Date   
Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Don Hill AA5AU
 

Yes! I just received another email today from a new ham, also licensed in 2017, that said he did only FT modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup but now plans to do RTTY. So we just don't know how many new RTTY contesters we will get that come from the FT modes.

 

Don AA5AU

 

From: RTTY@groups.io [mailto:RTTY@groups.io] On Behalf Of Phil Snyder
Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 9:15 AM
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: Re: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

 

So Don, are you saying the FT modes are "gateway" modes? 🤔😊

Thanks for the RU q's from LA this weekend!

Phil
N9LAH


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: aa5au@...
To: RTTY@groups.io
Sent: 2020-01-06 8:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Well said and I have to agree. When FT8 first came out I thought it would be "fun" to use it as a contest mode. Basically that is what we used it for during the ARRL Grid Chase in 2018. That whole year was like one big FT8 contest.

 

I was one, among several others, who pushed to get FT8 (and now FT4) into contests. I helped create the FT8 Roundup in 2018 and last month the FT Roundup. I thought it would be fun to have FT-only contests. I realize now that it doesn't come close to the fun I have in RTTY contesting. But I don't regret having FT contesting. I'm sure lots of people enjoy it more than I do.

 

The upside is that it has brought new operators into the contest fold and I think that's a good thing. Here's a good example. The winner of the 2018 FT8 Roundup was Ron, WV4P. Ron was first licensed in June 2017 and is new to contesting. This past weekend I saw Ron all over the place on RTTY. His 3830 post shows 1300 RTTY QSOs and no FT QSOs. Not sure that's correct but we now have a new RTTY contester in the ranks.

 

Don AA5AU

 

From: RTTY@groups.io [mailto:RTTY@groups.io] On Behalf Of Max NG7M
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 10:10 PM
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

 

When I compare 20 hours of operating in the WW Digi contest primarily running FT4 (yes I gave it an honest good old college try and made 579 QSOs in those grinding painful 20 hours) to the 12 hours (800 Q's in 12 hours) I put into the Roundup only running RTTY.  I'm not sure how I can even compare the two experiences.  I still kind of enjoyed the WW Digi because I knew everyone else was slugging out the same grinding experience running the same modes, locked into a universe of 7.5 or 15 second TX/RX timings synchronized across all stations.  But the 12 hours in the Roundup only running RTTY was simply orders of magnitude more enjoyable and fun in comparison.

I say we keep trying out new digital modes along side RTTY, maybe something better will come along that fits into the the contesting mold and allows for more rate and fun.  But as it stands now.. and we all concede that the FT modes are incredible weak signal modes (they are not low power modes) and they excel at what they were designed to do.  However, they were never designed for contesting exchanges... clearly.  It's a game of trading weak signal capabilities against long transmission times with redundancy.  I could be wrong but I think contesters want to use their radios and be in control of when and when not to transmit and be able to tune our exchanges and tweak things based on our station setup.  FT modes take a of that away... I personally don't find it fun as a contest mode at all.  It's pretty clear that RTTY isn't going away any time soon.

So let's see what happens... maybe it (FT modes) will bring new folks to the contesting world and introduce them to other possibilities with other modes.  Especially when they see scores posted on 3830. And the fact that one FT mode QSO puts you in an unlimited category is pretty serendipitous, where it's a multi channel decoder setup.  The decades old mode RTTY  with modern software decoders kicks it's fanny for rate and fun in my book.  So I see some irony in that fact... it's slower (FT modes)... it's not as fun and it forces an an unlimited entry by anyone that uses it???   You can't even tune around with the dial on your VFO?  Camp out on 3-4khz of bandwidth and sch-log it out at a whopping max rate of maybe 40 Q's per hour if you are lucky? (that was my experience in the WW Digi)  The theoretical rate should be much better... it wasn't for me.

So for now, I'll get much more excited to run stations with RTTY than I ever will with the FT modes (actually CW tops RTTY for to be honest by a mile for the fun factor but I digress).  Again, let's see what happens and at the same time, try new things out and continue to kick the tires with new modes like the FT modes.  Why not.  

Max NG7M

 

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Tim Shoppa
 

I actually enjoy piecing together callsigns and serial numbers out of the noise and QRM in RTTY.

So I would be opposed to inventing an error-correcting mode. It would probably be just as low-productivity as FT4/FT8.

Tim N3QE

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Ron K0IDT
 

I got caught during the transition from RTTY DXCC to Digital for my 40m RTTY DXCC. Stuck at 99 for a long time and when I finally got #100 my submission just happened to be when the switch to Digital was made. No numbered RTTY cert,
no fun, no longer a member.

I didn't play in this last RR as I was hoping to. I've been a little distracted with a certain project some of you are aware of and my heart just wasn't in it after the last minute flurry of activity.

73
Ron K0IDT

Re: Poll about RTTY awarding in DXCC #poll

Peter N5UWY
 

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 6:00 PM Rag LB-Three-RE Stein-Roar
<@LB3RE> wrote:

A new poll has been created:

Should ARRL reverse DXCC and LOTW award programme to have own RTTY mode award, like it was before it were merged into ONE digital award?
That horse has left the barn. I finally had enough credits to qualify
for DXCC RTTY (#2887) in July of 2011. This was right at the
transition. My certificate came with "DIGITAL" and I asked them to
please send me one that said "RTTY" ... and they did. Doubt they'd
still do that, but who knows?

