Date   

Re: Bluing

Thomas G Brandl
 

Birch-Wood is OK. For the size of your part, it will do. It actually puts on a wash of coper, then colors that. As said before, do a few layers. Possibly 5.

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of G K via groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 4:28 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Bluing

 

EXTERNAL SENDER: This email originated outside of Cummins. Do not click links or open attachments unless you verify the sender and know the content is safe.

 

Just picked up some Birchwood, Perma Blue from the local Farm & Fleet.  I little pressed for time on this one,   We'll see how it works.  If it looks like crappola, I'll clean it off with a bit of vinegar, and try something else.  Thanks for hte help guys.

 

Have a great weekend.

 

Greg

 

On Friday, December 17, 2021, 03:14:20 PM CST, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:

 

 

Just buy some bluing at a gun store and follow the directions if its not dark enough do it again rinse the part in hot water let it dry and let soak in any type of oil till notaulices the acid. Now have it blued   

 

GP

 

 

On Friday, December 17, 2021, 04:05:28 PM EST, George Meinschein via groups.io <gmeinschein@...> wrote:

 

 

Greg,

I know you said "blue", but how about black that is typical of tooling?  That can be done just by letting the surface of the piece rust, boil it in water, card it with an extra fine wire wheel or brush, and repeat until you get the finish you like.  I can point you to a YouTube video of the process if you'd like. The "rusting" can be accelerated putting the part in a damp box or steaming.

 

Thanks,

George Meinschein

150 Brittany Drive

Freehold, NJ 07728

Cell#: 732-580-1736

 

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

 

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, December 17th, 2021 at 12:32, G K via groups.io <bug_hunter2000@...> wrote:

 

Hey Guys,

 

Looking for a safe, and relatively inexpensive method to "blue" some mild steel.  biggest piece is about 0.75 diameter x 8-inch.

 

Thanks a bunch,

 

Greg

 


--
-George M.


Re: Bluing

G K
 

Just picked up some Birchwood, Perma Blue from the local Farm & Fleet.  I little pressed for time on this one,   We'll see how it works.  If it looks like crappola, I'll clean it off with a bit of vinegar, and try something else.  Thanks for hte help guys.

Have a great weekend.

Greg

On Friday, December 17, 2021, 03:14:20 PM CST, Guenther Paul <paulguenter@...> wrote:


Just buy some bluing at a gun store and follow the directions if its not dark enough do it again rinse the part in hot water let it dry and let soak in any type of oil till notaulices the acid. Now have it blued   

GP


On Friday, December 17, 2021, 04:05:28 PM EST, George Meinschein via groups.io <gmeinschein@...> wrote:


Greg,
I know you said "blue", but how about black that is typical of tooling?  That can be done just by letting the surface of the piece rust, boil it in water, card it with an extra fine wire wheel or brush, and repeat until you get the finish you like.  I can point you to a YouTube video of the process if you'd like. The "rusting" can be accelerated putting the part in a damp box or steaming.

Thanks,
George Meinschein
150 Brittany Drive
Freehold, NJ 07728
gmeinschein@...
Cell#: 732-580-1736

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, December 17th, 2021 at 12:32, G K via groups.io <bug_hunter2000@...> wrote:

Hey Guys,

Looking for a safe, and relatively inexpensive method to "blue" some mild steel.  biggest piece is about 0.75 diameter x 8-inch.

Thanks a bunch,

Greg


--
-George M.


Re: Bluing

Guenther Paul
 

Just buy some bluing at a gun store and follow the directions if its not dark enough do it again rinse the part in hot water let it dry and let soak in any type of oil till notaulices the acid. Now have it blued   

GP


On Friday, December 17, 2021, 04:05:28 PM EST, George Meinschein via groups.io <gmeinschein@...> wrote:


Greg,
I know you said "blue", but how about black that is typical of tooling?  That can be done just by letting the surface of the piece rust, boil it in water, card it with an extra fine wire wheel or brush, and repeat until you get the finish you like.  I can point you to a YouTube video of the process if you'd like. The "rusting" can be accelerated putting the part in a damp box or steaming.

Thanks,
George Meinschein
150 Brittany Drive
Freehold, NJ 07728
gmeinschein@...
Cell#: 732-580-1736

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
On Friday, December 17th, 2021 at 12:32, G K via groups.io <bug_hunter2000@...> wrote:

Hey Guys,

Looking for a safe, and relatively inexpensive method to "blue" some mild steel.  biggest piece is about 0.75 diameter x 8-inch.

Thanks a bunch,

Greg


--
-George M.


Re: Bluing

George Meinschein
 

Greg,
I know you said "blue", but how about black that is typical of tooling?  That can be done just by letting the surface of the piece rust, boil it in water, card it with an extra fine wire wheel or brush, and repeat until you get the finish you like.  I can point you to a YouTube video of the process if you'd like. The "rusting" can be accelerated putting the part in a damp box or steaming.

Thanks,
George Meinschein
150 Brittany Drive
Freehold, NJ 07728
gmeinschein@...
Cell#: 732-580-1736

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐

On Friday, December 17th, 2021 at 12:32, G K via groups.io <bug_hunter2000@...> wrote:

Hey Guys,

Looking for a safe, and relatively inexpensive method to "blue" some mild steel.  biggest piece is about 0.75 diameter x 8-inch.

Thanks a bunch,

Greg


--
-George M.


Re: Bluing

Phillip Rankin
 

Bought one of these kits about 10 years ago. I'm still using it Works well. A bit pricey up front, but giving the years of service it has proven to be cost effective. I'm not sure what the going price is these days. I figure I still have another year or two before I use it all up. https://www.precisionbrand.com/product/1-tool-black-liquid-kit/


Re: Bluing

Don Verdiani
 

I use one of the cold blues, like Oxpho Blue from Brownells (www.brownells.com), my favorite gunsmith supply house. The bigger the piece, the harder to get a nice finish, so it depends on what you are expecting. If you just want to protect the metal, cold blue works fine. If it has to look nice, you need to polish, blue, steel wool, blue and repeat a few times. A bluing shop might be a better choice, like Precision Bluing.

 

Like everything else, it all depends on how much time and/or money you want to invest.

 

Don

Gunsmith in PA

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of G K via groups.io
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 12:32 PM
To: southbendlathe@groups.io; SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Bluing

 

 

Hey Guys,

 

Looking for a safe, and relatively inexpensive method to "blue" some mild steel.  biggest piece is about 0.75 diameter x 8-inch.

 

Thanks a bunch,

 

Greg


Re: Bluing

Rogan Creswick
 

Brownell's Oxpho Blue works quite well:


It's a cold-blueing process, and in my experience, takes 2-3 coats, but comes out pretty well.

Here's a part I made a few weeks ago that I blued with that stuff: https://www.instagram.com/p/CW2EwAWMPZ8/?utm_medium=copy_link

I have a forge, too, but (in my pretty limited experience) I've found hot-bluing to be more trouble than it's worth, unless the part is already getting forged, and there's some danger of overheating and warping.

--Rogan

On Fri, Dec 17, 2021 at 10:13 AM Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Have you tried getting it red hot, and dropping it in a tub or bucket of used motor oil? Should do it. Will get flame and smoke, best done outdoors.

Been decades since I did this.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better


On Friday, December 17, 2021, 11:32:01 AM CST, G K via groups.io <bug_hunter2000=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:



Hey Guys,

Looking for a safe, and relatively inexpensive method to "blue" some mild steel.  biggest piece is about 0.75 diameter x 8-inch.

Thanks a bunch,

Greg


Re: Bluing

Bill in OKC too
 

Have you tried getting it red hot, and dropping it in a tub or bucket of used motor oil? Should do it. Will get flame and smoke, best done outdoors.

Been decades since I did this.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better


On Friday, December 17, 2021, 11:32:01 AM CST, G K via groups.io <bug_hunter2000@...> wrote:



Hey Guys,

Looking for a safe, and relatively inexpensive method to "blue" some mild steel.  biggest piece is about 0.75 diameter x 8-inch.

Thanks a bunch,

Greg


Re: Bluing

G K
 


Hey Guys,

Looking for a safe, and relatively inexpensive method to "blue" some mild steel.  biggest piece is about 0.75 diameter x 8-inch.

