Date   

Railspot Rarity #15

Dennis Hogan
 

Memphis, Paris & Gulf Railroad Co: "The Diamond Route"

In 1910 it operated 41 miles from Murfreesboro to Ashdown with
3 branches: Saline River, Little River, and Dodson.

The map that year in the Official Railway Guide showed planned
extensions to Clarksville and Greenville TX and another to Little Rock
all the way to Memphis.  In addition there were planned branches to
Caddo Gap, Hope, and Arkadelphia.

Ashdown was quite a busy railroad hub.

Now you know.

[ORG 1910]


Re: Railspot Rarity #13

Dennis Hogan
 

Interesting, Bart!
I'll see if I can dig up other Louisiana roads that operated like this one.


Re: Railspot Rarity #13

Barton Jennings
 

Louisiana Central Railroad Co.
This was a series of logging lines that were owned and operated by the W. R. Pickering Lumber Company. It was set up as a common carrier to obtain a share of the line haul revenue, a common practice at the time. However, the many Tap Line Cases held by the Interstate Commerce Commission, and then reviewed with some changes by the U.S. Supreme Court, eliminated some of them as railroads, and established the share of the line haul rate for others.

The Tap Line Case reports make interesting reading. This on is posted on the Texas Transportation Archive, but the full original report is also available through several sources that publish the ICC reports.

Bart Jennings



From: "sunsetexpress" <denmeg_hogan@...>
To: "RS-TALON" <RS-TALON@groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 6:23:43 PM
Subject: [Railspot] Railspot Rarity #13

In 1910. Louisiana Central Railroad Co. operated 3 divisions:
1) Southern Division--30 miles between Pickering and Peterton.
2) Central Division--25 miles between Pickering and Somers
3) Northern Division--21 miles between Barham and Rock.

I have noticed other Louisiana shortline railroads that had multiple divisions
some of which do not physically connect with any of the others.

Now you know .

[ORG 1910]


Railspot Rarity #14

Dennis Hogan
 
Edited

Oklahoma Central Railway Co. operated a respectable 129.4 miles of line
from Lehigh to Chickasha.  Some of the intermediate stations were Tupelo,
Ada, Byars, Stratford, and Purcell. 
The route was primarily constructed to transport coal from the mines at Lehigh
to Purcell in order to service 
steam locomotives on the Santa Fe, which maintained a division point at that location.

Stratford, the Peach Capital Of Oklahoma, still has its depot on the north outskirts
of town.  Relocated, of course.

Now you know.

[ORG 1910]


Railspot Rarity #13

Dennis Hogan
 

In 1910. Louisiana Central Railroad Co. operated 3 divisions:
1) Southern Division--30 miles between Pickering and Peterton.
2) Central Division--25 miles between Pickering and Somers
3) Northern Division--21 miles between Barham and Rock.

I have noticed other Louisiana shortline railroads that had multiple divisions
some of which do not physically connect with any of the others.

Now you know .

[ORG 1910]


Re: ARKANSAS & CHOCTAW RAILROAD

Barton Jennings
 

I have dozens of newspaper articles about the Arkansas & Choctaw in my files. Here are the basics....

Arkansas & Choctaw Railway organized under the general laws of Arkansas, August 31, 1895.
The company proposes to build and operate a road from Ashdown, Little River County, on the Texarkana and Fort Smith railroad, in a westerly direction into and through the Choctaw Nation, a distance of seventy miles. By early 1896, Congress approved the construction across Indian Territory.
The road will be operated by the Cincinnati Coal and Coke Company.
Arkansas & Choctaw completed 16 miles from Arden to Choctaw City, Arkansas, in November 1898.
The Arkansas & Choctaw began passenger service on July 3, 1901, between Ashdown, Arkansas and Arkinda, Arkansas.
Arkansas & Choctaw awarded a construction contract for 225 miles of railroad from Arkinda, Arkansas to the Red River in Texas in August 1901.
The Arkansas & Choctaw was running trains from Texarkana, Arkansas to forty miles west of Arkinda, Arkansas. The railroad was completed from Hugo, Indian Territory to the Kiamichi River with only a twelve-mile gap remaining between Hugo and Arkinda. A crew was surveying a route from Ashdown east to the Mississippi River. Service from Texarkana was via trackage rights on KCS.
The First Arkansas & Choctaw train crossed the new bridge over the Kiamichi River on June 4, 1902.
In 1902, the Arkansas & Choctaw was trying to gain control of the Memphis, Arkansas & Texas railroad, an unbuilt railroad which had a charter to build from West Memphis to Louisiana.
Arkansas & Choctaw Railway merged into the St. Louis & San Francisco in July 1902, for $5 million - actually purchased the certificates of the Arkansas & Choctaw Construction Company which was building the railroad. The St. Louis & San Francisco announced that it would not officially take over the Arkansas & Choctaw until it had been completed.
By July, Arkansas Choctaw awards contract to build a 33-mile extension east from Ashdown to Hope, Arkansas.
Arkansas & Choctaw Railway acquired at foreclosure by the St. Louis, San Francisco & New Orleans, October 12, 1902.

Bart Jennings


On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 10:32 AM Gerald Hook <gah333br@...> wrote:

RAILSPOT members have already seen a message or two regarding this little known railroad.  The thread began with Dennis Hogan’s “Railspot Rarity #10” post a week or so ago.

 

I’m bring KCS NOTES to expand this discussion seeking input from others who may have a germ or two of knowledge regarding the ARKANSAS & CHOCTAW RAILROAD.  As you see the last message, I’ve found a single mention of a possible KCP&G (KCS) and A&C connection.

 

Anyone wish to chime in?

 

Gerald Hook – Russellville, AR

 

From: Gerald Hook [mailto:gah333br@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 9:40 AM
To: 'Dennis Hogan' <denmeg_hogan@...>
Subject: RE: [Railspot] Railspot Rarity #10

 

This is the first mention I’ve seen regarding A&C being connected to the Pee Gee.  ‘Arkansas Railroads’ on internet produces several hits including an alpha list of known railroads in Arkansas.  A&C is shown as existing 1898, but became SLSF&NO in 1903. 

 

R&LHS Bulletin #60 (1943) was devoted entirely to Oklahoma, written by Sylvan Wood (OK A&M) and Preston George.  A single paragraph about A&C shows up on page 67 under the Frisco heading.  There is no mention of any connection to KCP&G.

 

‘Portal to Texas History’ newspaper search came up with a handful of entries in 1898-99 and more in 1900.  The earlier papers talked about A&C extending to Wichita Falls. 

 

So, I turned to the ‘Gateway to Oklahoma History’ newspaper files and came up with the clipping below.  Looking at 1900, I found well over 100 separate newspaper hits that I’ll try to start on today.

 

Seeing A&C “went to” the Frisco in 1903 makes some sense.  Pee Gee was thrown into receivership in April 1899 and the property was reorganized at KCS exactly one year later. 

 

My guess is the court(s) held the A&C by until a suitable party stepped forward to buy it.  Looks like that process took three years.

 

Quoting Alice, “This just gets curiouser and curiouser”.

 

From: Dennis Hogan [mailto:denmeg_hogan@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 8:15 AM
To: Gerald Hook <gah333br@...>
Subject: Re: [Railspot] Railspot Rarity #10

 

It appears this line might have started as a KCP&G branch and

later became part of the Frisco's Hugo-Ashdown line.

What do you think?

 


From: Gerald Hook <gah333br@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 7:20 AM
To: 'Dennis Hogan' <denmeg_hogan@...>
Subject: RE: [Railspot] Railspot Rarity #10

 

I  found this nugget last night ….

 

 

 


ARKANSAS & CHOCTAW RAILROAD

Gerald Hook
 

RAILSPOT members have already seen a message or two regarding this little known railroad.  The thread began with Dennis Hogan’s “Railspot Rarity #10” post a week or so ago.

 

I’m bring KCS NOTES to expand this discussion seeking input from others who may have a germ or two of knowledge regarding the ARKANSAS & CHOCTAW RAILROAD.  As you see the last message, I’ve found a single mention of a possible KCP&G (KCS) and A&C connection.

 

Anyone wish to chime in?

 

Gerald Hook – Russellville, AR

 

From: Gerald Hook [mailto:gah333br@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 9:40 AM
To: 'Dennis Hogan' <denmeg_hogan@...>
Subject: RE: [Railspot] Railspot Rarity #10

 

This is the first mention I’ve seen regarding A&C being connected to the Pee Gee.  ‘Arkansas Railroads’ on internet produces several hits including an alpha list of known railroads in Arkansas.  A&C is shown as existing 1898, but became SLSF&NO in 1903. 

 

R&LHS Bulletin #60 (1943) was devoted entirely to Oklahoma, written by Sylvan Wood (OK A&M) and Preston George.  A single paragraph about A&C shows up on page 67 under the Frisco heading.  There is no mention of any connection to KCP&G.

 

‘Portal to Texas History’ newspaper search came up with a handful of entries in 1898-99 and more in 1900.  The earlier papers talked about A&C extending to Wichita Falls. 

 

So, I turned to the ‘Gateway to Oklahoma History’ newspaper files and came up with the clipping below.  Looking at 1900, I found well over 100 separate newspaper hits that I’ll try to start on today.