The time to make a fuss was a decade ago.

--
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Steve Bookout, NR4M
 

In recent years, it doesn’t look like the ARRL has not done anything right. 
Sure glad they always check with the membership to see what their feelings are. 
It’s just this kind of crap is the reason I haven’t renew my membership. It’s not that they’re not doing what I want but it seems like you’re doing things contrary to the wishes of almost everyone.

73 de Steve NR4M

On Jan 6, 2020, at 6:46 PM, Rag LB-Three-RE Stein-Roar <post@...> wrote:

ARRL ruins  the RTTY society Contests 🤬🤬 


ARRL : 

1th Removed RTTY from LOTW & DXCC Awards, whitout asking members or IARU


2nd Removed main RTTY mode contest, with mixing other main modes as FT4/FT8 


Should vote against it and reverse it all! 


Better leave ARRL & IARU !!! As they dont follow their values members choice of mode!!! 


Many of us hunted RTTY dxcc award, and it were deleted in ONE single shot....


What next ? FT4 into CQ WW CW????? 😡😡😡


Best Regards,
Stein-Roar Brobakken
LB3RE K3RAG 
Skype: lb3re.rag

6. jan. 2020 kl. 20:48 skrev Jeff AC0C <keepwalking188@...>:



I hope this is the case.  It would blow my mind if RTTY contesting grows thanks to FTx guys wanting something more competitivie and interactive.  Definitely would not have predicted that - should it come to pass.  Hope so!  My dream is that the RTTY RU would have about 2x the participation level it has now.  Rates on the 2nd day are always pretty slow especially in the afternoon.

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 1/6/20 9:17 AM, Phil Snyder wrote:
So Don, are you saying the FT modes are "gateway" modes? 🤔😊

Thanks for the RU q's from LA this weekend!

Phil
N9LAH


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: aa5au@...
To: RTTY@groups.io
Sent: 2020-01-06 8:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Well said and I have to agree. When FT8 first came out I thought it would be "fun" to use it as a contest mode. Basically that is what we used it for during the ARRL Grid Chase in 2018. That whole year was like one big FT8 contest.

 

I was one, among several others, who pushed to get FT8 (and now FT4) into contests. I helped create the FT8 Roundup in 2018 and last month the FT Roundup. I thought it would be fun to have FT-only contests. I realize now that it doesn't come close to the fun I have in RTTY contesting. But I don't regret having FT contesting. I'm sure lots of people enjoy it more than I do.

 

The upside is that it has brought new operators into the contest fold and I think that's a good thing. Here's a good example. The winner of the 2018 FT8 Roundup was Ron, WV4P. Ron was first licensed in June 2017 and is new to contesting. This past weekend I saw Ron all over the place on RTTY. His 3830 post shows 1300 RTTY QSOs and no FT QSOs. Not sure that's correct but we now have a new RTTY contester in the ranks.

 

Don AA5AU

 

From: RTTY@groups.io [mailto:RTTY@groups.io] On Behalf Of Max NG7M
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 10:10 PM
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

 

When I compare 20 hours of operating in the WW Digi contest primarily running FT4 (yes I gave it an honest good old college try and made 579 QSOs in those grinding painful 20 hours) to the 12 hours (800 Q's in 12 hours) I put into the Roundup only running RTTY.  I'm not sure how I can even compare the two experiences.  I still kind of enjoyed the WW Digi because I knew everyone else was slugging out the same grinding experience running the same modes, locked into a universe of 7.5 or 15 second TX/RX timings synchronized across all stations.  But the 12 hours in the Roundup only running RTTY was simply orders of magnitude more enjoyable and fun in comparison.

I say we keep trying out new digital modes along side RTTY, maybe something better will come along that fits into the the contesting mold and allows for more rate and fun.  But as it stands now.. and we all concede that the FT modes are incredible weak signal modes (they are not low power modes) and they excel at what they were designed to do.  However, they were never designed for contesting exchanges... clearly.  It's a game of trading weak signal capabilities against long transmission times with redundancy.  I could be wrong but I think contesters want to use their radios and be in control of when and when not to transmit and be able to tune our exchanges and tweak things based on our station setup.  FT modes take a of that away... I personally don't find it fun as a contest mode at all.  It's pretty clear that RTTY isn't going away any time soon.

So let's see what happens... maybe it (FT modes) will bring new folks to the contesting world and introduce them to other possibilities with other modes.  Especially when they see scores posted on 3830. And the fact that one FT mode QSO puts you in an unlimited category is pretty serendipitous, where it's a multi channel decoder setup.  The decades old mode RTTY  with modern software decoders kicks it's fanny for rate and fun in my book.  So I see some irony in that fact... it's slower (FT modes)... it's not as fun and it forces an an unlimited entry by anyone that uses it???   You can't even tune around with the dial on your VFO?  Camp out on 3-4khz of bandwidth and sch-log it out at a whopping max rate of maybe 40 Q's per hour if you are lucky? (that was my experience in the WW Digi)  The theoretical rate should be much better... it wasn't for me.

