Date   

Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

phillip <pepolk@...>
 

I found a box full of bushing burnishing tools on the internet and bought them , they were #2 Morse and are machinable , and my creativity made use of them. it was a very inexpensive source for #2 shanks. 
'



To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
From: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 2016 20:43:57 +0000
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 

Hey Bob

While I'd like to get rid of that  #2MT 1/2-20 arbor, you might also want to take a look at:


just in case that is more suitable for your task. 

I'll bring the the arbor to work tomorrow, give me a call if/when you decide to come to town.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman


From: "mark.jonkman@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: "southbendlathe"
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 8:26:29 AM
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 

It will have to be tomorrow (Wed) as I just read the email now. I'll set  a reminder on my phone to go grab it when I get home.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman


From: "Robert Blodinger w4npx@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: "southbendlathe"
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 3:42:17 AM
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 


Mark, you always wind up with great solutions.  I thought something was wrong when I setup the .070 offset but should have followed thru after the first couple of cuts.  Jim B's idea if fine but my piece is already tapered and I would have to start from scratch again.  Looks like you win.  I will be in town tomorrow but not till mid afternoon and will give you a call.  Hope this gets to out  in time to bring one of those Threaded MT 2 pieces with you, no problem if it is the next day.

I may have screwed up tonight as I made a bad guess using a formula for set over when you know the length of the total part and the diameter of each end of the tapered part, now have about. .9 or so left on the big end and down to .72 on the small end, but my taper was too much. I decided I better quit and do it your way.

Hopefully your threaded pieces have threads I have a tap for, or guess I can take the threads off and bore the end of a rod and lock title them on so the whole thing is exactly positioned and the same length as my half finished part.

Thanks again,

Bob

I

2


On Jan 4, 2016, at 10:50 AM, mark.jonkman@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:

 


Hey Bob

One option might be to carefully measure your current workpiece and determine the current taper per foot based on the offset you used. Then calculate out how much less or more needs to be offset to get the correct offset and adjust accordingly. Like others have said the offset has everything to do with the length of the workpiece. If you take light cuts and if you have enough stock left to remove you can probably get a good match with a few adjustments. 

Another option might be to buy a #2 morse taper arbor with a  threaded end on it. Then either use the thread to attach the tool holding part or turn it off and use just the stub to connect to your tool holding portion.

I bought a couple of #2 morse taper arbor with a half inch thread on them (I think it was half inch thread) a couple of years ago from Victor Tool Exchange for something like $8 each (or something like that).  Since I sold my Heavy 10 two weeks ago I'll probably never use them. If you want one for say $5 let me know I can meet you on the downtown mall at lunch one day this week.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman
 

From: SOUTHBENDLATHE@... [mailto:SOUTHBENDLATHE@...]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 3:18 AM
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Subject: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 I am making a Tailstock  Tap and Die Holder with feel from a Homeshop Machinist article March-April 2015 article.

I have started to cut the MT 2 Taper.  The taper is over a length of 2.803 inches.
The article advises a Tailstock set over of .070.  I carefully centered the Tailstock with a coaxial indicator ( and I know that it was already cutting exactly on center as the 1.5 inch piece I was cutting from had just been reduced from 1 11/16 in and tas true it's whole length.  I am cutting between centers.  I first cut a half in long tang half in wide at the tail end
I checked the math of the article and came up with exactly .070 for the set over (forward ).  With an indicator on a drill Chuck in the Tailstock I moved the Tailstock forward .070 and started to reduce the 1.5 in stock up to a shoulder about 3 inches from the beginning of the taper.
I reduced the width at the Tailstock small end of the taper down to .8445 an then measured at the 2.803 station large end and found that it was down to. .893, a difference from the small end of only .0485.
My goal was to reduce the small end down to .572 per MT2 specs to get the large end at the 2.803 station of .700 as per MT2 specs, a difference over the 2.803 inches of .128.
I realized then that I must have a problem because I was getting close to my final size and figured something was wrong as I was not going to be able to get there when so close and still only a difference between the two ends of of only .0485.
 I again checked the set over and it is right on .070, also the marks on the Tailstock showing set over measure .070 apart.
So do I have a problem, and if so what do I do to get the taper correct and hopefully save the part before I go too far.
Bob

.












Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

Mark R. Jonkman
 

Hey Bob

While I'd like to get rid of that  #2MT 1/2-20 arbor, you might also want to take a look at:


just in case that is more suitable for your task. 

I'll bring the the arbor to work tomorrow, give me a call if/when you decide to come to town.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman


From: "mark.jonkman@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: "southbendlathe"
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 8:26:29 AM
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 

It will have to be tomorrow (Wed) as I just read the email now. I'll set  a reminder on my phone to go grab it when I get home.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman


From: "Robert Blodinger w4npx@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: "southbendlathe"
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 3:42:17 AM
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 


Mark, you always wind up with great solutions.  I thought something was wrong when I setup the .070 offset but should have followed thru after the first couple of cuts.  Jim B's idea if fine but my piece is already tapered and I would have to start from scratch again.  Looks like you win.  I will be in town tomorrow but not till mid afternoon and will give you a call.  Hope this gets to out  in time to bring one of those Threaded MT 2 pieces with you, no problem if it is the next day.

