Date   

Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

mike allen
 

yea , I'm interested in learnin what the difference is between a type N & the other lathes

        animal

On 7/25/2020 7:57 AM, m. allan noah wrote:
I've never used a Series N power feeds- how is it that the leadscrew
reverse tumbler direction controls facing vs turning?

allan

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 10:52 AM david_g4000 via groups.io
<dmbanwarth=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
That was the problem I was having too. Glad it is helpful Dan. If you see any updates needed, please let me know.

-------- Original message --------
From: Dan Beeker <debeeker@...>
Date: 7/25/20 10:21 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

What a great resource. I use my 16” Type N South Bend just often enough to forget how to switch between turning and threading. Your documents will fill a sacred spot on the wall beside my lathe. Thank you for posting the instructions.



Dan Beeker



PureUnobtanium.com

Indiana University - retired




Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

david_g4000
 
Edited

Eddie,

Thanks for the comments. You are doing a lot more thread types than I normally do. You are correct that it could be misleading, as I normally only do UNC or UNF threading on this lathe.

I normally use a HSS ground tool or a BXA mounted preformed tool for threading, but recently got a formed carbide threading insert tool to try out.

Thanks again, very helpful.

Dave

On 7/25/2020 3:55 PM, eddie.draper@... via groups.io wrote:
Just 2 minor comments:
 
Not all threads have a 60 degree angle (the instruction says to set the compund at 30 degrees).� That applies only so far as I know to American UN form and ISO metric form.� Whitworth form threads are 55 degrees, so set the compound at 27.5 degrees.� Acme is 29 degrees, so set to 14.5 degrees, Metric trapezoidal threads (ISO equivalent to Acme) are 30 degrees, so set to 15.� You are unlikely to want to screwcut BA threads (47.5 degrees) as all the thread pitches apart from 0BA (1mm pitch) are difficult to achieve as they and the diameters proceed in a geometric progression, not in nice round numbers in anybody's system.
 
Setting the compound over at half the thread angle applies only to cutting tools that are not manufactured full form carbide inserts.� Single purpose full form carbide threading inserts go straight in.�
 
If making a general purpose 55 or 60 degree angle tool for use with feed from the compound slide, only one side will do most or all of the cutting, so the top rake should be a.) suited to the workpiece material and b.) parallel to the direction of feed.
 
Actually, when cutting ACME or the ISO equivalent, I keep the compound set at 0, so upon achieving the correct measured major & minor diameters and finding the mating thread still tight, I can advance the tool a thour or two at a time longitudinally to widen the groove until it suddenly frees off when tried.� I would do the same if I ever had to cut a square thread.
 
Best wishes to all, and stay healthy,
 
Eddie
 
On Saturday, 25 July 2020, 19:07:12 BST, Louis via groups.io <l_schoolkate@...> wrote:
 
 
Everything in your write-up looks fine to me.
I too have a model 'N' but a smaller 9x34 dating to roughly 1933. I've owned mine now for 4 years and it's my go-to lathe for smaller work.�

My 9" has a heavier built headstock compared to other 9" South Bends of the same era. The bed is also wider and has the same cross section as my ~1944 Heavy 10. It also has the similar heavy double walled apron and the cross feed and compound both have adjustable tapered gibs. My research indicates that Model 'N's were the more expensive commercial line lathes. During the Great Depression South Bend cut out some of those more expensive features to reduce the cost in some of their other lines.

My 9" sat unused for many decades and shows little wear. Although the controls are slightly different, in practice they work similar to the Heavy 10. Given how overbuilt it is, I expect it will outlive me by many years.

Just for interest's sake, my Heavy 10 is also an unusual model, a Series 'S' benchtop model. It's labelled as a 10L 487Z and has the large bore spindle. However, it has the typical SB rear countershaft not an undermount drive. The lathe is illustrated in the 1941 South Bend catalog on page 41 along with the 487Z catalog number.�


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

Just 2 minor comments:

Not all threads have a 60 degree angle (the instruction says to set the compund at 30 degrees).  That applies only so far as I know to American UN form and ISO metric form.  Whitworth form threads are 55 degrees, so set the compound at 27.5 degrees.  Acme is 29 degrees, so set to 14.5 degrees, Metric trapezoidal threads (ISO equivalent to Acme) are 30 degrees, so set to 15.  You are unlikely to want to screwcut BA threads (47.5 degrees) as all the thread pitches apart from 0BA (1mm pitch) are difficult to achieve as they and the diameters proceed in a geometric progression, not in nice round numbers in anybody's system.