So for now, I'll get much more excited to run stations with RTTY than I ever will with the FT modes (actually CW tops RTTY for to be honest by a mile for the fun factor but I digress).  Again, let's see what happens and at the same time, try new things out and continue to kick the tires with new modes like the FT modes.  Why not.  

Max NG7M



Poll about RTTY awarding in DXCC #poll

Rag LB-Three-RE Stein-Roar
 

Should ARRL reverse DXCC and LOTW award programme to have own RTTY mode award, like it was before it were merged into ONE digital award?

Before we had:
- CW
- Phone
- RTTY 

Just add:
- Digi like PSK/FT/JT/MSK modes as own!!

Many people lost their RTTY DXCC with a pen stroke by ARRL, and not asked RTTY society!!!

Results

See Who Responded

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Rag LB-Three-RE Stein-Roar
 

ARRL ruins  the RTTY society Contests 🤬🤬 


ARRL : 

1th Removed RTTY from LOTW & DXCC Awards, whitout asking members or IARU


2nd Removed main RTTY mode contest, with mixing other main modes as FT4/FT8 


Should vote against it and reverse it all! 


Better leave ARRL & IARU !!! As they dont follow their values members choice of mode!!! 


Many of us hunted RTTY dxcc award, and it were deleted in ONE single shot....


What next ? FT4 into CQ WW CW????? 😡😡😡


Best Regards,
Stein-Roar Brobakken
post@...
LB3RE K3RAG 
Skype: lb3re.rag

6. jan. 2020 kl. 20:48 skrev Jeff AC0C <keepwalking188@...>:



I hope this is the case.  It would blow my mind if RTTY contesting grows thanks to FTx guys wanting something more competitivie and interactive.  Definitely would not have predicted that - should it come to pass.  Hope so!  My dream is that the RTTY RU would have about 2x the participation level it has now.  Rates on the 2nd day are always pretty slow especially in the afternoon.

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 1/6/20 9:17 AM, Phil Snyder wrote:
So Don, are you saying the FT modes are "gateway" modes? 🤔😊

Thanks for the RU q's from LA this weekend!

Phil
N9LAH


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: aa5au@...
To: RTTY@groups.io
Sent: 2020-01-06 8:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Well said and I have to agree. When FT8 first came out I thought it would be "fun" to use it as a contest mode. Basically that is what we used it for during the ARRL Grid Chase in 2018. That whole year was like one big FT8 contest.

 

I was one, among several others, who pushed to get FT8 (and now FT4) into contests. I helped create the FT8 Roundup in 2018 and last month the FT Roundup. I thought it would be fun to have FT-only contests. I realize now that it doesn't come close to the fun I have in RTTY contesting. But I don't regret having FT contesting. I'm sure lots of people enjoy it more than I do.

 

The upside is that it has brought new operators into the contest fold and I think that's a good thing. Here's a good example. The winner of the 2018 FT8 Roundup was Ron, WV4P. Ron was first licensed in June 2017 and is new to contesting. This past weekend I saw Ron all over the place on RTTY. His 3830 post shows 1300 RTTY QSOs and no FT QSOs. Not sure that's correct but we now have a new RTTY contester in the ranks.

 

Don AA5AU

 

From: RTTY@groups.io [mailto:RTTY@groups.io] On Behalf Of Max NG7M
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 10:10 PM
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

 

When I compare 20 hours of operating in the WW Digi contest primarily running FT4 (yes I gave it an honest good old college try and made 579 QSOs in those grinding painful 20 hours) to the 12 hours (800 Q's in 12 hours) I put into the Roundup only running RTTY.  I'm not sure how I can even compare the two experiences.  I still kind of enjoyed the WW Digi because I knew everyone else was slugging out the same grinding experience running the same modes, locked into a universe of 7.5 or 15 second TX/RX timings synchronized across all stations.  But the 12 hours in the Roundup only running RTTY was simply orders of magnitude more enjoyable and fun in comparison.

I say we keep trying out new digital modes along side RTTY, maybe something better will come along that fits into the the contesting mold and allows for more rate and fun.  But as it stands now.. and we all concede that the FT modes are incredible weak signal modes (they are not low power modes) and they excel at what they were designed to do.  However, they were never designed for contesting exchanges... clearly.  It's a game of trading weak signal capabilities against long transmission times with redundancy.  I could be wrong but I think contesters want to use their radios and be in control of when and when not to transmit and be able to tune our exchanges and tweak things based on our station setup.  FT modes take a of that away... I personally don't find it fun as a contest mode at all.  It's pretty clear that RTTY isn't going away any time soon.

So let's see what happens... maybe it (FT modes) will bring new folks to the contesting world and introduce them to other possibilities with other modes.  Especially when they see scores posted on 3830. And the fact that one FT mode QSO puts you in an unlimited category is pretty serendipitous, where it's a multi channel decoder setup.  The decades old mode RTTY  with modern software decoders kicks it's fanny for rate and fun in my book.  So I see some irony in that fact... it's slower (FT modes)... it's not as fun and it forces an an unlimited entry by anyone that uses it???   You can't even tune around with the dial on your VFO?  Camp out on 3-4khz of bandwidth and sch-log it out at a whopping max rate of maybe 40 Q's per hour if you are lucky? (that was my experience in the WW Digi)  The theoretical rate should be much better... it wasn't for me.

