The Hansa


Hilary Jones
 

Marie/Nico et al, just to say I am in the process of looking at the book you sent me and will continue to do so.
However, there are a number of issues. Firstly, as Christine said, it is in a very archaic form of German but I suppose that's no different to medieval English or French - i.e. words are sometimes spelled as they are pronounced so 'seinen' becomes 'synen' etc and in the digitalisation 'u's have become 'v' s for example.
But the bigger problem is that the book only really gets into its stride in 1498, which is after both Richard and Warbeck. I suppose the closest thing you can liken it to is a travel log - and as there were 195 towns in the league from Sweden to Moscow very little time is devoted to England and then not its politics. HT and his navy get a mention a couple of times, Edward IV is in one footnote and the only other English kings mentioned are Edward III, Richard II and Henry IV (in relation to an agreement of 1409).
I shall keep searching, but I don't hold out much hope. However, because at some time I did a search on Academia I am now being swamped by papers on the Hansa, so fingers crossed. H 


Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...>
 

Hi Hilary.
You might find the previous volume more helpful . I think it contains that letter about Barnet and at least one other thing of interest. So, so often it’s a case of getting a nugget of info from one source, another from somewhere else, and so on till a picture starts to emerge.
M

On Mon, 16 Dec 2019 at 10:24, Hilary Jones via Groups.Io <hjnatdat=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Marie/Nico et al, just to say I am in the process of looking at the book you sent me and will continue to do so.
However, there are a number of issues. Firstly, as Christine said, it is in a very archaic form of German but I suppose that's no different to medieval English or French - i.e. words are sometimes spelled as they are pronounced so 'seinen' becomes 'synen' etc and in the digitalisation 'u's have become 'v' s for example.
But the bigger problem is that the book only really gets into its stride in 1498, which is after both Richard and Warbeck. I suppose the closest thing you can liken it to is a travel log - and as there were 195 towns in the league from Sweden to Moscow very little time is devoted to England and then not its politics. HT and his navy get a mention a couple of times, Edward IV is in one footnote and the only other English kings mentioned are Edward III, Richard II and Henry IV (in relation to an agreement of 1409).
I shall keep searching, but I don't hold out much hope. However, because at some time I did a search on Academia I am now being swamped by papers on the Hansa, so fingers crossed. H 


nico11238@...
 

Hi Hilary,
It is amazing that you can do that. I would be lost. It must be a needle in a haystack, but fingers crossed that there might be something out there.
Nico


Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...>
 

Hi Nico,

There is an index. It’s the books with no index that are impossible.

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of nico11238 via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 December 2019 11:43
To: RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Hilary,
It is amazing that you can do that. I would be lost. It must be a needle in a haystack, but fingers crossed that there might be something out there.
Nico


Hilary Jones
 

And you can do a search which is better than the index. Which is why it will take time. If you search on London you get very many hits!

On Monday, 16 December 2019, 11:59:34 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:


Hi Nico,

There is an index. It’s the books with no index that are impossible.

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of nico11238 via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 December 2019 11:43
To: RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Hilary,
It is amazing that you can do that. I would be lost. It must be a needle in a haystack, but fingers crossed that there might be something out there.
Nico


nico11238@...
 

Hi,
Are there any links to anything you have found on the Hansa. I could see what I can make of it.  Nico


Pamela Bain
 

Try the book, The Edge of the World, by Michael Pye. 

On Dec 18, 2019, at 12:10 PM, nico11238 via Groups.Io <nico11238@...> wrote:

Hi,
Are there any links to anything you have found on the Hansa. I could see what I can make of it.  Nico


Hilary Jones
 

Nico if you sign in to Academia.edu and research something they seem to automatically forward you related papers that come up. I get one every few days. I'll look through and see what they've sent. I've got some research to do for someone but after tomorrow I should have a bit more time - before the big cook-in!  H

On Wednesday, 18 December 2019, 18:10:47 GMT, nico11238 via Groups.Io <nico11238@...> wrote:


Hi,
Are there any links to anything you have found on the Hansa. I could see what I can make of it.  Nico


nico11238@...
 

Thanks Hilary and Pamela, I will look those up.
Nico


Hilary Jones
 

Just to let you know I'm still working on this and I think I've 'cracked' what the problem is. I think there have been problems classifying these books and there is in fact more than one book for each period. Some have a 'Volume' Title, some don't. So there is a 'Volume 4' which also covers the period from 1477 - I wonder if that has the pre 1497 years in it? At the moment I can't find a copy. I realised this because I sent for the 1431-1476 book but that only goes up to 1451. It does have a lot about Henry VI and England though. It would seem that these earlier year volumes are not allowed to be released online so you have to source copies of the books from the US - a real nuisance!   H


Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...>
 

Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Hilary Jones
 

Hi Marie, thank you very much indeed!!