I may have screwed up tonight as I made a bad guess using a formula for set over when you know the length of the total part and the diameter of each end of the tapered part, now have about. .9 or so left on the big end and down to .72 on the small end, but my taper was too much. I decided I better quit and do it your way.

Hopefully your threaded pieces have threads I have a tap for, or guess I can take the threads off and bore the end of a rod and lock title them on so the whole thing is exactly positioned and the same length as my half finished part.

Thanks again,

Bob

I

2


On Jan 4, 2016, at 10:50 AM, mark.jonkman@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:

 


Hey Bob

One option might be to carefully measure your current workpiece and determine the current taper per foot based on the offset you used. Then calculate out how much less or more needs to be offset to get the correct offset and adjust accordingly. Like others have said the offset has everything to do with the length of the workpiece. If you take light cuts and if you have enough stock left to remove you can probably get a good match with a few adjustments. 

Another option might be to buy a #2 morse taper arbor with a  threaded end on it. Then either use the thread to attach the tool holding part or turn it off and use just the stub to connect to your tool holding portion.

I bought a couple of #2 morse taper arbor with a half inch thread on them (I think it was half inch thread) a couple of years ago from Victor Tool Exchange for something like $8 each (or something like that).  Since I sold my Heavy 10 two weeks ago I'll probably never use them. If you want one for say $5 let me know I can meet you on the downtown mall at lunch one day this week.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman
 

From: SOUTHBENDLATHE@... [mailto:SOUTHBENDLATHE@...]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 3:18 AM
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Subject: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 I am making a Tailstock  Tap and Die Holder with feel from a Homeshop Machinist article March-April 2015 article.

I have started to cut the MT 2 Taper.  The taper is over a length of 2.803 inches.

The article advises a Tailstock set over of .070.  I carefully centered the Tailstock with a coaxial indicator ( and I know that it was already cutting exactly on center as the 1.5 inch piece I was cutting from had just been reduced from 1 11/16 in and tas true it's whole length.  I am cutting between centers.  I first cut a half in long tang half in wide at the tail end

I checked the math of the article and came up with exactly .070 for the set over (forward ).  With an indicator on a drill Chuck in the Tailstock I moved the Tailstock forward .070 and started to reduce the 1.5 in stock up to a shoulder about 3 inches from the beginning of the taper.

I reduced the width at the Tailstock small end of the taper down to .8445 an then measured at the 2.803 station large end and found that it was down to. .893, a difference from the small end of only .0485.

My goal was to reduce the small end down to .572 per MT2 specs to get the large end at the 2.803 station of .700 as per MT2 specs, a difference over the 2.803 inches of .128.

I realized then that I must have a problem because I was getting close to my final size and figured something was wrong as I was not going to be able to get there when so close and still only a difference between the two ends of of only .0485.

 I again checked the set over and it is right on .070, also the marks on the Tailstock showing set over measure .070 apart.

So do I have a problem, and if so what do I do to get the taper correct and hopefully save the part before I go too far.

Bob


.








Re: Southend Fourteen, fixed speed.

Mark R. Jonkman
 

Not sure how to get access to the Reeves drive on your machine. On my lathe the area of the stand in front of the bed is held on with a row of button head caps crews along the top and bottom of the plate. This can be seen in the first illustration of:


However, in the 1969 parts diagram:


This does not appear to be the case - at least it doesn't show the same panel being removed.

I would have to believe that either the back or the front of that stand in front or behind the bed would have to come off to access the Reeves drive because you need to be able to setup the limit switches on the Reeves drive and you have zero access because its on the other side of the motor and transmission.

Using 
page 11
The copy is ugly but the vantage point of the photo seems to be from behind and it appears to be the older (or at least different) Reeves drive motor system. There most be some kind of panel that comes off the back to give access.

Perhaps Ted (lathe man) might know more. Honestly I can only go by what my Fourteen has and the diagrams that I have access to.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman


From: "Alex Sanchez alex@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: "southbendlathe"
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2016 9:12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Southend Fourteen, fixed speed.

 

I left all the wiring intact, I didn’t want to start making changes before I powered it up.

Where is the Reves Drive and how do you access it ? 
I am assigning that is a to “other end of the motor, unfortunately I have no way to access it, the from and rear panels on my lathe are not removable or I haven’t been able to figure how to do it .

On Jan 4, 2016, at 7:33 PM, 'm. allan noah' kitno455@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:


There is a little motor that drives the open/close mechanism in the reeves drive. For some reason, that motor or its electrics seem to be fragile. You will have to dig into it.

allan

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Alex Sanchez alex@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:
 

 
I finally got my Lathe running, unfortunately the Increase/Decrease speed buttons don't work, it runs a a constant speed , approx 420 RM in low gear and a bit over 4000 in high gear. Any ideas ? 

The tach is constant at approx 450RPM
Lathe is running on a rotary 5HP PhaseCraft converter with a 5HP idler motor.




