Topics

Cabin Sole Replacement S 34-II


Randal Wright
 

I apologize for resurrecting the all too familiar topic but I wanted to see if anyone has paid a yard to replace their cabin sole and generally what would be a reasonable cost to anticipate. The boat is located in North Texas where I have few options but there are skilled woodworkers working at the yard.

There is enough wood damage around the mast step that a fairly significant amount of the sole would need to be replaced and, as we all know, it's pretty much all or nothing as the original teak and holly plywood is no longer available to match even if a partial replacement was desired.

Basically I am trying to see if the cost estimate of $7,500 I have received is in the ballpark of reasonable.

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

Randal Wright
1987 S 34-II
La Boheme


Philip Horn
 

Randal,
I have a 34-I and am currently replacing the sole. I've already replaced the floors,
mast step & a piece of the bulkhead. This is a huge job, been working on it for years
in my "spare" time. $7500 seems very reasonable for the sole. Here in the Northeast
I've seen estimates of $10-15k.
Phil Horn


Randal Wright
 

Thanks very much Phil. 


On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 7:10 AM, Philip Horn
<philhorn48@...> wrote:
Randal,
I have a 34-I and am currently replacing the sole. I've already replaced the floors,
mast step & a piece of the bulkhead. This is a huge job, been working on it for years
in my "spare" time. $7500 seems very reasonable for the sole. Here in the Northeast
I've seen estimates of $10-15k.
Phil Horn


benjamin.litvinas@...
 

Seems very reasonable. Previous owner of our 34-2 paid $3500 for NuTeak 


On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 8:34 AM Randal Wright <randalwright@...> wrote:
Thanks very much Phil. 


On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 7:10 AM, Philip Horn
Randal,
I have a 34-I and am currently replacing the sole. I've already replaced the floors,
mast step & a piece of the bulkhead. This is a huge job, been working on it for years
in my "spare" time. $7500 seems very reasonable for the sole. Here in the Northeast
I've seen estimates of $10-15k.
Phil Horn


Peter Tollini
 

Make sure the mast step is solid.


On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 3:48 AM Randal Wright <randalwright@...> wrote:
I apologize for resurrecting the all too familiar topic but I wanted to see if anyone has paid a yard to replace their cabin sole and generally what would be a reasonable cost to anticipate. The boat is located in North Texas where I have few options but there are skilled woodworkers working at the yard.

There is enough wood damage around the mast step that a fairly significant amount of the sole would need to be replaced and, as we all know, it's pretty much all or nothing as the original teak and holly plywood is no longer available to match even if a partial replacement was desired.

Basically I am trying to see if the cost estimate of $7,500 I have received is in the ballpark of reasonable.

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

Randal Wright
1987 S 34-II
La Boheme


Jim Starkey
 

If you are going to rip out the cabin sole anyway, I suggest you consider replacing the wooden mast step "box" with a new one made out of 1" pre-fab fiberglass.  The destruction of the wooden box can start with an unnoticed crack in the limber hole sealant that rots the box bottom to top not showing any problem until structural collapse starts.  It would be a pity to have to replace the cabin sole twice.

That said, there is a strong argument that a mismatched cabin sole on boats of that era adds rather than detracts from the value for savvy buyers.

On 9/23/2020 11:10 AM, Peter Tollini wrote:
Make sure the mast step is solid.

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 3:48 AM Randal Wright <randalwright@...> wrote:
I apologize for resurrecting the all too familiar topic but I wanted to see if anyone has paid a yard to replace their cabin sole and generally what would be a reasonable cost to anticipate. The boat is located in North Texas where I have few options but there are skilled woodworkers working at the yard.

There is enough wood damage around the mast step that a fairly significant amount of the sole would need to be replaced and, as we all know, it's pretty much all or nothing as the original teak and holly plywood is no longer available to match even if a partial replacement was desired.

Basically I am trying to see if the cost estimate of $7,500 I have received is in the ballpark of reasonable.

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

Randal Wright
1987 S 34-II
La Boheme
-- 
Jim Starkey


Harry Keith
 

I did the job myself.  Took a sledge hammer to the interior in the fall of 2011, set sail June of 2014.  Ouch.  Lots of pics at photobucket.com/cabinsole, assuming they haven't totally broken the web site.

Some comments on previous posts.

Phil's saying he's seen prices in the $10-15K range is what I've heard (but we tend to listen to the same grapevine, so we hear the same gossip.....).

