Date   

Re: SouthBendLathe For Sale

jonwoellhaf
 

Beautiful lathe. I wish I were closer (Utah). $1000 is too little, I think. Someone is going to be delighted!
 

From: Ron Pare
Sent: June 5, 2022 08:35
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: [SouthBendLathe] SouthBendLathe For Sale
 

9 inch South Bend lathe for sale, set up on original “work bench”, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, several face plates, tool posts,  and a fair amount of tooling, 120/240 single phase, good condition, 9x36” tool room model.    $1,000   anirwinw43@...   just north of Boston, MA


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

Bill in OKC too
 

Then you must have missed the last photo I posted, which had the MT3 taper in the the factory spindle adapter.

https://groups.io/g/SouthBendLathe/photo/0/17384.106421.0?p=Created%2C%2C%2C20%2C2%2C0%2C0 this link worked for me, hope it works for you.

And with that in the spindle, and a faceplate or driver plate installed, there will be very little stick-out. There will be more stickout if you make an adapter for the larger Morse tapers, but larger lathe dogs have longer tails. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Sunday, June 5, 2022, 07:35:42 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


But none of your pieces in the picture was the shorter South Bend factory adapter that was the subject of this posting.



On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 06:50:11 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


That's funny. I get the impression you missed the point of why you would. I will point out one more time that the adapter and centers I photographed are all FACTORY products. The small end is also the end that goes in to the FACTORY spindle adapter. Have a good day.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 11:43:20 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: SouthBendLathe For Sale

Ron Pare
 

Here you go.

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Andrei
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2022 10:38 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] SouthBendLathe For Sale

 

Pictures?

 


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Ron Pare <rppare@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2022 10:35:11 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: [SouthBendLathe] SouthBendLathe For Sale

 

9 inch South Bend lathe for sale, set up on original “work bench”, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, several face plates, tool posts,  and a fair amount of tooling, 120/240 single phase, good condition, 9x36” tool room model.    $1,000   anirwinw43@...   just north of Boston, MA


Re: SouthBendLathe For Sale

Andrei
 

Pictures?


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Ron Pare <rppare@...>
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2022 10:35:11 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: [SouthBendLathe] SouthBendLathe For Sale
 

9 inch South Bend lathe for sale, set up on original “work bench”, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, several face plates, tool posts,  and a fair amount of tooling, 120/240 single phase, good condition, 9x36” tool room model.    $1,000   anirwinw43@...   just north of Boston, MA


SouthBendLathe For Sale

Ron Pare
 

9 inch South Bend lathe for sale, set up on original “work bench”, 3 and 4 jaw chucks, several face plates, tool posts,  and a fair amount of tooling, 120/240 single phase, good condition, 9x36” tool room model.    $1,000   anirwinw43@...   just north of Boston, MA


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

rlm_mcv
 

My guess is they tried to get a standard center to stick out the optimal distance to use a face plate and dog?

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 09:19:34 AM CDT, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:


Now I need to go double check - I think on the 9As they left off some of the large end as well, which is why a standard mt3 center sticks out so far. Probably to keep from needing a larger spindle thread.


On 6/5/22 10:12, Davis Johnson wrote:

If they had used the smaller end it would have restricted the size of the spindle through hole.

On 6/5/22 09:57, rlm_mcv via groups.io wrote:
The spindle sleeve is shorter than the full Morse Taper.  South Bend used the larger end for gripping power and that is what I suggested a person should do when recreating one.

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 08:53:36 AM CDT, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:


I'm really not getting this argument. Shouldn't it fit both ends and everywhere in between and a little beyond is ok?

And how could anything other than putting it in small end first ever work?

On 6/5/22 07:49, Bill in OKC too via groups.io wrote:
That's funny. I get the impression you missed the point of why you would. I will point out one more time that the adapter and centers I photographed are all FACTORY products. The small end is also the end that goes in to the FACTORY spindle adapter. Have a good day.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 11:43:20 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

Davis Johnson
 

Now I need to go double check - I think on the 9As they left off some of the large end as well, which is why a standard mt3 center sticks out so far. Probably to keep from needing a larger spindle thread.


