Topics

Mast step rot


Tom
 

Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?

Thanks


--
Thomas Wanderer
Sabre 38 Celebration


Jim Starkey
 

I had it done at Crockers in Manchester more than 15 years ago. The rot had spread to the bulkhead so the repair was extensive (you'll never know until it gets opened up).  They did an excellent job for about $13K.  Unfortunately, I can't recommend them now.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?

Thanks

--
Jim Starkey


Steve Ellis
 

I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?

Thanks


Bennett Kaufman
 

Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol


Ryan Stemmle
 

I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.



Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol


William Petersen
 

One way to know if you have an issue is if the rigging has had to be continually tightened.  In my case the door to the V-berth started getting tight to opening when it never did before.  Your pictures don’t give the impression of dry rot.  As stated above,  the consequences of it do become apparent.  Actual collapse of the cabin top is what slowly happens.  If you don’t notice the problem...you may not in fact have it.  

Good luck,  Bill Petersen 
Sabre 28 # 440


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>


Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
William Petersen


Matt Quinn, SV Glendi, 1989 Sabre 36, East Falmouth, MA
 

Bill, on 34s and 36s the mast is keel stepped, so the issue doesn’t manifest on the cabin top. Rather, it manifests in the sole and bulkheads around the step inside the cabin. The only way to test these models is to drill tear bores into the step and stringers. It’s pretty apparent when you do this if the wood is wet.

Tom, I discovered I have the issue on my 36 this Fall and am doing the repair myself. I’ve talked to a few other members who also did the repair if you’d like to connect to discuss. I have a pretty decent idea of what’s involved.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 9:26 PM William Petersen <williampetersenmd@...> wrote:
One way to know if you have an issue is if the rigging has had to be continually tightened.  In my case the door to the V-berth started getting tight to opening when it never did before.  Your pictures don’t give the impression of dry rot.  As stated above,  the consequences of it do become apparent.  Actual collapse of the cabin top is what slowly happens.  If you don’t notice the problem...you may not in fact have it.  

Good luck,  Bill Petersen 
Sabre 28 # 440


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>


Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
William Petersen


William Petersen
 

Thanks for that correction.  No doubt a difference!
Bill


On Nov 6, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Matt Quinn, SV Glendi, 1989 Sabre 36, East Falmouth, MA <quinn.matt@...> wrote:


Bill, on 34s and 36s the mast is keel stepped, so the issue doesn’t manifest on the cabin top. Rather, it manifests in the sole and bulkheads around the step inside the cabin. The only way to test these models is to drill tear bores into the step and stringers. It’s pretty apparent when you do this if the wood is wet.

Tom, I discovered I have the issue on my 36 this Fall and am doing the repair myself. I’ve talked to a few other members who also did the repair if you’d like to connect to discuss. I have a pretty decent idea of what’s involved.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 9:26 PM William Petersen <williampetersenmd@...> wrote:
One way to know if you have an issue is if the rigging has had to be continually tightened.  In my case the door to the V-berth started getting tight to opening when it never did before.  Your pictures don’t give the impression of dry rot.  As stated above,  the consequences of it do become apparent.  Actual collapse of the cabin top is what slowly happens.  If you don’t notice the problem...you may not in fact have it.  

Good luck,  Bill Petersen 
Sabre 28 # 440


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>


Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
William Petersen


--
William Petersen


Bennett Kaufman
 


Here's a picture of catastrophic mast step failure on CARACOL, Summer 2017. The failure occurred without warning, while sailing  close-hauled on starboard tack in about 10-12 kts of wind. I was sailing with 3 other people, we had just finished lunch in the cockpit, when there was a loud "bang" from below. Nothing was seen with a quick look below (the mast stayed up), so I pulled up the forward floorboard and saw the damage.


Inline image

I had neither the time, tools, nor expertise to attempt repair on my own...as I mentioned before, repair estimate from my "boat guy" in Annapolis was $20K (which also included fixing hidden water damage to base of port bulkhead).

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL


On Friday, November 6, 2020, 08:27:34 PM EST, Ryan Stemmle <ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.



Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
S36Caracol


Ryan Stemmle
 

Was CARACOL a center board or fin keel? I noticed the center board models don’t have much of a bilge compared to fin keels and I wonder how that can contribute. I also wonder how we are classifying a “wet” drilled out sample. All wood would have some level of moisture in it and my samples did not produce saw dust, but they also didn’t leave the drill bit with any residual moisture.