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Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

Mark R. Jonkman
 

It will have to be tomorrow (Wed) as I just read the email now. I'll set  a reminder on my phone to go grab it when I get home.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman


From: "Robert Blodinger w4npx@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" To: "southbendlathe"
Sent: Tuesday, January 5, 2016 3:42:17 AM
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 


Mark, you always wind up with great solutions.  I thought something was wrong when I setup the .070 offset but should have followed thru after the first couple of cuts.  Jim B's idea if fine but my piece is already tapered and I would have to start from scratch again.  Looks like you win.  I will be in town tomorrow but not till mid afternoon and will give you a call.  Hope this gets to out  in time to bring one of those Threaded MT 2 pieces with you, no problem if it is the next day.

I may have screwed up tonight as I made a bad guess using a formula for set over when you know the length of the total part and the diameter of each end of the tapered part, now have about. .9 or so left on the big end and down to .72 on the small end, but my taper was too much. I decided I better quit and do it your way.

Hopefully your threaded pieces have threads I have a tap for, or guess I can take the threads off and bore the end of a rod and lock title them on so the whole thing is exactly positioned and the same length as my half finished part.

Thanks again,

Bob

I

2


On Jan 4, 2016, at 10:50 AM, mark.jonkman@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:

 


Hey Bob

One option might be to carefully measure your current workpiece and determine the current taper per foot based on the offset you used. Then calculate out how much less or more needs to be offset to get the correct offset and adjust accordingly. Like others have said the offset has everything to do with the length of the workpiece. If you take light cuts and if you have enough stock left to remove you can probably get a good match with a few adjustments. 

Another option might be to buy a #2 morse taper arbor with a  threaded end on it. Then either use the thread to attach the tool holding part or turn it off and use just the stub to connect to your tool holding portion.

I bought a couple of #2 morse taper arbor with a half inch thread on them (I think it was half inch thread) a couple of years ago from Victor Tool Exchange for something like $8 each (or something like that).  Since I sold my Heavy 10 two weeks ago I'll probably never use them. If you want one for say $5 let me know I can meet you on the downtown mall at lunch one day this week.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman
 

From: SOUTHBENDLATHE@... [mailto:SOUTHBENDLATHE@...]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 3:18 AM
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Subject: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 I am making a Tailstock  Tap and Die Holder with feel from a Homeshop Machinist article March-April 2015 article.

I have started to cut the MT 2 Taper.  The taper is over a length of 2.803 inches.

The article advises a Tailstock set over of .070.  I carefully centered the Tailstock with a coaxial indicator ( and I know that it was already cutting exactly on center as the 1.5 inch piece I was cutting from had just been reduced from 1 11/16 in and tas true it's whole length.  I am cutting between centers.  I first cut a half in long tang half in wide at the tail end

I checked the math of the article and came up with exactly .070 for the set over (forward ).  With an indicator on a drill Chuck in the Tailstock I moved the Tailstock forward .070 and started to reduce the 1.5 in stock up to a shoulder about 3 inches from the beginning of the taper.

I reduced the width at the Tailstock small end of the taper down to .8445 an then measured at the 2.803 station large end and found that it was down to. .893, a difference from the small end of only .0485.

My goal was to reduce the small end down to .572 per MT2 specs to get the large end at the 2.803 station of .700 as per MT2 specs, a difference over the 2.803 inches of .128.

I realized then that I must have a problem because I was getting close to my final size and figured something was wrong as I was not going to be able to get there when so close and still only a difference between the two ends of of only .0485.

 I again checked the set over and it is right on .070, also the marks on the Tailstock showing set over measure .070 apart.

So do I have a problem, and if so what do I do to get the taper correct and hopefully save the part before I go too far.

Bob


.







Re: on bed design.

Gregg Eshelman
 

On 1/5/2016 1:17 AM, john kling jkling222@yahoo.com [SOUTHBENDLATHE] wrote:


Looking at pictures of Hardinge lathes that have what looks somewhat
like a wide flat bed, I see that they have angles on both the front and
back side. In a sense this like having a single inverted V - with
several inches of metal where the peak would otherwise be. So I will
take the Hardinge off of the precision flat bed lathes. I have seen
pictures of 1900 Drummond lathes with a tube type bed. The pictures do
not reveal a slot in the "tube" - which I assume must be there to make
any sense as a design.
Before Hardinge went to the dovetail bed they used a flat bed with outward sloping sides and a slot down the middle. Commonly called a split bed. The exact same profile was used on at least two other makes of lathe so accessories are interchangeable.

The split and dovetail bed lathes mostly do not have any kind of a conventional saddle/carriage or any type of leadscrew or power feed. Accessories like cross slides or compound slides are movable along the bed but get locked in place while in use.

The lathes are intended to work on small areas of the workpiece. When they do threading, it's with an attachment that does thread chasing with a follower on a master thread mandrel, usually mounted on the left end of the spindle. Thus they cannot do things like cut long tapers or very long threads. Nor can they easily make full length turning cuts for doing things like rounding rough stock. Usually they're fitted with collets in the spindle for starting with smooth stock.

Some of the Hardinge lathes with dovetail bed have power feed, and the most desirable HLV-H model can also do threading without a chaser attachment. Their earliest dovetail bed lathes were essentially the same as the split beds with a different profile on top. Same accessories but also altered for the dovetail. Some accessories for the split bed had removable alignment blocks that could be swapped for ones to fit the dovetail.