Setting the compound over at half the thread angle applies only to cutting tools that are not manufactured full form carbide inserts.  Single purpose full form carbide threading inserts go straight in. 

If making a general purpose 55 or 60 degree angle tool for use with feed from the compound slide, only one side will do most or all of the cutting, so the top rake should be a.) suited to the workpiece material and b.) parallel to the direction of feed.

Actually, when cutting ACME or the ISO equivalent, I keep the compound set at 0, so upon achieving the correct measured major & minor diameters and finding the mating thread still tight, I can advance the tool a thour or two at a time longitudinally to widen the groove until it suddenly frees off when tried.  I would do the same if I ever had to cut a square thread.

Best wishes to all, and stay healthy,

Eddie

On Saturday, 25 July 2020, 19:07:12 BST, Louis via groups.io <l_schoolkate@...> wrote:


Everything in your write-up looks fine to me.
I too have a model 'N' but a smaller 9x34 dating to roughly 1933. I've owned mine now for 4 years and it's my go-to lathe for smaller work. 

My 9" has a heavier built headstock compared to other 9" South Bends of the same era. The bed is also wider and has the same cross section as my ~1944 Heavy 10. It also has the similar heavy double walled apron and the cross feed and compound both have adjustable tapered gibs. My research indicates that Model 'N's were the more expensive commercial line lathes. During the Great Depression South Bend cut out some of those more expensive features to reduce the cost in some of their other lines.

My 9" sat unused for many decades and shows little wear. Although the controls are slightly different, in practice they work similar to the Heavy 10. Given how overbuilt it is, I expect it will outlive me by many years.

Just for interest's sake, my Heavy 10 is also an unusual model, a Series 'S' benchtop model. It's labelled as a 10L 487Z and has the large bore spindle. However, it has the typical SB rear countershaft not an undermount drive. The lathe is illustrated in the 1941 South Bend catalog on page 41 along with the 487Z catalog number. 


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

david_g4000
 

Louis,

Thanks for the feedback, and I really enjoy learning more history of the N series and the comparisons you pointed out. Mine is a 1931 which was delivered to a utility company machine shop where it seems to have seen limited use as well. Someone at the shop let me know that it was going to be surplussed and that it had not been run for at least 30 years. So, it is in great condition as well. I recently modified it to upgrade from 3/4hp to 1.5hp, 3 Phase. The old motor needed re-winding and the cost was too much. It's nice that the new motor has lifetime lubrication, which I'm sure will outlive me as well.

It wish I had a larger spindle bore sometimes like your Heavy 10. But, I can dog drive larger work pieces between centers if needed.

I will take a look at the Series S.

Thanks,

Dave

On 7/25/2020 2:07 PM, Louis via groups.io wrote:
Everything in your write-up looks fine to me.
I too have a model 'N' but a smaller 9x34 dating to roughly 1933. I've owned mine now for 4 years and it's my go-to lathe for smaller work.?

My 9" has a heavier built headstock compared to other 9" South Bends of the same era. The bed is also wider and has the same cross section as my ~1944 Heavy 10. It also has the similar heavy double walled apron and the cross feed and compound both have adjustable tapered gibs. My research indicates that Model 'N's were the more expensive commercial line lathes. During the Great Depression South Bend cut out some of those more expensive features to reduce the cost in some of their other lines.

My 9" sat unused for many decades and shows little wear. Although the controls are slightly different, in practice they work similar to the Heavy 10. Given how overbuilt it is, I expect it will outlive me by many years.

Just for interest's sake, my Heavy 10 is also an unusual model, a Series 'S' benchtop model. It's labelled as a 10L 487Z and has the large bore spindle. However, it has the typical SB rear countershaft not an undermount drive. The lathe is illustrated in the 1941 South Bend catalog on page 41 along with the 487Z catalog number.?


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

Louis
 

Everything in your write-up looks fine to me.
I too have a model 'N' but a smaller 9x34 dating to roughly 1933. I've owned mine now for 4 years and it's my go-to lathe for smaller work. 

My 9" has a heavier built headstock compared to other 9" South Bends of the same era. The bed is also wider and has the same cross section as my ~1944 Heavy 10. It also has the similar heavy double walled apron and the cross feed and compound both have adjustable tapered gibs. My research indicates that Model 'N's were the more expensive commercial line lathes. During the Great Depression South Bend cut out some of those more expensive features to reduce the cost in some of their other lines.