I would love to see pics as these DIY repairs are being conducted.

Ryan

On Nov 6, 2020, at 9:48 PM, Matt Quinn, SV Glendi, 1989 Sabre 36, East Falmouth, MA <quinn.matt@...> wrote:


Bill, on 34s and 36s the mast is keel stepped, so the issue doesn’t manifest on the cabin top. Rather, it manifests in the sole and bulkheads around the step inside the cabin. The only way to test these models is to drill tear bores into the step and stringers. It’s pretty apparent when you do this if the wood is wet.

Tom, I discovered I have the issue on my 36 this Fall and am doing the repair myself. I’ve talked to a few other members who also did the repair if you’d like to connect to discuss. I have a pretty decent idea of what’s involved.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 9:26 PM William Petersen <williampetersenmd@...> wrote:
One way to know if you have an issue is if the rigging has had to be continually tightened.  In my case the door to the V-berth started getting tight to opening when it never did before.  Your pictures don’t give the impression of dry rot.  As stated above,  the consequences of it do become apparent.  Actual collapse of the cabin top is what slowly happens.  If you don’t notice the problem...you may not in fact have it.  

Good luck,  Bill Petersen 
Sabre 28 # 440


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>


Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
William Petersen


Matt Quinn, SV Glendi, 1989 Sabre 36, East Falmouth, MA
 

Here you go, Ryan:



I will post a full album of my repair once I get further into it. At the moment I am still removing the old step so the photos would not be terribly instructive.

Regarding the bores, some of mine resulted in actual water coming up out of the hole around the bit as I was drilling. Some of them produced sawdust that was only moist enough to form, almost like putty. My boat is a C/B model and the first evidence of the issue was a cracked mast step plate in the spring. FWIW we looked for the issue at my survey less than two years ago and there was no evidence of the problem.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 10:42 PM Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:
Was CARACOL a center board or fin keel? I noticed the center board models don’t have much of a bilge compared to fin keels and I wonder how that can contribute. I also wonder how we are classifying a “wet” drilled out sample. All wood would have some level of moisture in it and my samples did not produce saw dust, but they also didn’t leave the drill bit with any residual moisture.

I would love to see pics as these DIY repairs are being conducted.

Ryan

On Nov 6, 2020, at 9:48 PM, Matt Quinn, SV Glendi, 1989 Sabre 36, East Falmouth, MA <quinn.matt@...> wrote:


Bill, on 34s and 36s the mast is keel stepped, so the issue doesn’t manifest on the cabin top. Rather, it manifests in the sole and bulkheads around the step inside the cabin. The only way to test these models is to drill tear bores into the step and stringers. It’s pretty apparent when you do this if the wood is wet.

Tom, I discovered I have the issue on my 36 this Fall and am doing the repair myself. I’ve talked to a few other members who also did the repair if you’d like to connect to discuss. I have a pretty decent idea of what’s involved.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 9:26 PM William Petersen <williampetersenmd@...> wrote:
One way to know if you have an issue is if the rigging has had to be continually tightened.  In my case the door to the V-berth started getting tight to opening when it never did before.  Your pictures don’t give the impression of dry rot.  As stated above,  the consequences of it do become apparent.  Actual collapse of the cabin top is what slowly happens.  If you don’t notice the problem...you may not in fact have it.  

Good luck,  Bill Petersen 
Sabre 28 # 440


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>


Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
William Petersen


Philip Horn
 
Edited

I had the mast step/bulkhead/cabin sole rot on my 34. I'm in the final stages
of repair, finishing the sub floor replacement this winter. It's a huge job, taken me  
years of "spare" time. If you have the time & skills though, a worthwhile endeavor.
Pictures are in the photo section:
S34 # 67 Step replacement & bhead repair: https://groups.io/g/SabreSailboat/album?id=111933
S34 # 67 Replacement of salon floors: https://groups.io/g/SabreSailboat/album?id=111932
S34 # 67 Installation of new cabin sole: https://groups.io/g/SabreSailboat/album?id=242550
Phil Horn


Bennett Kaufman
 

Ryan,

CARACOL was a keel/cb model. I have never seen the bilges of a keel version, so I can't give you any comparison of the bilge areas. Harry Keith has a picture album somewhere (Harry, where are you?) documenting rebuilding the mast step and cabin sole of his S34 Mk 1. I think there are others in the Archives as well.

benkaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 10:44:24 PM EST, Ryan Stemmle <ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


Was CARACOL a center board or fin keel? I noticed the center board models don’t have much of a bilge compared to fin keels and I wonder how that can contribute. I also wonder how we are classifying a “wet” drilled out sample. All wood would have some level of moisture in it and my samples did not produce saw dust, but they also didn’t leave the drill bit with any residual moisture.

