Date   

Re: Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

Joe Morlan
 

On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 23:30:36 -0700, "Alvaro Jaramillo"
<chucao@...> wrote:

White-throated being a forest bird, and White-crowned being a Taiga bird might be why that hybrid combo is so rare or unrecorded.
Not sure what you mean by this. Isn't Taiga is the same thing as boreal
forest?
--
Joseph Morlan, Pacifica, CA


Re: Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

Alvaro Jaramillo
 

Adam

    I hope it hangs around and molts for you. Part of the evaluation of what features to categorize as important might be age dependent. If you can age it as an adult, vs a youngster, that would be key. White-crowned is not individually variable, just age variation really (restricting to gambelli). Golden-crowned is complex with lots of individual and age related variation during the non-breeding season. White-throated is a true weirdo with age, and then a plumage dichotomy as adults. So how those genes mix and match is one thing, and the age will matter as well in how some of the features are expressed. Good fun.

   White-throated being a forest bird, and White-crowned being a Taiga bird might be why that hybrid combo is so rare or unrecorded. Golden-crowned takes shrubby habitats closer to forest, and certainly more humid/mesic than White-crowned on average. Although Goldens and White-crowns overlap widely in Alaska and BC. I cannot explain how Goldens come into contact with White-throats, but this does seem more likely than White-crowns and White-throats.

   BTW, once heard a White-crown in Alaska singing a perfect Golden-crowned song.

Birds are weird, that is why we like them.

Alvaro

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@...

www.alvarosadventures.com

 

From: SFBirds@groups.io <SFBirds@groups.io> On Behalf Of Adam Winer
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 10:37 PM
To: Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao@...>
Cc: SF Birds <sfbirds@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [SFBirds] Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

 

Alvaro,

 

Thanks for the feedback!  And, yeah, gambeli x Golden-crowned was where I started (and may be where I end).  If nothing else, a few Golden-crowned had just arrived that morning, making it pretty easy to imagine a Golden-crowned hybrid showing up with the same crowd.  It's also a better attested hybrid combo (though there aren't any eBird reports in SF of that combo either). And birdsoftheworld's species accounts make it sound like there's no firm evidence of any White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow hybrid ever having occurred!

 

What I'll say is that this bird phenotypically matches the things that have previously been called White-crowned x White-throated, and doesn't (to my eye) match the things that have been called White-crowned x Golden-crowned.  Specifically, sorting through Macaulay:

 

 

... the "WCSPxWTSP" (in the sense of what people have reported as such, not any absolute statement that they are such):

 

- Show no golden tones to the crown, whereas all "WCSPxGCSP" do (unsurprisingly! the gold in the crown is probably the first clue that they were looking at a hybrid with GCSP)

- Have very short and thin postocular stripes, whereas most (but not all) of the "WCSPxGCSP" show postocular stripes that connect to black at the back of the neck

- Have fairly thin crown stripes, especially towards the front, with the central white crown stripe coming all the way to the bill, whereas most (but not all) of the "WCSPxGCSP" have fairly broad crown stripes especially towards the bill, with black meeting over the bill.

 

(I'm not personally noticing any particularly consistent differences between the two buckets in bill or back coloring, though there's clearly variation on both counts.)

 

I think that the bird in my yard matches each of those characteristics. That doesn't mean, of course, that it *is* a WCSP x WTSP. I may be overvaluing facial pattern, for one;  and also how do I know that some of the claimed WCSP x WTSPs aren't actually WCSP x GCSP? (or, ugh, an F2 backcross - we've already established that backcrosses find their way to my yard!)

 

At any rate, definitely an interesting bird, and it's fun to try to puzzle this through.

 

Cheers,

Adam

 

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:21 PM Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao@...> wrote:

Adam

   Amazing looking bird! Hey, if you had sent me this sight unseen with locality/date my thought would have been to call it a Golden-crowned x White-crowned hybrid. The reasons include the overall tone of color above, the noticeable gray wash on breast, the strongly marked crown stripes, long primary projection, and the pink tone to the bill. All suggest a Golden x gambelli White-crowned to me.