Thanks a bunch,

Greg
_._,_._,_


Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

Bill in OKC too
 

You can make a micrometer stand. Good practice! Not that I have one yet. A set of gauge blocks is handy first for learning to measure accurately. I've had my set for several years, but you can get one like mine, 36 piece round spacer blocks, for about $70 on Amazon. I got them for under $40 years ago. Or a full set of gauge blocks for around $100 for grade B, and up like a skyrocket for higher precision blocks. After learning to measure accurately, they are great for setting angles with a sine bar or table. Though that isn't necessary unless you have some way to do milling. So then you need a milling machine, too. Yep. a Ka-zillion things! I'm waiting on a box of metric setscrews from amazon right now. Need them to finish up my 1st Unimat. You should also collect bits of metal. I have bars of drill rod from 1/8" to 1-1/4" plus screw machine offcuts in 5/8", 3/4", and 7/8" for projects. I made a resizing die for .316" lead bullets out of mild steel, and the pin for pushing the bullets through it out of 5/16" drill rod. I'll be remaking it out of drill rod one of these days, unless I get around to case-hardening it.

It's a sickness. There is a joke. Q: How do you become a millionaire as a machinist? A: Start with $10 million.

I suggest making as much as you can of your own tooling. A good source for ideas and drawings is the site HomemadeTools.net. Some of their plans cost a little bit of money. Many of them are free, and they have links to stuff all over the internet.

Hi! My name is Bill, and I'm a toolohaulic!

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better

On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 10:15:12 PM CST, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:


        Your going to want

        a good square / straight edge ,

        a Fish Tail .

        One thing that some folks scoff at is a micrometer stand . My accuracy with a mic went way up once I was able to keep the mic steady .    

        A couple of india stones ,

        V-blocks

        Thread pitch gages

        There's a ka-zillion more but those are a few more of things to have .

        YMMV

        animal

On 12/16/2021 3:26 PM, Bill in OKC too via groups.io wrote:
A 1" micrometer, a tungsten carbide scribe, a center punch or two, if you don't already have them, permanent marker or dykem to help you see your scribe marks and such things to help you do layout work could be good. You could make the center punches and scribe. I still don't have it out of the box yet, since I'm also working ony shop, but a surface plate or substitute can come in handy for layout work and for measuring things. I also have access to surface plates in several sizes in my class. 

I've been learning to single-point thread on the lathe, and finally bought my own 1" thread mike. Eventually I'll be getting 2" & 3" thread mike's, too. I have lathes with 1-1/2 & 2-1/4 8tpi threads, and those will help me make  tooling to fit those spindles. 

I need an ER32 chuck to fit each of those lathes. If I'd known I'd get the South Bend lathe, I'd have started with an ER40 chuck at minimum, but for the 7x10 that ER32 was about maximum usable size. Someday, after the SB lathe is operational, I'll need a bunch of 5C collets. I got two collet holders with it. But I can live without them for quite some time yet. 

You're a different person with different needs and different tastes, so what I need and what you need aren't really likely to coincide except for the very basics. Get a good textbook or six on metalworking machining, and you'll see what they teach. Also, unless you really want to do CNC machineing, get older editions. John R. Walker, Richard Kibble, Karl Moltrecht, and Henry Burghardt are good authors. 

You can find Burghardt's older works at archive.org as free pdf files. And a lot of other good stuff, too. Anything published before about 1925 or so in the US is out of copyright. I haunt thrift stores, 2nd hand bookstores, Amazon, and eBay for books and videos. Also YouTube. 

HTH!

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better


On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 03:26:03 PM CST, Agent via groups.io <markerichoffman@...> wrote:

Thanks Bill,

Up to this point, my "hobby machining" has been getting the shop built.  I've been a hobby mechanic / handyman my whole life, but I just haven't had the space or time to dabble in the machining side of things until now.  I have several machines I have collected over the years that now need work, anywhere from complete rebuilds to running machines needing light cleaning.  
One of those machines is a South Bend 7" shaper which also utilizes 1/4" bits, so the suggestions made to learn how to grind wont go wasted, even if moving to a QCTP for the lathe.
I've been slowly buying the measuring stuff, I have Mitutoyo 6" caliper (my good one), and a harbor freight 6" beater, I use it for scribing lines and such.  Recently picked up a Mitutoyo Dial indicator and Noga base for same.  Not sure what should be next on the priority list

On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 02:39:51 PM EST, wmrmeyers@... <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Somewhat agree, somewhat disagree. It only takes a minute or two to change the setup on a lantern-style toolpost, but it only takes a few seconds to change the toolholder on a QCTP. AXA or any other brand or type. If your shop time is limited, and you're going to have to use 5 different tools there to make the part AND you have your tool holders already set up properly, it's say 10 minutes versus 15 seconds to get the tooling changed out and set up. That's 9-3/4 minutes more shop time doing something fun and useful. The lantern post is more flexible that a QCTP, so you can get more chatter, but you can also reach places where the QCTP won't reach. That's why I said you should have both.

Absolutely agree about getting a grinder and learning to grind your own tooling, though. You don't have to settle for a tool that is almost right. You can make it exactly right, with the grinder, and a few diamond hones or slipstones. That was one of the first things they taught us in class after we got through the safety and basic metalworking knowledge. And nearly worth the price of the class all by itself.

There are things you can do with a 3-jaw chuck to get the best accuracy out of it that it's capable of, but they take time, and sometimes they don't work. With a 4-jaw, and a couple of keys, you dial the stock in to nearly zero runout in a couple of minutes. Even me, and I am not a professional machinist. If you need to machine both ends of a part, like a shaft, you'll probably have to take it out of the chuck, reverse it, and put it back in. At which point you lose concentricity unless you're really lucky. You can try to line up the same features on the same jaw of the chuck, but there is no guarantee it will be right. With a 4-jaw, you can just dial it back in again. It may not matter, but again it might, and I prefer to eliminate as much of that sort of problem as I can. I've seen it eat an expensive motor in fairly short time to have a machine shaft be eccentric. Like I said, I'm not a machinist, but I am a mechanic, and I've worked on high performance fighter jets, satellite communications systems that could track a non-synchronous satellite, automobiles and both home and industrial appliances. Stuff has to be made right to keep it going right with the minimum of downtime. My last job, we processed up to 40,000 pounds a day of laundry. 1.5 million dollars worth of washers that would do 450lbs of laundry in a load. That much again for the dryers that dried that laundry, and once again for a machine to process all the floor mats we rented out, as well. One machine being broken down for an 8 hour shift could easily put us behind by 10,000 pounds of laundry.

In your home shop, it probably doesn't matter all that much. But it might. Parts I made in my home shop went into some of those machines to keep them running. That's why my employer let me juggle shifts so I could to the class to learn to be a machinist. I'd kept some of their stuff running by making bearings they needed and couldn't get anywhere else on my little 7x10 mini-lathe. Nothing real complex, even. An inch-long cylinder with a pointed end, 49 degree included angle, and a 7/16"-20TPI threaded hole in the other end made of Teflon impregnated Delrin rod. Not fancy, not even very well made. Much better than nothing, though. I kept a 1.5 million dollar machine running, and making my company money. Which was really handy, since the money I made there paid for most of the machines I've got now. That crappy little bearing is the photo attached. It was the first one I made, and subsequent copies were better, smother, and made faster. Eventually they modified the machine to not need those bearings, since they wore out pretty quickly. They were run in dirty water from the mat cleaning machine, so they got sand and grunge from the mats embedded in them. What do you call a soft object with grit embedded in it that rubbed is against a part? A lap. I do wish I'd had a QCTP on that mini-lathe then, too. but I managed.

Yes, you can get by without a QCTP and a 4-jaw chuck. The Industrial Age was built without them, after all. But they do make things faster, easier, and more convenient. For what I want to do, and have done, they make life much easier, and are, IMO, essential. YMMV. When I started, I was very broke, and just getting the lathe itself ate all my spare money for a couple or three months. I used a ruler to do my measuring on that bearing, and school plastic protractor. In my experience, what you need most before you get the 4-jaw and the QCTP, though, is some good measuring equipment. My class required a 6" dial caliper. Mine came from the local wholesale tool store, for about $25 and is a no-name import. I've also got a Titan digital caliper from the same place. Steve's Wholesale Tool, if you happen to be in the Oklahoma City area. Later I added a 1" micrometer from Harbor Freight, and their 8" and 12" digital calipers, as I need larger measuring equipment.