On 6/5/22 10:12, Davis Johnson wrote:

If they had used the smaller end it would have restricted the size of the spindle through hole.

On 6/5/22 09:57, rlm_mcv via groups.io wrote:
The spindle sleeve is shorter than the full Morse Taper.  South Bend used the larger end for gripping power and that is what I suggested a person should do when recreating one.

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 08:53:36 AM CDT, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:


I'm really not getting this argument. Shouldn't it fit both ends and everywhere in between and a little beyond is ok?

And how could anything other than putting it in small end first ever work?

On 6/5/22 07:49, Bill in OKC too via groups.io wrote:
That's funny. I get the impression you missed the point of why you would. I will point out one more time that the adapter and centers I photographed are all FACTORY products. The small end is also the end that goes in to the FACTORY spindle adapter. Have a good day.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 11:43:20 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

Davis Johnson
 

If they had used the smaller end it would have restricted the size of the spindle through hole.

On 6/5/22 09:57, rlm_mcv via groups.io wrote:
The spindle sleeve is shorter than the full Morse Taper.  South Bend used the larger end for gripping power and that is what I suggested a person should do when recreating one.

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 08:53:36 AM CDT, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:


I'm really not getting this argument. Shouldn't it fit both ends and everywhere in between and a little beyond is ok?

And how could anything other than putting it in small end first ever work?

On 6/5/22 07:49, Bill in OKC too via groups.io wrote:
That's funny. I get the impression you missed the point of why you would. I will point out one more time that the adapter and centers I photographed are all FACTORY products. The small end is also the end that goes in to the FACTORY spindle adapter. Have a good day.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 11:43:20 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

rlm_mcv
 

The spindle sleeve is shorter than the full Morse Taper.  South Bend used the larger end for gripping power and that is what I suggested a person should do when recreating one.

On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 08:53:36 AM CDT, Davis Johnson <davis@...> wrote:


I'm really not getting this argument. Shouldn't it fit both ends and everywhere in between and a little beyond is ok?

And how could anything other than putting it in small end first ever work?

On 6/5/22 07:49, Bill in OKC too via groups.io wrote:
That's funny. I get the impression you missed the point of why you would. I will point out one more time that the adapter and centers I photographed are all FACTORY products. The small end is also the end that goes in to the FACTORY spindle adapter. Have a good day.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 11:43:20 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

Davis Johnson
 

I'm really not getting this argument. Shouldn't it fit both ends and everywhere in between and a little beyond is ok?

And how could anything other than putting it in small end first ever work?

On 6/5/22 07:49, Bill in OKC too via groups.io wrote:
That's funny. I get the impression you missed the point of why you would. I will point out one more time that the adapter and centers I photographed are all FACTORY products. The small end is also the end that goes in to the FACTORY spindle adapter. Have a good day.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 11:43:20 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: RIP. SB 9B!

ww_big_al
 

Eddie has a many good points. For myself, before I did anything, I would talk ed the insurance company. Unless it was used for business, homeowners’ insurance will cover it. They may cover a new replacement lathe or have it evaluated/repaired at a professional shop. If it is deemed scrap, get what you can and buy it back from them.

Al

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of eddie.draper@... via groups.io
Sent: Saturday, June 4, 2022 3:32 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] RIP. SB 9B!

 

Given that the Aluminium alloy bench collapsed due to the heat, this suggests that a number of things will have happened to the materials from which the lathe is constructed:

 

Any hardened or spring steel has been annealed. If one of the machine's virtues was hardened bedways, this no longer applies.

 

Any component containing built in stresses (castings, welded fabrications) has been stress relieved and has consequently changed shape. Also, any component that was subjected to stress while hot, with the load still in place during cooling, will have changed shape. All press or shrink fits can no longer be relied upon.

 

Any material such as mild steel, copper (tube?) brass etc. that was subjected to work hardening as part of the design strength or stiffness requirement has been annealed.