Alvaro

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@...

www.alvarosadventures.com

 

From: SFBirds@groups.io <SFBirds@groups.io> On Behalf Of Adam Winer
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 5:52 PM
To: SF Birds <sfbirds@groups.io>
Subject: [SFBirds] Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

 

Yesterday morning, along with an influx of Golden-crowned Sparrows, I had an odd Zonotrichia in my yard that I'm fairly confident is a hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow - or, at least, I'm fairly confident is a match for birds others have called that hybrid combo.

 

It's not a very commonly observed hybrid (this would be the first eBird record for San Francisco!), but there are a number of photos from around California and outside, which this bird matches well. (Macaulay Library has quite a few such photos.)

 

Salient features, at least by my eye:

 

- A short and thin black postocular stripe

- Thin crown stripes, with the impression of a pale blob in the lores where a White-throated might have a yellow spot

- A poorly differentiated, but definitely present pale throat and white submoustachial

- A largely pink bill, unlike either the yellow or orange of typical White-crowned ssps for this area

- A rather tan color to the supercilium, neither gray nor white

- Faint streaking on the underparts

 

Neat bird!  But I haven't seen it since.

 

Cheers,

Adam Winer

 

 


Re: Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

Adam Winer
 

Alvaro,

Thanks for the feedback!  And, yeah, gambeli x Golden-crowned was where I started (and may be where I end).  If nothing else, a few Golden-crowned had just arrived that morning, making it pretty easy to imagine a Golden-crowned hybrid showing up with the same crowd.  It's also a better attested hybrid combo (though there aren't any eBird reports in SF of that combo either). And birdsoftheworld's species accounts make it sound like there's no firm evidence of any White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow hybrid ever having occurred!

What I'll say is that this bird phenotypically matches the things that have previously been called White-crowned x White-throated, and doesn't (to my eye) match the things that have been called White-crowned x Golden-crowned.  Specifically, sorting through Macaulay:


... the "WCSPxWTSP" (in the sense of what people have reported as such, not any absolute statement that they are such):

- Show no golden tones to the crown, whereas all "WCSPxGCSP" do (unsurprisingly! the gold in the crown is probably the first clue that they were looking at a hybrid with GCSP)
- Have very short and thin postocular stripes, whereas most (but not all) of the "WCSPxGCSP" show postocular stripes that connect to black at the back of the neck
- Have fairly thin crown stripes, especially towards the front, with the central white crown stripe coming all the way to the bill, whereas most (but not all) of the "WCSPxGCSP" have fairly broad crown stripes especially towards the bill, with black meeting over the bill.

(I'm not personally noticing any particularly consistent differences between the two buckets in bill or back coloring, though there's clearly variation on both counts.)

I think that the bird in my yard matches each of those characteristics. That doesn't mean, of course, that it *is* a WCSP x WTSP. I may be overvaluing facial pattern, for one;  and also how do I know that some of the claimed WCSP x WTSPs aren't actually WCSP x GCSP? (or, ugh, an F2 backcross - we've already established that backcrosses find their way to my yard!)

At any rate, definitely an interesting bird, and it's fun to try to puzzle this through.

Cheers,
Adam

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 7:21 PM Alvaro Jaramillo <chucao@...> wrote:

Adam

   Amazing looking bird! Hey, if you had sent me this sight unseen with locality/date my thought would have been to call it a Golden-crowned x White-crowned hybrid. The reasons include the overall tone of color above, the noticeable gray wash on breast, the strongly marked crown stripes, long primary projection, and the pink tone to the bill. All suggest a Golden x gambelli White-crowned to me.

Alvaro

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@...

www.alvarosadventures.com

 

From: SFBirds@groups.io <SFBirds@groups.io> On Behalf Of Adam Winer
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 5:52 PM
To: SF Birds <sfbirds@groups.io>
Subject: [SFBirds] Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

 

Yesterday morning, along with an influx of Golden-crowned Sparrows, I had an odd Zonotrichia in my yard that I'm fairly confident is a hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow - or, at least, I'm fairly confident is a match for birds others have called that hybrid combo.

 

It's not a very commonly observed hybrid (this would be the first eBird record for San Francisco!), but there are a number of photos from around California and outside, which this bird matches well. (Macaulay Library has quite a few such photos.)

 

Salient features, at least by my eye:

 

- A short and thin black postocular stripe

- Thin crown stripes, with the impression of a pale blob in the lores where a White-throated might have a yellow spot

- A poorly differentiated, but definitely present pale throat and white submoustachial

- A largely pink bill, unlike either the yellow or orange of typical White-crowned ssps for this area

- A rather tan color to the supercilium, neither gray nor white

- Faint streaking on the underparts

 

Neat bird!  But I haven't seen it since.

 

Cheers,

Adam Winer

 

 


Re: Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

Alvaro Jaramillo
 

Adam

   Amazing looking bird! Hey, if you had sent me this sight unseen with locality/date my thought would have been to call it a Golden-crowned x White-crowned hybrid. The reasons include the overall tone of color above, the noticeable gray wash on breast, the strongly marked crown stripes, long primary projection, and the pink tone to the bill. All suggest a Golden x gambelli White-crowned to me.

Alvaro

 

Alvaro Jaramillo

alvaro@...

www.alvarosadventures.com

 

From: SFBirds@groups.io <SFBirds@groups.io> On Behalf Of Adam Winer
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2021 5:52 PM
To: SF Birds <sfbirds@groups.io>
Subject: [SFBirds] Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

 

Yesterday morning, along with an influx of Golden-crowned Sparrows, I had an odd Zonotrichia in my yard that I'm fairly confident is a hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow - or, at least, I'm fairly confident is a match for birds others have called that hybrid combo.

 

It's not a very commonly observed hybrid (this would be the first eBird record for San Francisco!), but there are a number of photos from around California and outside, which this bird matches well. (Macaulay Library has quite a few such photos.)

 

Salient features, at least by my eye:

 

- A short and thin black postocular stripe

- Thin crown stripes, with the impression of a pale blob in the lores where a White-throated might have a yellow spot

- A poorly differentiated, but definitely present pale throat and white submoustachial

- A largely pink bill, unlike either the yellow or orange of typical White-crowned ssps for this area

- A rather tan color to the supercilium, neither gray nor white

- Faint streaking on the underparts

 

Neat bird!  But I haven't seen it since.

 

Cheers,

Adam Winer

 

 


Hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow?

Adam Winer
 

Yesterday morning, along with an influx of Golden-crowned Sparrows, I had an odd Zonotrichia in my yard that I'm fairly confident is a hybrid White-crowned x White-throated Sparrow - or, at least, I'm fairly confident is a match for birds others have called that hybrid combo.

It's not a very commonly observed hybrid (this would be the first eBird record for San Francisco!), but there are a number of photos from around California and outside, which this bird matches well. (Macaulay Library has quite a few such photos.)

Salient features, at least by my eye:

- A short and thin black postocular stripe
- Thin crown stripes, with the impression of a pale blob in the lores where a White-throated might have a yellow spot
- A poorly differentiated, but definitely present pale throat and white submoustachial
- A largely pink bill, unlike either the yellow or orange of typical White-crowned ssps for this area
- A rather tan color to the supercilium, neither gray nor white
- Faint streaking on the underparts

Neat bird!  But I haven't seen it since.

Cheers,
Adam Winer


P9270072_Export.jpg
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Vesper Sparrow in Bison Paddock

Nina Bai
 

Visible now from fence here (37.7691558, -122.4981745)



--
Nina Bai
San Francisco


Purple Martin

David Assmann
 

Flew over Fort Mason heading south 


Re: Lark Sparrow at Fort Mason

Keith Maley
 

Lark Sparrow continues in a small sparrow flock foraging around the 101 building this afternoon- 3:00 pm. 


On Sep 27, 2021, at 10:42 AM, David Assmann via groups.io <david_assmann@...> wrote:

West of the garden


Re: Clay-colored Sparrow

Stephen Schulz
 

Sorry about my brevity.  It was just east of the Murphy windmill in GGP, presumably the same bird as reported yesterday.

Steve Schulz
Mobile: 415 608-0160

On Monday, September 27, 2021, 01:33:53 PM PDT, Dario Taraborelli <dario.taraborelli@...> wrote:





Thanks Steve, what's the brick house?

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 1:18 PM Stephen Schulz via groups.io <steveschulz1@...> wrote:
Seen with flock of mostly white crowns on bark path about 15 m east of the brick house at about 1:00 p.m.




--
Steve Schulz
San Francisco





--
Steve Schulz
San Francisco


Re: Clay-colored Sparrow

Dario Taraborelli
 

Thanks Steve, what's the brick house?


On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 1:18 PM Stephen Schulz via groups.io <steveschulz1=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Seen with flock of mostly white crowns on bark path about 15 m east of the brick house at about 1:00 p.m.


--
Steve Schulz
San Francisco


Clay-colored Sparrow

Stephen Schulz
 

Seen with flock of mostly white crowns on bark path about 15 m east of the brick house at about 1:00 p.m.


--
Steve Schulz
San Francisco


HY Blackburnian - Mt Sutro OSP

Daniel Scali
 

Found by Catie Michel!, w Whitney Grover and myself. In trees here: (37.7611891, -122.4558331) between surge lot and woods lot foraging from the acacia to the cypress. We weren’t on it when we left the spot.

Dan


Lark Sparrow at Fort Mason

David Assmann
 

West of the garden


Probable Least Flycatcher (but no Catbird) Beach Chalet

Richard Bradus
 

Spent an hour early this evening on stakeout for the catbird seen yesterday but no go.

However, there was an interesting empid working the thicket just northeast from the Play Field commemorative rock on the path off the northwest corner of the Beach Chalet soccer fields.

What caught my eye (in addition to the compact appearance) was behavior similar to the one seen Dec.-Jan. in the Presidio: swooping fly-catching low to the ground and returning in a cycle to favorite perches, most down low. It also flicked its tail downwards repeatedly, but did not vocalize, unfortunately. Full description on eBird: https://ebird.org/checklist/S95236780

May be worth a try tomorrow.

Inline image

Richard Bradus
San Francisco


Palm Warbler continues

Daniel Scali
 

On the Lincoln Park golf course. Moving with Bluebirds, pine siskins, House finches, Black and Says Phoebes, Juncos, White-crowned Sparrows, and some yellow rumped warblers. From 16th hole to 18th. An Osprey was seen just over the cliffs there. Careful of flying golf balls.

Dan


Blackpoll Warbler - Botanical Gardens

Joachim Gonzalez
 

There was a Blackpoll Warbler in a Black Beech tree in the South Africa section of the Botanical Gardens here: (37.7672441, -122.4701804). Overall area was quite active with many tanagers, warblers, and a grosbeak. 

Good Birding,
Joachim Gonzalez


Flyby White-winged Dove at East Wash - Lincoln Park- Sept 25

H Cotter
 

In addition to the other excellent finds today from the round up - I had a flyby White-winged Dove along the cliffs below the east wash, Lincoln Park this morning.

Hugh


Re: Red-shoulder enjoys Richmond District spa treatment

R K Bose
 

That's lovely! Thanks for sharing.

Rupa Bose

On Saturday, September 25, 2021, 12:35:55 PM PDT, Harry Fuller via groups.io <anzatowhee@...> wrote:



Harry Fuller
author of: San Francisco's Natural History: Sand Dunes to Streetcars:
author of Freeway Birdingfreewaybirding.com
birding website: http://www.towhee.net
my birding blog: atowhee.wordpress.com


Cackling Geese.

Aaron Maizlish
 

This morning during the rare bird round up, I found seven cackling geese on the ballfields at treasure Island along with the Canada geese. This is at 11th and H. Small brown geese with wide white collars.

Aaron Maizlish
San Francisco


Black-throated Sparrow - General's House, Presidio

David Armstrong
 

Found earlier by Jo Ann Z on the rare bird roundup - being seen now by many of us across the street from General's House, 1337 Pope St.

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