So for now, I'll get much more excited to run stations with RTTY than I ever will with the FT modes (actually CW tops RTTY for to be honest by a mile for the fun factor but I digress).  Again, let's see what happens and at the same time, try new things out and continue to kick the tires with new modes like the FT modes.  Why not.  

Max NG7M



Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Jamie WW3S
 

How did you work out the timing to prevent transmitting at the same time, being FT is hard coded as to when it switches from tx/rx ?


On Jan 6, 2020, at 4:38 PM, Tom Martin <tmartin@...> wrote:

I have used FT-8 and FT-4 during non-contest periods just to work someone. There are barely any RTTY signals on the bands, unless it's a contest weekend. 
I used FT-4 on the second radio. It was nice not to have to use filters and stubs on that radio. I ran just 80 watts watts on FT-4.

Tom W8JWN

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

jeff stai wk6i
 

First, I will state that I really enjoyed the two recent FT only events, much more than I thought I would. But I agree that we would be richer for keeping the modes in their own events on different weekends. 

I wish I had not given away my well worn ECC text from my SSD days.... there are fairly simple to implement codes that would add bits for one and maybe two bit error correction to a single Baudot character such that your 75 baud idea would work. But whether that would be better than some of things G3YYD is doing in 2tone to "correct" errors is an interesting thing to look into.

73 jeff wk6i


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 2:14 PM Jeff AC0C <keepwalking188@...> wrote:

I wonder if something like a 75 baud RTTY - but with ECC added - so that the net speed is about the same as 45.45 and maybe would be more robust from the ECC.  It's not FT1 but would be a technologically incremental approach to keeping the man in the middle while adding some tech into the mix.

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 1/6/20 2:06 PM, W0MU wrote:
RTTY is where the rate is at until they create FT1.

On 1/6/2020 12:48 PM, Jeff AC0C wrote:

I hope this is the case.  It would blow my mind if RTTY contesting grows thanks to FTx guys wanting something more competitivie and interactive.  Definitely would not have predicted that - should it come to pass.  Hope so!  My dream is that the RTTY RU would have about 2x the participation level it has now.  Rates on the 2nd day are always pretty slow especially in the afternoon.

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 1/6/20 9:17 AM, Phil Snyder wrote:
So Don, are you saying the FT modes are "gateway" modes? 🤔😊

Thanks for the RU q's from LA this weekend!

Phil
N9LAH


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: aa5au@...
To: RTTY@groups.io
Sent: 2020-01-06 8:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Well said and I have to agree. When FT8 first came out I thought it would be "fun" to use it as a contest mode. Basically that is what we used it for during the ARRL Grid Chase in 2018. That whole year was like one big FT8 contest.

 

I was one, among several others, who pushed to get FT8 (and now FT4) into contests. I helped create the FT8 Roundup in 2018 and last month the FT Roundup. I thought it would be fun to have FT-only contests. I realize now that it doesn't come close to the fun I have in RTTY contesting. But I don't regret having FT contesting. I'm sure lots of people enjoy it more than I do.

 

The upside is that it has brought new operators into the contest fold and I think that's a good thing. Here's a good example. The winner of the 2018 FT8 Roundup was Ron, WV4P. Ron was first licensed in June 2017 and is new to contesting. This past weekend I saw Ron all over the place on RTTY. His 3830 post shows 1300 RTTY QSOs and no FT QSOs. Not sure that's correct but we now have a new RTTY contester in the ranks.

 

Don AA5AU

 

From: RTTY@groups.io [mailto:RTTY@groups.io] On Behalf Of Max NG7M
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 10:10 PM
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

 

When I compare 20 hours of operating in the WW Digi contest primarily running FT4 (yes I gave it an honest good old college try and made 579 QSOs in those grinding painful 20 hours) to the 12 hours (800 Q's in 12 hours) I put into the Roundup only running RTTY.  I'm not sure how I can even compare the two experiences.  I still kind of enjoyed the WW Digi because I knew everyone else was slugging out the same grinding experience running the same modes, locked into a universe of 7.5 or 15 second TX/RX timings synchronized across all stations.  But the 12 hours in the Roundup only running RTTY was simply orders of magnitude more enjoyable and fun in comparison.

I say we keep trying out new digital modes along side RTTY, maybe something better will come along that fits into the the contesting mold and allows for more rate and fun.  But as it stands now.. and we all concede that the FT modes are incredible weak signal modes (they are not low power modes) and they excel at what they were designed to do.  However, they were never designed for contesting exchanges... clearly.  It's a game of trading weak signal capabilities against long transmission times with redundancy.  I could be wrong but I think contesters want to use their radios and be in control of when and when not to transmit and be able to tune our exchanges and tweak things based on our station setup.  FT modes take a of that away... I personally don't find it fun as a contest mode at all.  It's pretty clear that RTTY isn't going away any time soon.

So let's see what happens... maybe it (FT modes) will bring new folks to the contesting world and introduce them to other possibilities with other modes.  Especially when they see scores posted on 3830. And the fact that one FT mode QSO puts you in an unlimited category is pretty serendipitous, where it's a multi channel decoder setup.  The decades old mode RTTY  with modern software decoders kicks it's fanny for rate and fun in my book.  So I see some irony in that fact... it's slower (FT modes)... it's not as fun and it forces an an unlimited entry by anyone that uses it???   You can't even tune around with the dial on your VFO?  Camp out on 3-4khz of bandwidth and sch-log it out at a whopping max rate of maybe 40 Q's per hour if you are lucky? (that was my experience in the WW Digi)  The theoretical rate should be much better... it wasn't for me.

