Date   
Re: Looking for Heavy 10 or 13 near Long Island, NY

Roger Bickers
 

Thanks for the reply John, we were on a dynamite crew together..I learned a lot from him, and would love to say hi and thanks. 


On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:13 AM, John Fischer
<n2nu@...> wrote:

Nope, sorry.  I did drive through it once.

 

-J

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of Roger Bickers via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 4:05 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Looking for Heavy 10 or 13 near Long Island, NY

 

John did you ever live in Arkansas?  I used to work with a John Fischer and lost contact with him years ago. 

Roger 

 

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:37 AM, Rick

<vwrick@...> wrote:

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:53 AM, John Fischer wrote:

Rick I am in Central Jersey and have a Heavy 10 for sale, it is a later model Flame hardened ways in good shape.  If you want more details let me know and I will contact you off list.

 

Please contact me.

Thanks

Re: Looking for Heavy 10 or 13 near Long Island, NY

John Fischer
 

Nope, sorry.  I did drive through it once.

 

-J

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of Roger Bickers via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 4:05 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Looking for Heavy 10 or 13 near Long Island, NY

 

John did you ever live in Arkansas?  I used to work with a John Fischer and lost contact with him years ago. 

Roger 

 

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:37 AM, Rick

<vwrick@...> wrote:

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:53 AM, John Fischer wrote:

Rick I am in Central Jersey and have a Heavy 10 for sale, it is a later model Flame hardened ways in good shape.  If you want more details let me know and I will contact you off list.

 

Please contact me.

Thanks

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

a.earl1@sky.com
 

IF YOU WANT A TAILSTOCK WITH CAM ACTION FIT ONE FROM 41/2" BOXFORD  .YOU JUST HAVE TO SHIM IT TO GET HEIGHT RIGHT .WORKS PERFECTLY ON MY 9" SOUTHBEND

On Tuesday, 12 May 2020, 08:44:46 BST, Ondrej Krejci via groups.io <okrejci@...> wrote:


Kind of makes Mr Blue Chips Webb want to just make a spanner for his nut and forget all about some cam action stuff.....

On Monday, May 11, 2020, 07:24:50 PM EDT, Steven H via groups.io <stevesmachining@...> wrote:


I think we have beaten this poor horse to death. I believe this whole topic started with an Op wanting to know if anyone has installed a cam lock device for the tailstock. I have never attempted this on my Atlas or SB lathes. 

Steve Haskell


On May 11, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:



He is partially correct. There are two questions:

1) Can it be made to work? He has answered this perfectly. The thread merely needs to be coarse enough to tighten/loosen adequately given the available wrench motion.

2) What is the thickness shim required to make it work? This IS determined by the pitch of the screw. It may well be that sane way to find the shim thickness is by trial and error. Probably so. But the thickness that trial and error finds will have been mandated by the thread pitch and the range of tightness without the shim.

We must be bored out of our skulls today.


On 5/11/20 5:23 PM, wlw19958 wrote:
Hi There,

Actually, Jim is proving my point!  Yes, the thread pitch has to be
course enough but whether it is 16tpi, 14tpi, 12tpi doesn't matter.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Ondrej Krejci
 

Kind of makes Mr Blue Chips Webb want to just make a spanner for his nut and forget all about some cam action stuff.....

On Monday, May 11, 2020, 07:24:50 PM EDT, Steven H via groups.io <stevesmachining@...> wrote:


I think we have beaten this poor horse to death. I believe this whole topic started with an Op wanting to know if anyone has installed a cam lock device for the tailstock. I have never attempted this on my Atlas or SB lathes. 

Steve Haskell


On May 11, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:



He is partially correct. There are two questions:

1) Can it be made to work? He has answered this perfectly. The thread merely needs to be coarse enough to tighten/loosen adequately given the available wrench motion.

2) What is the thickness shim required to make it work? This IS determined by the pitch of the screw. It may well be that sane way to find the shim thickness is by trial and error. Probably so. But the thickness that trial and error finds will have been mandated by the thread pitch and the range of tightness without the shim.

We must be bored out of our skulls today.