NuTeak was mentioned.  The interior version is individual strips of teak and "holly" and is a commerical level product made by Mannington.  It is brutal to install, and about $1K in materials for a 34.  It is truly amazing stuff -- looks real, completely impervious to water, non-skid, and bullet proof (I've dropped heavy/hard things on it, with no visible damage).  Our current boat (43') has a classic plywood teak and holly sole with 1,000 dings, and I so wish I could talk into myself into putting in NuTeak.  It will happen some day.

Jim mentioned using fiberglass for the step.  Certainly a credible material, although pricey (but when you are paying folks, material costs fade fast).  The mast step is more than a large block -- it is a block that spans between and is incorporated into the ribs forward and aft of it.  The original step was made of "marine" plywood -- a weak structural material with miserable performance in or around water.  It has no place in the bilge.  I made all my ribs of "attic stock" pressure treated pine 2x4's.  Massively stronger in this application.  By scrounging old material from my garage and attic (and friends' too), it was tinder dry.  And hopefully, I even found the old copper arsenic stock, making it even more rot-resistant than today's stuff.  But even today's stuff, if bought today and stored indoors for a year, will be stronger than the original and will outlast the boat even if it gets wet.

If you have any specific questions, ask away.  As much as I've tried to forget those two years of Hell, I can't help but share it.

Harry
formerly Rantum Scoot, '79 34-I #063


On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 11:48 AM Jim Starkey <Jim@...> wrote:

If you are going to rip out the cabin sole anyway, I suggest you consider replacing the wooden mast step "box" with a new one made out of 1" pre-fab fiberglass.  The destruction of the wooden box can start with an unnoticed crack in the limber hole sealant that rots the box bottom to top not showing any problem until structural collapse starts.  It would be a pity to have to replace the cabin sole twice.

That said, there is a strong argument that a mismatched cabin sole on boats of that era adds rather than detracts from the value for savvy buyers.

On 9/23/2020 11:10 AM, Peter Tollini wrote:
Make sure the mast step is solid.

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 3:48 AM Randal Wright <randalwright@...> wrote:
I apologize for resurrecting the all too familiar topic but I wanted to see if anyone has paid a yard to replace their cabin sole and generally what would be a reasonable cost to anticipate. The boat is located in North Texas where I have few options but there are skilled woodworkers working at the yard.

There is enough wood damage around the mast step that a fairly significant amount of the sole would need to be replaced and, as we all know, it's pretty much all or nothing as the original teak and holly plywood is no longer available to match even if a partial replacement was desired.

Basically I am trying to see if the cost estimate of $7,500 I have received is in the ballpark of reasonable.

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

Randal Wright
1987 S 34-II
La Boheme
-- 
Jim Starkey


Randal Wright
 

Thanks very much for the suggestions. I will pay particularly close attention to those.

I am fortunate that I keep my boat in the location where Valiant Yachts have been built until they discontinued production a few years ago. The expertise is still available, though. My first thought is that the mast step is in good shape but is basically flush with the cabin sole with an inadequate path for water to find it's way into the bilge. We are going to have to improve that.

I had considered the nu teak product but found it impossible to obtain a sample of. Truthfully I love the beauty of teak and holly but a transatlantic crossing on a skating rink Juneau has me reconsidering the importance of aesthetics. My current estimate includes two coats of a minwax finish. 

Thanks again for the suggestions. 

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 11:20 AM, Harry Keith
<sailor11767@...> wrote:
I did the job myself.  Took a sledge hammer to the interior in the fall of 2011, set sail June of 2014.  Ouch.  Lots of pics at photobucket.com/cabinsole, assuming they haven't totally broken the web site.

Some comments on previous posts.

Phil's saying he's seen prices in the $10-15K range is what I've heard (but we tend to listen to the same grapevine, so we hear the same gossip.....).

NuTeak was mentioned.  The interior version is individual strips of teak and "holly" and is a commerical level product made by Mannington.  It is brutal to install, and about $1K in materials for a 34.  It is truly amazing stuff -- looks real, completely impervious to water, non-skid, and bullet proof (I've dropped heavy/hard things on it, with no visible damage).  Our current boat (43') has a classic plywood teak and holly sole with 1,000 dings, and I so wish I could talk into myself into putting in NuTeak.  It will happen some day.