Re: on bed design.

eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

Round bed Drummonds have a slot at the bottom of the tube, and the leadscrew is inside it.  There always seem to be a few on ebay UK.  Probably controversial, but I'd put them in the category of "exhibit" rather than "tool" nowadays, although it is fair to say that a great many were made and sold and doubtless did good work.  Many had treadle drive.  My first lathe work was on a later flat bed Drummond.  Drummond eventually were bought out by Myford.

Eddie




From: "john kling jkling222@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: "SOUTHBENDLATHE@..."
Sent: Tuesday, 5 January 2016, 8:17
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] on bed design.

 
Looking at pictures of Hardinge lathes that have what looks somewhat like a wide flat bed, I see that they have angles on both the front and back side. In a sense this like having a single inverted V  - with several inches of metal where the peak would otherwise be. So I will take the Hardinge off of the precision flat bed lathes. I have seen pictures of 1900 Drummond lathes with a tube type bed. The pictures do not reveal a slot in the "tube" - which I assume must be there to make any sense as a design.



Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

I made a centre to fit the headstock on our Broadbent 18" centre height (that's 36" in American) x 10' between centres Broadbent using the compound slide on the Colchester Triumph 2000 (about 7.5" centre height).  I turned between centres without setting the tailstock over.  I had to have 2 bites at it to get the length of travel, but I removed a layer of metal between the 2 ends I was working on, so it contacts on the 2 end sections only, over about 3" each end.  I blued and wobbled and kept adjusting the compound till it was right.  This involved a lot of running backwards & forwards between the 2 lathes carrying a c20kg lump.  I have no idea what the actual angle was.  The component diameter was between 4 & 5 inches.  The last whisker was taken off with emery cloth.  I made a drawbar to secure it in place, since it sticks out a long way for specific jobs, and this enabled me to put the point on while it was in situ on the Broadbent.  The actual point is a grade 10.9  24mm bolt locknutted in place, and this means I can unscrew it and fit an even longer point when turning a set of wheels (carefully!) which have a double crankpin + return crank and eccentric crank for a loco with outside valve gear.  A light trim of the point is made each time this change is made.

My point is:  Forget trying to set accurately by calculation, calculate somewhere near, then fiddle with it till it's right.  Maybe make a chuck-away soft piece first to achieve the set up.  Maybe make several once it's set.  Morse & other tapers can have a non contacting gap in the middle.  (And yes, I do happen to have MT2 & 3 reamers in the cupboard in case a taper slips.)

Eddie




From: "john Losch johnlosch32@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]"
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Cc: john Losch
Sent: Tuesday, 5 January 2016, 1:11
Subject: Re: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 
1/4/16

to all,

I agree with the procedure Lou has posted below.  I wrote a similar description of making tapers a few days ago, and I later discovered an error in what I wrote.  The compound travel is insufficient for most of the primary lengths of Morse, B&S, Jarno, and whatever that are used in our SB and similar other lathes of comparable sizes.  I made the collet closer I use in my 9SB longer ago than I want to remember, and I am still using it.  The taper length for a Morse #3 is shorter on a closer than for a conventional Morse taper.  I think the testing procedure I suggested for final fitting of tapers using Prussian blue is advisable.  

I continue to make tapers to fit an ancient Waltham tool maker’s lathe that came out of the Waltham Watch Factory, as well as tapers for a German Watchmaker’s jeweling tailstock of unknown origin, both of which are still in use in my shop.   The technique is fine for any tapers of less than 2.5” long.  That is the travel of the compound on my SB 9” lathe.  I apologize if I misled readers: you will not be able to make a full-length Morse or similar taper using the compound to turn that length.  No problem with shorter tapers.

Lou’s suggestion about moving the carriage and then trying to recover the depth of cut on a longer taper might work.  I have never tried it.  Has anyone else “been there, done that?"

Jcl





On Jan 4, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Lou McIntosh lhm@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:


I've learned a lot from reading this discussion, and I'm grateful for all these posts.

Having said that, http://littlemachineshop.COM part number 2394 costs $13 and might be a useful starting point for MT2 projects ...

and I've had good luck cutting MT2 and MT3 by chucking and centering a "known good" piece and adjusting the compound until an indicator at exact center height can remain within 1 or 2 tenths while the compound is cranked from one end of its range to the other.

... I don't use tailstock set-over on anything finicky because my tailstock stops being coincident with spindle
axis as soon as I unlock it or advance it.  Learned this on 22" lathes at work, but it's just as valid on my SB9.  

... I make accurate taper cuts with the compound because it is so much quicker to set up than tailstock set-over, and the limitations on accuracy are (1) the limitations of my indicator and (2) how accurately I can set my indicator (and later, my cutting tool) to actual axis height over ways.  

... I'm lazy, and I can do this compound setup faster than I can fool around with tailstock set-over.

...  Q.  So, what if length of taper exceeds compound travel?

...  A.  Fiddle with the cross slide until tool is again in contact with work;  at least I know that my taper setting is still correct, even when saddle is moved.

... EVERYONE's mileage offends, so I apologize to everyone who doesn't think this post is useful.  I'll still use it because I don't know any better. 












Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

Robert H. Blodinger
 

Mark, you always wind up with great solutions.  I thought something was wrong when I setup the .070 offset but should have followed thru after the first couple of cuts.  Jim B's idea if fine but my piece is already tapered and I would have to start from scratch again.  Looks like you win.  I will be in town tomorrow but not till mid afternoon and will give you a call.  Hope this gets to out  in time to bring one of those Threaded MT 2 pieces with you, no problem if it is the next day.

I may have screwed up tonight as I made a bad guess using a formula for set over when you know the length of the total part and the diameter of each end of the tapered part, now have about. .9 or so left on the big end and down to .72 on the small end, but my taper was too much. I decided I better quit and do it your way.

Hopefully your threaded pieces have threads I have a tap for, or guess I can take the threads off and bore the end of a rod and lock title them on so the whole thing is exactly positioned and the same length as my half finished part.

Thanks again,

Bob

I

2


On Jan 4, 2016, at 10:50 AM, mark.jonkman@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:

 

Hey Bob

One option might be to carefully measure your current workpiece and determine the current taper per foot based on the offset you used. Then calculate out how much less or more needs to be offset to get the correct offset and adjust accordingly. Like others have said the offset has everything to do with the length of the workpiece. If you take light cuts and if you have enough stock left to remove you can probably get a good match with a few adjustments. 

Another option might be to buy a #2 morse taper arbor with a  threaded end on it. Then either use the thread to attach the tool holding part or turn it off and use just the stub to connect to your tool holding portion.

I bought a couple of #2 morse taper arbor with a half inch thread on them (I think it was half inch thread) a couple of years ago from Victor Tool Exchange for something like $8 each (or something like that).  Since I sold my Heavy 10 two weeks ago I'll probably never use them. If you want one for say $5 let me know I can meet you on the downtown mall at lunch one day this week.

Sincerely
Mark R. Jonkman
 

From: SOUTHBENDLATHE@... [mailto:SOUTHBENDLATHE@...]
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 3:18 AM
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Subject: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 I am making a Tailstock  Tap and Die Holder with feel from a Homeshop Machinist article March-April 2015 article.

I have started to cut the MT 2 Taper.  The taper is over a length of 2.803 inches.

The article advises a Tailstock set over of .070.  I carefully centered the Tailstock with a coaxial indicator ( and I know that it was already cutting exactly on center as the 1.5 inch piece I was cutting from had just been reduced from 1 11/16 in and tas true it's whole length.  I am cutting between centers.  I first cut a half in long tang half in wide at the tail end

I checked the math of the article and came up with exactly .070 for the set over (forward ).  With an indicator on a drill Chuck in the Tailstock I moved the Tailstock forward .070 and started to reduce the 1.5 in stock up to a shoulder about 3 inches from the beginning of the taper.

I reduced the width at the Tailstock small end of the taper down to .8445 an then measured at the 2.803 station large end and found that it was down to. .893, a difference from the small end of only .0485.

My goal was to reduce the small end down to .572 per MT2 specs to get the large end at the 2.803 station of .700 as per MT2 specs, a difference over the 2.803 inches of .128.

I realized then that I must have a problem because I was getting close to my final size and figured something was wrong as I was not going to be able to get there when so close and still only a difference between the two ends of of only .0485.

 I again checked the set over and it is right on .070, also the marks on the Tailstock showing set over measure .070 apart.

So do I have a problem, and if so what do I do to get the taper correct and hopefully save the part before I go too far.

Bob


.



Re: on bed design.

john kling
 

Looking at pictures of Hardinge lathes that have what looks somewhat like a wide flat bed, I see that they have angles on both the front and back side. In a sense this like having a single inverted V  - with several inches of metal where the peak would otherwise be. So I will take the Hardinge off of the precision flat bed lathes. I have seen pictures of 1900 Drummond lathes with a tube type bed. The pictures do not reveal a slot in the "tube" - which I assume must be there to make any sense as a design.


Re: on bed design.

Anthony Rhodes
 

John,
 
I'm coming to this quite late due to being busy with other matters. I've read your message and the 6 responses, and I'm interested in machine tool design, so I thought I might contribute.
 
The issue at hand is, firstly, to control the location of the cutter relative to the work piece with as much precision as possible. Where there may be a loss of such precision, it is preferable to take the loss where it will have the least detrimental effect on required accuracy of the work piece.
 
There is a mathematical benefit in a narrow guide way, On most lathes with inverted V-ways there is one such for the carriage and one different one for the tailstock. The narrow guide way, by its geometry, reduces the amount of skewing of the controlled element, ie the carriage or tailstock, as it is traversed along the bed. Even with vertical wear of the V-way the carriage or tailstock tend to stay at the same distance from the axial center of the bed. It has been calculated that vertical displacement below or above the axial center of the work piece has much less effect on the accuracy of machining, more effect on small diameter work pieces and much less on large diameter ones.
 
The above being said, there are many forms of bedways, dove tail and flat (or box ways in the modern terminology) being a couple of them, There are also single Vs, triple Vs, and four Vs, in addition to the common two V pattern. Common examples are small Asian lathes, as well as the AA 6" for single Vs, Monarch 10EE and Rivett 1020 for 2 Vs, South Bend and it's clones for 3 Vs, and American Standard for 4 Vs. Atlas and Myford use flat ways and Hardinge uses dove tails. There are, of course, many more for each form. There are also various displacements of the bedways. Slant beds are pretty well known, which provide benefits in clearing the bed and carriage of chips and lubricants or collants, and while I'm not aware of over head bedways for the carriage, I do know of such for the tailstock.
 