On 5/11/20 5:23 PM, wlw19958 wrote:
Hi There,

Actually, Jim is proving my point!  Yes, the thread pitch has to be
course enough but whether it is 16tpi, 14tpi, 12tpi doesn't matter.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Steven H
 

I think we have beaten this poor horse to death. I believe this whole topic started with an Op wanting to know if anyone has installed a cam lock device for the tailstock. I have never attempted this on my Atlas or SB lathes. 

Steve Haskell


On May 11, 2020, at 7:04 PM, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:



He is partially correct. There are two questions:

1) Can it be made to work? He has answered this perfectly. The thread merely needs to be coarse enough to tighten/loosen adequately given the available wrench motion.

2) What is the thickness shim required to make it work? This IS determined by the pitch of the screw. It may well be that sane way to find the shim thickness is by trial and error. Probably so. But the thickness that trial and error finds will have been mandated by the thread pitch and the range of tightness without the shim.

We must be bored out of our skulls today.


On 5/11/20 5:23 PM, wlw19958 wrote:
Hi There,

Actually, Jim is proving my point!  Yes, the thread pitch has to be
course enough but whether it is 16tpi, 14tpi, 12tpi doesn't matter.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

ww_big_al
 

This is being made too complicated. Get yourself several ½” flat washers (assuming ½” size) and put them on. If 3 is to many , and 2 are not enough then the thickness will be between 2 & 3 washer thicknesses.  About 2.5 washers. Clocking the square bolt may help also.

Al

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Davis Johnson
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 7:05 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

 

He is partially correct. There are two questions:

1) Can it be made to work? He has answered this perfectly. The thread merely needs to be coarse enough to tighten/loosen adequately given the available wrench motion.

2) What is the thickness shim required to make it work? This IS determined by the pitch of the screw. It may well be that sane way to find the shim thickness is by trial and error. Probably so. But the thickness that trial and error finds will have been mandated by the thread pitch and the range of tightness without the shim.

We must be bored out of our skulls today.

 

On 5/11/20 5:23 PM, wlw19958 wrote:

Hi There,

Actually, Jim is proving my point!  Yes, the thread pitch has to be
course enough but whether it is 16tpi, 14tpi, 12tpi doesn't matter.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Davis Johnson
 

He is partially correct. There are two questions:

1) Can it be made to work? He has answered this perfectly. The thread merely needs to be coarse enough to tighten/loosen adequately given the available wrench motion.

2) What is the thickness shim required to make it work? This IS determined by the pitch of the screw. It may well be that sane way to find the shim thickness is by trial and error. Probably so. But the thickness that trial and error finds will have been mandated by the thread pitch and the range of tightness without the shim.

We must be bored out of our skulls today.


On 5/11/20 5:23 PM, wlw19958 wrote:
Hi There,

Actually, Jim is proving my point!  Yes, the thread pitch has to be
course enough but whether it is 16tpi, 14tpi, 12tpi doesn't matter.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

wlw19958
 

Hi There,

Actually, Jim is proving my point!  Yes, the thread pitch has to be
course enough but whether it is 16tpi, 14tpi, 12tpi doesn't matter.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: Looking for Heavy 10 or 13 near Long Island, NY

Roger Bickers
 

John did you ever live in Arkansas?  I used to work with a John Fischer and lost contact with him years ago. 
Roger 


On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:37 AM, Rick
<vwrick@...> wrote:
On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:53 AM, John Fischer wrote:

Rick I am in Central Jersey and have a Heavy 10 for sale, it is a later model Flame hardened ways in good shape.  If you want more details let me know and I will contact you off list.

 

Please contact me.

Thanks

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Andrei
 

Agreed. Jim is spot on the money. 


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Jim_B <jim@...>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2020 3:40 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13
 
Yes I agree the thread is relevant, but only to the extend that it must be coarse enough to do the job. 

A fine thread will not work. 

Let's say that we need 0.010” of space between the lower clamp and the underside rails of the bed for the tailstock to move properly. 

(Is that a good number? I don't know, I know on my beat up bed I would need more.)

I want that space to show up when I move the locking nut 1 flat, maybe 1-1/2 flats. Then one turn of the screw would move the nut 0.060”
Thats a 16.7 TPI thread. so anything less than 16.6 TPI will not work for the quick on/off use we are looking for. 

The washer thickness or position of the square nut would not matter, We would need more than 1 flat to get enough space. 
Now my SB-10L has a 13 TPI thread. Thats 0.077” per turn or about 0.013”  per flat. If your bed is in fair condition that should be enough, So   should 14 TPI, or 12 TPI or 10 TPI  and any usable thread coarser than 16.7.

