RichardIIIForum@groups.io | More About Thomas Beaumont (colleague of Oliver King and brother-in -law of Edward Brampton)

Hilary Jones

#37

Hi, this carries on from the discussion on the Yahoo site. We established that Beaumont's connections are with London going back to at least 1400 and that the connections are with the merchant/Lord Mayor classes, going right back to the fourteenth century.

So recently I've unearthed:

Emma 'Beaumount' Thomas's mother (later Spaigne) joined the Fraternity of St Nicholas in 1460. No Mr Beaumount yet.
Salter Thomas Beaumont who died in 1457 came from Watlington Oxfordshire. In 1390 John 'the younger' and Joan Beaumont had land in Watlington viz:

CP 25/1/191/24, number 10.

Link: Image of document at AALT

County: Oxfordshire.

Place: Westminster.

Date: One week from St Michael, 13 Richard [II] [6 October 1389]. And afterwards one week from St Hilary in the same year [20 January 1390].

Parties: William Hyde, citizen of London', William Pychard', citizen of London', and John Bedewynde, chaplain, querents, by John Saymor, put in the place of William Hyde and John, and John Bemond' of Watlyngton' the younger and Joan, his wife, deforciants.

Property: 3 messuages, 3 tofts, 12 acres of land and 4 acres of meadow in Watlyngton', Clayore and Pyryton'.

Action: Plea of covenant.

Agreement: John Bemond' and Joan have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of William Pychard', as those which the same William, William Hyde and John Bedewynde have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Joan to William, William and John Bedewynde and the heirs of William Pychard' for ever.

Warranty: Warranty.

For this: William, William and John Bedewynde have given them 20 marks of silver.'

Hyde and Pycard are also from the London merchant classes. Pycard was the grandson of Lord Mayor John Gisors and his mother went on to marry Bartholomew Burghersh one of the first Knights of the Garter.

Nico and I have often speculated that first names can be relevant. The second son of Chandler John Beaumont (died 1417) was called Adam - not a name used in the main Beaumont families. I raided my piggy bank and bought 'Beaumont Crusaders and Campaigners' by Lucy La Zouche, which tries to research all the families which came from places called Beaumont in Normandy. There was indeed an Adam de Beaumont who came from Beaumont-en-Gatinais and was Chamberlain to Louis VII of France. His eldest son, another Adam, went on crusade with Richard I and died at Acre. His younger brother founded the Drayton, Norfolk branch of the Beaumonts and it was a younger son, named William, who moved to Crosland in East Yorkshire and founded the Beaumont family there - later to become the Beaumonts of Whitley Beaumont. Each generation had a son called Adam. Sir John Beaumont, who died in Huddersfield in 1354 had a younger son called Thomas (born about 1340) who married Anne de Grantham, daughter of John de Grantham - of London. John de Grantham was Lord Mayor of London. There is a merchant Thomas Beaumont recorded in the London letterbooks as having died in Lombardy in the 1380s. Could this be our link?
I have never been able to trace Chandler John's son Adam, but Zouche says that an Adam Beaumont received a general pardon in 1447 for being a supporter of Humphrey Duke of Gloucester and Richard Duke of York. Some may recall that Oliver King's stepfather, Richard Nedeham was pardoned on the scaffold for being a supporter of Humphrey Duke of Gloucester. I have yet to find the pardon for Adam Beaumont. It does though, I believe, start to hang things together.
Finally, we talked in other posts about whether Malpas and Vaughan were plotting with Alice Montagu/Salisbury. I had overlooked the fact that Alice's grandmother was heiress to the substantial London properties of her father, Mayor Adam Frauncys. I think it not unlikely that Alice was using her leverage in London to support the Yorkist cause as well? H

(this has been quite a good writing experience - I would just say watch the 'Discard' button - if you hit it by mistake like I did you'll have to write it all again)

nico11238@...

#39

Hi Hilary,

That is an excellent find and it does tick the boxes for the future Emma Spayne? The date does seem right for her age group. Since the Fraternity of St. Nicholas was mostly for parish clerks and their wives, then that was the likely occupation of Thomas Beaumont's fatheśxx.Are there records of parish clerks? It also included high ranking people, which may have been a conduit to Oliver King if the Beaumonts were not already familiar with him.