I would love to see pics as these DIY repairs are being conducted.

Ryan



--
S36Caracol


Jim Starkey
 

I'm quite sure there is no difference in the hulls of centerboard vs. full keel Sabres.  In theory, you could unbolt one and bolt a different one on, though going from keel to centerboard would be a trick.

On 11/6/2020 10:42 PM, Ryan Stemmle wrote:
Was CARACOL a center board or fin keel? I noticed the center board models don’t have much of a bilge compared to fin keels and I wonder how that can contribute. I also wonder how we are classifying a “wet” drilled out sample. All wood would have some level of moisture in it and my samples did not produce saw dust, but they also didn’t leave the drill bit with any residual moisture.

I would love to see pics as these DIY repairs are being conducted.

Ryan

On Nov 6, 2020, at 9:48 PM, Matt Quinn, SV Glendi, 1989 Sabre 36, East Falmouth, MA <quinn.matt@...> wrote:


Bill, on 34s and 36s the mast is keel stepped, so the issue doesn’t manifest on the cabin top. Rather, it manifests in the sole and bulkheads around the step inside the cabin. The only way to test these models is to drill tear bores into the step and stringers. It’s pretty apparent when you do this if the wood is wet.

Tom, I discovered I have the issue on my 36 this Fall and am doing the repair myself. I’ve talked to a few other members who also did the repair if you’d like to connect to discuss. I have a pretty decent idea of what’s involved.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 9:26 PM William Petersen <williampetersenmd@...> wrote:
One way to know if you have an issue is if the rigging has had to be continually tightened.  In my case the door to the V-berth started getting tight to opening when it never did before.  Your pictures don’t give the impression of dry rot.  As stated above,  the consequences of it do become apparent.  Actual collapse of the cabin top is what slowly happens.  If you don’t notice the problem...you may not in fact have it.  

Good luck,  Bill Petersen 
Sabre 28 # 440


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>


Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
William Petersen
-- 
Jim Starkey


Tony Billera
 

There may be more interior ballast in the CB 


Please consider the environment before printing this email. Thank you.


On Nov 7, 2020, at 7:21 AM, Jim Starkey <Jim@...> wrote:



I'm quite sure there is no difference in the hulls of centerboard vs. full keel Sabres.  In theory, you could unbolt one and bolt a different one on, though going from keel to centerboard would be a trick.

On 11/6/2020 10:42 PM, Ryan Stemmle wrote:
Was CARACOL a center board or fin keel? I noticed the center board models don’t have much of a bilge compared to fin keels and I wonder how that can contribute. I also wonder how we are classifying a “wet” drilled out sample. All wood would have some level of moisture in it and my samples did not produce saw dust, but they also didn’t leave the drill bit with any residual moisture.

I would love to see pics as these DIY repairs are being conducted.

Ryan

On Nov 6, 2020, at 9:48 PM, Matt Quinn, SV Glendi, 1989 Sabre 36, East Falmouth, MA <quinn.matt@...> wrote:


Bill, on 34s and 36s the mast is keel stepped, so the issue doesn’t manifest on the cabin top. Rather, it manifests in the sole and bulkheads around the step inside the cabin. The only way to test these models is to drill tear bores into the step and stringers. It’s pretty apparent when you do this if the wood is wet.

Tom, I discovered I have the issue on my 36 this Fall and am doing the repair myself. I’ve talked to a few other members who also did the repair if you’d like to connect to discuss. I have a pretty decent idea of what’s involved.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 9:26 PM William Petersen <williampetersenmd@...> wrote:
One way to know if you have an issue is if the rigging has had to be continually tightened.  In my case the door to the V-berth started getting tight to opening when it never did before.  Your pictures don’t give the impression of dry rot.  As stated above,  the consequences of it do become apparent.  Actual collapse of the cabin top is what slowly happens.  If you don’t notice the problem...you may not in fact have it.  

Good luck,  Bill Petersen 
Sabre 28 # 440


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>


Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
William Petersen
-- 
Jim Starkey


Jeff Bartlett
 

I’m pretty sure there is a significant difference having recently looked at several S34 Mk IIs with a mix of centerboard, deep fin, and “wing” keel.