So for now, I'll get much more excited to run stations with RTTY than I ever will with the FT modes (actually CW tops RTTY for to be honest by a mile for the fun factor but I digress).  Again, let's see what happens and at the same time, try new things out and continue to kick the tires with new modes like the FT modes.  Why not.  

Max NG7M






--
Jeff Stai ~ WK6I ~ wk6i.jeff@...
RTTY op at W7RN
Twisted Oak Winery ~ http://www.twistedoak.com/

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Jeff AC0C
 

I wonder if something like a 75 baud RTTY - but with ECC added - so that the net speed is about the same as 45.45 and maybe would be more robust from the ECC.  It's not FT1 but would be a technologically incremental approach to keeping the man in the middle while adding some tech into the mix.

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 1/6/20 2:06 PM, W0MU wrote:

RTTY is where the rate is at until they create FT1.

On 1/6/2020 12:48 PM, Jeff AC0C wrote:

I hope this is the case.  It would blow my mind if RTTY contesting grows thanks to FTx guys wanting something more competitivie and interactive.  Definitely would not have predicted that - should it come to pass.  Hope so!  My dream is that the RTTY RU would have about 2x the participation level it has now.  Rates on the 2nd day are always pretty slow especially in the afternoon.

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 1/6/20 9:17 AM, Phil Snyder wrote:
So Don, are you saying the FT modes are "gateway" modes? 🤔😊

Thanks for the RU q's from LA this weekend!

Phil
N9LAH


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: aa5au@...
To: RTTY@groups.io
Sent: 2020-01-06 8:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Well said and I have to agree. When FT8 first came out I thought it would be "fun" to use it as a contest mode. Basically that is what we used it for during the ARRL Grid Chase in 2018. That whole year was like one big FT8 contest.

 

I was one, among several others, who pushed to get FT8 (and now FT4) into contests. I helped create the FT8 Roundup in 2018 and last month the FT Roundup. I thought it would be fun to have FT-only contests. I realize now that it doesn't come close to the fun I have in RTTY contesting. But I don't regret having FT contesting. I'm sure lots of people enjoy it more than I do.

 

The upside is that it has brought new operators into the contest fold and I think that's a good thing. Here's a good example. The winner of the 2018 FT8 Roundup was Ron, WV4P. Ron was first licensed in June 2017 and is new to contesting. This past weekend I saw Ron all over the place on RTTY. His 3830 post shows 1300 RTTY QSOs and no FT QSOs. Not sure that's correct but we now have a new RTTY contester in the ranks.

 

Don AA5AU

 

From: RTTY@groups.io [mailto:RTTY@groups.io] On Behalf Of Max NG7M
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 10:10 PM
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

 

When I compare 20 hours of operating in the WW Digi contest primarily running FT4 (yes I gave it an honest good old college try and made 579 QSOs in those grinding painful 20 hours) to the 12 hours (800 Q's in 12 hours) I put into the Roundup only running RTTY.  I'm not sure how I can even compare the two experiences.  I still kind of enjoyed the WW Digi because I knew everyone else was slugging out the same grinding experience running the same modes, locked into a universe of 7.5 or 15 second TX/RX timings synchronized across all stations.  But the 12 hours in the Roundup only running RTTY was simply orders of magnitude more enjoyable and fun in comparison.

I say we keep trying out new digital modes along side RTTY, maybe something better will come along that fits into the the contesting mold and allows for more rate and fun.  But as it stands now.. and we all concede that the FT modes are incredible weak signal modes (they are not low power modes) and they excel at what they were designed to do.  However, they were never designed for contesting exchanges... clearly.  It's a game of trading weak signal capabilities against long transmission times with redundancy.  I could be wrong but I think contesters want to use their radios and be in control of when and when not to transmit and be able to tune our exchanges and tweak things based on our station setup.  FT modes take a of that away... I personally don't find it fun as a contest mode at all.  It's pretty clear that RTTY isn't going away any time soon.

So let's see what happens... maybe it (FT modes) will bring new folks to the contesting world and introduce them to other possibilities with other modes.  Especially when they see scores posted on 3830. And the fact that one FT mode QSO puts you in an unlimited category is pretty serendipitous, where it's a multi channel decoder setup.  The decades old mode RTTY  with modern software decoders kicks it's fanny for rate and fun in my book.  So I see some irony in that fact... it's slower (FT modes)... it's not as fun and it forces an an unlimited entry by anyone that uses it???   You can't even tune around with the dial on your VFO?  Camp out on 3-4khz of bandwidth and sch-log it out at a whopping max rate of maybe 40 Q's per hour if you are lucky? (that was my experience in the WW Digi)  The theoretical rate should be much better... it wasn't for me.

So for now, I'll get much more excited to run stations with RTTY than I ever will with the FT modes (actually CW tops RTTY for to be honest by a mile for the fun factor but I digress).  Again, let's see what happens and at the same time, try new things out and continue to kick the tires with new modes like the FT modes.  Why not.  