 

Seeing A&C “went to” the Frisco in 1903 makes some sense.  Pee Gee was thrown into receivership in April 1899 and the property was reorganized at KCS exactly one year later. 

 

My guess is the court(s) held the A&C by until a suitable party stepped forward to buy it.  Looks like that process took three years.

 

Quoting Alice, “This just gets curiouser and curiouser”.

 

From: Dennis Hogan [mailto:denmeg_hogan@...]
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 8:15 AM
To: Gerald Hook <gah333br@...>
Subject: Re: [Railspot] Railspot Rarity #10

 

It appears this line might have started as a KCP&G branch and

later became part of the Frisco's Hugo-Ashdown line.

What do you think?

 


From: Gerald Hook <gah333br@...>
Sent: Thursday, October 22, 2020 7:20 AM
To: 'Dennis Hogan' <denmeg_hogan@...>
Subject: RE: [Railspot] Railspot Rarity #10

 

I  found this nugget last night ….

 

 

 


Re: Louisiana & North West RR

Skip Waters
 

I realized I didn't really speak about the L&NWRR part of the topic.  I can't prove it right now, but I suspect the City Hall depot was for the L&NWRR connection from the north.  As for a bridge over the Red River, I'm not certain, will do more research and find out.  I will say this, the TAP line did go due north toward's the river before turning NW to Shreveport.  And on the other side of the Red River there is an active rail line with a few Army switchers working a plant there.  It appears the line could of connected at the river somewhere.  By Bridge or Ferry I do not know.

More to study and find out...

Skip Waters
Dallas, Texas

On Thursday, October 22, 2020, 12:58:29 AM CDT, Skip Waters <wgcrush@...> wrote:


Well... I don't know if I know more... but, I can tell you what I do know.

The other depot in Natchitoches that is used as City Hall appears to be for a line that tapped off the T&P or what later became the T&P.  At the time Natchitoches got a railroad, it was a TAP line that connected with the T&P at Cypress, Louisiana.  (I now see there is more T&P Louisiana history I need to go study.)

The way the city streets and topography is laid out leading to the City Hall depot, it seems like the rail line came off the T&P, or off the TAP line (Natchitoches Railroad), just after 2nd street and ran down 5th street and then curved into the present location on Amulet Street.  If you study a street map, you will see two roads side by side along this route.  One is "lower 5th" street and the other is simply "5th street". Well, 5th street is the old right of way roadbed for the railroad line to the City Hall depot.  Going to school there I always thought it was odd to build such a high road next to a second road along the houses.  Then, I learned of the Depot and followed the right of way and it all made sense.

As for City Hall depot as the first depot of Natchitoches, even though the plaque on the City Hall depot says it's the first one, I'm not so sure.  The 1887 photo of the depot in the Natchitoches Times 2013 article (attached) does not match the current City Hall depot's architecture.  Plus, the article says the first depot location was near Jefferson Street at the entrance of the University.  This would make sense as there is a large swath of land near this location with doesn't account for why the street pitched far away from the right of way here... unless there were railroad buildings or structures there at one time?  A depot perhaps?

I also have a print from the 1983 Natchitoches Folk Festival (attached) which shows what appears to be the first Natchtoches depot set in 1910 next to an engine house or shed for the Natchitoches Railroad and the depot does not match the current architecture of the City Hall depot.  It matches more closely to the depot shown in the Natchitoches Times article photo of 1887.

Note another photo from 1900 (attached), showing the same train shed and depot (just like the 1983 print) describes the scene as this...

Men with horses and train at tap line depot at Chaplin's Lake, Natchitoches, Louisiana. "This engine belongs to the old Natchitoches Railroad--Ran to Cypress, connected with the T & P local there. This location is the Railroad Crossing at Chaplain's Lake 1900."

The railroad crossing at Chaplain's Lake is right next to Jefferson Street at the University entrance and the plot of empty land where this first depot would of been located.  It's all coming together now...

I have another book to reference about Louisiana rail history, but it's not easy to get to, once I do, I'll submit more info about the mysteries of the Railroads of Natchitoches, Louisiana.

Skip Waters
Dallas, Texas




On Wednesday, October 21, 2020, 08:08:45 PM CDT, texaszephyr <texaszephyr@...> wrote:


Skip should know, he went to school there.

I’ve always wondered if this line was used in the John Wayne “The Horse Soldiers”. It was supposedly filmed at Nachitoches.

TZ


On Oct 21, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Dennis Hogan <denmeg_hogan@...> wrote:

Back in 1910 it covered almost 121 miles from McNeil to Natchitoches.
This accounts for the other extant depot in Natchitoches, I think. The one in addition to the T&P depot.
https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMQXTD_Natchitoches_Railway_Depot_Natchitoches_LA


Re: Louisiana & North West RR

Skip Waters
 

Well... I don't know if I know more... but, I can tell you what I do know.