A 20 TPI thread, OTOH will not work. It will lock down the tailstock but not in 1 flat. 

So, Yes the thread pitch is important as long as its coarse enough. 

On 11 May 2020, at 14:56, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:

Hi There,

Sorry I have to respectfully disagree.

Fine.  You can disagree.  I still maintain that the thread pitch is immaterial.  Of course
one can calculate the amount to decrease or increase based on the pitch but it doesn't
matter what the pitch is.  One can change the thickness to suit no matter what the pitch
is.  You are getting bogged down in the minutia that hasn't the constituent value of a
large pile of legumes.  You have to step back to see the larger picture. 

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Jim B.





--
Jim B

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Jim_B
 

Yes I agree the thread is relevant, but only to the extend that it must be coarse enough to do the job. 

A fine thread will not work. 

Let's say that we need 0.010” of space between the lower clamp and the underside rails of the bed for the tailstock to move properly. 

(Is that a good number? I don't know, I know on my beat up bed I would need more.)

I want that space to show up when I move the locking nut 1 flat, maybe 1-1/2 flats. Then one turn of the screw would move the nut 0.060”
Thats a 16.7 TPI thread. so anything less than 16.6 TPI will not work for the quick on/off use we are looking for. 

The washer thickness or position of the square nut would not matter, We would need more than 1 flat to get enough space. 
Now my SB-10L has a 13 TPI thread. Thats 0.077” per turn or about 0.013”  per flat. If your bed is in fair condition that should be enough, So   should 14 TPI, or 12 TPI or 10 TPI  and any usable thread coarser than 16.7.

A 20 TPI thread, OTOH will not work. It will lock down the tailstock but not in 1 flat. 

So, Yes the thread pitch is important as long as its coarse enough. 

On 11 May 2020, at 14:56, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:

Hi There,

Sorry I have to respectfully disagree.

Fine.  You can disagree.  I still maintain that the thread pitch is immaterial.  Of course
one can calculate the amount to decrease or increase based on the pitch but it doesn't
matter what the pitch is.  One can change the thickness to suit no matter what the pitch
is.  You are getting bogged down in the minutia that hasn't the constituent value of a
large pile of legumes.  You have to step back to see the larger picture. 

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Jim B.





--
Jim B

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

wlw19958
 

Hi There,

Sorry I have to respectfully disagree.

Fine.  You can disagree.  I still maintain that the thread pitch is immaterial.  Of course
one can calculate the amount to decrease or increase based on the pitch but it doesn't
matter what the pitch is.  One can change the thickness to suit no matter what the pitch
is.  You are getting bogged down in the minutia that hasn't the constituent value of a
large pile of legumes.  You have to step back to see the larger picture. 

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

m. allan noah
 

The thread pitch most certainly is relevant. That (along with
clearance, wear and the elasticity of the parts) is what decides what
fraction of a turn is required to lock the tailstock.

allan

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 11:13 AM wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:

Hi There,

Talking about thread pitch (i.e. T.P.I.) is irrelevant. What is a thread anyway?
It is a wedging action arranged in a helix. So, what we're talking about is how
to wedge the tailstock so that it is secure against linear movement when needed.
And un-wedging it when linear movement is desired. So, those who insist that
it has to do with thread pitch are missing the big picture and are concentrating on
extraneous details.

The idea of re-indexing the square head bolt in the tailstock clamp is a viable one.
It provides two more possible combination and it may be enough to work. It will
provide a 30° rotational offset in relation to the flats on the nut (assuming a hex nut).
When I got my first Heavy Ten, the tailstock clamp was a 1/2" block or steel with a
stud in it and hence didn't provide for the re-orientation of the bolt.

Shaving the underside of the nut is of course possible but it make take several tries
to get it where the user wants and once it has been machined down, it is difficult to
put the metal back. I learned a long ago to modify the cheapest part so that if one
screws up, replacement will be cheap. That is why I suggested making some washers.
They are easy to make; they don't require much machining skill (i.e. a beginner can
do it) or tooling. And if it doesn't work, the person is no worst off that before.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb
--
"well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge
of my hand"

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Steven H
 

Anyway, it’s all theoretical calculations. Variation in the bolt thread pitch, wear in washer thickness, wear on the mating boss, bolt stretch, wear in the tailstock, variation in the bed thickness, etc could require adjustments over the life of the lathe. If you have ever built a Quorn tool and cutter grinder, adjusting the washer thickness under each ball handle is how to get the handle to end up where you want it to be. 