Recently my school threw out a Mitutoyo dial caliper that was frozen. A couple of shots of WD-40, and I freed it up. Today I got the dial caliper bezel washer clamp with screw from Amazon for it, and it's now fully functional. I've also added a few other measuring tools, bevel protractor, micrometers up to 3", etc. Once I got to where I could measure accurately to .0001", I started buying 10ths mikes. Found a set of those at Steves, recently, too. You don't need them when you start, but you might find them handy once you get into some stuff where you need it. Normal tolerance for a lot of machined stuff is .005"+/_ Some of what I want to do is .0005", and some other stuff is .0001" so it will be good to have those, too. But I've been collecting this stuff for 13 years, and most of the higher precision stuff in the past 4 or 5, once I got to where I could routinely get to those tolerance. Depending on what you're doing, you may never need them. I will only occasionally need them, but when I do, I WILL need them. So I'm trying to work to those tolerances just because I can, and will need them more in the future.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) 

Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better





On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 08:32:27 AM CST, jordie Field <jordie.field19@...> wrote:


I 100% percent agree with everything ken stated here!!!  Spot on advice……!!!


On Dec 14, 2021, at 10:01 AM, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ...  first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch.  i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business.  never missed a QC .   after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production,  you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine.  so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged.  plenty of you-tubes on this.   a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) .  your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy "  factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ...  i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ... 

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

mike allen
 

        Your going to want

        a good square / straight edge ,

        a Fish Tail .

        One thing that some folks scoff at is a micrometer stand . My accuracy with a mic went way up once I was able to keep the mic steady .    

        A couple of india stones ,

        V-blocks

        Thread pitch gages

        There's a ka-zillion more but those are a few more of things to have .

        YMMV

        animal

On 12/16/2021 3:26 PM, Bill in OKC too via groups.io wrote:
A 1" micrometer, a tungsten carbide scribe, a center punch or two, if you don't already have them, permanent marker or dykem to help you see your scribe marks and such things to help you do layout work could be good. You could make the center punches and scribe. I still don't have it out of the box yet, since I'm also working ony shop, but a surface plate or substitute can come in handy for layout work and for measuring things. I also have access to surface plates in several sizes in my class. 

I've been learning to single-point thread on the lathe, and finally bought my own 1" thread mike. Eventually I'll be getting 2" & 3" thread mike's, too. I have lathes with 1-1/2 & 2-1/4 8tpi threads, and those will help me make  tooling to fit those spindles. 

I need an ER32 chuck to fit each of those lathes. If I'd known I'd get the South Bend lathe, I'd have started with an ER40 chuck at minimum, but for the 7x10 that ER32 was about maximum usable size. Someday, after the SB lathe is operational, I'll need a bunch of 5C collets. I got two collet holders with it. But I can live without them for quite some time yet. 

You're a different person with different needs and different tastes, so what I need and what you need aren't really likely to coincide except for the very basics. Get a good textbook or six on metalworking machining, and you'll see what they teach. Also, unless you really want to do CNC machineing, get older editions. John R. Walker, Richard Kibble, Karl Moltrecht, and Henry Burghardt are good authors. 

You can find Burghardt's older works at archive.org as free pdf files. And a lot of other good stuff, too. Anything published before about 1925 or so in the US is out of copyright. I haunt thrift stores, 2nd hand bookstores, Amazon, and eBay for books and videos. Also YouTube. 

HTH!

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better


On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 03:26:03 PM CST, Agent via groups.io <markerichoffman@...> wrote:

Thanks Bill,

Up to this point, my "hobby machining" has been getting the shop built.  I've been a hobby mechanic / handyman my whole life, but I just haven't had the space or time to dabble in the machining side of things until now.  I have several machines I have collected over the years that now need work, anywhere from complete rebuilds to running machines needing light cleaning.  
One of those machines is a South Bend 7" shaper which also utilizes 1/4" bits, so the suggestions made to learn how to grind wont go wasted, even if moving to a QCTP for the lathe.
I've been slowly buying the measuring stuff, I have Mitutoyo 6" caliper (my good one), and a harbor freight 6" beater, I use it for scribing lines and such.  Recently picked up a Mitutoyo Dial indicator and Noga base for same.  Not sure what should be next on the priority list

On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 02:39:51 PM EST, wmrmeyers@... <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Somewhat agree, somewhat disagree. It only takes a minute or two to change the setup on a lantern-style toolpost, but it only takes a few seconds to change the toolholder on a QCTP. AXA or any other brand or type. If your shop time is limited, and you're going to have to use 5 different tools there to make the part AND you have your tool holders already set up properly, it's say 10 minutes versus 15 seconds to get the tooling changed out and set up. That's 9-3/4 minutes more shop time doing something fun and useful. The lantern post is more flexible that a QCTP, so you can get more chatter, but you can also reach places where the QCTP won't reach. That's why I said you should have both.

Absolutely agree about getting a grinder and learning to grind your own tooling, though. You don't have to settle for a tool that is almost right. You can make it exactly right, with the grinder, and a few diamond hones or slipstones. That was one of the first things they taught us in class after we got through the safety and basic metalworking knowledge. And nearly worth the price of the class all by itself.

There are things you can do with a 3-jaw chuck to get the best accuracy out of it that it's capable of, but they take time, and sometimes they don't work. With a 4-jaw, and a couple of keys, you dial the stock in to nearly zero runout in a couple of minutes. Even me, and I am not a professional machinist. If you need to machine both ends of a part, like a shaft, you'll probably have to take it out of the chuck, reverse it, and put it back in. At which point you lose concentricity unless you're really lucky. You can try to line up the same features on the same jaw of the chuck, but there is no guarantee it will be right. With a 4-jaw, you can just dial it back in again. It may not matter, but again it might, and I prefer to eliminate as much of that sort of problem as I can. I've seen it eat an expensive motor in fairly short time to have a machine shaft be eccentric. Like I said, I'm not a machinist, but I am a mechanic, and I've worked on high performance fighter jets, satellite communications systems that could track a non-synchronous satellite, automobiles and both home and industrial appliances. Stuff has to be made right to keep it going right with the minimum of downtime. My last job, we processed up to 40,000 pounds a day of laundry. 1.5 million dollars worth of washers that would do 450lbs of laundry in a load. That much again for the dryers that dried that laundry, and once again for a machine to process all the floor mats we rented out, as well. One machine being broken down for an 8 hour shift could easily put us behind by 10,000 pounds of laundry.

In your home shop, it probably doesn't matter all that much. But it might. Parts I made in my home shop went into some of those machines to keep them running. That's why my employer let me juggle shifts so I could to the class to learn to be a machinist. I'd kept some of their stuff running by making bearings they needed and couldn't get anywhere else on my little 7x10 mini-lathe. Nothing real complex, even. An inch-long cylinder with a pointed end, 49 degree included angle, and a 7/16"-20TPI threaded hole in the other end made of Teflon impregnated Delrin rod. Not fancy, not even very well made. Much better than nothing, though. I kept a 1.5 million dollar machine running, and making my company money. Which was really handy, since the money I made there paid for most of the machines I've got now. That crappy little bearing is the photo attached. It was the first one I made, and subsequent copies were better, smother, and made faster. Eventually they modified the machine to not need those bearings, since they wore out pretty quickly. They were run in dirty water from the mat cleaning machine, so they got sand and grunge from the mats embedded in them. What do you call a soft object with grit embedded in it that rubbed is against a part? A lap. I do wish I'd had a QCTP on that mini-lathe then, too. but I managed.

Yes, you can get by without a QCTP and a 4-jaw chuck. The Industrial Age was built without them, after all. But they do make things faster, easier, and more convenient. For what I want to do, and have done, they make life much easier, and are, IMO, essential. YMMV. When I started, I was very broke, and just getting the lathe itself ate all my spare money for a couple or three months. I used a ruler to do my measuring on that bearing, and school plastic protractor. In my experience, what you need most before you get the 4-jaw and the QCTP, though, is some good measuring equipment. My class required a 6" dial caliper. Mine came from the local wholesale tool store, for about $25 and is a no-name import. I've also got a Titan digital caliper from the same place. Steve's Wholesale Tool, if you happen to be in the Oklahoma City area. Later I added a 1" micrometer from Harbor Freight, and their 8" and 12" digital calipers, as I need larger measuring equipment.

Recently my school threw out a Mitutoyo dial caliper that was frozen. A couple of shots of WD-40, and I freed it up. Today I got the dial caliper bezel washer clamp with screw from Amazon for it, and it's now fully functional. I've also added a few other measuring tools, bevel protractor, micrometers up to 3", etc. Once I got to where I could measure accurately to .0001", I started buying 10ths mikes. Found a set of those at Steves, recently, too. You don't need them when you start, but you might find them handy once you get into some stuff where you need it. Normal tolerance for a lot of machined stuff is .005"+/_ Some of what I want to do is .0005", and some other stuff is .0001" so it will be good to have those, too. But I've been collecting this stuff for 13 years, and most of the higher precision stuff in the past 4 or 5, once I got to where I could routinely get to those tolerance. Depending on what you're doing, you may never need them. I will only occasionally need them, but when I do, I WILL need them. So I'm trying to work to those tolerances just because I can, and will need them more in the future.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) 

Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better





On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 08:32:27 AM CST, jordie Field <jordie.field19@...> wrote:


I 100% percent agree with everything ken stated here!!!  Spot on advice……!!!