That is also interesting about the Adam Beaumonts. I never found anything on John the Chandler's son either, but I still suspect that he is the link to Thomas and Margaret's family from the Watlington group. Maybe they are a sub branch of the Norfolk or Whitley Beaumonts. I also found some Hertfordshire Beaumonts.

It is fantastic to see the New group already up and running. I'm still getting used to it, but I will work it out when I get back on Friday, when I get home to proper Wi-Fi.

Nico

Show quoted text

On Tuesday, 22 October 2019, 11:59:41 CEST, Hilary Jones via Groups.Io <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

Hi, this carries on from the discussion on the Yahoo site. We established that Beaumont's connections are with London going back to at least 1400 and that the connections are with the merchant/Lord Mayor classes, going right back to the fourteenth century.

So recently I've unearthed:

Emma 'Beaumount' Thomas's mother (later Spaigne) joined the Fraternity of St Nicholas in 1460. No Mr Beaumount yet.
Salter Thomas Beaumont who died in 1457 came from Watlington Oxfordshire. In 1390 John 'the younger' and Joan Beaumont had land in Watlington viz:

CP 25/1/191/24, number 10.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Oxfordshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from St Michael, 13 Richard [II] [6 October 1389]. And afterwards one week from St Hilary in the same year [20 January 1390].
Parties: William Hyde, citizen of London', William Pychard', citizen of London', and John Bedewynde, chaplain, querents, by John Saymor, put in the place of William Hyde and John, and John Bemond' of Watlyngton' the younger and Joan, his wife, deforciants.
Property: 3 messuages, 3 tofts, 12 acres of land and 4 acres of meadow in Watlyngton', Clayore and Pyryton'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John Bemond' and Joan have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of William Pychard', as those which the same William, William Hyde and John Bedewynde have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Joan to William, William and John Bedewynde and the heirs of William Pychard' for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: William, William and John Bedewynde have given them 20 marks of silver.'

Hyde and Pycard are also from the London merchant classes. Pycard was the grandson of Lord Mayor John Gisors and his mother went on to marry Bartholomew Burghersh one of the first Knights of the Garter.

Nico and I have often speculated that first names can be relevant. The second son of Chandler John Beaumont (died 1417) was called Adam - not a name used in the main Beaumont families. I raided my piggy bank and bought 'Beaumont Crusaders and Campaigners' by Lucy La Zouche, which tries to research all the families which came from places called Beaumont in Normandy. There was indeed an Adam de Beaumont who came from Beaumont-en-Gatinais and was Chamberlain to Louis VII of France. His eldest son, another Adam, went on crusade with Richard I and died at Acre. His younger brother founded the Drayton, Norfolk branch of the Beaumonts and it was a younger son, named William, who moved to Crosland in East Yorkshire and founded the Beaumont family there - later to become the Beaumonts of Whitley Beaumont. Each generation had a son called Adam. Sir John Beaumont, who died in Huddersfield in 1354 had a younger son called Thomas (born about 1340) who married Anne de Grantham, daughter of John de Grantham - of London. John de Grantham was Lord Mayor of London. There is a merchant Thomas Beaumont recorded in the London letterbooks as having died in Lombardy in the 1380s. Could this be our link?
I have never been able to trace Chandler John's son Adam, but Zouche says that an Adam Beaumont received a general pardon in 1447 for being a supporter of Humphrey Duke of Gloucester and Richard Duke of York. Some may recall that Oliver King's stepfather, Richard Nedeham was pardoned on the scaffold for being a supporter of Humphrey Duke of Gloucester. I have yet to find the pardon for Adam Beaumont. It does though, I believe, start to hang things together.
Finally, we talked in other posts about whether Malpas and Vaughan were plotting with Alice Montagu/Salisbury. I had overlooked the fact that Alice's grandmother was heiress to the substantial London properties of her father, Mayor Adam Frauncys. I think it not unlikely that Alice was using her leverage in London to support the Yorkist cause as well? H

(this has been quite a good writing experience - I would just say watch the 'Discard' button - if you hit it by mistake like I did you'll have to write it all again)

Hilary Jones

#50

Nico I spent yesterday going through all the Fraternity lists starting from 1444 to 1520 (I didn't think Emme would be alive after that). There is only one other occurrence of the name Beaumont (with variations) and that's a John Bemonde in the mid 1440s (they are out of order and undated there). The lists include deaths as well and whether women are the wives of clerks or just lay people. Unfortunately the 'Emma' list is just mulierum so for her we can't tell. Same with John Bemonde - just a full list.