 

Aluminium alloys response to heat is complicated and composition dependant.

 

All lubricants, wicks and seals have been burned away.

 

Any "monkey metal" (zinc alloys as typically used for diecasting) have had it. If the composition can be determined, items could be used to narrow the range of temperatures experienced depending on what melted and what didn't.

 

All electrical insulation can no longer be relied upon, even if it still exists. Given this and bearing damage, the motor is scrap, as is the switchgear.

 

Fasteners, including rivets, will have lost their preloads as a result of the above. Also, any high strength fasteners have been annealed (see above) so are no longer high strength.

 

Please forgive me if this comes across as a little rude, but sometimes being be cruel to be kind is the best policy. I really feel for you as the victim of a fire, and hope you have insurance. If a loss adjuster tries to bargain you down, feel free to quote my above opinions. My qualifications are in one of my first posts on this site, or I can re-supply if required.

 

And people are wittering on about paint? Sorry folks, you couldn't give me this or any part of it, once I knew it had been in a fire. I must regretfully advise that it sounds as though it is a total loss.

 

Eddie


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

rlm_mcv
 

But none of your pieces in the picture was the shorter South Bend factory adapter that was the subject of this posting.



On Sunday, June 5, 2022 at 06:50:11 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


That's funny. I get the impression you missed the point of why you would. I will point out one more time that the adapter and centers I photographed are all FACTORY products. The small end is also the end that goes in to the FACTORY spindle adapter. Have a good day.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 11:43:20 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

Bill in OKC too
 

That's funny. I get the impression you missed the point of why you would. I will point out one more time that the adapter and centers I photographed are all FACTORY products. The small end is also the end that goes in to the FACTORY spindle adapter. Have a good day.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 11:43:20 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

rlm_mcv
 

Sorry but you have missed the reasons why normally one would not make the adapter sleeve fit the small end of a Morse Taper as you previously suggested.  I am not interested in going out on a new tangent topic. Have a good day.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 11:29:03 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

Bill in OKC too
 

And sometimes you need more bearing area to hold your piece between centers to work it. Larger center with a deeper center hole from a larger center drill will give you that. If you need the smaller center, use a different spindle adapter that takes smaller centers. Let's you use a smaller center drill, too. 

And if you need a full size center to the size of the spindle taper, they make MT5 spindle centers, tough a 9" SB won't need them. Nory 10L. But a 15" or larger SB (or other brand lathe) might.

Depends on what you need, and what you have. More options gives you more versatility, most of the time. And there are ways to give a dog driver more reach. Zillions of old books at archive.org if you want to read about it. 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Saturday, June 4, 2022, 07:48:29 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

wlw19958
 

Hi There,

On Sat, Jun 4, 2022 at 06:20 PM, mike allen wrote:
I've also seen guys make their own center that they put in their chuck & they have the dog rest on one of the chuck jaws
I do this.  It makes it easy to true-up the center just before turning.
 
Good Luck!
-Blue Chip[s-
Webb


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

mike allen
 

        I've also seen guys make their own center that they put in their chuck & they have the dog rest on one of the chuck jaws . seems to work fine .

        animal

On 6/4/2022 5:47 PM, rlm_mcv via groups.io wrote:
Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: 14-1/2 spindle nose and taper

rlm_mcv
 

Bill
You can hold a rotating object better with 2 hands rather than one.  The more surface contact offered by boring to the larger diameter of the sleeve offers the same principle of griping power.  Sometimes rather than a center you could be using a cutting tool in the taper that requires gripping power.  Examples would be boring something attached to the cross slide or using as a drill press against tail stock.

Another issue was sticking out to far using the small diameter.  Another user pointed out that if your out to far dogs dont reach.  Using your body again as an example you have less control holding something at arms length than you do close to your body.  Same with the lathe there is more control and accuracy closer to the spindle bearing.

The 3rd reason for wanting the shorter configuration is maximizing the length of material that will fit in the lathe.