My 9" sat unused for many decades and shows little wear. Although the controls are slightly different, in practice they work similar to the Heavy 10. Given how overbuilt it is, I expect it will outlive me by many years.

Just for interest's sake, my Heavy 10 is also an unusual model, a Series 'S' benchtop model. It's labelled as a 10L 487Z and has the large bore spindle. However, it has the typical SB rear countershaft not an undermount drive. The lathe is illustrated in the 1941 South Bend catalog on page 41 along with the 487Z catalog number. 


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

david_g4000
 

Allan,
The Worm Gear lever position determines the direction that the tool will travel when turning or facing. "Down" position powers the apron from right to left, and "Up" drives the cross slide from front to back. I used those conventions as my default directions in the pictorial. Some others might choose to use left to right as their default convention on turning operations, in which case the Worm Gear lever would remain in the "Up" position for both turning and facing. The Gear Slide position transfers the drive setting between turning and facing operations.
I hope I understood the question correctly and this is helpful in explaining.
The only other lathe experience I have is with my first lathe, a Grizzley G4000 (9x20). So, I don't know how the N controls differ from other popular SB models. But, I found them a bit confusing when being away from it for a while, so the diagrams help me quickly refresh as a reference.
Thanks for the question.
Dave


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

m. allan noah
 

I've never used a Series N power feeds- how is it that the leadscrew
reverse tumbler direction controls facing vs turning?

allan

On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 10:52 AM david_g4000 via groups.io
<dmbanwarth=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:

That was the problem I was having too. Glad it is helpful Dan. If you see any updates needed, please let me know.

-------- Original message --------
From: Dan Beeker <debeeker@...>
Date: 7/25/20 10:21 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

What a great resource. I use my 16” Type N South Bend just often enough to forget how to switch between turning and threading. Your documents will fill a sacred spot on the wall beside my lathe. Thank you for posting the instructions.



Dan Beeker



PureUnobtanium.com

Indiana University - retired





--
"well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge
of my hand"


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

david_g4000
 

That was the problem I was having too. Glad it is helpful Dan. If you see any updates needed, please let me know.

-------- Original message --------
From: Dan Beeker <debeeker@...>
Date: 7/25/20 10:21 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

What a great resource. I use my 16”  Type N South Bend just often enough to forget how to switch between turning and threading. Your documents will fill a sacred spot on the wall beside my lathe. Thank you for posting the instructions.

 

Dan Beeker

 

PureUnobtanium.com

Indiana University - retired

 


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

Dan Beeker
 

What a great resource. I use my 16”  Type N South Bend just often enough to forget how to switch between turning and threading. Your documents will fill a sacred spot on the wall beside my lathe. Thank you for posting the instructions.

 

Dan Beeker

 

PureUnobtanium.com

Indiana University - retired

 


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

david_g4000
 

Thank you!

Dave

On 7/24/2020 4:21 PM, Jim_B wrote:
They are now in the files section Under N-Series Lathe information.

Very Professional looking. Thanks.

Jim B.



Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

Jim_B
 

They are now in the files section Under N-Series Lathe information.

Very Professional looking. Thanks.

Jim B.



--
Jim B


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

Jim_B
 

Yes I was planning on a new folder for N-Series Lathe Information. 

-8
Jim B,

On Jul 24, 2020, at 3:44 PM, david_g4000 via groups.io <dmbanwarth@...> wrote:



Jim,

Thank you for explaining that. I was confused and figured it was just my lack of knowledge on uploading. But, that makes sense that it is limited to moderators for sure.

Please find the attached for including in the files. I am sending in PDF formation. If I might suggest, perhaps the file folder should indicate that it is Model N information. There are other items I could send in the future for a more complete library on this unusual model.

Thanks very much again for your help,

Dave

On 7/24/2020 3:27 PM, Jim_B wrote:
Posting in the files section is limited to the moderators. 
We would welcome your information however. 
It is best to use PDF format
Just email it to me and I will convert it to PDF and post it. 
Thank you

-8
Jim B,

On Jul 24, 2020, at 3:12 PM, david_g4000 via groups.io <dmbanwarth@...> wrote:

If there are other Model "N" owners on this site, I would like to offer some pictorials I have put together regarding controls and settings. My model N is a 1931 13" with the push/pull apron control that i have had for about 5 years. Typical sources like "How To Run A Lathe" do not specifically address the rather unique controls on this model in much detail, so I had to learn mainly by using it and making notes, and then transferring them into a M/S Word Document. I have developed two documents, one is for turning and the other is for threading. If there is any interest from other Model N owners, please let me know. I am also hoping that others might critique the information and I could improve them. I am also interested in sharing general information about this rather rare/limited model with other owners. If I can figure out how to do it, I will upload my documents to a file on this site. Otherwise, I would be happy to send via email. Thanks for any comments.