It's a strange assortment of people, most of the people who we talk about are not there, but Henry Burton, the Prior who was arrested with Forster, is, as is William Worsley, Dean of St Pauls. Ironically it really takes off after 1485, which is really odd. Unless that is it was a 'club' for other activities? H

Show quoted text

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019, 01:05:04 BST, nico11238 via Groups.Io <nico11238@...> wrote:

Hi Hilary,

That is an excellent find and it does tick the boxes for the future Emma Spayne? The date does seem right for her age group. Since the Fraternity of St. Nicholas was mostly for parish clerks and their wives, then that was the likely occupation of Thomas Beaumont's fatheśxx.Are there records of parish clerks? It also included high ranking people, which may have been a conduit to Oliver King if the Beaumonts were not already familiar with him.

That is also interesting about the Adam Beaumonts. I never found anything on John the Chandler's son either, but I still suspect that he is the link to Thomas and Margaret's family from the Watlington group. Maybe they are a sub branch of the Norfolk or Whitley Beaumonts. I also found some Hertfordshire Beaumonts.

It is fantastic to see the New group already up and running. I'm still getting used to it, but I will work it out when I get back on Friday, when I get home to proper Wi-Fi.

Nico

On Tuesday, 22 October 2019, 11:59:41 CEST, Hilary Jones via Groups.Io <hjnatdat@...> wrote:

Hi, this carries on from the discussion on the Yahoo site. We established that Beaumont's connections are with London going back to at least 1400 and that the connections are with the merchant/Lord Mayor classes, going right back to the fourteenth century.

So recently I've unearthed:

Emma 'Beaumount' Thomas's mother (later Spaigne) joined the Fraternity of St Nicholas in 1460. No Mr Beaumount yet.
Salter Thomas Beaumont who died in 1457 came from Watlington Oxfordshire. In 1390 John 'the younger' and Joan Beaumont had land in Watlington viz:

CP 25/1/191/24, number 10.
Link: Image of document at AALT
County: Oxfordshire.
Place: Westminster.
Date: One week from St Michael, 13 Richard [II] [6 October 1389]. And afterwards one week from St Hilary in the same year [20 January 1390].
Parties: William Hyde, citizen of London', William Pychard', citizen of London', and John Bedewynde, chaplain, querents, by John Saymor, put in the place of William Hyde and John, and John Bemond' of Watlyngton' the younger and Joan, his wife, deforciants.
Property: 3 messuages, 3 tofts, 12 acres of land and 4 acres of meadow in Watlyngton', Clayore and Pyryton'.
Action: Plea of covenant.
Agreement: John Bemond' and Joan have acknowledged the tenements to be the right of William Pychard', as those which the same William, William Hyde and John Bedewynde have of their gift, and have remised and quitclaimed them from themselves and the heirs of Joan to William, William and John Bedewynde and the heirs of William Pychard' for ever.
Warranty: Warranty.
For this: William, William and John Bedewynde have given them 20 marks of silver.'

Hyde and Pycard are also from the London merchant classes. Pycard was the grandson of Lord Mayor John Gisors and his mother went on to marry Bartholomew Burghersh one of the first Knights of the Garter.

Nico and I have often speculated that first names can be relevant. The second son of Chandler John Beaumont (died 1417) was called Adam - not a name used in the main Beaumont families. I raided my piggy bank and bought 'Beaumont Crusaders and Campaigners' by Lucy La Zouche, which tries to research all the families which came from places called Beaumont in Normandy. There was indeed an Adam de Beaumont who came from Beaumont-en-Gatinais and was Chamberlain to Louis VII of France. His eldest son, another Adam, went on crusade with Richard I and died at Acre. His younger brother founded the Drayton, Norfolk branch of the Beaumonts and it was a younger son, named William, who moved to Crosland in East Yorkshire and founded the Beaumont family there - later to become the Beaumonts of Whitley Beaumont. Each generation had a son called Adam. Sir John Beaumont, who died in Huddersfield in 1354 had a younger son called Thomas (born about 1340) who married Anne de Grantham, daughter of John de Grantham - of London. John de Grantham was Lord Mayor of London. There is a merchant Thomas Beaumont recorded in the London letterbooks as having died in Lombardy in the 1380s. Could this be our link?
I have never been able to trace Chandler John's son Adam, but Zouche says that an Adam Beaumont received a general pardon in 1447 for being a supporter of Humphrey Duke of Gloucester and Richard Duke of York. Some may recall that Oliver King's stepfather, Richard Nedeham was pardoned on the scaffold for being a supporter of Humphrey Duke of Gloucester. I have yet to find the pardon for Adam Beaumont. It does though, I believe, start to hang things together.
Finally, we talked in other posts about whether Malpas and Vaughan were plotting with Alice Montagu/Salisbury. I had overlooked the fact that Alice's grandmother was heiress to the substantial London properties of her father, Mayor Adam Frauncys. I think it not unlikely that Alice was using her leverage in London to support the Yorkist cause as well? H

