" collet has a gage line of 1.325",
and a Taper per inch of .602". 

The specs for the 14.5" - 1-1/16" collet has a gage line of 1.629",
and a Taper per inch of .602".

As to the Morse 4-1/2 taper,  It isn't listed in the Morse Taper chart but
in my Machinery's Handbook 15 Ed. (1957) page 1416 under standard
tapers is table #5 - American Standard Self-holding Tapers - Basic Dimensions
(ASA B5.10-1953), it lists a 4&1/2 taper under the Morse Taper Series.  It is
listed as having a Taper per Inch of 0.62400" and a Gage line of 1.50000".

So, I don't think that using the 4&1/2 Morse taper designation is particularly
"new."

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb


wlw19958
 

Hi There, 

I gather from the table (ASA 5.10-1953) that this table was
adopted in 1953.  I would guess that it was adopted because
several machine makers during the 1950's started using this
taper in the spindles of their lathes (like Rockwell, Clausing
and Leblond).  I don't know who was first and when actually
it started. 

I do see that SBL did make a lathe that used it (the 1307 model)
but I am unfamiliar with that model.  I don't know if this model
was actually made by SBL or just re-badged from some other
maker and sold under the SBL name.  My information comes
from spec.sheet 7324 (dated 5-73). 

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb