Date   

Re: Oil help

Colin Fera
 

ISO 68 and ISO 32 are hydraulic oils that are commonly sold at tractor shops. I’ve purchase all 3 oils in low volume from amazon. 


On Mar 23, 2020, at 05:00, Fred Flintstone via Groups.Io <stoeger666@...> wrote:


Hi all,

I hope you are staying well,

While I am at home and enjoying my lathe I am running low on oil, can some one tell me the European equivalent of the oils below?:



  South Bend Lathe "A" type oil, which is Mobile Velocite #10 spindle lubricant. This will be used in the headstock spindle
                        bearings.

  South Bend Lathe "B" type oil.  which is Mobil DTE 24 (ISO 32), which will be used in your gearbox.


  South Bend Lathe "C" type oil,  which is Mobil DTE Heavy/Medium (ISO 68), which will be used to lubricate "everything else".
                        (that would be screws, external gears, tailstock, etc.)

  South Bend Way Oil, which is Mobil Vactra #2 Way Oil, which will be used to lubricate the sliding Way surfaces of the lathe,
                        (The ways, compound and cross slide).




Or if there is now better oil than those listed please let me know.

Thank you all in advance,
Stoeger


Re: Oil help

Christian Nafzger
 

Hi Stoeger,

I recently bought oil for my "new" Model A 9" lathe from a German shop.
Here is the order list with the respective letters (A-D, D for the way oil).

image.png

You can also look at the shop page for more info regarding the norms and specifications. E.g.: https://www.oeltech-apeler.de/product_info.php?info=p1536_avantol-bett--und-gleitbahnoel-cglp-iso-vg-68---1-litres.html
Its in German, but maybe this helps (you can switch to English, but then there is less information).

Cheers,
Chris

Am Mo., 23. März 2020 um 13:00 Uhr schrieb Fred Flintstone via Groups.Io <stoeger666=yahoo.com@groups.io>:

Hi all,

I hope you are staying well,

While I am at home and enjoying my lathe I am running low on oil, can some one tell me the European equivalent of the oils below?:



  South Bend Lathe "A" type oil, which is Mobile Velocite #10 spindle lubricant. This will be used in the headstock spindle
                        bearings.

  South Bend Lathe "B" type oil.  which is Mobil DTE 24 (ISO 32), which will be used in your gearbox.


  South Bend Lathe "C" type oil,  which is Mobil DTE Heavy/Medium (ISO 68), which will be used to lubricate "everything else".
                        (that would be screws, external gears, tailstock, etc.)

  South Bend Way Oil, which is Mobil Vactra #2 Way Oil, which will be used to lubricate the sliding Way surfaces of the lathe,
                        (The ways, compound and cross slide).




Or if there is now better oil than those listed please let me know.

Thank you all in advance,
Stoeger


Oil help

Fred Flintstone
 

Hi all,

I hope you are staying well,

While I am at home and enjoying my lathe I am running low on oil, can some one tell me the European equivalent of the oils below?:



  South Bend Lathe "A" type oil, which is Mobile Velocite #10 spindle lubricant. This will be used in the headstock spindle
                        bearings.

  South Bend Lathe "B" type oil.  which is Mobil DTE 24 (ISO 32), which will be used in your gearbox.


  South Bend Lathe "C" type oil,  which is Mobil DTE Heavy/Medium (ISO 68), which will be used to lubricate "everything else".
                        (that would be screws, external gears, tailstock, etc.)

  South Bend Way Oil, which is Mobil Vactra #2 Way Oil, which will be used to lubricate the sliding Way surfaces of the lathe,
                        (The ways, compound and cross slide).




Or if there is now better oil than those listed please let me know.

Thank you all in advance,
Stoeger


Re: New to me 14.5" and need some help

Steven H
 

Two other resources:

Facebook: South Bend Lathe BUY SELL TRADE group

www.Groups.io SouthBendLathe 

Steve Haskell

On Mar 22, 2020, at 10:02 PM, Steven H via Groups.Io <stevesmachining@...> wrote:

Another great info resource is 
www.wswells.com

Steve Haskell

On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:35 PM, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:



        go here & wright what parts yer lookin for & this guy will be able to help ya out

        Ted /Latheman he used to work for SouthBend & bought up a bunch of their parts

        https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/  

        animal   

On 3/22/2020 6:25 PM, Todd wrote:
I just acquired a 14.5 x 60 and will be needing some help with parts.  See it was bought, disassembled, started to be cleaned/painted and then sat in boxes for a few years.  What I know it's missing is the compound dial, screw and nut. The motor and motor pulley (4 groove), some of the taper attachment, the oil well on the back of the apron.. !! and a few other niceties.  I'm sure I will find a few other misc items of need and I understand these are the rare birds of the S.B. world. Is there anywhere I can find a parts manual to assist in reassembly ?  Also, the serial number is 2265FKL12  if anyone can decipher the date.

  Thanks, Todd


Re: New to me 14.5" and need some help

Steven H
 

Another great info resource is 
www.wswells.com

Steve Haskell

On Mar 22, 2020, at 9:35 PM, mike allen <animal@...> wrote:



        go here & wright what parts yer lookin for & this guy will be able to help ya out

        Ted /Latheman he used to work for SouthBend & bought up a bunch of their parts

        https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/  

        animal   

On 3/22/2020 6:25 PM, Todd wrote:
I just acquired a 14.5 x 60 and will be needing some help with parts.  See it was bought, disassembled, started to be cleaned/painted and then sat in boxes for a few years.  What I know it's missing is the compound dial, screw and nut. The motor and motor pulley (4 groove), some of the taper attachment, the oil well on the back of the apron.. !! and a few other niceties.  I'm sure I will find a few other misc items of need and I understand these are the rare birds of the S.B. world. Is there anywhere I can find a parts manual to assist in reassembly ?  Also, the serial number is 2265FKL12  if anyone can decipher the date.

  Thanks, Todd


Re: New to me 14.5" and need some help

Bill in OKC too
 

You might want to buy this book:

https://www.amazon.com/Guide-Renovating-South-Lathe-Models/dp/1482334585/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=south+bend+heavy+10+lathe+book&qid=1584928328&sr=8-1

I bought it for my Heavy 10L, and it also covers your 14-1/2" lathe. I got the set that has the felts as well, you might want to the version with felts for your lathe if you don't have them already.

the book is invaluable to me for disassembly. Since you didn't get to do that, it will be invaluable for assembly, as well, I expect! Doesn't look like Amazon has the felts you might need, but they're also sold on ebay with the same book.

HTH!

Bill in OKC

William R. Meyers, MSgt, USAF(Ret.)


A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion,
butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance
accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders,
give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new
problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight
efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
LAZARUS LONG (Robert A. Heinlein)




On Sunday, March 22, 2020, 08:29:25 PM CDT, Todd <belvedere66@...> wrote:


I just acquired a 14.5 x 60 and will be needing some help with parts.  See it was bought, disassembled, started to be cleaned/painted and then sat in boxes for a few years.  What I know it's missing is the compound dial, screw and nut. The motor and motor pulley (4 groove), some of the taper attachment, the oil well on the back of the apron.. !! and a few other niceties.  I'm sure I will find a few other misc items of need and I understand these are the rare birds of the S.B. world. Is there anywhere I can find a parts manual to assist in reassembly ?  Also, the serial number is 2265FKL12  if anyone can decipher the date.

  Thanks, Todd


it's alive!!!! - first run of a SB13B I am working on

Des
 

 
https://youtu.be/sNumbAgICXI

still a lot of work to do, but it's actually turning now. A very big shout out to Steve Wells for the assist on the overhead countershaft speed figure.

Des in Oz (Australia)


Re: New to me 14.5" and need some help

mike allen
 

        go here & wright what parts yer lookin for & this guy will be able to help ya out

        Ted /Latheman he used to work for SouthBend & bought up a bunch of their parts

        https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/south-bend-lathes/  

        animal   

On 3/22/2020 6:25 PM, Todd wrote:
I just acquired a 14.5 x 60 and will be needing some help with parts.  See it was bought, disassembled, started to be cleaned/painted and then sat in boxes for a few years.  What I know it's missing is the compound dial, screw and nut. The motor and motor pulley (4 groove), some of the taper attachment, the oil well on the back of the apron.. !! and a few other niceties.  I'm sure I will find a few other misc items of need and I understand these are the rare birds of the S.B. world. Is there anywhere I can find a parts manual to assist in reassembly ?  Also, the serial number is 2265FKL12  if anyone can decipher the date.

  Thanks, Todd


New to me 14.5" and need some help

Todd
 

I just acquired a 14.5 x 60 and will be needing some help with parts.  See it was bought, disassembled, started to be cleaned/painted and then sat in boxes for a few years.  What I know it's missing is the compound dial, screw and nut. The motor and motor pulley (4 groove), some of the taper attachment, the oil well on the back of the apron.. !! and a few other niceties.  I'm sure I will find a few other misc items of need and I understand these are the rare birds of the S.B. world. Is there anywhere I can find a parts manual to assist in reassembly ?  Also, the serial number is 2265FKL12  if anyone can decipher the date.

  Thanks, Todd


Re: D1-4 chuck setup

Colin Fera
 

Thanks for the advice and videos. This has been resolved. I pulled the cams out of the spindle, there were allot of burs on them. This lathe came with a collet closer where there was a sleeve to mount the actual collet allowing the cam holes to fill with chips and swarf. I suspect that the previous owner crushed the chips with the cams leading to significant burs on the cams. I de-burred the cams and got about a tablespoon of crushed up chips and dust out of the holes. Re assembled and torqued the chuck in with a torque wrench and now the chuck face is true within 3-4 tenths and the chuck body which doesn't even matter is true within a couple thou. I don't have the patience to try and measure the chuck jaws relative to the chuck face (I guess that would be perpendicularity?). I am pretty happy with tenths from the chuck face (and this was the first mount) for such a cheap setup. I paid about 50 cents per pound for this stuff, I have no illusions of being able to do work for NASA. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 4:42 PM ww_big_al <arknack@...> wrote:

If you want, Adam Booth talks about the cam locks, checking and setting. It starts at 22 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsPuJ4RizLs

Finishes in part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ERnlgEUr4

Al

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Holmes
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 7:26 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] D1-4 chuck setup

 

Sounds like it might be staying on the taper only and not bottoming out on the flat registers ?

 

On 22 Mar 2020, at 10:16 AM, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

3 pins only.  This is a D1-4 spindle. D1-5 and D1-6 are 6 pin spindles. This seems like the common camlock spindle for lathes in the 10-13 inch range including the heavy 10 when that has a camlock.  It definitely does lock up. Removing the chuck after its locked requires a tap with a mallet. 

 

I just spoke to my mechanical engineer friend and he is suggesting I take the cams out of the spindle and blow out and clean the camlock holes. Basically saying that chips and maybe Chinese grinding dust could get in there and take up some of the torque applied to the cams so that when you think you have them close to evenly applied torque your actually not very close and so your pulling unevenly on the chuck.

 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:00 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

 

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

 

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

 

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

 

Eddie

 

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 

 

 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

 

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

 

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

 

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

 

Eddie

 

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

 

I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: D1-4 chuck setup

ww_big_al
 

If you want, Adam Booth talks about the cam locks, checking and setting. It starts at 22 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsPuJ4RizLs

Finishes in part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ERnlgEUr4

Al

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io <SouthBendLathe@groups.io> On Behalf Of Jon Holmes
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2020 7:26 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] D1-4 chuck setup

 

Sounds like it might be staying on the taper only and not bottoming out on the flat registers ?

 

On 22 Mar 2020, at 10:16 AM, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

3 pins only.  This is a D1-4 spindle. D1-5 and D1-6 are 6 pin spindles. This seems like the common camlock spindle for lathes in the 10-13 inch range including the heavy 10 when that has a camlock.  It definitely does lock up. Removing the chuck after its locked requires a tap with a mallet. 

 

I just spoke to my mechanical engineer friend and he is suggesting I take the cams out of the spindle and blow out and clean the camlock holes. Basically saying that chips and maybe Chinese grinding dust could get in there and take up some of the torque applied to the cams so that when you think you have them close to evenly applied torque your actually not very close and so your pulling unevenly on the chuck.

 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:00 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

 

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

 

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

 

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

 

Eddie

 

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

 

Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 

 

 

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

 

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

 

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

 

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

 

Eddie

 

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

 

 

I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  

 

 

 

 

 

 


Re: D1-4 chuck setup

Jon Holmes <j_sholmes@...>
 

Sounds like it might be staying on the taper only and not bottoming out on the flat registers ?

On 22 Mar 2020, at 10:16 AM, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:

3 pins only.  This is a D1-4 spindle. D1-5 and D1-6 are 6 pin spindles. This seems like the common camlock spindle for lathes in the 10-13 inch range including the heavy 10 when that has a camlock.  It definitely does lock up. Removing the chuck after its locked requires a tap with a mallet. 

I just spoke to my mechanical engineer friend and he is suggesting I take the cams out of the spindle and blow out and clean the camlock holes. Basically saying that chips and maybe Chinese grinding dust could get in there and take up some of the torque applied to the cams so that when you think you have them close to evenly applied torque your actually not very close and so your pulling unevenly on the chuck.

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:00 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  







Re: D1-4 chuck setup

Colin Fera
 

3 pins only.  This is a D1-4 spindle. D1-5 and D1-6 are 6 pin spindles. This seems like the common camlock spindle for lathes in the 10-13 inch range including the heavy 10 when that has a camlock.  It definitely does lock up. Removing the chuck after its locked requires a tap with a mallet. 

I just spoke to my mechanical engineer friend and he is suggesting I take the cams out of the spindle and blow out and clean the camlock holes. Basically saying that chips and maybe Chinese grinding dust could get in there and take up some of the torque applied to the cams so that when you think you have them close to evenly applied torque your actually not very close and so your pulling unevenly on the chuck.

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 3:00 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


Re: D1-4 chuck setup

eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

Are you saying you only have 3 pins on the chuck or the sockets on the spindle?  I've only ever seen 6 sockets, but things like catchplates usually have only 3 pins.  Every chuck or faceplate I've seen has 6 pins.

If you only have 3 pins to go at, then snugging one and hard tightening its opposite isn't an option!  You have to snug all then tighten all to seat the cone correctly.

If one of the cams is showing resistance gradually increasing over a significant rotation, then investigate that area.  The D1-6 on our Colchester Triumph 2000 just goes suddenly solid.  If it doesn't, there's dirt in the way.  I suggest for a start you could check the taper hole in the chuck for blemishes.

To check the need for adjustment on taper rollers on a horizontal shaft, use your DTI on an end face and crowbar the spindle for & aft as close as possible to its centreline, but note that for a true reading, the shaft must be rotated slightly while under load in order to settle the rollers into their correct location.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 21:37:01 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


Re: D1-4 chuck setup

Colin Fera
 

Thanks for the reply, I don't think anything is wrong with the spindle, less than 3 tenths of runout seems reasonable to me for a Chinese lathe. I am measuring with a good mitutoyo test indicator. This apparently has tapered roller bearings in the spindle and they could potentially use some adjustment. If thats the issue the weight of the chuck would probably tend to pull the spindle out a bit against the taper. The guy that loaded the lathe for me used a forklift to pick it up under the ways with a strap (there was no chuck mounted at the time). This is a really cheap 12x36 lathe (the fully enclosed gear box style) but it appears to have seen almost no use and all of the surfaces and even the paint is like new. 

One other thing that was a bit strange during this process perhaps was that one of the camlocks was a bit tighter than the others and began to engage before the first mark and settled between the marks about 1/3 of the way past the first mark where as the other 2 had no engagement at all until they just crossed the first mark and tightened up about 3/4 of the way to the second mark. 


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:02 PM eddie.draper@... via Groups.Io <eddie.draper=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


Re: D1-4 chuck setup

eddie.draper@btinternet.com
 

You are right, Camlock spindles are supposed to align better than that.  The only adjustment they should need is the protrusion of the pins (achieved by removing the locking screw and screwing the pin itself in or out) so that the line on each locking cam head lies between the 2 lines scribed at right angles to each other on the spindle flange.  You must then fit the chuck or whatever only in the same orientation thereafter, achieved by a line on the flange and a line on the chuck.  Both should already have the line.  You should not transfer chucks between spindles without checking for the correct locking angle of the cam.

Tighten the cams No. 1 snug, no. 4 tight, No. 1 tight, then 2, 3, 5 & 6 all tight.

The taper the chuck seats onto should look after the rest.  Is that or the chuck taper damaged?  It seats on the taper, not the flat.

Doesn't sound like your lathe has been craned via a sling around the chuck  (gets done by non specialist removers, can bend the spindle), but check carefully.  Problem most likely lies in your chuck, I suspect.

Eddie

On Saturday, 21 March 2020, 20:28:46 GMT, Colin Fera <colin.fera@...> wrote:


I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


D1-4 chuck setup

Colin Fera
 

I just recently picked up a too cheap to pass up cheap lathe on craigslist with a D1-4 camlock spindle. I cleaned and lightly stoned the spindle surfaces which look nearly new and checked for runout with a tenths indicator and I am getting about .00025" runout on the spindle face and a bit less on the taper. A cheap fuerda 4 jaw 8" chuck came with the lathe It has the D1-4 mount integral. After cleaning and stoning the flat surfaces on the chuck I installed the chuck and check for runout and had about .005". I rotated to each of the 3 positions and had about the same runout with each. I used a couple of different techniques with the camlocks, first I just snugged and then tightened them in no particular order, attempt 2 was to tighten them clockwise and then finally counter clockwise order, this made no difference and I was always getting at least .0045" runout

 Finally I tried something different, I very lightly tightened the camlocks after remounting the chuck and used the tenths indicator on the face and basically tightened the camlocks like aligning work in a 4 jaw using the camlocks to pull the face into alignment tightening a little at a time and was able to get the chuck face to within .0003-.0004" by the time the camlocks were fully tight. As this is a 4 jaw independent jaw chuck I am figuring that the most important factor is having the face of the chuck perpendicular to spindle rather than checking with a test bar. The point of this whole post finally. 

I thought that camlock spindles where supposed to repeat better than this. Is this alignment and installation process normal?  


Re: 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

John Dammeyer
 

Hi Colin,

I started the conversion back in about 2008 but then the recession and work got in the way.  The DC Servos I have are also 10 years old along with the HP_UHU drives that are now using a new processor module with a dsPIC instead of the older ATMEL.

 

The encoders on the Bergerda are 2500 line with quadrature good to 10,000 pulses and that information is also available on a set of A/B outputs scaled by a num/denom pair of parameters.    If I eventually go toothed belt drive and 1:1 then I could use that for the spindle position too.

 

The Bergerda drives can take the usual step/dir signal sets.  Either with open collector drivers and you can scale the step pulses in to match the encoder simulating a smaller encoder or differential pair for up to 500kHz which I've verified with the MESA board. 

 

As I currently have it connected for the spindle, with 0V-10V or +/-10V etc.   I will change that to step/dir but for now the parallel port MACH3 cannot do that high speed stepping but can do PWM. LinuxCNC  MESA can't do PWM and STEP on the same pins the way MACH can so for now I'm staying with the single parallel port so I can swap OS on the dual boot PC.   For now then PWM is fine.

 

How are you using the DMM drives?  I got the feeling they are in an automation project.  Not on a mill?

 

John

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of Colin Fera
Sent: March-16-20 4:15 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

 

Hey John,

 

The DMM DYN4 runs directly on 110-240v, the 750w motor is $194 and the drive is $218 http://www.dmm-tech.com/Dyn4_main.html. I think I got them for a bit more in 2015 but got free shipping with a winter special. I haven't used their low voltage drives at all. When I got these back in 2015 there was very little competition in this price range. I haven't priced alternatives recently but will do that when I go to convert the asian lathe I recently bought to CNC and will be sure to look at the ones you mentioned.  What I like about the absolute position encoders is that it sends the new position continuously so there is no risk of missing a pulse due to noise it also retains position while the drive is asleep. As a side benefit you can set the number of steps per revolution to any value up to something like 8k if that'ts the control method your using. The drives also provide a quadrature output from the drive that can also be set for any resolution you need. I actually have the quadrature output from the drive going into the PLC that is controlling it so not only is the drive closing the loop around position the PLC is then closing the loop around the drive. In the future I am going to do this with glass scales so that it can close the loop around the actual position of the mill table ( also I have a bin full of glass scales that someone gave me and I have to justify holding onto them). 

 

Your setup looks pretty well thought out.  I actually have a kawasaki 3.5kw servo motor that I will eventually put on the mill in place of the spindle motor. The frame size is also 130mm and its really long motor heavy motor (25mm shaft and at least 40 pounds). I have a couple of large surplus drives one is rated at 10kw and one is listed at 5hp, as these things go I don't yet know if either of them work.  This is on a 2hp bridgeport boss4 rigid ram. The  reason I am overpowering it so much is I want just 2 speed ranges. One for large drilling large holes that I want to very seldom use say 0-1000 RPM. and one for everything else, say 750-15000 rpm that will let me effectively use tiny end-mills and engraving bits obviously this is without any of the original stuff that supported the varispeed. I will be driving the spindle through a shop made aluminum pulley.

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:45 PM John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:

Hi Colin,

I don't believe the absolute encoder makes any difference as the software inside the drive will translate that into tracking step pulses if that method is used for control.

 

The cost for the Bergerda 0.4kW motor/drive for the X axis was $280 w/o shipping which compares favourably with the DMM kit for CNC conversion except theirs needs a 48V supply and mine runs directly off 220VAC.

 

I went with the servo for the Mill Spindle because looking around showed that a new 3 phase plus higher end VFD were more than what the AC Servo 1.8kW spindle motor/drive cost me.

 

I must admit I'm second guessing myself whether I should have bought a 1.8kW 130mm frame size motor or the 110mm frame size.  The 110mm sure is small which you can see in that PWMspindle-2,jpg I posted in an earlier message.  If the DB-25 connectors don't give a sense of scale the motor pulley I cast and turned is 3.25" diameter.

 

The 130mm was bigger, had a larger shaft plus the Bergerda was rated at 2500 RPM so I'd have to slightly step up the speed.

 

Contrast that with the existing 2HP single phase 220 VAC motor on the mill that is 8" diameter on a 10" mounting plate and has that characteristic AC hum when it's turning.  The AC servo is virtually noise free I have to look over to the spot where it's sitting to verify it's turning when LinuxCNC says run at 300 RPM.

 

I suspect, for how I use the mill, or at least intend on using the mill, that the 110mm frame size motor will be perfect.  If not, I can replace the motor with a larger servo/pulley without changing anything else.  And if that were the case I'd probably have a project or job where the cost of a bigger motor was a minor consideration.

 

And of course if that were the case I could put it on the South Bend.

 

Anyway, the attached 3D PDF shows what I'm casting as 3 plates to mount the motor so it's moved to the idler pulley position and theoretically I'll have 0 to 3000 RPM.   The front plate with the small hole for the spindle will also hold the power draw bar assembly.  The large hole at the back of the main plate is mostly just to save aluminium for casting.  But theoretically the original motor could be mounted back there on its own plate and the idler pulley mounted on a plate where the servo sits.  Can't see ever doing that.  Be easier to just re-install the cast iron assembly with the 2 HP motor.

 

John Dammeyer

 

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of Colin Fera
Sent: March-16-20 12:37 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

 

The dmm drives use 16bit serial absolute position encoders They aren’t really similar to any Chinese drives that I’ve seen.  Where the components are manufactured I don’t know.

 

I’m powering them on my cnc mill from 240v ac. I have never seen any servo drive packages able to run directly on 240v that are close to that price point. I think they also make dc powered drives but I wanted to get away from the big power supply that came with the mill When it ran steppers.  I paid around $500 per axis when I got them including cabling. The service has also been really good at one point the offered to ship me a new drive with return packaging for the old one but that problem turned out to be a bad signal ground.

 

In industry or at least in my industry (which isn’t cnc machining) A servo

Is any motor that closes the loop on position or speed and A Brushless dc servo is a servo that has a trapezoidal back emf where as an ac  servo is any servo with a sinusoidal back

Emf. A Dc servos has a brushed dc motor. The point is that it has nothing to do with the drives input power. All of these drives are rectifying the input ac to dc and in fact will probably run equally well on high voltage dc.

 

 

On Mar 16, 2020, at 10:23, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:



There are two types of systems that both use the word servo.  Both are accurate but dramatically different.  

 

In the model airplane remote control world we have servos.  These are small DC motors with gearing and a potentiometer on the output shaft feeding back position between usually 0 and 300 degrees of motion.

 

In the CNC motion control world we also have servos.  There are motors, as explained below by jahick4 that have some sort of feedback directly on the motor shaft.  In the past resolvers, more often now encoders.  

 

DC Servos like the ones I bought from automation technologies are brushed DC motors that are run with a DC voltage and a driver that changes the direction of current in the winding to make the motor change direction.  Max voltage results in max speed.  The controller varies this voltage through electrical chopping along with encoder feedback set a different speed and precise distances via a PID tuned algorithm.

 

Brushless DC motors change current through the windings and generally have 3 sensors set 120 degrees apart so that the controller knows which winding to energize.  In the brushed ones of course the commutator takes care of that.

 

AC Servo motors are like 3 phase motors with three windings and generally also some sort of sensing feedback labeled U,V and W.  Also to help decide where the motor shaft is.  And like the DC servos have an encoder.

 

I don't know if there is an inherent advantage over AC or DC brushless motors.  The AC ones, like even the VFDs first convert the line AC into DC with a bridge and filter to produce about 380 VDC and then after that the driver stage take over using again a chopping technique to create 3 phases of AC separated by 120 degrees.   

 

The 3 phase AC motors aren't really designed to be held in a locked rotor position and then moved 25 encoder pulses and then locked again.  The AC servo and DC brushless are.  But for lathe spindles with a VFD they work great.

 

Where you do see DC Brushless is in things like fans where 3 sensors help commutate the winding current and PWM is applied to the windings to vary the fan speed.

 

That's about all I know about it.  There is a project from Germany called STMBL.  I have several of those.  I bought one to run the AC Servo Harmonic Drive 4th axis.  It can run a DC bushed servo but I was never able to tune it well enough for that which is why I went to the Brushless Bergerda stuff.

 

John Dammeyer

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of jahick4@...
Sent: March-16-20 8:25 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

 

8:58am   

 

Sorry to sound ignorant, but what is the difference between a servo and a regular motor?

A DC motor is generally just a simple machine which uses electromagnetic energy to spin the shaft. We can control things like speed with pulse width modulation or reduction of power applied, but there’s really only two wires, power and ground.

A servo motor is different in that you can add an encoder into the mix, so there will be a power, ground and data wire. The encoder allows for really precise movements and applications of power (helpful in starting and stopping amongst other things). They can run at very high RPMs and can deliver a lot of torque. As I understand it, some can even safely produce double their torque rating in short bursts.


I don’t know if servo motors were always so capable - I seem to recall that once upon a time they were limited to 180 degrees of movement. Obviously, that’s not the case now


Re: 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

Colin Fera
 

Hey John,

The DMM DYN4 runs directly on 110-240v, the 750w motor is $194 and the drive is $218 http://www.dmm-tech.com/Dyn4_main.html. I think I got them for a bit more in 2015 but got free shipping with a winter special. I haven't used their low voltage drives at all. When I got these back in 2015 there was very little competition in this price range. I haven't priced alternatives recently but will do that when I go to convert the asian lathe I recently bought to CNC and will be sure to look at the ones you mentioned.  What I like about the absolute position encoders is that it sends the new position continuously so there is no risk of missing a pulse due to noise it also retains position while the drive is asleep. As a side benefit you can set the number of steps per revolution to any value up to something like 8k if that'ts the control method your using. The drives also provide a quadrature output from the drive that can also be set for any resolution you need. I actually have the quadrature output from the drive going into the PLC that is controlling it so not only is the drive closing the loop around position the PLC is then closing the loop around the drive. In the future I am going to do this with glass scales so that it can close the loop around the actual position of the mill table ( also I have a bin full of glass scales that someone gave me and I have to justify holding onto them). 

Your setup looks pretty well thought out.  I actually have a kawasaki 3.5kw servo motor that I will eventually put on the mill in place of the spindle motor. The frame size is also 130mm and its really long motor heavy motor (25mm shaft and at least 40 pounds). I have a couple of large surplus drives one is rated at 10kw and one is listed at 5hp, as these things go I don't yet know if either of them work.  This is on a 2hp bridgeport boss4 rigid ram. The  reason I am overpowering it so much is I want just 2 speed ranges. One for large drilling large holes that I want to very seldom use say 0-1000 RPM. and one for everything else, say 750-15000 rpm that will let me effectively use tiny end-mills and engraving bits obviously this is without any of the original stuff that supported the varispeed. I will be driving the spindle through a shop made aluminum pulley.




On Mon, Mar 16, 2020 at 1:45 PM John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:

Hi Colin,

I don't believe the absolute encoder makes any difference as the software inside the drive will translate that into tracking step pulses if that method is used for control.

 

The cost for the Bergerda 0.4kW motor/drive for the X axis was $280 w/o shipping which compares favourably with the DMM kit for CNC conversion except theirs needs a 48V supply and mine runs directly off 220VAC.

 

I went with the servo for the Mill Spindle because looking around showed that a new 3 phase plus higher end VFD were more than what the AC Servo 1.8kW spindle motor/drive cost me.

 

I must admit I'm second guessing myself whether I should have bought a 1.8kW 130mm frame size motor or the 110mm frame size.  The 110mm sure is small which you can see in that PWMspindle-2,jpg I posted in an earlier message.  If the DB-25 connectors don't give a sense of scale the motor pulley I cast and turned is 3.25" diameter.

 

The 130mm was bigger, had a larger shaft plus the Bergerda was rated at 2500 RPM so I'd have to slightly step up the speed.

 

Contrast that with the existing 2HP single phase 220 VAC motor on the mill that is 8" diameter on a 10" mounting plate and has that characteristic AC hum when it's turning.  The AC servo is virtually noise free I have to look over to the spot where it's sitting to verify it's turning when LinuxCNC says run at 300 RPM.

 

I suspect, for how I use the mill, or at least intend on using the mill, that the 110mm frame size motor will be perfect.  If not, I can replace the motor with a larger servo/pulley without changing anything else.  And if that were the case I'd probably have a project or job where the cost of a bigger motor was a minor consideration.

 

And of course if that were the case I could put it on the South Bend.

 

Anyway, the attached 3D PDF shows what I'm casting as 3 plates to mount the motor so it's moved to the idler pulley position and theoretically I'll have 0 to 3000 RPM.   The front plate with the small hole for the spindle will also hold the power draw bar assembly.  The large hole at the back of the main plate is mostly just to save aluminium for casting.  But theoretically the original motor could be mounted back there on its own plate and the idler pulley mounted on a plate where the servo sits.  Can't see ever doing that.  Be easier to just re-install the cast iron assembly with the 2 HP motor.

 

John Dammeyer

 

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of Colin Fera
Sent: March-16-20 12:37 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

 

The dmm drives use 16bit serial absolute position encoders They aren’t really similar to any Chinese drives that I’ve seen.  Where the components are manufactured I don’t know.

 

I’m powering them on my cnc mill from 240v ac. I have never seen any servo drive packages able to run directly on 240v that are close to that price point. I think they also make dc powered drives but I wanted to get away from the big power supply that came with the mill When it ran steppers.  I paid around $500 per axis when I got them including cabling. The service has also been really good at one point the offered to ship me a new drive with return packaging for the old one but that problem turned out to be a bad signal ground.

 

In industry or at least in my industry (which isn’t cnc machining) A servo

Is any motor that closes the loop on position or speed and A Brushless dc servo is a servo that has a trapezoidal back emf where as an ac  servo is any servo with a sinusoidal back

Emf. A Dc servos has a brushed dc motor. The point is that it has nothing to do with the drives input power. All of these drives are rectifying the input ac to dc and in fact will probably run equally well on high voltage dc.

 



On Mar 16, 2020, at 10:23, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:



There are two types of systems that both use the word servo.  Both are accurate but dramatically different.  

 

In the model airplane remote control world we have servos.  These are small DC motors with gearing and a potentiometer on the output shaft feeding back position between usually 0 and 300 degrees of motion.

 

In the CNC motion control world we also have servos.  There are motors, as explained below by jahick4 that have some sort of feedback directly on the motor shaft.  In the past resolvers, more often now encoders.  

 

DC Servos like the ones I bought from automation technologies are brushed DC motors that are run with a DC voltage and a driver that changes the direction of current in the winding to make the motor change direction.  Max voltage results in max speed.  The controller varies this voltage through electrical chopping along with encoder feedback set a different speed and precise distances via a PID tuned algorithm.

 

Brushless DC motors change current through the windings and generally have 3 sensors set 120 degrees apart so that the controller knows which winding to energize.  In the brushed ones of course the commutator takes care of that.

 

AC Servo motors are like 3 phase motors with three windings and generally also some sort of sensing feedback labeled U,V and W.  Also to help decide where the motor shaft is.  And like the DC servos have an encoder.

 

I don't know if there is an inherent advantage over AC or DC brushless motors.  The AC ones, like even the VFDs first convert the line AC into DC with a bridge and filter to produce about 380 VDC and then after that the driver stage take over using again a chopping technique to create 3 phases of AC separated by 120 degrees.   

 

The 3 phase AC motors aren't really designed to be held in a locked rotor position and then moved 25 encoder pulses and then locked again.  The AC servo and DC brushless are.  But for lathe spindles with a VFD they work great.

 

Where you do see DC Brushless is in things like fans where 3 sensors help commutate the winding current and PWM is applied to the windings to vary the fan speed.

 

That's about all I know about it.  There is a project from Germany called STMBL.  I have several of those.  I bought one to run the AC Servo Harmonic Drive 4th axis.  It can run a DC bushed servo but I was never able to tune it well enough for that which is why I went to the Brushless Bergerda stuff.

 

John Dammeyer

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of jahick4@...
Sent: March-16-20 8:25 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

 

8:58am   

 

Sorry to sound ignorant, but what is the difference between a servo and a regular motor?

A DC motor is generally just a simple machine which uses electromagnetic energy to spin the shaft. We can control things like speed with pulse width modulation or reduction of power applied, but there’s really only two wires, power and ground.

A servo motor is different in that you can add an encoder into the mix, so there will be a power, ground and data wire. The encoder allows for really precise movements and applications of power (helpful in starting and stopping amongst other things). They can run at very high RPMs and can deliver a lot of torque. As I understand it, some can even safely produce double their torque rating in short bursts.


I don’t know if servo motors were always so capable - I seem to recall that once upon a time they were limited to 180 degrees of movement. Obviously, that’s not the case now


Re: 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

John Dammeyer
 

Hi Colin,

I don't believe the absolute encoder makes any difference as the software inside the drive will translate that into tracking step pulses if that method is used for control.

 

The cost for the Bergerda 0.4kW motor/drive for the X axis was $280 w/o shipping which compares favourably with the DMM kit for CNC conversion except theirs needs a 48V supply and mine runs directly off 220VAC.

 

I went with the servo for the Mill Spindle because looking around showed that a new 3 phase plus higher end VFD were more than what the AC Servo 1.8kW spindle motor/drive cost me.

 

I must admit I'm second guessing myself whether I should have bought a 1.8kW 130mm frame size motor or the 110mm frame size.  The 110mm sure is small which you can see in that PWMspindle-2,jpg I posted in an earlier message.  If the DB-25 connectors don't give a sense of scale the motor pulley I cast and turned is 3.25" diameter.

 

The 130mm was bigger, had a larger shaft plus the Bergerda was rated at 2500 RPM so I'd have to slightly step up the speed.

 

Contrast that with the existing 2HP single phase 220 VAC motor on the mill that is 8" diameter on a 10" mounting plate and has that characteristic AC hum when it's turning.  The AC servo is virtually noise free I have to look over to the spot where it's sitting to verify it's turning when LinuxCNC says run at 300 RPM.

 

I suspect, for how I use the mill, or at least intend on using the mill, that the 110mm frame size motor will be perfect.  If not, I can replace the motor with a larger servo/pulley without changing anything else.  And if that were the case I'd probably have a project or job where the cost of a bigger motor was a minor consideration.

 

And of course if that were the case I could put it on the South Bend.

 

Anyway, the attached 3D PDF shows what I'm casting as 3 plates to mount the motor so it's moved to the idler pulley position and theoretically I'll have 0 to 3000 RPM.   The front plate with the small hole for the spindle will also hold the power draw bar assembly.  The large hole at the back of the main plate is mostly just to save aluminium for casting.  But theoretically the original motor could be mounted back there on its own plate and the idler pulley mounted on a plate where the servo sits.  Can't see ever doing that.  Be easier to just re-install the cast iron assembly with the 2 HP motor.

 

John Dammeyer

 

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of Colin Fera
Sent: March-16-20 12:37 PM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

 

The dmm drives use 16bit serial absolute position encoders They aren’t really similar to any Chinese drives that I’ve seen.  Where the components are manufactured I don’t know.

 

I’m powering them on my cnc mill from 240v ac. I have never seen any servo drive packages able to run directly on 240v that are close to that price point. I think they also make dc powered drives but I wanted to get away from the big power supply that came with the mill When it ran steppers.  I paid around $500 per axis when I got them including cabling. The service has also been really good at one point the offered to ship me a new drive with return packaging for the old one but that problem turned out to be a bad signal ground.

 

In industry or at least in my industry (which isn’t cnc machining) A servo

Is any motor that closes the loop on position or speed and A Brushless dc servo is a servo that has a trapezoidal back emf where as an ac  servo is any servo with a sinusoidal back

Emf. A Dc servos has a brushed dc motor. The point is that it has nothing to do with the drives input power. All of these drives are rectifying the input ac to dc and in fact will probably run equally well on high voltage dc.

 



On Mar 16, 2020, at 10:23, John Dammeyer <johnd@...> wrote:



There are two types of systems that both use the word servo.  Both are accurate but dramatically different.  

 

In the model airplane remote control world we have servos.  These are small DC motors with gearing and a potentiometer on the output shaft feeding back position between usually 0 and 300 degrees of motion.

 

In the CNC motion control world we also have servos.  There are motors, as explained below by jahick4 that have some sort of feedback directly on the motor shaft.  In the past resolvers, more often now encoders.  

 

DC Servos like the ones I bought from automation technologies are brushed DC motors that are run with a DC voltage and a driver that changes the direction of current in the winding to make the motor change direction.  Max voltage results in max speed.  The controller varies this voltage through electrical chopping along with encoder feedback set a different speed and precise distances via a PID tuned algorithm.

 

Brushless DC motors change current through the windings and generally have 3 sensors set 120 degrees apart so that the controller knows which winding to energize.  In the brushed ones of course the commutator takes care of that.

 

AC Servo motors are like 3 phase motors with three windings and generally also some sort of sensing feedback labeled U,V and W.  Also to help decide where the motor shaft is.  And like the DC servos have an encoder.

 

I don't know if there is an inherent advantage over AC or DC brushless motors.  The AC ones, like even the VFDs first convert the line AC into DC with a bridge and filter to produce about 380 VDC and then after that the driver stage take over using again a chopping technique to create 3 phases of AC separated by 120 degrees.   

 

The 3 phase AC motors aren't really designed to be held in a locked rotor position and then moved 25 encoder pulses and then locked again.  The AC servo and DC brushless are.  But for lathe spindles with a VFD they work great.

 

Where you do see DC Brushless is in things like fans where 3 sensors help commutate the winding current and PWM is applied to the windings to vary the fan speed.

 

That's about all I know about it.  There is a project from Germany called STMBL.  I have several of those.  I bought one to run the AC Servo Harmonic Drive 4th axis.  It can run a DC bushed servo but I was never able to tune it well enough for that which is why I went to the Brushless Bergerda stuff.

 

John Dammeyer

 

 

From: SouthBendLathe@groups.io [mailto:SouthBendLathe@groups.io] On Behalf Of jahick4@...
Sent: March-16-20 8:25 AM
To: SouthBendLathe@groups.io
Subject: Re: [SouthBendLathe] 10L motor replacement recommendations #10l

 

8:58am   

 

Sorry to sound ignorant, but what is the difference between a servo and a regular motor?

A DC motor is generally just a simple machine which uses electromagnetic energy to spin the shaft. We can control things like speed with pulse width modulation or reduction of power applied, but there’s really only two wires, power and ground.

A servo motor is different in that you can add an encoder into the mix, so there will be a power, ground and data wire. The encoder allows for really precise movements and applications of power (helpful in starting and stopping amongst other things). They can run at very high RPMs and can deliver a lot of torque. As I understand it, some can even safely produce double their torque rating in short bursts.


I don’t know if servo motors were always so capable - I seem to recall that once upon a time they were limited to 180 degrees of movement. Obviously, that’s not the case now

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