(this has been quite a good writing experience - I would just say watch the 'Discard' button - if you hit it by mistake like I did you'll have to write it all again)

walshmarie414@...

#51

Hi Hilary,
Thanks for the St. Nicholas find Hilary - that is going to be a real help, I think.
I'm absolutely sure this will be the right Emma Beaumont/ Beamount.

My guess, since she didn't join with her husband, would be that she may have been already widowed by then. If the York Corpus Christi Guild is anything to go by, it may be also that some of the others who joined that year might have been members of her birth family.

If Emma was indeed widowed by 1460, then that makes salter Thomas Beamount an even stronger candidate as her husband; hopefully something will eventually turn up that will prove it one way or the other.

I suspect that London clerics joined the fraternity quite young, which may be why you find people who became prominent after 1485 joining in 1460.

The general impression I've got from trawling records is that Adam was a very popular name up till about 1400, but then started to fall out of favour.

---

To pick up on your other point - there is no connection between the treason charges against the Countess of Salisbury and those against Vaughan and Malpas, not any connection between the charges against the Countess and the city of London. Two entirely separate incidents, and the Act of Attainder doesn't suggest otherwise.
The Countess said treasonable things at one date at Middleham, prior to her husband leaving the castle for Ludlow. Vaughan said treasonable things in the parish of St. James Garlickhythe in London (probably in the Herbert mansion) on a different date, probably before setting off to join the Duke of York's force at London. There's no reason at all to suppose the two are connected except via the fact that all the Yorkist forces were about to converge on Ludlow. Ludlow is the only link.

Hilary Jones

#52

Hi Marie, unfortunately Salter Thomas's wives were both called Alice. I think our 1440s' John Bemonde could be a candidate if he married her later when she was young. I'll have to look it up again, but I'm pretty sure that a John Bonauntre became a scrivener at the same time as Robert Spaigne. We know Spaigne was a scrivener for the Courts, so that could be how Emma knew how to sue later. And in some translations Bonauntre is given as Beaumont so I'm not uncomfortable with that.

Re Adam, my first theory was that Chandler John could have married into the Fraunceys family but I could find no connection. Something took his children into the mayoral hierarchy. Interestingly, Mayor John de Grantham's eventual heiress married the steward of William Montagu Earl of Salisbury, and Salter Thomas was a partner in some land acquisitions with his son-in-law and heir. The Adam Beaumont/Richard Nedeham Humphrey Duke of Gloucester and ROY link is also interesrting. I need to find that pardon! H

Show quoted text

On Friday, 25 October 2019, 12:38:26 BST, walshmarie414@... <walshmarie414@...> wrote:

Hi Hilary,
Thanks for the St. Nicholas find Hilary - that is going to be a real help, I think.
I'm absolutely sure this will be the right Emma Beaumont/ Beamount.

My guess, since she didn't join with her husband, would be that she may have been already widowed by then. If the York Corpus Christi Guild is anything to go by, it may be also that some of the others who joined that year might have been members of her birth family.

If Emma was indeed widowed by 1460, then that makes salter Thomas Beamount an even stronger candidate as her husband; hopefully something will eventually turn up that will prove it one way or the other.

I suspect that London clerics joined the fraternity quite young, which may be why you find people who became prominent after 1485 joining in 1460.

The general impression I've got from trawling records is that Adam was a very popular name up till about 1400, but then started to fall out of favour.

---

To pick up on your other point - there is no connection between the treason charges against the Countess of Salisbury and those against Vaughan and Malpas, not any connection between the charges against the Countess and the city of London. Two entirely separate incidents, and the Act of Attainder doesn't suggest otherwise.
The Countess said treasonable things at one date at Middleham, prior to her husband leaving the castle for Ludlow. Vaughan said treasonable things in the parish of St. James Garlickhythe in London (probably in the Herbert mansion) on a different date, probably before setting off to join the Duke of York's force at London. There's no reason at all to suppose the two are connected except via the fact that all the Yorkist forces were about to converge on Ludlow. Ludlow is the only link.

nico11238@...