Jim mentioned using fiberglass for the step.  Certainly a credible material, although pricey (but when you are paying folks, material costs fade fast).  The mast step is more than a large block -- it is a block that spans between and is incorporated into the ribs forward and aft of it.  The original step was made of "marine" plywood -- a weak structural material with miserable performance in or around water.  It has no place in the bilge.  I made all my ribs of "attic stock" pressure treated pine 2x4's.  Massively stronger in this application.  By scrounging old material from my garage and attic (and friends' too), it was tinder dry.  And hopefully, I even found the old copper arsenic stock, making it even more rot-resistant than today's stuff.  But even today's stuff, if bought today and stored indoors for a year, will be stronger than the original and will outlast the boat even if it gets wet.

If you have any specific questions, ask away.  As much as I've tried to forget those two years of Hell, I can't help but share it.

Harry
formerly Rantum Scoot, '79 34-I #063

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 11:48 AM Jim Starkey <Jim@...> wrote:

If you are going to rip out the cabin sole anyway, I suggest you consider replacing the wooden mast step "box" with a new one made out of 1" pre-fab fiberglass.  The destruction of the wooden box can start with an unnoticed crack in the limber hole sealant that rots the box bottom to top not showing any problem until structural collapse starts.  It would be a pity to have to replace the cabin sole twice.

That said, there is a strong argument that a mismatched cabin sole on boats of that era adds rather than detracts from the value for savvy buyers.

On 9/23/2020 11:10 AM, Peter Tollini wrote:
Make sure the mast step is solid.

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 3:48 AM Randal Wright <randalwright@...> wrote:
I apologize for resurrecting the all too familiar topic but I wanted to see if anyone has paid a yard to replace their cabin sole and generally what would be a reasonable cost to anticipate. The boat is located in North Texas where I have few options but there are skilled woodworkers working at the yard.

There is enough wood damage around the mast step that a fairly significant amount of the sole would need to be replaced and, as we all know, it's pretty much all or nothing as the original teak and holly plywood is no longer available to match even if a partial replacement was desired.

Basically I am trying to see if the cost estimate of $7,500 I have received is in the ballpark of reasonable.

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

Randal Wright
1987 S 34-II
La Boheme
-- 
Jim Starkey


wtsnt@...
 

A friend with a "sister" 34 MkII to ours replaced the V berth and main cabin of his cabin sole.

He used a synthetic teak and holly material from this company, http://www.lonsealspecialty.com/gallery.cfm.

He also had the mast step refurbished and a drain added, see attached picture.

There was documentation posted on this forum a while ago from Glen at Sabre detailing the architecture of the cabin sole, PDF attached.

Last picture is the replaced V berth and main cabin sole using the synthetic material.

I hope this helps, the synthetic really looks good and is a virtual match for the original, just slightly later shade.  But, it's virtually maintenance free!

Terry Watson
Sabre 34 MkII Kismet

 


Charlie McMillan
 

Harry,

Having gone through your photos is Deja Vu for the work I did on Skye. I might suggest that pressure treated wood while able to hold up to moisture for quite a while, moves and twists wildly when subjected to changes in moisture. A better, snd still cheap solution is to form the beams of rigid foam and fiberglass/epoxy over them to build up a strong and lighter weight solution. I saw this being done to a stringer on an S38 at the aft end of the keel after it had “discovered" a rock downeast and pushed the keel up about 4” (yikes). This repair was done at Dutch Wharf, great craftsmen.

On Skye I decided my many hours were worth the cost of better materials and used layers of 1” G10 laminated together and glassed over for the mast step. It will survive a nuclear attack. The "mysterious missing limber hole”, source of many of the Sabre Rot issues was re-engineered to be a 2” hole that actually allows water to pass through.

Also used 3/8” custom milled Teak and holly, finish is Pure Tung Oil, looks pretty and is not slippery at all. With solid 3/8” wood, fairing out a ding is pretty easy, no 1/16” veneer to worry about.

Charlie McMillan

McMillan Group Inc
25 Otter Trail
Westport, Ct  06880
203-227-8696 office
203-291-9764 mobile 
www.mcmillangroup.com

On Sep 23, 2020, at 12:20 PM, Harry Keith <sailor11767@...> wrote:

I did the job myself.  Took a sledge hammer to the interior in the fall of 2011, set sail June of 2014.  Ouch.  Lots of pics at photobucket.com/cabinsole, assuming they haven't totally broken the web site.

Some comments on previous posts.

