Topics

My experience with the ham load by W3DJS

Al Massaro
 

Terry, you are absolutely correct when you state,  " that you know a little about what you're saying or some of the terms ", I do and I was using the sudo and apt as examples of how little some Hams may actually know. Most Hams today did not grow up active with computers, they either pursued an interest in them or had them thrust upon them. They became radio operators, not computer programmers. I also agree in a small sense with your statement "A problem with documentation is most windows users won't read it." However if a Ham is interested in using a program they will go to the users guide, or come to a forum such as this. I do not know the average age of the American Ham today, but I do believe that quite a few of them are well beyond the learn Linux age, and would like to stay in the radio game as long as possible. it is our responsibility as fellow Hams to assist them wherever we can is what I am trying to delicately say.
I will now shut up as " you know a little about what you're saying or some of the terms but not enough to comment.
AL M
KF5SMH

Terry L. Morris
 

Al, thanks for the response. Your explanation cleared the air a bit. FYI, I am a 74 years old computer geek, mostly self taught from the early days of 8 bit with some college programming classes thrown when IBM punch cards represented one line of code. I was happy as a General Class for 31 years until several peers kept egging me on to take the Extra Class. The Extra Class was never a problem. Even though taking the test for fun and passing the test twice didn't count I was still troubled with the Advanced test. With the new licensing structure that excluded Novice and Advanced License Classes those peers continued bother me until I gave in and studied the test pool and passed. I've been an Extra Class for almost 2 years. I began hosting a Linux for Hams group 5 years ago. Like CW, I host that group too, there is a minority of Hams in my club that have an interest in Linux. Primarily due to the Raspberry Pi. Two years ago I urged my group to focus our Linux attentions on the use of Raspberry Pi's for amateur radio and learn Linux at the same time. I remember that the first couple of meetings more people showed up than seats were available. Attendance has slacked off over time. The people that want to learn Linux and the applications that run on Linux still come to the group, but they need to be spoon fed. Not too much command line. I print out handouts. It seems the younger generation are not apt to take notes. To ensure they are reading the handout material each person is required to read a few sentences. Without this exercise nothing gets read. I can't explain why the younger generation is reluctant to take notes or read, but its been my experience that they are.
Best 72 DE KB8AMZ, Terry

Ray Wells
 

So that nobody makes an incorrect assumption about what follows, I'm not taking sides, I'm not criticising anybody, and I'm not criticising Windows.

As someone who started learning Linux in 1994 before I had internet available to search for help, and living in a rural location with the nearest book shop 300km away, I know how frustrating it can be to learn Linux. The learning curve is more like a brick wall than a curve! And, BTW, after 25 years this 73 year old doesn't consider himself proficient in Linux, but I can sort out most problems that arise. I don't for a single moment regret the pain I went through trying to learn Linux. Did using command line with cp/m and DOS in the days before the GUI help? Undoubtedly, and it even helped (helps) in Windows where some functions must be handled from the "cmd" prompt. I have not had any formal training in computers. I am 100% self-taught, and I've asked a lot of (sometimes stupid) questions along the way.

I believe it pays to get a good beginner's book like "Linux for Dummies" because it handles learning in a simple, lighthearted way, and it pays to forget what you know about the "Window's way". Apart from some Windows "cmd" tools like PING, and an \ETC directory in the \Windows\System directory, Windows has little (nothing?) else in common with Linux. 
I suggest a book like Linux for Dummies because so much Linux documentation seems to ignore the vital first few steps on the learning ladder and plunges into complex, irrelevant examples that only serve to confuse the newcomer, and the Linux man pages, as prolific as they are, seem to me to be written BY people who don't need them, FOR people who don't need them. I appreciate that a lot of good people put a lot of time into writing man pages but they are not intuitive. It seems that Linux for Dummies still exists according to - https://www.dummies.com/computers/operating-systems/linux/linux-for-dummies-cheat-sheet/ - and the list of commands on that page might help some newcomers to Linux.

And when searching online for help for a specific problem, be aware that different distributions may handle some things in a different way so that the "surefire fix" you're reading may not work for your distro or in your circumstances. It can and does happen that way.

How is this relevant to the title you ask? Users are having difficulty with command line instructions associated with the title, and I want to encourage those individuals to not give up, no matter how difficult the road is at times. Slowly, things will gel, things will make sense, and you'll make progress. I encourage you to first try to find the answers by yourself, but I also encourage you to ask questions in places like this when you fail to get the answers you need. Finally, I encourage those more knowledgeable to be more understanding when replying to newcomers who don't use correct terminology when asking questions. You were probably in their shoes at some point in time.

Written in the spirit of ham radio.

Ray vk2tv
Licensed for 50 years.