On Dec 14, 2021, at 10:01 AM, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ...  first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch.  i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business.  never missed a QC .   after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production,  you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine.  so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged.  plenty of you-tubes on this.   a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) .  your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy "  factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ...  i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ... 

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

Bill in OKC too
 

A 1" micrometer, a tungsten carbide scribe, a center punch or two, if you don't already have them, permanent marker or dykem to help you see your scribe marks and such things to help you do layout work could be good. You could make the center punches and scribe. I still don't have it out of the box yet, since I'm also working ony shop, but a surface plate or substitute can come in handy for layout work and for measuring things. I also have access to surface plates in several sizes in my class. 

I've been learning to single-point thread on the lathe, and finally bought my own 1" thread mike. Eventually I'll be getting 2" & 3" thread mike's, too. I have lathes with 1-1/2 & 2-1/4 8tpi threads, and those will help me make  tooling to fit those spindles. 

I need an ER32 chuck to fit each of those lathes. If I'd known I'd get the South Bend lathe, I'd have started with an ER40 chuck at minimum, but for the 7x10 that ER32 was about maximum usable size. Someday, after the SB lathe is operational, I'll need a bunch of 5C collets. I got two collet holders with it. But I can live without them for quite some time yet. 

You're a different person with different needs and different tastes, so what I need and what you need aren't really likely to coincide except for the very basics. Get a good textbook or six on metalworking machining, and you'll see what they teach. Also, unless you really want to do CNC machineing, get older editions. John R. Walker, Richard Kibble, Karl Moltrecht, and Henry Burghardt are good authors. 

You can find Burghardt's older works at archive.org as free pdf files. And a lot of other good stuff, too. Anything published before about 1925 or so in the US is out of copyright. I haunt thrift stores, 2nd hand bookstores, Amazon, and eBay for books and videos. Also YouTube. 

HTH!

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better


On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 03:26:03 PM CST, Agent via groups.io <markerichoffman@...> wrote:

Thanks Bill,

Up to this point, my "hobby machining" has been getting the shop built.  I've been a hobby mechanic / handyman my whole life, but I just haven't had the space or time to dabble in the machining side of things until now.  I have several machines I have collected over the years that now need work, anywhere from complete rebuilds to running machines needing light cleaning.  
One of those machines is a South Bend 7" shaper which also utilizes 1/4" bits, so the suggestions made to learn how to grind wont go wasted, even if moving to a QCTP for the lathe.
I've been slowly buying the measuring stuff, I have Mitutoyo 6" caliper (my good one), and a harbor freight 6" beater, I use it for scribing lines and such.  Recently picked up a Mitutoyo Dial indicator and Noga base for same.  Not sure what should be next on the priority list

On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 02:39:51 PM EST, wmrmeyers@... <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Somewhat agree, somewhat disagree. It only takes a minute or two to change the setup on a lantern-style toolpost, but it only takes a few seconds to change the toolholder on a QCTP. AXA or any other brand or type. If your shop time is limited, and you're going to have to use 5 different tools there to make the part AND you have your tool holders already set up properly, it's say 10 minutes versus 15 seconds to get the tooling changed out and set up. That's 9-3/4 minutes more shop time doing something fun and useful. The lantern post is more flexible that a QCTP, so you can get more chatter, but you can also reach places where the QCTP won't reach. That's why I said you should have both.

Absolutely agree about getting a grinder and learning to grind your own tooling, though. You don't have to settle for a tool that is almost right. You can make it exactly right, with the grinder, and a few diamond hones or slipstones. That was one of the first things they taught us in class after we got through the safety and basic metalworking knowledge. And nearly worth the price of the class all by itself.

There are things you can do with a 3-jaw chuck to get the best accuracy out of it that it's capable of, but they take time, and sometimes they don't work. With a 4-jaw, and a couple of keys, you dial the stock in to nearly zero runout in a couple of minutes. Even me, and I am not a professional machinist. If you need to machine both ends of a part, like a shaft, you'll probably have to take it out of the chuck, reverse it, and put it back in. At which point you lose concentricity unless you're really lucky. You can try to line up the same features on the same jaw of the chuck, but there is no guarantee it will be right. With a 4-jaw, you can just dial it back in again. It may not matter, but again it might, and I prefer to eliminate as much of that sort of problem as I can. I've seen it eat an expensive motor in fairly short time to have a machine shaft be eccentric. Like I said, I'm not a machinist, but I am a mechanic, and I've worked on high performance fighter jets, satellite communications systems that could track a non-synchronous satellite, automobiles and both home and industrial appliances. Stuff has to be made right to keep it going right with the minimum of downtime. My last job, we processed up to 40,000 pounds a day of laundry. 1.5 million dollars worth of washers that would do 450lbs of laundry in a load. That much again for the dryers that dried that laundry, and once again for a machine to process all the floor mats we rented out, as well. One machine being broken down for an 8 hour shift could easily put us behind by 10,000 pounds of laundry.

In your home shop, it probably doesn't matter all that much. But it might. Parts I made in my home shop went into some of those machines to keep them running. That's why my employer let me juggle shifts so I could to the class to learn to be a machinist. I'd kept some of their stuff running by making bearings they needed and couldn't get anywhere else on my little 7x10 mini-lathe. Nothing real complex, even. An inch-long cylinder with a pointed end, 49 degree included angle, and a 7/16"-20TPI threaded hole in the other end made of Teflon impregnated Delrin rod. Not fancy, not even very well made. Much better than nothing, though. I kept a 1.5 million dollar machine running, and making my company money. Which was really handy, since the money I made there paid for most of the machines I've got now. That crappy little bearing is the photo attached. It was the first one I made, and subsequent copies were better, smother, and made faster. Eventually they modified the machine to not need those bearings, since they wore out pretty quickly. They were run in dirty water from the mat cleaning machine, so they got sand and grunge from the mats embedded in them. What do you call a soft object with grit embedded in it that rubbed is against a part? A lap. I do wish I'd had a QCTP on that mini-lathe then, too. but I managed.

Yes, you can get by without a QCTP and a 4-jaw chuck. The Industrial Age was built without them, after all. But they do make things faster, easier, and more convenient. For what I want to do, and have done, they make life much easier, and are, IMO, essential. YMMV. When I started, I was very broke, and just getting the lathe itself ate all my spare money for a couple or three months. I used a ruler to do my measuring on that bearing, and school plastic protractor. In my experience, what you need most before you get the 4-jaw and the QCTP, though, is some good measuring equipment. My class required a 6" dial caliper. Mine came from the local wholesale tool store, for about $25 and is a no-name import. I've also got a Titan digital caliper from the same place. Steve's Wholesale Tool, if you happen to be in the Oklahoma City area. Later I added a 1" micrometer from Harbor Freight, and their 8" and 12" digital calipers, as I need larger measuring equipment.

Recently my school threw out a Mitutoyo dial caliper that was frozen. A couple of shots of WD-40, and I freed it up. Today I got the dial caliper bezel washer clamp with screw from Amazon for it, and it's now fully functional. I've also added a few other measuring tools, bevel protractor, micrometers up to 3", etc. Once I got to where I could measure accurately to .0001", I started buying 10ths mikes. Found a set of those at Steves, recently, too. You don't need them when you start, but you might find them handy once you get into some stuff where you need it. Normal tolerance for a lot of machined stuff is .005"+/_ Some of what I want to do is .0005", and some other stuff is .0001" so it will be good to have those, too. But I've been collecting this stuff for 13 years, and most of the higher precision stuff in the past 4 or 5, once I got to where I could routinely get to those tolerance. Depending on what you're doing, you may never need them. I will only occasionally need them, but when I do, I WILL need them. So I'm trying to work to those tolerances just because I can, and will need them more in the future.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) 

Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better





On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 08:32:27 AM CST, jordie Field <jordie.field19@...> wrote:


I 100% percent agree with everything ken stated here!!!  Spot on advice……!!!


On Dec 14, 2021, at 10:01 AM, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ...  first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch.  i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business.  never missed a QC .   after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production,  you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine.  so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged.  plenty of you-tubes on this.   a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) .  your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy "  factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ...  i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ... 