Each form of bed had some benefit in the eyes of the designer and manufacturer. In the end, there is probably more benefit in the choices of and processes used on the materials, and the care taken in precision of manufacture, than all the theoretical benefits from geometry. And care in use, maintenance, and adjustment will do more, than anything done before installation in the shop, to provide superior performance over a long, useful life. Ham fisted and ignorant people can destroy the best machine in a couple of days, whereas a considerate, knowledgeable user can make the lowliest machine turn out quality work over a long time, far beyond the reasonable expectations placed upon it from the day it left the manufacturer.
 
Anthony
Berkeley, Calif.
*************************************************

In a message dated Thu Dec 31, 2015 2:03 pm (PST), jkling222 writes:
Most lathe have v ways (or combinations of v and flat ways). A few inexpensive lathes (such as Atlas) used flat beds. I imagine that this is a cheaper design to manufacture. A big mill and a big surface grinder would seen to provide efficiency in manufacture. But some precision lathes also have flat beds. So the design evidently is not all about cost savings.

Is there a reason that the majority of manufactures of lathes chose v ways?


Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

Jim
 

Jcl,

I had the opportunity to try this a couple weeks ago. I was trying to re-create the missing ball handle on a Sheldon shaper. The tapered shaft between the balls was too long for the travel of the compound slide on my SB9, so I tried picking up the taper after moving the carriage. It worked well enough for my project, but I doubt that it would have been close enough if I'd had to have done it for an MT3 taper and had to check the fit with Prussian blue. I am sure it is possible, but it would take me more than a single try to pull it off.

Hopefully, the image of the ball handle will be shown below. If not, it's located at http://www.benchtest.com/images/ball_handle8.jpg




Regards,

Jim F.


On 01/04/2016 08:11 PM, john Losch johnlosch32@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] wrote:
 
1/4/16

to all,

I agree with the procedure Lou has posted below.  I wrote a similar description of making tapers a few days ago, and I later discovered an error in what I wrote.  The compound travel is insufficient for most of the primary lengths of Morse, B&S, Jarno, and whatever that are used in our SB and similar other lathes of comparable sizes.  I made the collet closer I use in my 9SB longer ago than I want to remember, and I am still using it.  The taper length for a Morse #3 is shorter on a closer than for a conventional Morse taper.  I think the testing procedure I suggested for final fitting of tapers using Prussian blue is advisable.  

I continue to make tapers to fit an ancient Waltham tool maker’s lathe that came out of the Waltham Watch Factory, as well as tapers for a German Watchmaker’s jeweling tailstock of unknown origin, both of which are still in use in my shop.   The technique is fine for any tapers of less than 2.5” long.  That is the travel of the compound on my SB 9” lathe.  I apologize if I misled readers: you will not be able to make a full-length Morse or similar taper using the compound to turn that length.  No problem with shorter tapers.

Lou’s suggestion about moving the carriage and then trying to recover the depth of cut on a longer taper might work.  I have never tried it.  Has anyone else “been there, done that?"

Jcl





Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

Lou
 

Hail, brothers and sisters of the Guild.  I am forever in your debt.


As John has suggested, ...

Let's start with a Little-Known Fact:  a single rather heavy layer of Magic Marker(tm) on a workpiece (on *my* lathe, at 33° F. ambient, brrrr!  But this is Maine) is equivalent to about 0.0003" on the diameter (or 0.00015" on the radius) of my workpiece.  Let's advance, charitably, to the {Lou-Boast} that my SB9, cranked down tight, can achieve (let us say) a repeatability of 0.001" on radius.

So, if I have adjusted my compound to within (e.g.) 0.001" per 2.000" of compound travel with regard to the desired taper ...

... then I naively believe that I can "cut off the Magic Marker(tm) layer" across at least 5" of tapered over-all length and still be within 0.002" of the "target" taper/ft. when I'm done ... not bad for a pre-JFK-era SB9, and within the range of what my arthritic pre-JFK-era hands and eyes can refine with 180x sandpaper, a 2nd-cut file, and an appeal to Journeyman's Luck.

After that ... when I have blue-checked and "adjusted" my work with 600-grit abrasive and performed the necessary rituals and sacrifices ... it usually turns out that I have an 80% blue-check against my standard.  I can live with that, on an MT2/MT3 taper. 

Everyone's mileage and requirements vary, but this is what's true for me.

We now return you. 

On Jan 4, 2016 8:11 PM, "john Losch johnlosch32@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:
>
>  
>
> 1/4/16
>
> to all,
>
> I agree with the procedure Lou has posted below.  I wrote a similar description of making tapers a few days ago, and I later discovered an error in what I wrote.  The compound travel is insufficient for most of the primary lengths of Morse, B&S, Jarno, and whatever that are used in our SB and similar other lathes of comparable sizes.  I made the collet closer I use in my 9SB longer ago than I want to remember, and I am still using it.  The taper length for a Morse #3 is shorter on a closer than for a conventional Morse taper.  I think the testing procedure I suggested for final fitting of tapers using Prussian blue is advisable.  
>
> I continue to make tapers to fit an ancient Waltham tool maker’s lathe that came out of the Waltham Watch Factory, as well as tapers for a German Watchmaker’s jeweling tailstock of unknown origin, both of which are still in use in my shop.   The technique is fine for any tapers of less than 2.5” long.  That is the travel of the compound on my SB 9” lathe.  I apologize if I misled readers: you will not be able to make a full-length Morse or similar taper using the compound to turn that length.  No problem with shorter tapers.
>
> Lou’s suggestion about moving the carriage and then trying to recover the depth of cut on a longer taper might work.  I have never tried it.  Has anyone else “been there, done that?"
>
> Jcl


Re: Southend Fourteen, fixed speed.