I might want a long center if I was leaving my chuck on for some reason but otherwise I would probably want something short for the above mentioned reasons.


On Saturday, June 4, 2022 at 07:51:59 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Not saying you shouldn't, but all of these items are factory stock. None of it is home-made. Unless you make all your own, this is about what you're going to get. Both of the ones in the photo I attached earlier are factory-made carbide-tipped centers, and both of mine need reground. I hope someday to either find or build a decent toolpost grinder so I can true them.  I do have a couple of new centers. There is also a standard for stub centers, but I didn't actually look at it, and haven't actually seen any IRL or online. 

Except that the 7x mini-lathes use a shortened MT2 tailstock center. Don't know if they conform to the standard, as I traded mine off for a couple of Unimats a while back. 

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 12:33:27 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I prefer to use the largest diameter possible to have the most grip in a taper.  I also prefer to keep things as close as possible to the spindle (least overhang), to reduce stress and amplification of a mounting run out error.  The added benefit is it gives you the greatest distance between centers too.  Your preferences and or reasons might differ from mine.  Different applications can justify different setups.

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:39:07 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Just sent the photo. It should make things clear. The adapter barely protrudes from the spindle. Mine is 3.25" long. The Morse taper sockets are 3-7/8" & 4-1/8" long according to the table I am looking at. Shank lengths are 3-7/8 & 4-7/8, and my #3 center is 5.1", and the #4 center is 6" long. The adapter is only 3-1/4 " in length, so there is a fair amount of protrusion. Another photo attached, and remember that the spindle adapter has a bit of protrusion, itself. About 1/8" on mine. Heavy 10L, so YMMV.

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 09:03:10 AM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I am having trouble with this part of your statement also. "Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end." 

The whole idea of a taper is to hold a tool or adapter.  That includes keeping it from turning within the bore.  The adapter already is only about 1/2 the length of the full taper and has no hold on the tang so why would you size for the small diameter and reduce the holding power even more?

On Thursday, June 2, 2022, 08:44:31 AM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


My adapter for the Heavy 10L is 1-5/8" OD at the big end. It's .940" ID, with a wall thickness of 0.350" An MT 4 taper is 1.195" OD at that point on the taper. That gives you a wall thickness of 0.255", and that's thicker than the wall on my MT3-MT4 taper adapter. Only about 2/3rds of the taper goes into the spindle adapter. It won't be that much bigger than a #3. Remember that the narrow end goes in the adapter, not the large end. 

Found my MT3-MT4 adapter sleeve, wall thickness is 0.170".

I calculated the taper on my adapter some time back. Got  about 0.6148, table I have says an MT4.5 is 0.624. I am assuming I calculated that taper correctly, which is maybe not a good bet. :)

HTH!

Bill in OKC 

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:20:18 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I would check closer before making that MT4 as I think it would be a very thin sleeve and could prove it's self problematic in use and removal.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:15:06 PM CDT, Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Might want to add an MT4 while you're at it. Just in case. It will be a while before I need one, but the Smithy CB-1220XL 3-in-1 machine my brother decided I needed has an MT4 spindle, MT3 tailstock, and came fairly well tooled for a lathe that never got used. My Atlas TH42 uses MT3/MT2, and I somehow wound up with a fairly nice little chuck on an MT1 taper long before I got my first lathe. The Atlas MF milling machine uses MT2, also.  Having the variety of adapters means you don't have to be so careful as to what Morse-tapered tooling you buy. ;) 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better



On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 12:05:52 PM CDT, rlm_mcv via groups.io <rlm_mcv@...> wrote:


I have not but would say that is your call.  You can also ream the finish internal taper using a Morse Taper finish taper in the tail stock.   I would only do this turning the spindle by hand not under power. 

Conciser making MT1- MT2- MT3 adapters and a blank or two while you are setup?


On Wednesday, June 1, 2022, 11:50:18 AM CDT, Rangelov <rangelov@...> wrote:


That will make it easier to hold and keep it true.

Should mark spindle and adapter in case the adapter is removed and reinstalled.  Probably unnecessary since is probably true. But why not?