Max NG7M




Re: rtty vs ft8

John Barber
 

No mixed mode contests for me either. That’s why I dropped out of the RSGB data mode contests.

The Roundup has always seemed more like a stitch-up; the 30 hour period is so unfair to some parts of the world. 1 daylight period for some, 2 for others. OK, it’s a US contest J

Make it 24 hours or 48 hours … make it fair to all.

John GW4SKA / GW0A

 

 

 

From: RTTY@groups.io <RTTY@groups.io> On Behalf Of Cort
Sent: 06 January 2020 14:54
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: [RTTY] rtty vs ft8

 

I am going to throw my 2 cents out here about rtty/ft8 and will probably get roasted completely over it! I did not participate in the RU this year as my station will no longer be active in any contest HF or VHF where digi modes are mixed in with normal RTTY/CW/SSB modes. I also will not support financially any DX-pedition that favors ft8/4 over RTTY. If the digi boys want to have contests, that is fine and all good , but keep it to that mode. Nuff said; flame suit on! 73's Cort K4WI

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Tom Martin
 

I have used FT-8 and FT-4 during non-contest periods just to work someone. There are barely any RTTY signals on the bands, unless it's a contest weekend. 
I used FT-4 on the second radio. It was nice not to have to use filters and stubs on that radio. I ran just 80 watts watts on FT-4.

Tom W8JWN

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

W0MU
 

RTTY is where the rate is at until they create FT1.

On 1/6/2020 12:48 PM, Jeff AC0C wrote:

I hope this is the case.  It would blow my mind if RTTY contesting grows thanks to FTx guys wanting something more competitivie and interactive.  Definitely would not have predicted that - should it come to pass.  Hope so!  My dream is that the RTTY RU would have about 2x the participation level it has now.  Rates on the 2nd day are always pretty slow especially in the afternoon.

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 1/6/20 9:17 AM, Phil Snyder wrote:
So Don, are you saying the FT modes are "gateway" modes? 🤔😊

Thanks for the RU q's from LA this weekend!

Phil
N9LAH


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: aa5au@...
To: RTTY@groups.io
Sent: 2020-01-06 8:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Well said and I have to agree. When FT8 first came out I thought it would be "fun" to use it as a contest mode. Basically that is what we used it for during the ARRL Grid Chase in 2018. That whole year was like one big FT8 contest.

 

I was one, among several others, who pushed to get FT8 (and now FT4) into contests. I helped create the FT8 Roundup in 2018 and last month the FT Roundup. I thought it would be fun to have FT-only contests. I realize now that it doesn't come close to the fun I have in RTTY contesting. But I don't regret having FT contesting. I'm sure lots of people enjoy it more than I do.

 

The upside is that it has brought new operators into the contest fold and I think that's a good thing. Here's a good example. The winner of the 2018 FT8 Roundup was Ron, WV4P. Ron was first licensed in June 2017 and is new to contesting. This past weekend I saw Ron all over the place on RTTY. His 3830 post shows 1300 RTTY QSOs and no FT QSOs. Not sure that's correct but we now have a new RTTY contester in the ranks.

 

Don AA5AU

 

From: RTTY@groups.io [mailto:RTTY@groups.io] On Behalf Of Max NG7M
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 10:10 PM
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

 

When I compare 20 hours of operating in the WW Digi contest primarily running FT4 (yes I gave it an honest good old college try and made 579 QSOs in those grinding painful 20 hours) to the 12 hours (800 Q's in 12 hours) I put into the Roundup only running RTTY.  I'm not sure how I can even compare the two experiences.  I still kind of enjoyed the WW Digi because I knew everyone else was slugging out the same grinding experience running the same modes, locked into a universe of 7.5 or 15 second TX/RX timings synchronized across all stations.  But the 12 hours in the Roundup only running RTTY was simply orders of magnitude more enjoyable and fun in comparison.

I say we keep trying out new digital modes along side RTTY, maybe something better will come along that fits into the the contesting mold and allows for more rate and fun.  But as it stands now.. and we all concede that the FT modes are incredible weak signal modes (they are not low power modes) and they excel at what they were designed to do.  However, they were never designed for contesting exchanges... clearly.  It's a game of trading weak signal capabilities against long transmission times with redundancy.  I could be wrong but I think contesters want to use their radios and be in control of when and when not to transmit and be able to tune our exchanges and tweak things based on our station setup.  FT modes take a of that away... I personally don't find it fun as a contest mode at all.  It's pretty clear that RTTY isn't going away any time soon.

So let's see what happens... maybe it (FT modes) will bring new folks to the contesting world and introduce them to other possibilities with other modes.  Especially when they see scores posted on 3830. And the fact that one FT mode QSO puts you in an unlimited category is pretty serendipitous, where it's a multi channel decoder setup.  The decades old mode RTTY  with modern software decoders kicks it's fanny for rate and fun in my book.  So I see some irony in that fact... it's slower (FT modes)... it's not as fun and it forces an an unlimited entry by anyone that uses it???   You can't even tune around with the dial on your VFO?  Camp out on 3-4khz of bandwidth and sch-log it out at a whopping max rate of maybe 40 Q's per hour if you are lucky? (that was my experience in the WW Digi)  The theoretical rate should be much better... it wasn't for me.