Steve Haskell

On May 11, 2020, at 12:00 PM, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:



But thread pitch (i.e. TPI) is what determines the thickness of the washer required to get a desired re-clocking of the nut. A 1/TPI washer will result in a 360 degree reclocking, back to where you started. If you want a 1/8 turn difference (1/8)*(1/TPI) washer will do, (9/8)*(1/TPI) will probably be more practical.

How to produce such an animal is probably more problematical than the math.

On 5/11/20 11:12 AM, wlw19958 wrote:
Hi There,

Talking about thread pitch (i.e. T.P.I.) is irrelevant.  What is a thread anyway?
It is a wedging action arranged in a helix.  So, what we're talking about is how
to wedge the tailstock so that it is secure against linear movement when needed.
And un-wedging it when linear movement is desired. So, those who insist that
it has to do with thread pitch are missing the big picture and are concentrating on
extraneous details.

The idea of re-indexing the square head bolt in the tailstock clamp is a viable one. 
It provides two more possible combination and it may be enough to work.  It will
provide a 30° rotational offset in relation to the flats on the nut (assuming a hex nut). 
When I got my first Heavy Ten, the tailstock clamp was a 1/2" block or steel with a
stud in it and hence didn't provide for the re-orientation of the bolt.  

Shaving the underside of the nut is of course possible but it make take several tries
to get it where the user wants and once it has been machined down, it is difficult to
put the metal back.  I learned a long ago to modify the cheapest part so that if one
screws up, replacement will be cheap.  That is why I suggested making some washers. 
They are easy to make; they don't require much machining skill (i.e. a beginner can 
do it) or tooling. And if it doesn't work, the person is no worst off that before.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Davis Johnson
 

But thread pitch (i.e. TPI) is what determines the thickness of the washer required to get a desired re-clocking of the nut. A 1/TPI washer will result in a 360 degree reclocking, back to where you started. If you want a 1/8 turn difference (1/8)*(1/TPI) washer will do, (9/8)*(1/TPI) will probably be more practical.

How to produce such an animal is probably more problematical than the math.

On 5/11/20 11:12 AM, wlw19958 wrote:
Hi There,

Talking about thread pitch (i.e. T.P.I.) is irrelevant.  What is a thread anyway?
It is a wedging action arranged in a helix.  So, what we're talking about is how
to wedge the tailstock so that it is secure against linear movement when needed.
And un-wedging it when linear movement is desired. So, those who insist that
it has to do with thread pitch are missing the big picture and are concentrating on
extraneous details.

The idea of re-indexing the square head bolt in the tailstock clamp is a viable one. 
It provides two more possible combination and it may be enough to work.  It will
provide a 30° rotational offset in relation to the flats on the nut (assuming a hex nut). 
When I got my first Heavy Ten, the tailstock clamp was a 1/2" block or steel with a
stud in it and hence didn't provide for the re-orientation of the bolt.  

Shaving the underside of the nut is of course possible but it make take several tries
to get it where the user wants and once it has been machined down, it is difficult to
put the metal back.  I learned a long ago to modify the cheapest part so that if one
screws up, replacement will be cheap.  That is why I suggested making some washers. 
They are easy to make; they don't require much machining skill (i.e. a beginner can 
do it) or tooling. And if it doesn't work, the person is no worst off that before.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Steven H
 

Sorry I have to respectfully disagree. The thread pitch is what you would use in the calculations to figure out how much to machine off the washer or to machine a new washer and make it thicker all in order to attempt to get the wrench handle to be where you want it. It’s all a trial and error process and I think we may be “beating a dead horse”. But, for instance, take a 1/2-13 thread on a bolt. The pitch is 1/13=0.0769” per 360 degrees of rotation so .0769”/360=0.0002” per degree of rotation. So if one can estimate where their tailstock wrench handle is and where they want it to be when clamped in degrees, they could determine how much machine off the existing washer or how much to add if machining a new washer. All via trial and error of course. Nuff said. 