We've latterly been discussing AJ's query whether Buckingham's meeting at the Guildhall happened. I went back to Ross and his sources were the GC and Mancini. We also looked at Stallworth's last two letters. The GC which of course is written by a merchant but not until about 1509 does mention it. Mancini and Stallworth don't but Mancini is all over the place. So there are lots of discussions, quotes and evaluation of sources which I think you might enjoy. I for one am very suspicious about Mancini and how he has been accepted as 'truth' since turning up in 1934.

Hope this helps!  Nice to have you back H 

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:


Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Hilary Jones
 

Marie I've managed to access your link and download. There is an awful lot of stuff with mentions of people like Stillington and Buckingham that needs to be matched up.  The account of Barnet is particularly interesting. I'm hopeful because the Germans are very precise; they know their distances, even from Coventry to Kenilworth! But then they did spend a life travelling.

Quite exciting but a lot of work. H

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:


Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...>
 

I think it’s accepted, though, that Mancini suffers from lack of understanding of the English political system. It’s pretty clear Buckingham’s speech was given at the Guildhall, and that the meeting of the Estates at Westminster which accepted what we now know as Titulus Regius came a day or two later.

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 07 January 2020 11:16
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Marie, thank you very much indeed!!

 

We've latterly been discussing AJ's query whether Buckingham's meeting at the Guildhall happened. I went back to Ross and his sources were the GC and Mancini. We also looked at Stallworth's last two letters. The GC which of course is written by a merchant but not until about 1509 does mention it. Mancini and Stallworth don't but Mancini is all over the place. So there are lots of discussions, quotes and evaluation of sources which I think you might enjoy. I for one am very suspicious about Mancini and how he has been accepted as 'truth' since turning up in 1934.

 

Hope this helps!  Nice to have you back H 

 

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...>
 

Hi Hilary, don’t worry any more about the Barnet account – that is very well known as there are already two published translations, the most up-to-date one being Hannes Kleineke’s in the Ricardian.

 

Anything else you can find and translate for us, though, would be most welcome.

 

Marie

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 07 January 2020 13:43
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Marie I've managed to access your link and download. There is an awful lot of stuff with mentions of people like Stillington and Buckingham that needs to be matched up.  The account of Barnet is particularly interesting. I'm hopeful because the Germans are very precise; they know their distances, even from Coventry to Kenilworth! But then they did spend a life travelling.

 

Quite exciting but a lot of work. H

 

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Hilary Jones
 

Hi Marie, I've also accepted it now because it's in the GC. As expected, the GC would concentrate on City and guild matters, that's after all what they were primarily about. So even though the GC was later I think we have to accept it; they'd be more interested in that than other aspects of things that were going on. H

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020, 14:34:28 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:


I think it’s accepted, though, that Mancini suffers from lack of understanding of the English political system. It’s pretty clear Buckingham’s speech was given at the Guildhall, and that the meeting of the Estates at Westminster which accepted what we now know as Titulus Regius came a day or two later.

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 07 January 2020 11:16
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Marie, thank you very much indeed!!

 

We've latterly been discussing AJ's query whether Buckingham's meeting at the Guildhall happened. I went back to Ross and his sources were the GC and Mancini. We also looked at Stallworth's last two letters. The GC which of course is written by a merchant but not until about 1509 does mention it. Mancini and Stallworth don't but Mancini is all over the place. So there are lots of discussions, quotes and evaluation of sources which I think you might enjoy. I for one am very suspicious about Mancini and how he has been accepted as 'truth' since turning up in 1934.

 

Hope this helps!  Nice to have you back H 

 

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...>
 

Sorry everyone,

Just realised I’ve written a spate of responses to emails that turned out to be over a month old. Please ignore!

Marie

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 12 February 2020 14:46
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Marie, I've also accepted it now because it's in the GC. As expected, the GC would concentrate on City and guild matters, that's after all what they were primarily about. So even though the GC was later I think we have to accept it; they'd be more interested in that than other aspects of things that were going on. H

 

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020, 14:34:28 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

I think it’s accepted, though, that Mancini suffers from lack of understanding of the English political system. It’s pretty clear Buckingham’s speech was given at the Guildhall, and that the meeting of the Estates at Westminster which accepted what we now know as Titulus Regius came a day or two later.

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 07 January 2020 11:16
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Marie, thank you very much indeed!!

 

We've latterly been discussing AJ's query whether Buckingham's meeting at the Guildhall happened. I went back to Ross and his sources were the GC and Mancini. We also looked at Stallworth's last two letters. The GC which of course is written by a merchant but not until about 1509 does mention it. Mancini and Stallworth don't but Mancini is all over the place. So there are lots of discussions, quotes and evaluation of sources which I think you might enjoy. I for one am very suspicious about Mancini and how he has been accepted as 'truth' since turning up in 1934.

 

Hope this helps!  Nice to have you back H 

 

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Hilary Jones
 

Marie it was a marvellous exercise - I'd never ventured into medieval Dutch. It was like the Times Crossword. But I was good fun, I didn't look at the Arrivall first.