So for now, I'll get much more excited to run stations with RTTY than I ever will with the FT modes (actually CW tops RTTY for to be honest by a mile for the fun factor but I digress).  Again, let's see what happens and at the same time, try new things out and continue to kick the tires with new modes like the FT modes.  Why not.  

Max NG7M




Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Jeff AC0C
 

I hope this is the case.  It would blow my mind if RTTY contesting grows thanks to FTx guys wanting something more competitivie and interactive.  Definitely would not have predicted that - should it come to pass.  Hope so!  My dream is that the RTTY RU would have about 2x the participation level it has now.  Rates on the 2nd day are always pretty slow especially in the afternoon.

73/jeff/ac0c
alpha-charlie-zero-charlie
www.ac0c.com


On 1/6/20 9:17 AM, Phil Snyder wrote:

So Don, are you saying the FT modes are "gateway" modes? 🤔😊

Thanks for the RU q's from LA this weekend!

Phil
N9LAH


Sent from Xfinity Connect Application


-----Original Message-----

From: aa5au@...
To: RTTY@groups.io
Sent: 2020-01-06 8:14:01 AM
Subject: Re: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Well said and I have to agree. When FT8 first came out I thought it would be "fun" to use it as a contest mode. Basically that is what we used it for during the ARRL Grid Chase in 2018. That whole year was like one big FT8 contest.

 

I was one, among several others, who pushed to get FT8 (and now FT4) into contests. I helped create the FT8 Roundup in 2018 and last month the FT Roundup. I thought it would be fun to have FT-only contests. I realize now that it doesn't come close to the fun I have in RTTY contesting. But I don't regret having FT contesting. I'm sure lots of people enjoy it more than I do.

 

The upside is that it has brought new operators into the contest fold and I think that's a good thing. Here's a good example. The winner of the 2018 FT8 Roundup was Ron, WV4P. Ron was first licensed in June 2017 and is new to contesting. This past weekend I saw Ron all over the place on RTTY. His 3830 post shows 1300 RTTY QSOs and no FT QSOs. Not sure that's correct but we now have a new RTTY contester in the ranks.

 

Don AA5AU

 

From: RTTY@groups.io [mailto:RTTY@groups.io] On Behalf Of Max NG7M
Sent: Sunday, January 5, 2020 10:10 PM
To: RTTY@groups.io
Subject: [RTTY] More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

 

When I compare 20 hours of operating in the WW Digi contest primarily running FT4 (yes I gave it an honest good old college try and made 579 QSOs in those grinding painful 20 hours) to the 12 hours (800 Q's in 12 hours) I put into the Roundup only running RTTY.  I'm not sure how I can even compare the two experiences.  I still kind of enjoyed the WW Digi because I knew everyone else was slugging out the same grinding experience running the same modes, locked into a universe of 7.5 or 15 second TX/RX timings synchronized across all stations.  But the 12 hours in the Roundup only running RTTY was simply orders of magnitude more enjoyable and fun in comparison.

I say we keep trying out new digital modes along side RTTY, maybe something better will come along that fits into the the contesting mold and allows for more rate and fun.  But as it stands now.. and we all concede that the FT modes are incredible weak signal modes (they are not low power modes) and they excel at what they were designed to do.  However, they were never designed for contesting exchanges... clearly.  It's a game of trading weak signal capabilities against long transmission times with redundancy.  I could be wrong but I think contesters want to use their radios and be in control of when and when not to transmit and be able to tune our exchanges and tweak things based on our station setup.  FT modes take a of that away... I personally don't find it fun as a contest mode at all.  It's pretty clear that RTTY isn't going away any time soon.

So let's see what happens... maybe it (FT modes) will bring new folks to the contesting world and introduce them to other possibilities with other modes.  Especially when they see scores posted on 3830. And the fact that one FT mode QSO puts you in an unlimited category is pretty serendipitous, where it's a multi channel decoder setup.  The decades old mode RTTY  with modern software decoders kicks it's fanny for rate and fun in my book.  So I see some irony in that fact... it's slower (FT modes)... it's not as fun and it forces an an unlimited entry by anyone that uses it???   You can't even tune around with the dial on your VFO?  Camp out on 3-4khz of bandwidth and sch-log it out at a whopping max rate of maybe 40 Q's per hour if you are lucky? (that was my experience in the WW Digi)  The theoretical rate should be much better... it wasn't for me.

So for now, I'll get much more excited to run stations with RTTY than I ever will with the FT modes (actually CW tops RTTY for to be honest by a mile for the fun factor but I digress).  Again, let's see what happens and at the same time, try new things out and continue to kick the tires with new modes like the FT modes.  Why not.  

Max NG7M



Re: rtty vs ft8

W0MU
 

and according to the ARRL any FT/X contacts will put you in the assisted category.  That was certainly not made clear in the rules.

W0MU

On 1/6/2020 12:00 PM, Douglas Dever wrote:
I think this is short sighted. The FT8/FT4 rate isn’t near the RTTY QSO rate. (For a number of reasons - slower data transfer, chuckleheads QRMing everyone because they refuse to spread out, etc.). As a result I see a couple of things:  

1) RTTY contesters are not spending a lot of time on FT. (But it’s a way to go get a couple points when you’re slow.)

2) FT fanboys are starting to play with RTTY because they are getting smoked in the scores. 