Steve Haskell

On May 11, 2020, at 11:13 AM, wlw19958 <wlw-19958@...> wrote:

Hi There,

Talking about thread pitch (i.e. T.P.I.) is irrelevant.  What is a thread anyway?
It is a wedging action arranged in a helix.  So, what we're talking about is how
to wedge the tailstock so that it is secure against linear movement when needed.
And un-wedging it when linear movement is desired. So, those who insist that
it has to do with thread pitch are missing the big picture and are concentrating on
extraneous details.

The idea of re-indexing the square head bolt in the tailstock clamp is a viable one. 
It provides two more possible combination and it may be enough to work.  It will
provide a 30° rotational offset in relation to the flats on the nut (assuming a hex nut). 
When I got my first Heavy Ten, the tailstock clamp was a 1/2" block or steel with a
stud in it and hence didn't provide for the re-orientation of the bolt.  

Shaving the underside of the nut is of course possible but it make take several tries
to get it where the user wants and once it has been machined down, it is difficult to
put the metal back.  I learned a long ago to modify the cheapest part so that if one
screws up, replacement will be cheap.  That is why I suggested making some washers. 
They are easy to make; they don't require much machining skill (i.e. a beginner can 
do it) or tooling. And if it doesn't work, the person is no worst off that before.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

Jim_B
 

Steve has a very good point that I had never thought about.

The head on the bolt IS square. The nut is HEX.

Now the bolt on my Heavy 10 is 1/2-13. A 13 tpi nut advances 0.077” per full turn.

Thats 0.013” per flat. The tailstock has enough open space to allow one flat or perhaps 1-1/2 flats, of movement, to tighten or loosen itself. OTOH the bolt, with its square head, changes the thread position by 0.019” per flat.
Thus by rotating the square head in the cast clamp under the tail stock, one flat, and moving the nut, you can advance or retard the clamping range by 0.019-0.013, or 0.006” which is about 1/2 of a hex nut flat.

That might be enough to allow a full on/off without even trimming the washer.

Jim B.





--
Jim B

Re: Looking for Heavy 10 or 13 near Long Island, NY

Rick
 

On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 10:53 AM, John Fischer wrote:

Rick I am in Central Jersey and have a Heavy 10 for sale, it is a later model Flame hardened ways in good shape.  If you want more details let me know and I will contact you off list.

 

Please contact me.

Thanks

Re: cam tailstock lock modifications for SB13

wlw19958
 

Hi There,

Talking about thread pitch (i.e. T.P.I.) is irrelevant.  What is a thread anyway?
It is a wedging action arranged in a helix.  So, what we're talking about is how
to wedge the tailstock so that it is secure against linear movement when needed.
And un-wedging it when linear movement is desired. So, those who insist that
it has to do with thread pitch are missing the big picture and are concentrating on
extraneous details.

The idea of re-indexing the square head bolt in the tailstock clamp is a viable one. 
It provides two more possible combination and it may be enough to work.  It will
provide a 30° rotational offset in relation to the flats on the nut (assuming a hex nut). 
When I got my first Heavy Ten, the tailstock clamp was a 1/2" block or steel with a
stud in it and hence didn't provide for the re-orientation of the bolt.  

Shaving the underside of the nut is of course possible but it make take several tries
to get it where the user wants and once it has been machined down, it is difficult to
put the metal back.  I learned a long ago to modify the cheapest part so that if one
screws up, replacement will be cheap.  That is why I suggested making some washers. 
They are easy to make; they don't require much machining skill (i.e. a beginner can 
do it) or tooling. And if it doesn't work, the person is no worst off that before.

Good Luck!
-Blue Chips-
Webb

Re: Looking for Heavy 10 or 13 near Long Island, NY

John Fischer
 

Rick I am in Central Jersey and have a Heavy 10 for sale, it is a later model Flame hardened ways in good shape.  If you want more details let me know and I will contact you off list.

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of Rick
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2020 7:59 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: [SouthBendLathe] Looking for Heavy 10 or 13 near Long Island, NY

 

I have a really nice 9A, but there are times I would like a bigger hole through the headstock, so I'm on the lookout for either a Heavy 10 or 13.  If you have one or know of one available near Long Island, NY, please let me know.

Thanks,  Rick