Alex Sanchez <alex@...>
 

I left all the wiring intact, I didn’t want to start making changes before I powered it up.
Where is the Reves Drive and how do you access it ? 
I am assigning that is a to “other end of the motor, unfortunately I have no way to access it, the from and rear panels on my lathe are not removable or I haven’t been able to figure how to do it .

On Jan 4, 2016, at 7:33 PM, 'm. allan noah' kitno455@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:


There is a little motor that drives the open/close mechanism in the reeves drive. For some reason, that motor or its electrics seem to be fragile. You will have to dig into it.

allan

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Alex Sanchez alex@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:
 

 
I finally got my Lathe running, unfortunately the Increase/Decrease speed buttons don't work, it runs a a constant speed , approx 420 RM in low gear and a bit over 4000 in high gear. Any ideas ? 

The tach is constant at approx 450RPM
Lathe is running on a rotary 5HP PhaseCraft converter with a 5HP idler motor.




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-- 
"well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge of my hand"



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Re: Southend Fourteen, fixed speed.

Mark R. Jonkman
 

Did you change any of the wiring at all other than to connect it to the rotary phase converter?

By default the power to the circuit that controls the speed control takes its power off 1L1 (2L1 after the on/off switch) and completes the circuit it via 1L3.

I'm assuming that you have the button version vs the lever for changing speeds. I'd check on both sides if the buttons to make sure power is going through them. Then I'd check the DC motor for power while some changes the buttons. 

Not sure 4000 rpm is correct that seems awful high as does 400 on the low speed. 

Also on a rotary phase converter I'm told one of the legs has higher voltage or something. Might want to change the lines coming to different terminals on the plug to see if different.

I isolated the controls into a separate single phase input but that shouldn't be needed for rotary phase converter (i used a vfd).

Did any of the wiring diagrams i posted match up?

Mark

On Jan 4, 2016, at 8:33 PM, 'm. allan noah' kitno455@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:

 

There is a little motor that drives the open/close mechanism in the reeves drive. For some reason, that motor or its electrics seem to be fragile. You will have to dig into it.

allan

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Alex Sanchez alex@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:
 

 
I finally got my Lathe running, unfortunately the Increase/Decrease speed buttons don't work, it runs a a constant speed , approx 420 RM in low gear and a bit over 4000 in high gear. Any ideas ? 

The tach is constant at approx 450RPM
Lathe is running on a rotary 5HP PhaseCraft converter with a 5HP idler motor.




Disclaimer

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the recipient(s). If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute, copy or alter this email. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and might not represent those of the company. Warning: Although the company has taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this email, the company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this email or attachments.




--
"well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge of my hand"


Re: Southend Fourteen, fixed speed.

m. allan noah
 

There is a little motor that drives the open/close mechanism in the reeves drive. For some reason, that motor or its electrics seem to be fragile. You will have to dig into it.

allan

On Mon, Jan 4, 2016 at 8:12 PM, Alex Sanchez alex@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:
 

 
I finally got my Lathe running, unfortunately the Increase/Decrease speed buttons don't work, it runs a a constant speed , approx 420 RM in low gear and a bit over 4000 in high gear. Any ideas ? 

The tach is constant at approx 450RPM
Lathe is running on a rotary 5HP PhaseCraft converter with a 5HP idler motor.




Disclaimer

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the recipient(s). If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute, copy or alter this email. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and might not represent those of the company. Warning: Although the company has taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this email, the company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this email or attachments.




--
"well, I stand up next to a mountain- and I chop it down with the edge of my hand"


Southend Fourteen, fixed speed.

Alex Sanchez <alex@...>
 

 
I finally got my Lathe running, unfortunately the Increase/Decrease speed buttons don't work, it runs a a constant speed , approx 420 RM in low gear and a bit over 4000 in high gear. Any ideas ? 

The tach is constant at approx 450RPM
Lathe is running on a rotary 5HP PhaseCraft converter with a 5HP idler motor.




Disclaimer

This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the recipient(s). If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute, copy or alter this email. Any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and might not represent those of the company. Warning: Although the company has taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this email, the company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this email or attachments.


Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

John Losch
 

1/4/16

to all,

I agree with the procedure Lou has posted below.  I wrote a similar description of making tapers a few days ago, and I later discovered an error in what I wrote.  The compound travel is insufficient for most of the primary lengths of Morse, B&S, Jarno, and whatever that are used in our SB and similar other lathes of comparable sizes.  I made the collet closer I use in my 9SB longer ago than I want to remember, and I am still using it.  The taper length for a Morse #3 is shorter on a closer than for a conventional Morse taper.  I think the testing procedure I suggested for final fitting of tapers using Prussian blue is advisable.  