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

Agent
 

Thanks Bill,

Up to this point, my "hobby machining" has been getting the shop built.  I've been a hobby mechanic / handyman my whole life, but I just haven't had the space or time to dabble in the machining side of things until now.  I have several machines I have collected over the years that now need work, anywhere from complete rebuilds to running machines needing light cleaning.  
One of those machines is a South Bend 7" shaper which also utilizes 1/4" bits, so the suggestions made to learn how to grind wont go wasted, even if moving to a QCTP for the lathe.
I've been slowly buying the measuring stuff, I have Mitutoyo 6" caliper (my good one), and a harbor freight 6" beater, I use it for scribing lines and such.  Recently picked up a Mitutoyo Dial indicator and Noga base for same.  Not sure what should be next on the priority list



On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 02:39:51 PM EST, wmrmeyers@... <wmrmeyers@...> wrote:


Somewhat agree, somewhat disagree. It only takes a minute or two to change the setup on a lantern-style toolpost, but it only takes a few seconds to change the toolholder on a QCTP. AXA or any other brand or type. If your shop time is limited, and you're going to have to use 5 different tools there to make the part AND you have your tool holders already set up properly, it's say 10 minutes versus 15 seconds to get the tooling changed out and set up. That's 9-3/4 minutes more shop time doing something fun and useful. The lantern post is more flexible that a QCTP, so you can get more chatter, but you can also reach places where the QCTP won't reach. That's why I said you should have both.

Absolutely agree about getting a grinder and learning to grind your own tooling, though. You don't have to settle for a tool that is almost right. You can make it exactly right, with the grinder, and a few diamond hones or slipstones. That was one of the first things they taught us in class after we got through the safety and basic metalworking knowledge. And nearly worth the price of the class all by itself.

There are things you can do with a 3-jaw chuck to get the best accuracy out of it that it's capable of, but they take time, and sometimes they don't work. With a 4-jaw, and a couple of keys, you dial the stock in to nearly zero runout in a couple of minutes. Even me, and I am not a professional machinist. If you need to machine both ends of a part, like a shaft, you'll probably have to take it out of the chuck, reverse it, and put it back in. At which point you lose concentricity unless you're really lucky. You can try to line up the same features on the same jaw of the chuck, but there is no guarantee it will be right. With a 4-jaw, you can just dial it back in again. It may not matter, but again it might, and I prefer to eliminate as much of that sort of problem as I can. I've seen it eat an expensive motor in fairly short time to have a machine shaft be eccentric. Like I said, I'm not a machinist, but I am a mechanic, and I've worked on high performance fighter jets, satellite communications systems that could track a non-synchronous satellite, automobiles and both home and industrial appliances. Stuff has to be made right to keep it going right with the minimum of downtime. My last job, we processed up to 40,000 pounds a day of laundry. 1.5 million dollars worth of washers that would do 450lbs of laundry in a load. That much again for the dryers that dried that laundry, and once again for a machine to process all the floor mats we rented out, as well. One machine being broken down for an 8 hour shift could easily put us behind by 10,000 pounds of laundry.

In your home shop, it probably doesn't matter all that much. But it might. Parts I made in my home shop went into some of those machines to keep them running. That's why my employer let me juggle shifts so I could to the class to learn to be a machinist. I'd kept some of their stuff running by making bearings they needed and couldn't get anywhere else on my little 7x10 mini-lathe. Nothing real complex, even. An inch-long cylinder with a pointed end, 49 degree included angle, and a 7/16"-20TPI threaded hole in the other end made of Teflon impregnated Delrin rod. Not fancy, not even very well made. Much better than nothing, though. I kept a 1.5 million dollar machine running, and making my company money. Which was really handy, since the money I made there paid for most of the machines I've got now. That crappy little bearing is the photo attached. It was the first one I made, and subsequent copies were better, smother, and made faster. Eventually they modified the machine to not need those bearings, since they wore out pretty quickly. They were run in dirty water from the mat cleaning machine, so they got sand and grunge from the mats embedded in them. What do you call a soft object with grit embedded in it that rubbed is against a part? A lap. I do wish I'd had a QCTP on that mini-lathe then, too. but I managed.

Yes, you can get by without a QCTP and a 4-jaw chuck. The Industrial Age was built without them, after all. But they do make things faster, easier, and more convenient. For what I want to do, and have done, they make life much easier, and are, IMO, essential. YMMV. When I started, I was very broke, and just getting the lathe itself ate all my spare money for a couple or three months. I used a ruler to do my measuring on that bearing, and school plastic protractor. In my experience, what you need most before you get the 4-jaw and the QCTP, though, is some good measuring equipment. My class required a 6" dial caliper. Mine came from the local wholesale tool store, for about $25 and is a no-name import. I've also got a Titan digital caliper from the same place. Steve's Wholesale Tool, if you happen to be in the Oklahoma City area. Later I added a 1" micrometer from Harbor Freight, and their 8" and 12" digital calipers, as I need larger measuring equipment.

Recently my school threw out a Mitutoyo dial caliper that was frozen. A couple of shots of WD-40, and I freed it up. Today I got the dial caliper bezel washer clamp with screw from Amazon for it, and it's now fully functional. I've also added a few other measuring tools, bevel protractor, micrometers up to 3", etc. Once I got to where I could measure accurately to .0001", I started buying 10ths mikes. Found a set of those at Steves, recently, too. You don't need them when you start, but you might find them handy once you get into some stuff where you need it. Normal tolerance for a lot of machined stuff is .005"+/_ Some of what I want to do is .0005", and some other stuff is .0001" so it will be good to have those, too. But I've been collecting this stuff for 13 years, and most of the higher precision stuff in the past 4 or 5, once I got to where I could routinely get to those tolerance. Depending on what you're doing, you may never need them. I will only occasionally need them, but when I do, I WILL need them. So I'm trying to work to those tolerances just because I can, and will need them more in the future.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) 

Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better





On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 08:32:27 AM CST, jordie Field <jordie.field19@...> wrote:


I 100% percent agree with everything ken stated here!!!  Spot on advice……!!!


On Dec 14, 2021, at 10:01 AM, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ...  first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch.  i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business.  never missed a QC .   after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production,  you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine.  so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged.  plenty of you-tubes on this.   a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) .  your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy "  factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ...  i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ... 

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

wmrmeyers@gmail.com
 

Somewhat agree, somewhat disagree. It only takes a minute or two to change the setup on a lantern-style toolpost, but it only takes a few seconds to change the toolholder on a QCTP. AXA or any other brand or type. If your shop time is limited, and you're going to have to use 5 different tools there to make the part AND you have your tool holders already set up properly, it's say 10 minutes versus 15 seconds to get the tooling changed out and set up. That's 9-3/4 minutes more shop time doing something fun and useful. The lantern post is more flexible that a QCTP, so you can get more chatter, but you can also reach places where the QCTP won't reach. That's why I said you should have both.

Absolutely agree about getting a grinder and learning to grind your own tooling, though. You don't have to settle for a tool that is almost right. You can make it exactly right, with the grinder, and a few diamond hones or slipstones. That was one of the first things they taught us in class after we got through the safety and basic metalworking knowledge. And nearly worth the price of the class all by itself.

There are things you can do with a 3-jaw chuck to get the best accuracy out of it that it's capable of, but they take time, and sometimes they don't work. With a 4-jaw, and a couple of keys, you dial the stock in to nearly zero runout in a couple of minutes. Even me, and I am not a professional machinist. If you need to machine both ends of a part, like a shaft, you'll probably have to take it out of the chuck, reverse it, and put it back in. At which point you lose concentricity unless you're really lucky. You can try to line up the same features on the same jaw of the chuck, but there is no guarantee it will be right. With a 4-jaw, you can just dial it back in again. It may not matter, but again it might, and I prefer to eliminate as much of that sort of problem as I can. I've seen it eat an expensive motor in fairly short time to have a machine shaft be eccentric. Like I said, I'm not a machinist, but I am a mechanic, and I've worked on high performance fighter jets, satellite communications systems that could track a non-synchronous satellite, automobiles and both home and industrial appliances. Stuff has to be made right to keep it going right with the minimum of downtime. My last job, we processed up to 40,000 pounds a day of laundry. 1.5 million dollars worth of washers that would do 450lbs of laundry in a load. That much again for the dryers that dried that laundry, and once again for a machine to process all the floor mats we rented out, as well. One machine being broken down for an 8 hour shift could easily put us behind by 10,000 pounds of laundry.