#66

Hi Hilary/Marie,

I just got back and I'm still catching up, but I have had a look through some of the Bede Rolls on BHOL. They seem quite jumbled. Are they the best ones to use? If John Bemonde was the only Bemonde/Beaumont/Bonauntre in the list, then that must have been Emma's husband, because the guild was open to scriveners and their wives, but not women in their own right. I found a reference to a Peter Bonauntre who was a scrivener who took the scrivener's company oath in 1434. He would most likely be around the same age as John Bemonde. Emma was probably quite a lot younger. There is also a clerk named Richard Bonauntre listed in the AALT. The names sound familiar, possibly they were in one of the wills.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/london-record-soc/vol4/pp20-49
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/Indices/CP40Indices/CP40no814/CP40no814Pl.htm

You have probably already come across this article, but the House of York had a close association with the St. Nicholas Fraternity. Possibly this was where the Margaret Beaumont-Edward Brampton relationship originated.
http://www.richardiii.net/downloads/Ricardian/2005_vol15_james_yorkist_royals_on_bede_roll.pdf

Also, I noticed on the wikipedia page that St. Clement Dane's church was on the list of Churches associated with the Guild. This was Thomas Beaumont's first appointment as a parish priest, and I think I recall Emma Spaigne and Thomas' lawsuit of 1500 was connected to that area. Could this be a branch of the family that had an association with this parish for many years? I will keep digging.

Nico

Hilary Jones

#90

Hi Nico/Marie, yes sorry it was Peter Bonauntre who was the scrivener and he's enrolled alongside Ralph Spaigne. John Bemonde is still alive in 1460 as he's the Plaintiff in a couple of Court cases then. Richard Beaumond inherits in Salter Thomas's will as his blood relation. There's also a Priest called Robert who was probably Salter's brother as they came from the same parish. BTW the name Robert and Richard are also dominant in the Yorkshire Beaumonts.

I find searching about the Bede Roll and getting a 'better' copy really hard. In fact I didn't know it was for clerks until you told me. The Yorkists do indeed get a special mention, including ROY and Edward's sisters. Another 'related' name there is Hugh Wiche, Dyonisia's husband. His entry and death are recorded, as is his second wife, Joan Wodecok. That's interesting about St Clement Danes.

I also followed the trail of a Richard Beamond who died in 1428 in Tarrington, Gloucestershire (thanks Hicks!). Now he clearly wasn't born there, the IPM lands belong to his wife, Katherine atte Rudyng. He left two daughters, one who married Richard Avenall and the other who was probably the second wife of John Beauchamp of Holt. They seem to have had one son, Richard Esquire. Interestingly both William Pycard and William Hyde mentioned in the John Beamond Watlington deed have lands in Wiltshire/Herefordshire/Glos. I did wonder whether they married Beaumond daughters, which would explain the gift of the lands. Hyde's wife was called Johanna and Chaundler John mentions a kinswoman Johanna in his will? He also mentions a kinsman John, could this be the Watlington John?

Still not there yet - but creeping there. BTW I'm sure there's a Wilford in the Roll. H

nico11238@...

#120

Hi,

I have been hunting around for possible Beaumonts/Beamonds/Bonauntres related to St. Clement Danes, but haven't found anything yet. It is interesting that Peter and Richard Bonauntre as well as Spaigne are scriveners and John Beamonde is parish clerk. It could be a family related profession. Perhaps there are a number of cousins; merchants in the city and clerks/scriveners further west.

You could be right about the Gloucestershire link. I will keep an eye out for any possible Wilfords in the roll.

Nico

Hilary Jones

#126

I think it was Thomas Wilford, Nico. H

Show quoted text

On Monday, 28 October 2019, 22:45:34 GMT, nico11238 via Groups.Io <nico11238@...> wrote:

Hi,

I have been hunting around for possible Beaumonts/Beamonds/Bonauntres related to St. Clement Danes, but haven't found anything yet. It is interesting that Peter and Richard Bonauntre as well as Spaigne are scriveners and John Beamonde is parish clerk. It could be a family related profession. Perhaps there are a number of cousins; merchants in the city and clerks/scriveners further west.

You could be right about the Gloucestershire link. I will keep an eye out for any possible Wilfords in the roll.

Nico

Hilary Jones

#132

Nico I discovered yesterday that a William and Elizabeth Bemund joined the Order in 1509 as lay members. Now there was a William Beaumont in London at that time. He was the son of Richard Beaumont Pinner and brother of Richard Beaumont who became Master of the Pinners at about that time.

Looking at the definition of 'Pinner' it could in this context either mean someone who made pins, or someone who used them in the drapery/dressmaking business - you know, pinning out garments. Oliver King's father was a Draper. I wonder if there was a connection? H

Show quoted text

On Monday, 28 October 2019, 22:45:34 GMT, nico11238 via Groups.Io <nico11238@...> wrote:

Hi,

I have been hunting around for possible Beaumonts/Beamonds/Bonauntres related to St. Clement Danes, but haven't found anything yet. It is interesting that Peter and Richard Bonauntre as well as Spaigne are scriveners and John Beamonde is parish clerk. It could be a family related profession. Perhaps there are a number of cousins; merchants in the city and clerks/scriveners further west.

You could be right about the Gloucestershire link. I will keep an eye out for any possible Wilfords in the roll.

Nico

nico11238@...

#135

Hi Hilary,
.
William and Elizabeth are the last Beaumont (various spellings). William could be the son of Richard Beaumond the Pinner, and most likely a cousin of Thomas Beaumont and Margaret Brampton. I do suspect that their parents are Emma and John Beaumont, and that Emma was John's second wife, as there is a listing for 'Agnes Beamonte' who died in 1458-9. Emma joined in 1460, probably shortly after she married John. The only family beneficiaries in Thomas Beaumont's will were Emma Spayne, Margaret Brampton and her children, so that suggests that is the extent of his immediate family.

Going through the lists of name, the St. Nicholas Fraternity does appear to be a prestigious organization, as there are a lot of names of prestigious people. In addition to the York family, Margaret Beaufort also joined in the early 1480s. Possibly it was open only to more senior clerks and scriveners. I didn't find any Spaynes or Bonauntres although Ralph and Robert Spayne as well as Peter and Richard Bonauntre are recorded as being scriveners. I couldn't find Thomas or any Wilfords, but there were many King/Kyngs and several Cosyns.

I will have a look through the wills for the King family again. When I last looked most were from the city of London, but I do recall a group from further West.

Nico

Hilary Jones

#136

Hi Nico, I agree with you about Thomas probably having no siblings. Richard Beaumont Pinner junior, who was probably William's brother was still going strong in 1509 when he became Warden and his wife (unnamed) joined. As you say there are lots of Kings and there were several contemporaries to the Oliver family. The Spaynes seem to be more around Luton.

Yes I'm reduced to going through these wills name by name because some having spellings which I could never have guessed.

You may be interested in this:

http://www.helsinki.fi/iehc2006/papers3/Bolton.pdf

Salter Thomas is in there. Even to skim it is fascinating. After reading this no-one could claim the medieval world was crude. So our guys were selling - and borrowing - from abroad, and lending money to the Crown as well. Fascinating H

Show quoted text

On Wednesday, 30 October 2019, 13:30:24 GMT, nico11238 via Groups.Io <nico11238@...> wrote:

Hi Hilary,
.
William and Elizabeth are the last Beaumont (various spellings). William could be the son of Richard Beaumond the Pinner, and most likely a cousin of Thomas Beaumont and Margaret Brampton. I do suspect that their parents are Emma and John Beaumont, and that Emma was John's second wife, as there is a listing for 'Agnes Beamonte' who died in 1458-9. Emma joined in 1460, probably shortly after she married John. The only family beneficiaries in Thomas Beaumont's will were Emma Spayne, Margaret Brampton and her children, so that suggests that is the extent of his immediate family.

Going through the lists of name, the St. Nicholas Fraternity does appear to be a prestigious organization, as there are a lot of names of prestigious people. In addition to the York family, Margaret Beaufort also joined in the early 1480s. Possibly it was open only to more senior clerks and scriveners. I didn't find any Spaynes or Bonauntres although Ralph and Robert Spayne as well as Peter and Richard Bonauntre are recorded as being scriveners. I couldn't find Thomas or any Wilfords, but there were many King/Kyngs and several Cosyns.