This actually is a good thing for RTTY, not a bad thing. 

-doug
73 de AB8M


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:53 AM Cort <k4wi@...> wrote:
I am going to throw my 2 cents out here about rtty/ft8 and will probably get roasted completely over it! I did not participate in the RU this year as my station will no longer be active in any contest HF or VHF where digi modes are mixed in with normal RTTY/CW/SSB modes. I also will not support financially any DX-pedition that favors ft8/4 over RTTY. If the digi boys want to have contests, that is fine and all good , but keep it to that mode. Nuff said; flame suit on! 73's Cort K4WI

Re: rtty vs ft8

W0MU
 

So you punished yourself. There was plenty of fun to be had on whatever mode.  Weird reason to not play in the contest.

On 1/6/2020 8:04 AM, Julio VE3FH via Groups.Io wrote:
You are not alone Cort, I did not participate in this years RU for the very same reason.

I find it hard to swallow and rather laughable the argument that FT-whatever brings new blood to contesting, the way I see is the other way around by driving long-time once hard-core contesters away.

Happy New Year!

Julio VE3FH


On Monday, January 6, 2020, 9:53:34 a.m. EST, Cort <k4wi@...> wrote:


I am going to throw my 2 cents out here about rtty/ft8 and will probably get roasted completely over it! I did not participate in the RU this year as my station will no longer be active in any contest HF or VHF where digi modes are mixed in with normal RTTY/CW/SSB modes. I also will not support financially any DX-pedition that favors ft8/4 over RTTY. If the digi boys want to have contests, that is fine and all good , but keep it to that mode. Nuff said; flame suit on! 73's Cort K4WI

Re: Baudot is dead

Jamie WW3S
 

On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 03:54 AM, Roger Cooke wrote:
We ( I) are talking ourselves into a downward spiral if we are not careful! How about making a 2020 - new decade - resolution to reverse this situation? I want to see the ARRL reverse their bad decision to dispose of the RTTY DXCC. I am not going to apply for a "digital" one, not interested!

contact your DXAC rep, and copy your director, make it known you support returning the DXCC RTTY award to RTTY only, and create a new award for FT whatever and all the other stuff

Re: rtty vs ft8

Douglas Dever
 

I think this is short sighted. The FT8/FT4 rate isn’t near the RTTY QSO rate. (For a number of reasons - slower data transfer, chuckleheads QRMing everyone because they refuse to spread out, etc.). As a result I see a couple of things:  

1) RTTY contesters are not spending a lot of time on FT. (But it’s a way to go get a couple points when you’re slow.)

2) FT fanboys are starting to play with RTTY because they are getting smoked in the scores. 

This actually is a good thing for RTTY, not a bad thing. 

-doug
73 de AB8M


On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 9:53 AM Cort <k4wi@...> wrote:
I am going to throw my 2 cents out here about rtty/ft8 and will probably get roasted completely over it! I did not participate in the RU this year as my station will no longer be active in any contest HF or VHF where digi modes are mixed in with normal RTTY/CW/SSB modes. I also will not support financially any DX-pedition that favors ft8/4 over RTTY. If the digi boys want to have contests, that is fine and all good , but keep it to that mode. Nuff said; flame suit on! 73's Cort K4WI

Re: rtty vs ft8

Jamie WW3S
 

You guys can still participate, just don’t use FT whatever.....I’d have to check my logs to be certain, but I think rtty participation is up since they added the ft modes. I’ve had some great runs and scores the last couple of years, despite band conditions....don’t let the naysayers get you down, get on and operate you may be surprised....


On Jan 6, 2020, at 10:04 AM, Julio VE3FH via Groups.Io <ve3fh@...> wrote:


You are not alone Cort, I did not participate in this years RU for the very same reason.

I find it hard to swallow and rather laughable the argument that FT-whatever brings new blood to contesting, the way I see is the other way around by driving long-time once hard-core contesters away.

Happy New Year!

Julio VE3FH


On Monday, January 6, 2020, 9:53:34 a.m. EST, Cort <k4wi@...> wrote:


I am going to throw my 2 cents out here about rtty/ft8 and will probably get roasted completely over it! I did not participate in the RU this year as my station will no longer be active in any contest HF or VHF where digi modes are mixed in with normal RTTY/CW/SSB modes. I also will not support financially any DX-pedition that favors ft8/4 over RTTY. If the digi boys want to have contests, that is fine and all good , but keep it to that mode. Nuff said; flame suit on! 73's Cort K4WI

Re: More Musings on RTTY and the FT Modes in the ARRL RTTY Roundup

Jay WS7I
 

It could be as automatic but the author doesn't want it to be.  There is stacking with certain variations but sadly they are no longer
very available. 

On 1/6/2020 9:35 AM, Dany VE2EBK wrote:
In my case, I wanted to QSY to FT modes to get some multis. I quickly realized that few or no VE2 had operated in FT modes and that many stations needed the multi. The 10-15 minute QSY became 40-45 minutes each time.

Beliefs that WSJT-X is fully automatic. It's not as automatic as that. There is no Digital Stacking with WSJT-X ! Enable TX
button become very popular . On the other hand, knowing very well that I would not win in any class, I stayed to give points. I have a lot of fun.

73 de Dany VE2EBK