Re: RIP. SB 9B!

mike allen
 

        I don't think your being ride at all . Just stating facts . But I have to wonder if cleaned up & reassembled will it make that parts that the guy that bought it wanted it to do ?


        animal

On 6/4/2022 12:31 PM, eddie.draper@... via groups.io wrote:

Given that the Aluminium alloy bench collapsed due to the heat, this suggests that a number of things will have happened to the materials from which the lathe is constructed:


Any hardened or spring steel has been annealed. If one of the machine's virtues was hardened bedways, this no longer applies.


Any component containing built in stresses (castings, welded fabrications) has been stress relieved and has consequently changed shape. Also, any component that was subjected to stress while hot, with the load still in place during cooling, will have changed shape. All press or shrink fits can no longer be relied upon.


Any material such as mild steel, copper (tube?) brass etc. that was subjected to work hardening as part of the design strength or stiffness requirement has been annealed.


Aluminium alloys response to heat is complicated and composition dependant.


All lubricants, wicks and seals have been burned away.


Any "monkey metal" (zinc alloys as typically used for diecasting) have had it. If the composition can be determined, items could be used to narrow the range of temperatures experienced depending on what melted and what didn't.


All electrical insulation can no longer be relied upon, even if it still exists. Given this and bearing damage, the motor is scrap, as is the switchgear.


Fasteners, including rivets, will have lost their preloads as a result of the above. Also, any high strength fasteners have been annealed (see above) so are no longer high strength.


Please forgive me if this comes across as a little rude, but sometimes being be cruel to be kind is the best policy. I really feel for you as the victim of a fire, and hope you have insurance. If a loss adjuster tries to bargain you down, feel free to quote my above opinions. My qualifications are in one of my first posts on this site, or I can re-supply if required.


And people are wittering on about paint? Sorry folks, you couldn't give me this or any part of it, once I knew it had been in a fire. I must regretfully advise that it sounds as though it is a total loss.


Eddie


Re: RIP. SB 9B!

jonwoellhaf
 

Thanks, Eddie. Lots of good information I will file away and hope to never have apply any of it!
 
Sorry for your loss, OP.
 
Jan
 

From: eddie.draper@... via groups.io
Sent: June 4, 2022 13:31
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] RIP. SB 9B!
 

Given that the Aluminium alloy bench collapsed due to the heat, this suggests that a number of things will have happened to the materials from which the lathe is constructed:

 

Any hardened or spring steel has been annealed. If one of the machine's virtues was hardened bedways, this no longer applies.

 

Any component containing built in stresses (castings, welded fabrications) has been stress relieved and has consequently changed shape. Also, any component that was subjected to stress while hot, with the load still in place during cooling, will have changed shape. All press or shrink fits can no longer be relied upon.

 

Any material such as mild steel, copper (tube?) brass etc. that was subjected to work hardening as part of the design strength or stiffness requirement has been annealed.

 

Aluminium alloys response to heat is complicated and composition dependant.

 

All lubricants, wicks and seals have been burned away.

 

Any "monkey metal" (zinc alloys as typically used for diecasting) have had it. If the composition can be determined, items could be used to narrow the range of temperatures experienced depending on what melted and what didn't.

 

All electrical insulation can no longer be relied upon, even if it still exists. Given this and bearing damage, the motor is scrap, as is the switchgear.

 

Fasteners, including rivets, will have lost their preloads as a result of the above. Also, any high strength fasteners have been annealed (see above) so are no longer high strength.

 

Please forgive me if this comes across as a little rude, but sometimes being be cruel to be kind is the best policy. I really feel for you as the victim of a fire, and hope you have insurance. If a loss adjuster tries to bargain you down, feel free to quote my above opinions. My qualifications are in one of my first posts on this site, or I can re-supply if required.

 

And people are wittering on about paint? Sorry folks, you couldn't give me this or any part of it, once I knew it had been in a fire. I must regretfully advise that it sounds as though it is a total loss.

 

Eddie

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