Phil's saying he's seen prices in the $10-15K range is what I've heard (but we tend to listen to the same grapevine, so we hear the same gossip.....).

NuTeak was mentioned.  The interior version is individual strips of teak and "holly" and is a commerical level product made by Mannington.  It is brutal to install, and about $1K in materials for a 34.  It is truly amazing stuff -- looks real, completely impervious to water, non-skid, and bullet proof (I've dropped heavy/hard things on it, with no visible damage).  Our current boat (43') has a classic plywood teak and holly sole with 1,000 dings, and I so wish I could talk into myself into putting in NuTeak.  It will happen some day.

Jim mentioned using fiberglass for the step.  Certainly a credible material, although pricey (but when you are paying folks, material costs fade fast).  The mast step is more than a large block -- it is a block that spans between and is incorporated into the ribs forward and aft of it.  The original step was made of "marine" plywood -- a weak structural material with miserable performance in or around water.  It has no place in the bilge.  I made all my ribs of "attic stock" pressure treated pine 2x4's.  Massively stronger in this application.  By scrounging old material from my garage and attic (and friends' too), it was tinder dry.  And hopefully, I even found the old copper arsenic stock, making it even more rot-resistant than today's stuff.  But even today's stuff, if bought today and stored indoors for a year, will be stronger than the original and will outlast the boat even if it gets wet.

If you have any specific questions, ask away.  As much as I've tried to forget those two years of Hell, I can't help but share it.

Harry
formerly Rantum Scoot, '79 34-I #063

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 11:48 AM Jim Starkey <Jim@...> wrote:

If you are going to rip out the cabin sole anyway, I suggest you consider replacing the wooden mast step "box" with a new one made out of 1" pre-fab fiberglass.  The destruction of the wooden box can start with an unnoticed crack in the limber hole sealant that rots the box bottom to top not showing any problem until structural collapse starts.  It would be a pity to have to replace the cabin sole twice.

That said, there is a strong argument that a mismatched cabin sole on boats of that era adds rather than detracts from the value for savvy buyers.

On 9/23/2020 11:10 AM, Peter Tollini wrote:
Make sure the mast step is solid.

On Wed, Sep 23, 2020 at 3:48 AM Randal Wright <randalwright@...> wrote:
I apologize for resurrecting the all too familiar topic but I wanted to see if anyone has paid a yard to replace their cabin sole and generally what would be a reasonable cost to anticipate. The boat is located in North Texas where I have few options but there are skilled woodworkers working at the yard.

There is enough wood damage around the mast step that a fairly significant amount of the sole would need to be replaced and, as we all know, it's pretty much all or nothing as the original teak and holly plywood is no longer available to match even if a partial replacement was desired.

Basically I am trying to see if the cost estimate of $7,500 I have received is in the ballpark of reasonable.

Thanks for any thoughts on the matter.

Randal Wright
1987 S 34-II
La Boheme
-- 
Jim Starkey




Philip Horn
 

I originally planned to use Lonseal as a finish for the sole.
However, a fellow Sabre owner in my yard used it & had great difficulty.
The adhesive is a proprietary epoxy that's expensive and very difficult to mix (stiff).
Also Lonseal is a sheet vinyl. So once the epoxy is mixed, you must install the entire floor, quickly, with no room for error.
To me, this is asking for trouble.
So I followed in Harry's footsteps and planned to use NuTeak (single synthetic planks).
Once the material is cut & fitted, you can install as many (or few) planks as time allows, and it's held down with construction adhesive,
inexpensive & easy to apply. But when I spoke to the suppliers last Winter, the product is no longer made. The replacement is called
NautikFlor and is PVC based. It's also 1/3 the labor to install, as the pieces are 3 planks wide.
I used white oak to fabricate the mast step & floors. It's a traditional boat building material, very strong, resistant to rot and reasonably priced.
To waterproof all exposed wood surfaces, everything was covered with fiberglass cloth & West Epoxy.
The floors & step went in about 6 years ago and are like new. I plan to finish the sub floor this Winter and install the NautikFlor by Spring.
BTW, I bought the NautikFlor from ICA Group in Florida. They were the only supplier on the East coast that responded to my inquires and were
a pleasure to work with (954) 966-5400. All my work is also documented in the photo section: S34 # 67 Step replacement & bhead repair,
S34 # 67 Replacement of salon floors, S34 # 67 Installation of new cabin sole  
Phil Horn