In your home shop, it probably doesn't matter all that much. But it might. Parts I made in my home shop went into some of those machines to keep them running. That's why my employer let me juggle shifts so I could to the class to learn to be a machinist. I'd kept some of their stuff running by making bearings they needed and couldn't get anywhere else on my little 7x10 mini-lathe. Nothing real complex, even. An inch-long cylinder with a pointed end, 49 degree included angle, and a 7/16"-20TPI threaded hole in the other end made of Teflon impregnated Delrin rod. Not fancy, not even very well made. Much better than nothing, though. I kept a 1.5 million dollar machine running, and making my company money. Which was really handy, since the money I made there paid for most of the machines I've got now. That crappy little bearing is the photo attached. It was the first one I made, and subsequent copies were better, smother, and made faster. Eventually they modified the machine to not need those bearings, since they wore out pretty quickly. They were run in dirty water from the mat cleaning machine, so they got sand and grunge from the mats embedded in them. What do you call a soft object with grit embedded in it that rubbed is against a part? A lap. I do wish I'd had a QCTP on that mini-lathe then, too. but I managed.

Yes, you can get by without a QCTP and a 4-jaw chuck. The Industrial Age was built without them, after all. But they do make things faster, easier, and more convenient. For what I want to do, and have done, they make life much easier, and are, IMO, essential. YMMV. When I started, I was very broke, and just getting the lathe itself ate all my spare money for a couple or three months. I used a ruler to do my measuring on that bearing, and school plastic protractor. In my experience, what you need most before you get the 4-jaw and the QCTP, though, is some good measuring equipment. My class required a 6" dial caliper. Mine came from the local wholesale tool store, for about $25 and is a no-name import. I've also got a Titan digital caliper from the same place. Steve's Wholesale Tool, if you happen to be in the Oklahoma City area. Later I added a 1" micrometer from Harbor Freight, and their 8" and 12" digital calipers, as I need larger measuring equipment.

Recently my school threw out a Mitutoyo dial caliper that was frozen. A couple of shots of WD-40, and I freed it up. Today I got the dial caliper bezel washer clamp with screw from Amazon for it, and it's now fully functional. I've also added a few other measuring tools, bevel protractor, micrometers up to 3", etc. Once I got to where I could measure accurately to .0001", I started buying 10ths mikes. Found a set of those at Steves, recently, too. You don't need them when you start, but you might find them handy once you get into some stuff where you need it. Normal tolerance for a lot of machined stuff is .005"+/_ Some of what I want to do is .0005", and some other stuff is .0001" so it will be good to have those, too. But I've been collecting this stuff for 13 years, and most of the higher precision stuff in the past 4 or 5, once I got to where I could routinely get to those tolerance. Depending on what you're doing, you may never need them. I will only occasionally need them, but when I do, I WILL need them. So I'm trying to work to those tolerances just because I can, and will need them more in the future.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.) 

Aphorisms to live by:
SEMPER GUMBY!
Improvise, Adapt, and Overcome.
Physics doesn't care about your schedule.
The only reason I know anything is because I've done it wrong enough times to START to know better





On Thursday, December 16, 2021, 08:32:27 AM CST, jordie Field <jordie.field19@...> wrote:


I 100% percent agree with everything ken stated here!!!  Spot on advice……!!!


On Dec 14, 2021, at 10:01 AM, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ...  first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch.  i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business.  never missed a QC .   after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production,  you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine.  so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged.  plenty of you-tubes on this.   a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) .  your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy "  factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ...  i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ... 

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

jordie Field
 

I 100% percent agree with everything ken stated here!!!  Spot on advice……!!!


On Dec 14, 2021, at 10:01 AM, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ...  first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch.  i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business.  never missed a QC .   after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production,  you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine.  so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged.  plenty of you-tubes on this.   a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) .  your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy "  factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ...  i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ... 

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

Bill in OKC too
 

Doubt I'll ever do anything that complicated, but being able to do internal splines is reason enough for me. Won't be doing anything too large, either, since all my machines but two of the drill presses are bench top or desktop machines. Unless I live a really long time and win the lottery a few times. :) 

Used South Bend lathes and shapers in my first class 48+ years ago, but wasn't smart enough then to do anything about it. Like taking a second class while I still remembered what I'd learned. Read what I could find about machining, and looked for a lathe and shaper, but didn't find one of either of them I could afford to buy until 2008. Then it was a 7x10 Mini-Lathe. 

 I'd love to have a 36" Cincinnati shaper, and a Bridgeport or similar mill, and Monarch  or similar larger lathe, but don't have space for them. Or even a floor that could support one. :)

Still don't have a South Bend Shaper, but I do have a WWII war surplus benchtop SB toolroom lathe. It's a restoration project, and quite a bit larger and more complex than the Unimats. I need the practice fixing machine tools, too 

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)

On Wednesday, December 15, 2021, 09:37:27 PM CST, doug kilbourn via groups.io <h2oridr@...> wrote:


Ah a shaper
Spent a lot of time on one in the 60s and 70s making complex shear dies
Many memories 


Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

doug kilbourn
 

Ah a shaper
Spent a lot of time on one in the 60s and 70s making complex shear dies
Many memories 


On Dec 15, 2021, at 11:17 AM, fred eisner <imsteamer21@...> wrote:


hi bill - im curious - how much time do you spend each week in your shop machining - thanks fred


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 4:07 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?
 
The Atlas I mentioned came with a 3-jaw that was out by .014", and nothing I could do to it improved the situation. That's why I got the 4-jaw for it. First thing I bough for my 7x mini-lathe, which was my first lathe, was a 5" 4-jaw. If I could have gotten the backplate off it, to put another backplate on that fit the Atlas, I'd have just moved that chuck to it. Most of my other accessories worked fine on it. Both have MT2 tailstocks, and MT3 spindles, etc.

I've mentioned that I'm taking a class in precision manual machining, I think. They do not teach turning between centers anymore. Even though it's the best way to get the ultimate accuracy out of a lathe. I have live and dead centers for all of my lathes except the new Unimats. And I intend to make a set of those, as well. Including a negative center. It has a 60 degree recess, instead of point. You can put a ball bearing in there, and turn stuff off-axis to get a taper, for for holding a machine shaft that doesn't have center-drilled ends. A faceplate and a set of centers and a dog or two and you can make just about anything you need, including accurate leadscrews.

I've only been in the class for a very part-time 7 years, this February, been slow-leaking it terribly. Since I am allowed to work on their machines for projects of my own. And I've read a bunch of the old books from the 1860's on, about machining. My shop has a metal shaper, even though they are very obsolete now, because they will do things you cannot do on a milling machine. Also have both horizontal and vertical mills. Again, they will do things the other type cannot do. It took me 35 years to get my first lathe. 37 for a shaper. I got my first South Bend lathe 46 years after my first class, when I discovered I loved machining. I just traded my 7x mini-lathe for a ragged out Unimat SL, and am restoring it, and got enough cash out of the deal to buy another that wasn't as bad, but it's getting an overhaul too. I'll have 5 lathes, 5 mills, a shaper, 3 drill presses, and 3 bandsaws, with some overlaps in there. Three of the machines, the Smithy CB-1220XL and the Unimats, can be a lathe or a mill, or a drill press, though I'll probably never use them as drill presses, as I have the 3 real drill presses.

Yes, centers are essential, too. ;)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)




On Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 02:40:55 PM CST, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:


Bill,


I use a 4 jaw more than a 3 jaw. In addition to the obvious uses for square or octagon bar, it is used for holding anything irregular and even round objects that need machining off centre. A typical example of the last named is an eccentric for a steam engine. Our big Broadbent only has a 4 jaw that doubles as a faceplate, and I've struck the 3 jaw off my wish list having now lived with it since 2007. If push comes to shove, I can hold a 3 jaw off one of our other lathes in the 4 jaw, bringing the benefit of being able to centre it properly.


So far, nobody has mentioned turning between centres. That is the most basic operation, but is absolutely wonderful for machining anything that needs lots of trial fits such as something that is assembled with a shallow taper. No worries about setting things back running true no matter how many times you take it off the machine. Also for machining long tapers if you don't have a TTA and you have to offset the tailstock. It is absolutely essential to turn railway axles between centres.


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill in OKC too via groups.io" <wmrmeyers@...>
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, 14 Dec, 21 At 17:39
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

I'm not a professional machinist. But I have learned that a QCTP is very useful. Particularly when you have very limited shop time. Once you have all your dozens of tool holders set up, anyway. :) There are things you can do with a QCTP that can't be done, or done as easily, with a lantern-style toolpost. And vice versa. Some things are easier with the lantern style. You should have both.