--
Jim B
<SETTING UP LATHE FOR THREADING DMB.pdf>
<SETTING UP LATHE FOR TURNING AND FACING DMB.pdf>

--
Jim B


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

david_g4000
 

Thanks very much George - I appreciate it.

I also received a message from Jim B., a moderator who offered to post it to the files section. So, I just sent the information off to him.

In case you might have an interest, I am attaching the two documents here as well.

Thanks again,

Dave

On 7/24/2020 3:27 PM, George Meinschein wrote:
David,
You should be able to attach the documents to your email if the file upload gives you trouble.�

Thanks,
George H. Meinschein, P.E.

Meinschein Engineering Consultants, LLC
150 Brittany Drive
Freehold, NJ 07728-1500

Email:�george.meinschein@...
Direct Dial: 732-409-0778
Cell: 732-580-1736
Fax: 732-358-0369
www.meinscheinengineering.com

���

On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 3:12 PM david_g4000 via groups.io <dmbanwarth=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
If there are other Model "N" owners on this site, I would like to offer some pictorials I have put together regarding controls and settings. My model N is a 1931 13" with the push/pull apron control that i have had for about 5 years. Typical sources like "How To Run A Lathe" do not specifically address the rather unique controls on this model in much detail, so I had to learn mainly by using it and making notes, and then transferring them into a M/S Word Document. I have developed two documents, one is for turning and the other is for threading. If there is any interest from other Model N owners, please let me know. I am also hoping that others might critique the information and I could improve them. I am also interested in sharing general information about this rather rare/limited model with other owners. If I can figure out how to do it, I will upload my documents to a file on this site. Otherwise, I would be happy to send via email. Thanks for any comments.


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

david_g4000
 

Jim,

Thank you for explaining that. I was confused and figured it was just my lack of knowledge on uploading. But, that makes sense that it is limited to moderators for sure.

Please find the attached for including in the files. I am sending in PDF formation. If I might suggest, perhaps the file folder should indicate that it is Model N information. There are other items I could send in the future for a more complete library on this unusual model.

Thanks very much again for your help,

Dave

On 7/24/2020 3:27 PM, Jim_B wrote:
Posting in the files section is limited to the moderators. 
We would welcome your information however. 
It is best to use PDF format
Just email it to me and I will convert it to PDF and post it. 
Thank you

-8
Jim B,

On Jul 24, 2020, at 3:12 PM, david_g4000 via groups.io <dmbanwarth@...> wrote:

If there are other Model "N" owners on this site, I would like to offer some pictorials I have put together regarding controls and settings. My model N is a 1931 13" with the push/pull apron control that i have had for about 5 years. Typical sources like "How To Run A Lathe" do not specifically address the rather unique controls on this model in much detail, so I had to learn mainly by using it and making notes, and then transferring them into a M/S Word Document. I have developed two documents, one is for turning and the other is for threading. If there is any interest from other Model N owners, please let me know. I am also hoping that others might critique the information and I could improve them. I am also interested in sharing general information about this rather rare/limited model with other owners. If I can figure out how to do it, I will upload my documents to a file on this site. Otherwise, I would be happy to send via email. Thanks for any comments.

--
Jim B


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

Jim_B
 

Posting in the files section is limited to the moderators. 
We would welcome your information however. 
It is best to use PDF format
Just email it to me and I will convert it to PDF and post it. 
Thank you

-8
Jim B,

On Jul 24, 2020, at 3:12 PM, david_g4000 via groups.io <dmbanwarth@...> wrote:

If there are other Model "N" owners on this site, I would like to offer some pictorials I have put together regarding controls and settings. My model N is a 1931 13" with the push/pull apron control that i have had for about 5 years. Typical sources like "How To Run A Lathe" do not specifically address the rather unique controls on this model in much detail, so I had to learn mainly by using it and making notes, and then transferring them into a M/S Word Document. I have developed two documents, one is for turning and the other is for threading. If there is any interest from other Model N owners, please let me know. I am also hoping that others might critique the information and I could improve them. I am also interested in sharing general information about this rather rare/limited model with other owners. If I can figure out how to do it, I will upload my documents to a file on this site. Otherwise, I would be happy to send via email. Thanks for any comments.

--
Jim B


Re: South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

George Meinschein
 

David,
You should be able to attach the documents to your email if the file upload gives you trouble. 

Thanks,
George H. Meinschein, P.E.

Meinschein Engineering Consultants, LLC
150 Brittany Drive
Freehold, NJ 07728-1500

Email: george.meinschein@...
Direct Dial: 732-409-0778
Cell: 732-580-1736
Fax: 732-358-0369
www.meinscheinengineering.com

   


On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 3:12 PM david_g4000 via groups.io <dmbanwarth=verizon.net@groups.io> wrote:
If there are other Model "N" owners on this site, I would like to offer some pictorials I have put together regarding controls and settings. My model N is a 1931 13" with the push/pull apron control that i have had for about 5 years. Typical sources like "How To Run A Lathe" do not specifically address the rather unique controls on this model in much detail, so I had to learn mainly by using it and making notes, and then transferring them into a M/S Word Document. I have developed two documents, one is for turning and the other is for threading. If there is any interest from other Model N owners, please let me know. I am also hoping that others might critique the information and I could improve them. I am also interested in sharing general information about this rather rare/limited model with other owners. If I can figure out how to do it, I will upload my documents to a file on this site. Otherwise, I would be happy to send via email. Thanks for any comments.


South Bend Model "N" Owners - Resources

david_g4000
 

If there are other Model "N" owners on this site, I would like to offer some pictorials I have put together regarding controls and settings. My model N is a 1931 13" with the push/pull apron control that i have had for about 5 years. Typical sources like "How To Run A Lathe" do not specifically address the rather unique controls on this model in much detail, so I had to learn mainly by using it and making notes, and then transferring them into a M/S Word Document. I have developed two documents, one is for turning and the other is for threading. If there is any interest from other Model N owners, please let me know. I am also hoping that others might critique the information and I could improve them. I am also interested in sharing general information about this rather rare/limited model with other owners. If I can figure out how to do it, I will upload my documents to a file on this site. Otherwise, I would be happy to send via email. Thanks for any comments.


Re: reverse tumbler gears

Mark Z
 

These are the 16" ones.  I am tempted to be a guinea pig.....

16" gears - ebay
--
1969 16" x 6' South Bend Lathe
Garage full of old Mopars........


Re: reverse tumbler gears

david pennington
 

Thanks, Ken. I picked up some good tips from your post.

-------- Original message --------
From: ken campbell <deltainc@...>
Date: 7/23/20 13:54 (GMT-07:00)
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] reverse tumbler gears

on my 13 incher,  i use black chain oil on my gears and gear shafts ...
it sticks ...and contains moly, for extra lube.  the moly embeds in the
metal and is not a bad dry lube all by itself.  i even spray the quick
change gears from under the box.

do not use it in the wick lubers though ... it is more a grease than
light oil and won't wick.  i use mobil products for the wicks.

i take my spindle out about once a year and inspect the bearings ... i
work some moly into the spindle bearings before i replace the spindle
... 18 years so far and the bearings look like new.

oh, the bad news .. this black stuff is dirty and persistent .... and
stains everything.  remove it from your hands with soap and water .

oh, adjust the backlash by running a piece of copy paper between the
gears as you tighten them ... you get about 2 to 3 thousandth
clearance.  better slightly too much than no clearance.




Re: reverse tumbler gears

ken campbell
 

on my 13 incher,  i use black chain oil on my gears and gear shafts ... it sticks ...and contains moly, for extra lube.  the moly embeds in the metal and is not a bad dry lube all by itself.  i even spray the quick change gears from under the box.

do not use it in the wick lubers though ... it is more a grease than light oil and won't wick.  i use mobil products for the wicks.

i take my spindle out about once a year and inspect the bearings ... i work some moly into the spindle bearings before i replace the spindle ... 18 years so far and the bearings look like new.

oh, the bad news .. this black stuff is dirty and persistent .... and stains everything.  remove it from your hands with soap and water .

oh, adjust the backlash by running a piece of copy paper between the gears as you tighten them ... you get about 2 to 3 thousandth clearance.  better slightly too much than no clearance.