There is a bit about Stoke Field (and a lot about HT). When my brain has recovered I'll have a go at that. H  

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020, 14:36:35 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:


Hi Hilary, don’t worry any more about the Barnet account – that is very well known as there are already two published translations, the most up-to-date one being Hannes Kleineke’s in the Ricardian.

 

Anything else you can find and translate for us, though, would be most welcome.

 

Marie

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 07 January 2020 13:43
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Marie I've managed to access your link and download. There is an awful lot of stuff with mentions of people like Stillington and Buckingham that needs to be matched up.  The account of Barnet is particularly interesting. I'm hopeful because the Germans are very precise; they know their distances, even from Coventry to Kenilworth! But then they did spend a life travelling.

 

Quite exciting but a lot of work. H

 

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...>
 

Hi Hilary,

 

Check the file I posted. There are earlier London chronicles included (the earliest being Vitellius AXVI, 1494) which tell the same story.

 

Kingsford’s Chronicles of London (which includes Vitellius AXVI) is available online https://archive.org/details/chroniclesoflond00kinguoft/page/n6/mode/2up so there’s no need to rely on the GC.

 

Marie

 

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 12 February 2020 14:46
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Marie, I've also accepted it now because it's in the GC. As expected, the GC would concentrate on City and guild matters, that's after all what they were primarily about. So even though the GC was later I think we have to accept it; they'd be more interested in that than other aspects of things that were going on. H

 

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020, 14:34:28 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

I think it’s accepted, though, that Mancini suffers from lack of understanding of the English political system. It’s pretty clear Buckingham’s speech was given at the Guildhall, and that the meeting of the Estates at Westminster which accepted what we now know as Titulus Regius came a day or two later.

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 07 January 2020 11:16
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Marie, thank you very much indeed!!

 

We've latterly been discussing AJ's query whether Buckingham's meeting at the Guildhall happened. I went back to Ross and his sources were the GC and Mancini. We also looked at Stallworth's last two letters. The GC which of course is written by a merchant but not until about 1509 does mention it. Mancini and Stallworth don't but Mancini is all over the place. So there are lots of discussions, quotes and evaluation of sources which I think you might enjoy. I for one am very suspicious about Mancini and how he has been accepted as 'truth' since turning up in 1934.

 

Hope this helps!  Nice to have you back H 

 

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie


Hilary Jones
 

It was very noble of you :) :)   H (who's sure she owes Doug a ton of replies)


On Wednesday, 12 February 2020, 14:47:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:


Sorry everyone,

Just realised I’ve written a spate of responses to emails that turned out to be over a month old. Please ignore!

Marie

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 12 February 2020 14:46
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Marie, I've also accepted it now because it's in the GC. As expected, the GC would concentrate on City and guild matters, that's after all what they were primarily about. So even though the GC was later I think we have to accept it; they'd be more interested in that than other aspects of things that were going on. H

 

On Wednesday, 12 February 2020, 14:34:28 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

I think it’s accepted, though, that Mancini suffers from lack of understanding of the English political system. It’s pretty clear Buckingham’s speech was given at the Guildhall, and that the meeting of the Estates at Westminster which accepted what we now know as Titulus Regius came a day or two later.

 

From: RichardIIIForum@groups.io <RichardIIIForum@groups.io> On Behalf Of Hilary Jones via Groups.Io
Sent: 07 January 2020 11:16
To: richardiiiforum@groups.io; RichardIIIForum@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RichardIIIForum] The Hansa

 

Hi Marie, thank you very much indeed!!

 

We've latterly been discussing AJ's query whether Buckingham's meeting at the Guildhall happened. I went back to Ross and his sources were the GC and Mancini. We also looked at Stallworth's last two letters. The GC which of course is written by a merchant but not until about 1509 does mention it. Mancini and Stallworth don't but Mancini is all over the place. So there are lots of discussions, quotes and evaluation of sources which I think you might enjoy. I for one am very suspicious about Mancini and how he has been accepted as 'truth' since turning up in 1934.

 

Hope this helps!  Nice to have you back H 

 

On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 00:37:29 GMT, Marie Walsh <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

 

 

Hi Hilary,
I'm afraid I've been away for a while.
There are a lot of books in this series, and they are confusingingly named, with more than one tome in a "volume" I think. There is indeed a tome starting with 1477 and containing several references to Edward IV and Richard III. These are all available for free download. This is a German-language website that has them all. They are large files and take a fair while to download and pop up on screen. If you have problems, try right clicking and choosing "open in new tab":-
https://www.hansischergeschichtsverein.de/hanserecesse?seite=1
Note that the links for the entire series run to three pages.

I'll try and read through the rest of what I've missed since the middle of last month, but if anyone can provide me with a summary of the main questions under discussion, that would be even better.

Marie