You only need a 4-jaw independent-jaw chuck if you're going to be turning square or octagon stock, or you need more accuracy than your 3-jaw allows. It takes a couple of minutes to adjust a piece of stock in a 4-jaw so there is little or no runout. Though it's easier with a collet chuck and collets for round stock, and some types of collets will take square or hex stock. They're another thing you can spend big money on. :)

You can get by with next to nothing, but it is more fun if you have every tool known to man. From my experience, I can tell you that it's cheaper to buy stuff as you find you need it. Not that that's how I did it for most of my stuff... ;)

If you're not already a machinist, play with what you have and figure out what you need for what you want to do. Get the tools you need for a particular project. Or make them yourself. I've done some of each. I got an Atlas TH42 a few years ago. First things I bought it were a 4-jaw chuck & a QCTP. I had to make a rocker for the lantern post, as it was missing. The only lathe I don't currently have a 4-jaw for is my SB Heavy 10L. It's a restoration project. Once it's running, which may be several years yet, it will get one of each. And it's own toolholders! :) I've even bought a 4-jaw for the Unimat. I consider them essential if you don't have a collet chuck and a good set of collets. Naturally, YMMV. :)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)





On Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 10:01:14 AM CST, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ... first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch. i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business. never missed a QC . after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production, you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine. so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged. plenty of you-tubes on this. a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) . your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy " factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ... i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ...

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

Bill in OKC too
 

None, at the moment. I'm using the machines at school while I still have access to them. I am working on the machines at home that aren't useable yet. Most of what I have I bought "out of service" in that they were disabled in one or more ways. I'm also working on the shop itself. My concentration has been to learn to use the machines, since I'd forgotten everything I'd learned in the high school class in 1973. For most of the time I've been here, I did not even have a workshop. In the class, it's about 6 hours a week. None of my machines will take cuts as deep as the school machines, nor feed as fast as the school machines on the same materials. But I'm not in a production shop, either. I can afford to spend time taking .001" cuts if that's what is needed. Since I have a bit of an obsession with precision, I probably spend more time on it than really necessary as it is.

I got an adapter that will let me use the SB 10L 3-jaw on my Atlas day before yesterday. I can get to the Atlas, and the chuck is on the Atlas, so today, since I don't have class tonight, I will be using the Atlas to shorten the way bars I made for the 1st Unimat. Assuming it will cut through the chrome, which I believe it will do but have not verified. My Atlas weighs about a tenth of what the smallest lathe at school weighs. I have used it and the 7x10 that I no longer have and both cut ordinary steel, mild or tool, just fine, so I'm not wondering if it will work, though I could be wrong. ;) When I started the class, it was because I could not get the 7x lathe to do what I wanted it to do. Lots of folks say they're crappy lathes, and to some extent that is true. They're nothing like as well-made as my 1941 South Bend Heavy 10L, but they're a great deal better than junk. I was the problem. I couldn't measure accurately. I can do that now. I can dial in material in a 4-jaw chuck, and get to within .0001 if I care to do so. Most of what I am doing doesn't require that level of accuracy, for either school projects or my own.

My own projects are kind of varied. I made a tool to disassemble a rotating center that had bad bearings. I've made some machine shafts for small machines. I still haven't been able to make a good Morse taper, but expect I'll figure it out one of these days, when I can concentrate on that for a while. Bearing blade guides for an old Craftsman bandsaw. I'm working on a faceplate for a Unimat lathe right now, and have several other parts and accessories queued up for it, too. T-nuts, milling tables, etc. I've bought a couple of parts, and assembled a few more I had laying about for other purposes to make a bearing puller for the spindle bearing on my Smithy 3-in-1 machine. Need to spray some more WD-40 on it, and let the tension pull that bearing. The machine sat in someone else's shop from 1997 until about a year ago. All the grease has dried, and the cosmoline was never removed. Once I get this bearing off, I can start cleaning up the spindle, and put it back together. Then I should have a second lathe that is operational. One of my first projects on a lathe, I reworked the quill for an old Craftsman drill press. One of my younger brothers bent it. It would probably work fine for a woodworker, but I'm going to try again, and just make an entire quill. That was one of the things that prompted me to gripe to my wife about how hard it was to get stuff right, and resulted in my getting told to take another class. I'm a pretty good mechanic. If I practice enough, and keep at it, one of these years I'll be a good machinist, too. I know what it takes to do what I want to do, now. I'm still learning how to do it, and getting better at it. I've done a lot of jobs over the past 50 years, and know how to learn a new job. I expect to keep working at it, and practicing until they nail the box shut on me. And I've been reading the old books on machining, and the old magazines, and the hints and kinks books. You can figure out what is essential from that sort of material, too. Borrowing their experience (the knowledge of folks who've done stuff for years) is something I've done in several career fields. If a 4-jaw chuck wasn't essential, nobody would have developed one, and then refined the snot out of them. And centers were essential long before the 4-jaw chuck was created. There are drawings of center lathes that are thousands of years old.

Though a CNC machinist might not need them so badly. My class is a prerequisite for the CNC class at my school, so they concentrate on the things a guy would need to know to learn to use a CNC machine. Not my thing. Yet, anyway.

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)




On Wednesday, December 15, 2021, 12:17:25 PM CST, fred eisner <imsteamer21@...> wrote:


hi bill - im curious - how much time do you spend each week in your shop machining - thanks fred


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 4:07 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?
 
The Atlas I mentioned came with a 3-jaw that was out by .014", and nothing I could do to it improved the situation. That's why I got the 4-jaw for it. First thing I bough for my 7x mini-lathe, which was my first lathe, was a 5" 4-jaw. If I could have gotten the backplate off it, to put another backplate on that fit the Atlas, I'd have just moved that chuck to it. Most of my other accessories worked fine on it. Both have MT2 tailstocks, and MT3 spindles, etc.

I've mentioned that I'm taking a class in precision manual machining, I think. They do not teach turning between centers anymore. Even though it's the best way to get the ultimate accuracy out of a lathe. I have live and dead centers for all of my lathes except the new Unimats. And I intend to make a set of those, as well. Including a negative center. It has a 60 degree recess, instead of point. You can put a ball bearing in there, and turn stuff off-axis to get a taper, for for holding a machine shaft that doesn't have center-drilled ends. A faceplate and a set of centers and a dog or two and you can make just about anything you need, including accurate leadscrews.

I've only been in the class for a very part-time 7 years, this February, been slow-leaking it terribly. Since I am allowed to work on their machines for projects of my own. And I've read a bunch of the old books from the 1860's on, about machining. My shop has a metal shaper, even though they are very obsolete now, because they will do things you cannot do on a milling machine. Also have both horizontal and vertical mills. Again, they will do things the other type cannot do. It took me 35 years to get my first lathe. 37 for a shaper. I got my first South Bend lathe 46 years after my first class, when I discovered I loved machining. I just traded my 7x mini-lathe for a ragged out Unimat SL, and am restoring it, and got enough cash out of the deal to buy another that wasn't as bad, but it's getting an overhaul too. I'll have 5 lathes, 5 mills, a shaper, 3 drill presses, and 3 bandsaws, with some overlaps in there. Three of the machines, the Smithy CB-1220XL and the Unimats, can be a lathe or a mill, or a drill press, though I'll probably never use them as drill presses, as I have the 3 real drill presses.

Yes, centers are essential, too. ;)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)




On Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 02:40:55 PM CST, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:


Bill,


I use a 4 jaw more than a 3 jaw. In addition to the obvious uses for square or octagon bar, it is used for holding anything irregular and even round objects that need machining off centre. A typical example of the last named is an eccentric for a steam engine. Our big Broadbent only has a 4 jaw that doubles as a faceplate, and I've struck the 3 jaw off my wish list having now lived with it since 2007. If push comes to shove, I can hold a 3 jaw off one of our other lathes in the 4 jaw, bringing the benefit of being able to centre it properly.


So far, nobody has mentioned turning between centres. That is the most basic operation, but is absolutely wonderful for machining anything that needs lots of trial fits such as something that is assembled with a shallow taper. No worries about setting things back running true no matter how many times you take it off the machine. Also for machining long tapers if you don't have a TTA and you have to offset the tailstock. It is absolutely essential to turn railway axles between centres.