I will have a look through the wills for the King family again. When I last looked most were from the city of London, but I do recall a group from further West.

Nico

nico11238@...

#143

Thanks Hilary for the article. It is a fascinating insight into London's vibrant late medieval economy. Thomas the Salter must have been very wealthy with a another business selling wool as well as being a Salter. According to the NA converter in today's money, he was paid £467,918.01 by the bank. The reference to wool from the West Country was interesting too and Burford isn't too far from Watlington, Perhaps this had been the family's route to London. Also, Brampton imported wool, so this may have been another link to Margaret's family. I wonder where John Beamond who married Emma fitted in.

From the wills, Robert Kyng the Draper appears to have been another powerful merchant. Several Kyngs seem to have been drapers, who would have been associated with pinners like Richard or William Beaumont. Most biographies of Oliver King don't specify exactly who his father was. Is there any certainty as to who his father actually was? Also, is there a definite link between the Bonauntre and Beamond/Beaumont families?

Nico

Hilary Jones

#144

Re Oliver King, yes there is. His father was John King (alias Beket) and the children including Oliver are listed after the father’s death and the mother’s marriage to Richard Nedeham. King as you say was a draper. There are also several lawsuits of Nedeham & mother chasing money that was outstanding to him.

They were indeed wealthy folk weren’t they? H

Show quoted text

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019, 10:39 pm, nico11238 via Groups.Io <nico11238@...> wrote:

Thanks Hilary for the article. It is a fascinating insight into London's vibrant late medieval economy. Thomas the Salter must have been very wealthy with a another business selling wool as well as being a Salter. According to the NA converter in today's money, he was paid £467,918.01 by the bank. The reference to wool from the West Country was interesting too and Burford isn't too far from Watlington, Perhaps this had been the family's route to London. Also, Brampton imported wool, so this may have been another link to Margaret's family. I wonder where John Beamond who married Emma fitted in.

From the wills, Robert Kyng the Draper appears to have been another powerful merchant. Several Kyngs seem to have been drapers, who would have been associated with pinners like Richard or William Beaumont. Most biographies of Oliver King don't specify exactly who his father was. Is there any certainty as to who his father actually was? Also, is there a definite link between the Bonauntre and Beamond/Beaumont families?

Nico

Hilary Jones

#146

Hi Nico, I forgot to say, if ever there was the need to spirit someone away, these people had the funds, the contacts and wherewithal to do it, didn't they? H

Show quoted text

On Wednesday, 30 October 2019, 22:40:00 GMT, nico11238 via Groups.Io <nico11238@...> wrote:

Thanks Hilary for the article. It is a fascinating insight into London's vibrant late medieval economy. Thomas the Salter must have been very wealthy with a another business selling wool as well as being a Salter. According to the NA converter in today's money, he was paid £467,918.01 by the bank. The reference to wool from the West Country was interesting too and Burford isn't too far from Watlington, Perhaps this had been the family's route to London. Also, Brampton imported wool, so this may have been another link to Margaret's family. I wonder where John Beamond who married Emma fitted in.

From the wills, Robert Kyng the Draper appears to have been another powerful merchant. Several Kyngs seem to have been drapers, who would have been associated with pinners like Richard or William Beaumont. Most biographies of Oliver King don't specify exactly who his father was. Is there any certainty as to who his father actually was? Also, is there a definite link between the Bonauntre and Beamond/Beaumont families?

Nico

nico11238@...

#153

Thanks Hilary for the reminder. I remember about Nedeham now. Yes,they were indeed a wealthy lot and they did have the resources to spirit someone away. When I read the article yesterday, the references to Bergen op Zoom and the wool markets brought to mind Warbeck's confession.

If you needed to make Richard of Shrewsbury anonymous, training him to be a wool merchant wouldn't be a bad option. It would provide him with an income that could keep him in style. Brampton was a wool merchant and it appears that his wife's family also had contacts in the trade. The confession has young Warbeck working at the Mart of Antwerp and Bergen op Zoom, then he gets sick and is sent to recuperate at a skinner's house 'beside the house of the English nation.' I have always thought it strange that a boy whose parents lived in Tournai wouldn't be just sent home. This story does sound like English merchants were keeping an eye on him in a way that they wouldn't with an ordinary boy. Eventually, he turns up working for a merchant near Brampton's house. Warbeck's confession has always had too many coincidences for me, but when you consider the wealth and power that some of these merchants had, it does fall into place in another context, which Henry Tudor's official version is desperate to obscure. Nico

Doug Stamate

#161

Nico,

Just a thought, but perhaps a reason some of those you’ve discovered weren’t members of that Fraternity was – money? There’d be dues, wouldn’t there? As well as “contributions” requested through-out the year, so perhaps some of these people just didn’t have the where-with-all te meet the obligations membership would entail?