I continue to make tapers to fit an ancient Waltham tool maker’s lathe that came out of the Waltham Watch Factory, as well as tapers for a German Watchmaker’s jeweling tailstock of unknown origin, both of which are still in use in my shop.   The technique is fine for any tapers of less than 2.5” long.  That is the travel of the compound on my SB 9” lathe.  I apologize if I misled readers: you will not be able to make a full-length Morse or similar taper using the compound to turn that length.  No problem with shorter tapers.

Lou’s suggestion about moving the carriage and then trying to recover the depth of cut on a longer taper might work.  I have never tried it.  Has anyone else “been there, done that?"

Jcl





On Jan 4, 2016, at 6:51 PM, Lou McIntosh lhm@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE] <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...> wrote:


I've learned a lot from reading this discussion, and I'm grateful for all these posts.

Having said that, http://littlemachineshop.COM part number 2394 costs $13 and might be a useful starting point for MT2 projects ...

and I've had good luck cutting MT2 and MT3 by chucking and centering a "known good" piece and adjusting the compound until an indicator at exact center height can remain within 1 or 2 tenths while the compound is cranked from one end of its range to the other.

... I don't use tailstock set-over on anything finicky because my tailstock stops being coincident with spindle
axis as soon as I unlock it or advance it.  Learned this on 22" lathes at work, but it's just as valid on my SB9.  

... I make accurate taper cuts with the compound because it is so much quicker to set up than tailstock set-over, and the limitations on accuracy are (1) the limitations of my indicator and (2) how accurately I can set my indicator (and later, my cutting tool) to actual axis height over ways.  

... I'm lazy, and I can do this compound setup faster than I can fool around with tailstock set-over.

...  Q.  So, what if length of taper exceeds compound travel?

...  A.  Fiddle with the cross slide until tool is again in contact with work;  at least I know that my taper setting is still correct, even when saddle is moved.

... EVERYONE's mileage offends, so I apologize to everyone who doesn't think this post is useful.  I'll still use it because I don't know any better. 










Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

rlm_mcv
 

I totally agree with your method Lou.  It is so much simpler and my preferred method also in the past.  Fast simple easy.




From: "Lou McIntosh lhm@... [SOUTHBENDLATHE]" <SOUTHBENDLATHE@...>
To: SOUTHBENDLATHE@...
Sent: Monday, January 4, 2016 5:51 PM
Subject: RE: [SOUTHBENDLATHE] Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

 
I've learned a lot from reading this discussion, and I'm grateful for all these posts.

Having said that, http://littlemachineshop.COM part number 2394 costs $13 and might be a useful starting point for MT2 projects ...

and I've had good luck cutting MT2 and MT3 by chucking and centering a "known good" piece and adjusting the compound until an indicator at exact center height can remain within 1 or 2 tenths while the compound is cranked from one end of its range to the other.

... I don't use tailstock set-over on anything finicky because my tailstock stops being coincident with spindle
axis as soon as I unlock it or advance it.  Learned this on 22" lathes at work, but it's just as valid on my SB9. 

... I make accurate taper cuts with the compound because it is so much quicker to set up than tailstock set-over, and the limitations on accuracy are (1) the limitations of my indicator and (2) how accurately I can set my indicator (and later, my cutting tool) to actual axis height over ways. 

... I'm lazy, and I can do this compound setup faster than I can fool around with tailstock set-over.

...  Q.  So, what if length of taper exceeds compound travel?

...  A.  Fiddle with the cross slide until tool is again in contact with work;  at least I know that my taper setting is still correct, even when saddle is moved.

... EVERYONE's mileage offends, so I apologize to everyone who doesn't think this post is useful.  I'll still use it because I don't know any better.









Re: Help needed to cut MT 2 taper for Tailstock Die Holder

Lou
 

I've learned a lot from reading this discussion, and I'm grateful for all these posts.

Having said that, http://littlemachineshop.COM part number 2394 costs $13 and might be a useful starting point for MT2 projects ...

and I've had good luck cutting MT2 and MT3 by chucking and centering a "known good" piece and adjusting the compound until an indicator at exact center height can remain within 1 or 2 tenths while the compound is cranked from one end of its range to the other.

... I don't use tailstock set-over on anything finicky because my tailstock stops being coincident with spindle
axis as soon as I unlock it or advance it.  Learned this on 22" lathes at work, but it's just as valid on my SB9. 

... I make accurate taper cuts with the compound because it is so much quicker to set up than tailstock set-over, and the limitations on accuracy are (1) the limitations of my indicator and (2) how accurately I can set my indicator (and later, my cutting tool) to actual axis height over ways. 

... I'm lazy, and I can do this compound setup faster than I can fool around with tailstock set-over.

...  Q.  So, what if length of taper exceeds compound travel?

...  A.  Fiddle with the cross slide until tool is again in contact with work;  at least I know that my taper setting is still correct, even when saddle is moved.

... EVERYONE's mileage offends, so I apologize to everyone who doesn't think this post is useful.  I'll still use it because I don't know any better.








Re: Rebuilding a South Bend lathe

carbure2003
 

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