On 5/12/19 4:38 am, Terry L. Morris wrote:
Al, thanks for the response. Your explanation cleared the air a bit. FYI, I am a 74 years old computer geek, mostly self taught from the early days of 8 bit with some college programming classes thrown when IBM punch cards represented one line of code. I was happy as a General Class for 31 years until several peers kept egging me on to take the Extra Class. The Extra Class was never a problem. Even though taking the test for fun and passing the test twice didn't count I was still troubled with the Advanced test. With the new licensing structure that excluded Novice and Advanced License Classes those peers continued bother me until I gave in and studied the test pool and passed. I've been an Extra Class for almost 2 years. I began hosting a Linux for Hams group 5 years ago. Like CW, I host that group too, there is a minority of Hams in my club that have an interest in Linux. Primarily due to the Raspberry Pi. Two years ago I urged my group to focus our Linux attentions on the use of Raspberry Pi's for amateur radio and learn Linux at the same time. I remember that the first couple of meetings more people showed up than seats were available. Attendance has slacked off over time. The people that want to learn Linux and the applications that run on Linux still come to the group, but they need to be spoon fed. Not too much command line. I print out handouts. It seems the younger generation are not apt to take notes. To ensure they are reading the handout material each person is required to read a few sentences. Without this exercise nothing gets read. I can't explain why the younger generation is reluctant to take notes or read, but its been my experience that they are.
Best 72 DE KB8AMZ, Terry

Charles Gallo
 

On 2019-12-04 17:20, Ray Wells wrote:


I believe it pays to get a good beginner's book like "Linux for Dummies" because it handles learning in a simple, lighthearted way, and it pays to forget what you know about the "Window's way". Apart from some Windows "cmd" tools like PING, and an \ETC directory in the \Windows\System directory, Windows has little (nothing?) else in common with Linux. 

Unless you run WSL

https://itsfoss.com/bash-on-windows/

;)



--  
Charles Gallo
http://www.thegallos.com

Eric
 

Systemd, or not, makes yet another issue that determines the solution that works.


Eric

isisdave@...
 

I'm another oldie-but-goodie, 70+ years, whose first exposure to Unix was on PDP-9, -11, and -15s in the early 70s. I've spent most of my professional life in the Windows world with only occasional (and not recent!) jaunts back to -ix-land, but can still farble around in Linux when necessary, to a point.

Specifically, THIS point: An awful lot of Linux online advice sites seem to make the assumption that the petitioner has a LOT more background than he probably has. And responses there are likely to omit consideration of prerequisites, probably because they are so well integrated into the responding brain that it doesn't need to consider them.  

Of course the same thing is probably true of Windows advice sites ....

So when offering advice to newbies who can barely find the keyboard, please take a moment or three to be more verbose than you think necessary!

Thanks so much

Dave KF6XA

Marty Hartwell
 

Sorry to add here but I Terry may not have much of a sense of humor. It was fairly obvious

to me that what Terry is talking about was intentional misdirection for humors sake. Oh well.

The tone of of Terry's post here is more demeaning than helpful in my not so humble opinion.


Marty


On 12/4/19 3:20 AM, Terry L. Morris wrote:


It is obvious from your rhetoric that you know a little about what you're saying or some of the terms but not enough to comment. Not sure if you have a problem with Linux command line, the hotspot script, taped archive file system and command line command, or lack of knowledge about compilation times. I suggest that you purchase a book from your local bookstore and read it. Keep a notepad and writing implement next to it to jot notes. I suggest one titles Learn Linux in 24 hours. (Actual time is about a month if you follow the lessons.) You don't decompress a tar with the command sudo apt-get and superuser privileges are not required to open the text editor called nano. You could open a <name-of-archive.tar.gz> with a windows Zip program. A problem with documentation is most windows users won't read it. They have been accustomed to "Point and Click" and reading how something functions requires too much effort. Like "If at all possible when things like this come along if someone could just type the commands in sequential order, where the average Ham could follow and be successful that would be a godsend." Before Linux, there was minix and Unix. Then DOS followed by GEOS, Graphical Evironment Operating System on Commodore computers. Then along comes Windows and a few years later the linux kernel that developed into a command line operating system. Around 1999 some smart programmers developed a graphical user interface, front end, for the Linux operating system. Most of today's Linux users are converts from Windows. I would venture to guess that most of us learned about Linux by reading and then performing what we read on our computers. You don't learn Linux overnight. It requires practice of use.

Good Luck.

 

 

Mike - KD6BOS
 

I have been trying for hours to get a ssh or vnc connection on iphone or even laptop. I am running on a pi4 w/buster. I am able to get it to switch from wifi to AP and AP ssid shows on phone and laptop. However laptop unable to connect to hotspot and iphone does connect but I cant connect to pi using IP.

Bo W4GHV
 

Hey, that's the way ALL my computer science profs tried to teach.  And at blazing speeds too.
When I started teaching the MC6800 in the 70's  I did it RIGHT., ow & easy.  ( whoops my opinion), but true/accurate.

I was known to be the FIRST student brave enough to ask a question.
Once I stated on the first day, "I feel I'm in the second semester of this two semester course".  It took the prof down a notch for us.


--
73, Bo W4GHV since '54