My observation is that the centerboard keel is much wider and longer where it meets the hull, and that the bilge area and volume is much reduced due to the centerboard.

Jeff 

On Nov 7, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Jim Starkey <Jim@...> wrote:

I'm quite sure there is no difference in the hulls of centerboard vs. full keel Sabres.  In theory, you could unbolt one and bolt a different one on, though going from keel to centerboard would be a trick.

On 11/6/2020 10:42 PM, Ryan Stemmle wrote:
Was CARACOL a center board or fin keel? I noticed the center board models don’t have much of a bilge compared to fin keels and I wonder how that can contribute. I also wonder how we are classifying a “wet” drilled out sample. All wood would have some level of moisture in it and my samples did not produce saw dust, but they also didn’t leave the drill bit with any residual moisture.

I would love to see pics as these DIY repairs are being conducted.

Ryan

On Nov 6, 2020, at 9:48 PM, Matt Quinn, SV Glendi, 1989 Sabre 36, East Falmouth, MA <quinn.matt@...> wrote:


Bill, on 34s and 36s the mast is keel stepped, so the issue doesn’t manifest on the cabin top. Rather, it manifests in the sole and bulkheads around the step inside the cabin. The only way to test these models is to drill tear bores into the step and stringers. It’s pretty apparent when you do this if the wood is wet.

Tom, I discovered I have the issue on my 36 this Fall and am doing the repair myself. I’ve talked to a few other members who also did the repair if you’d like to connect to discuss. I have a pretty decent idea of what’s involved.

On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 9:26 PM William Petersen <williampetersenmd@...> wrote:
One way to know if you have an issue is if the rigging has had to be continually tightened.  In my case the door to the V-berth started getting tight to opening when it never did before.  Your pictures don’t give the impression of dry rot.  As stated above,  the consequences of it do become apparent.  Actual collapse of the cabin top is what slowly happens.  If you don’t notice the problem...you may not in fact have it.  

Good luck,  Bill Petersen 
Sabre 28 # 440


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:27 PM, Ryan Stemmle <Ryan.stemmle@...> wrote:


I have a 1985 Sabre 36. Therefore I have had water destroy many things around the mast (bulkhead, sole, settee box). 

The state of the mast steps in these situations seems a bit spooky. 

When I had everything apart- I tapped, hammered, metered, and inspected the hell out of the step. I think it would take a damn persuasive argument and some photo evidence to convince me that the step is going to spontaneously collapse or implode. 

After weeks of staring at it, I decided that I would probably do more harm than good in attempting to reconstruct it. Since, I have sailed 5,000 nm offshore, and a lot of those miles were in conditions that most weekend sailors never see. I continue to inspect and check it. Just seems as solid as ever. Prior to putting the mast back up, I did fill the old drain hole and route a new one straight to the bilge.

<image0.jpeg>
<image1.jpeg>


Ryan on Zinzi


On Nov 6, 2020, at 7:57 PM, Bennett Kaufman <kaufmanb@...> wrote:


Mast step disease was what "killed" CARACOL, my 1986 S36. When the insurance adjuster looked over the damage (not covered by insurance), he also found water damage to the port bulkhead. The boat was berthed on the Chesapeake, near Annapolis, MD. The local estimate to repair the damage (mast step, bulkhead, cabin sole, etc.) was in the neighborhood of $20K (in 2017). I could not at that time afford to cover the cost, and so disposed of the boat.

BTW, I was aware of the problem being caused by the drain hole in the mast step allowing water to migrate into the wooden base structure, but I had been careful to keep the drain clear, and checked to make sure water was draining out of the mast base after rains, etc. Obviously, there was a hole or defect in the drain passage that allowed water to get into the step.

ben kaufman, ex-CARACOL

On Friday, November 6, 2020, 04:42:23 PM EST, Steve Ellis <stellis75@...> wrote:


I had it done at Manchester Marine about 5 years ago. Cost was about
$15k which included winter storage fee.

On 11/6/2020 2:56 PM, Tom wrote:
> Has anyone had this repair done in the Beverly area. Who and how much?
>
> Thanks
>
>







--
S36Caracol

--
William Petersen
-- 
Jim Starkey


Roger Kuebel 362#150
 

Tom,
If it's fiberglass work I would go to Dennis Doucette.
Good luck,
Roger