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill in OKC too via groups.io" <wmrmeyers@...>
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, 14 Dec, 21 At 17:39
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

I'm not a professional machinist. But I have learned that a QCTP is very useful. Particularly when you have very limited shop time. Once you have all your dozens of tool holders set up, anyway. :) There are things you can do with a QCTP that can't be done, or done as easily, with a lantern-style toolpost. And vice versa. Some things are easier with the lantern style. You should have both.

You only need a 4-jaw independent-jaw chuck if you're going to be turning square or octagon stock, or you need more accuracy than your 3-jaw allows. It takes a couple of minutes to adjust a piece of stock in a 4-jaw so there is little or no runout. Though it's easier with a collet chuck and collets for round stock, and some types of collets will take square or hex stock. They're another thing you can spend big money on. :)

You can get by with next to nothing, but it is more fun if you have every tool known to man. From my experience, I can tell you that it's cheaper to buy stuff as you find you need it. Not that that's how I did it for most of my stuff... ;)

If you're not already a machinist, play with what you have and figure out what you need for what you want to do. Get the tools you need for a particular project. Or make them yourself. I've done some of each. I got an Atlas TH42 a few years ago. First things I bought it were a 4-jaw chuck & a QCTP. I had to make a rocker for the lantern post, as it was missing. The only lathe I don't currently have a 4-jaw for is my SB Heavy 10L. It's a restoration project. Once it's running, which may be several years yet, it will get one of each. And it's own toolholders! :) I've even bought a 4-jaw for the Unimat. I consider them essential if you don't have a collet chuck and a good set of collets. Naturally, YMMV. :)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)





On Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 10:01:14 AM CST, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ... first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch. i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business. never missed a QC . after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production, you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine. so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged. plenty of you-tubes on this. a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) . your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy " factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ... i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ...

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

fred eisner
 

hi bill - im curious - how much time do you spend each week in your shop machining - thanks fred


From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> on behalf of Bill in OKC too via groups.io <wmrmeyers@...>
Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2021 4:07 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?
 
The Atlas I mentioned came with a 3-jaw that was out by .014", and nothing I could do to it improved the situation. That's why I got the 4-jaw for it. First thing I bough for my 7x mini-lathe, which was my first lathe, was a 5" 4-jaw. If I could have gotten the backplate off it, to put another backplate on that fit the Atlas, I'd have just moved that chuck to it. Most of my other accessories worked fine on it. Both have MT2 tailstocks, and MT3 spindles, etc.

I've mentioned that I'm taking a class in precision manual machining, I think. They do not teach turning between centers anymore. Even though it's the best way to get the ultimate accuracy out of a lathe. I have live and dead centers for all of my lathes except the new Unimats. And I intend to make a set of those, as well. Including a negative center. It has a 60 degree recess, instead of point. You can put a ball bearing in there, and turn stuff off-axis to get a taper, for for holding a machine shaft that doesn't have center-drilled ends. A faceplate and a set of centers and a dog or two and you can make just about anything you need, including accurate leadscrews.

I've only been in the class for a very part-time 7 years, this February, been slow-leaking it terribly. Since I am allowed to work on their machines for projects of my own. And I've read a bunch of the old books from the 1860's on, about machining. My shop has a metal shaper, even though they are very obsolete now, because they will do things you cannot do on a milling machine. Also have both horizontal and vertical mills. Again, they will do things the other type cannot do. It took me 35 years to get my first lathe. 37 for a shaper. I got my first South Bend lathe 46 years after my first class, when I discovered I loved machining. I just traded my 7x mini-lathe for a ragged out Unimat SL, and am restoring it, and got enough cash out of the deal to buy another that wasn't as bad, but it's getting an overhaul too. I'll have 5 lathes, 5 mills, a shaper, 3 drill presses, and 3 bandsaws, with some overlaps in there. Three of the machines, the Smithy CB-1220XL and the Unimats, can be a lathe or a mill, or a drill press, though I'll probably never use them as drill presses, as I have the 3 real drill presses.

Yes, centers are essential, too. ;)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)




On Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 02:40:55 PM CST, eddie.draper@... via groups.io <eddie.draper@...> wrote:


Bill,


I use a 4 jaw more than a 3 jaw. In addition to the obvious uses for square or octagon bar, it is used for holding anything irregular and even round objects that need machining off centre. A typical example of the last named is an eccentric for a steam engine. Our big Broadbent only has a 4 jaw that doubles as a faceplate, and I've struck the 3 jaw off my wish list having now lived with it since 2007. If push comes to shove, I can hold a 3 jaw off one of our other lathes in the 4 jaw, bringing the benefit of being able to centre it properly.


So far, nobody has mentioned turning between centres. That is the most basic operation, but is absolutely wonderful for machining anything that needs lots of trial fits such as something that is assembled with a shallow taper. No worries about setting things back running true no matter how many times you take it off the machine. Also for machining long tapers if you don't have a TTA and you have to offset the tailstock. It is absolutely essential to turn railway axles between centres.


Eddie




------ Original Message ------
From: "Bill in OKC too via groups.io" <wmrmeyers@...>
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, 14 Dec, 21 At 17:39
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

I'm not a professional machinist. But I have learned that a QCTP is very useful. Particularly when you have very limited shop time. Once you have all your dozens of tool holders set up, anyway. :) There are things you can do with a QCTP that can't be done, or done as easily, with a lantern-style toolpost. And vice versa. Some things are easier with the lantern style. You should have both.

You only need a 4-jaw independent-jaw chuck if you're going to be turning square or octagon stock, or you need more accuracy than your 3-jaw allows. It takes a couple of minutes to adjust a piece of stock in a 4-jaw so there is little or no runout. Though it's easier with a collet chuck and collets for round stock, and some types of collets will take square or hex stock. They're another thing you can spend big money on. :)

You can get by with next to nothing, but it is more fun if you have every tool known to man. From my experience, I can tell you that it's cheaper to buy stuff as you find you need it. Not that that's how I did it for most of my stuff... ;)

If you're not already a machinist, play with what you have and figure out what you need for what you want to do. Get the tools you need for a particular project. Or make them yourself. I've done some of each. I got an Atlas TH42 a few years ago. First things I bought it were a 4-jaw chuck & a QCTP. I had to make a rocker for the lantern post, as it was missing. The only lathe I don't currently have a 4-jaw for is my SB Heavy 10L. It's a restoration project. Once it's running, which may be several years yet, it will get one of each. And it's own toolholders! :) I've even bought a 4-jaw for the Unimat. I consider them essential if you don't have a collet chuck and a good set of collets. Naturally, YMMV. :)

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)





On Tuesday, December 14, 2021, 10:01:14 AM CST, ken campbell <deltainc@...> wrote:


Whoa ! ... first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch. i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business. never missed a QC . after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production, you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine. so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged. plenty of you-tubes on this. a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) . your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy " factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ... i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ...

ken



Re: Need advice- 9" with no tooling - do I keep it?

mike allen
 

        I do @ 90 % of my sharpening on my 6x48 belt sander & then go to the grinder for the final touches . For most of my grinding I have a white wheel on one grinder & the some green wheels on my fancy tool grinder . You want to learn how to sharpen your tool bits . Once you master that you will find it real easy to make special form tool bits for cutting radius's , grooves & so on .

        animal

On 12/14/2021 8:01 AM, ken campbell wrote:
Whoa ! ...  first of all, you don't need an axa QC tool post to do most anything you are going to make 1 or 2 of on a 9 inch.  i ran a 9 Logan for 3 years and made runs of a few dozen when starting my business.  never missed a QC .   after a little practice it only takes a minute to set your lantern cutter ... and you can buy used lantern tooling cutters for about nothing dollars.

for learning or making 95 per cent of anything at all non-production,  you can also learn a whole lot by grinding those cheap tool bits yourself.

buy yourself a decent, but not necessarily expensive ... tool grinder. the shaft size should be standard for stones from a tooling house, then you can add wire brushes and polishing wheels as desired.

you won't need a 4 jaw unless you are doing odd shaped parts or finishing demanding parts made in another machine.  so i would save that money for other tooling as you need it for that exact job.

check your 3 jaw before you get discouraged.  plenty of you-tubes on this.   a 3 jaw with 0.004 runout isn't too bad ... you just have to start with 0.005 oversize stock ( g ) .  your part will finish true.

*******************
and of course, ... there is the " kid with new toy "  factor .. we all know you are going to be picking up on a whim all the gadgets you think would be cool for your new machine... heh ...  i am retired after 40 years of machining ... and i still watch ebay for gadgets for my SB13 ... ! ... sometimes i even find one i don't already have two of already or more rarely one i actually need ... 

ken


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