Doug

(This thought has nothing to due with the fact the monthly bills will start arriving tomorrow!)

Nico wrote:

“Hi Hilary,
William and Elizabeth are the last Beaumont (various spellings). William could be the son of Richard Beaumond the Pinner, and most likely a cousin of Thomas Beaumont and Margaret Brampton. I do suspect that their parents are Emma and John Beaumont, and that Emma was John's second wife, as there is a listing for 'Agnes Beamonte' who died in 1458-9. Emma joined in 1460, probably shortly after she married John. The only family beneficiaries in Thomas Beaumont's will were Emma Spayne, Margaret Brampton and her children, so that suggests that is the extent of his immediate family.
Going through the lists of name, the St. Nicholas Fraternity does appear to be a prestigious organization, as there are a lot of names of prestigious people. In addition to the York family, Margaret Beaufort also joined in the early 1480s. Possibly it was open only to more senior clerks and scriveners. I didn't find any Spaynes or Bonauntres although Ralph and Robert Spayne as well as Peter and Richard Bonauntre are recorded as being scriveners. I couldn't find Thomas or any Wilfords, but there were many King/Kyngs and several Cosyns.
I will have a look through the wills for the King family again. When I last looked most were from the city of London, but I do recall a group from further West.”

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Doug Stamate

#166

Hilary,

I wonder if EW would consider one of her sons being “apprenticed” to one of those wealthier merchants/traders as “demeaning”?

Of course, and presuming Richard remained on the throne, there’d be nothing to prevent “Richard Fitzedward” from providing various services to his country via his skills as a trader/merchant/information-gatherer and thus working his way up to, say, a knighthood, would there? And, regardless of his illegitimacy, he’d still be the King’s nephew, with all that meant.

Doug

Hilary wrote:

“Hi Nico, I forgot to say, if ever there was the need to spirit someone away, these people had the funds, the contacts and wherewithal to do it, didn't they?”

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

Hilary Jones

#168

Hi Doug, I see it somewhat differently.

I think there is every chance that young Richard was still in this country at the time of Bosworth, probably either at a country estate (could be Yorkshire like EOY and Warwick) or even in London. These people have the contacts both here and abroad to ensure an 'escape' before HT can undertake any searches. They also have the money to prop up whatever lifestyle they/he may chose and actually to go on supporting that, and if necessarily moving him around, for life. He's probably richer being propped up by them than being king! They have numerous foreign networks, they can travel and pass on money under the guise of trade. It's far easier than say Lovell taking him into Scotland. And one day when HT is dead ......!!

As for EW, she'd have to be glad he was alive.H

Show quoted text

On Friday, 1 November 2019, 14:24:38 GMT, Doug Stamate <destama@...> wrote:

Hilary,

I wonder if EW would consider one of her sons being “apprenticed” to one of those wealthier merchants/traders as “demeaning”?

Of course, and presuming Richard remained on the throne, there’d be nothing to prevent “Richard Fitzedward” from providing various services to his country via his skills as a trader/merchant/information-gatherer and thus working his way up to, say, a knighthood, would there? And, regardless of his illegitimacy, he’d still be the King’s nephew, with all that meant.

Doug

Hilary wrote:

“Hi Nico, I forgot to say, if ever there was the need to spirit someone away, these people had the funds, the contacts and wherewithal to do it, didn't they?”

--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

nico11238@...

#170

Doug wrote:Just a thought, but perhaps a reason some of those you’ve discovered weren’t members of that Fraternity was – money? There’d be dues, wouldn’t there? As well as “contributions” requested through-out the year, so perhaps some of these people just didn’t have the where-with-all the meet the obligations membership would entail?

Hi Doug,

I think it was probably like that. The fraternity appears to be a rather exclusive club and royalty and the nobility tend not to join things that are a free for all. From what I understand the donations (or at least some of them) were for prayers said for the donor and the family, but I would imagine it was it was a medieval version of one of those fancy clubs in Mayfair where you pay a lot of money to hang out with the 'right sort.'

Nico