The other depot in Natchitoches that is used as City Hall appears to be for a line that tapped off the T&P or what later became the T&P.  At the time Natchitoches got a railroad, it was a TAP line that connected with the T&P at Cypress, Louisiana.  (I now see there is more T&P Louisiana history I need to go study.)

The way the city streets and topography is laid out leading to the City Hall depot, it seems like the rail line came off the T&P, or off the TAP line (Natchitoches Railroad), just after 2nd street and ran down 5th street and then curved into the present location on Amulet Street.  If you study a street map, you will see two roads side by side along this route.  One is "lower 5th" street and the other is simply "5th street". Well, 5th street is the old right of way roadbed for the railroad line to the City Hall depot.  Going to school there I always thought it was odd to build such a high road next to a second road along the houses.  Then, I learned of the Depot and followed the right of way and it all made sense.

As for City Hall depot as the first depot of Natchitoches, even though the plaque on the City Hall depot says it's the first one, I'm not so sure.  The 1887 photo of the depot in the Natchitoches Times 2013 article (attached) does not match the current City Hall depot's architecture.  Plus, the article says the first depot location was near Jefferson Street at the entrance of the University.  This would make sense as there is a large swath of land near this location with doesn't account for why the street pitched far away from the right of way here... unless there were railroad buildings or structures there at one time?  A depot perhaps?

I also have a print from the 1983 Natchitoches Folk Festival (attached) which shows what appears to be the first Natchtoches depot set in 1910 next to an engine house or shed for the Natchitoches Railroad and the depot does not match the current architecture of the City Hall depot.  It matches more closely to the depot shown in the Natchitoches Times article photo of 1887.

Note another photo from 1900 (attached), showing the same train shed and depot (just like the 1983 print) describes the scene as this...

Men with horses and train at tap line depot at Chaplin's Lake, Natchitoches, Louisiana. "This engine belongs to the old Natchitoches Railroad--Ran to Cypress, connected with the T & P local there. This location is the Railroad Crossing at Chaplain's Lake 1900."

The railroad crossing at Chaplain's Lake is right next to Jefferson Street at the University entrance and the plot of empty land where this first depot would of been located.  It's all coming together now...

I have another book to reference about Louisiana rail history, but it's not easy to get to, once I do, I'll submit more info about the mysteries of the Railroads of Natchitoches, Louisiana.

Skip Waters
Dallas, Texas




On Wednesday, October 21, 2020, 08:08:45 PM CDT, texaszephyr <texaszephyr@...> wrote:


Skip should know, he went to school there.

I’ve always wondered if this line was used in the John Wayne “The Horse Soldiers”. It was supposedly filmed at Nachitoches.

TZ


On Oct 21, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Dennis Hogan <denmeg_hogan@...> wrote:

Back in 1910 it covered almost 121 miles from McNeil to Natchitoches.
This accounts for the other extant depot in Natchitoches, I think. The one in addition to the T&P depot.
https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMQXTD_Natchitoches_Railway_Depot_Natchitoches_LA


Re: Prescott, Reader & Fordyce Ry.

Barton Jennings
 

Prescott, Reader & Fordyce August 1907 Incorporation
The road was already in operation from Reader, in Ouachita county, west to Lyda, a distance of six and one half miles (think logging). Plans were to extend it to Prescott, a distance of 24 miles, to reach the Iron Mountain and the Prescott & Northwestern. It was then to be extended east from Prescott to Fordyce. However, the ICC shows that it was never more than 6.5 miles long.

Prescott, Reader & Fordyce was succeeded by Prescott & Reader Railway about 1910. About 1 mile of additional track was built before it was abandoned in 1914.

The Reader was a different railroad and route. The Reader Railroad was incorporated in Arkansas, on July 13, 1925, to take over the 23.5 mile railroad built by the Mansfield Lumber Company, which ran south out of Reader.

Bart





On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 8:00 PM Dennis Hogan <denmeg_hogan@...> wrote:
Any relation to the more familiar Reader RR?
It traversed 6 miles between Reader and Lyda AR in 1910.

[ORG 1910]


Re: Texas City Shay

eda77092
 

When the caboose was still in Texas City they attached wood panel siding to the exterior steel sides thus covering all the windows.I suppose they did that to cut down on vandalism.The plybead paneling gives the appearance of a wood caboose but with no windows.The doors have been welded shut.Now that it is back at Galveston RR. Museum I hope they will remove the wood siding to display it as originally built.I believe it is a SP or TNO model C40-3 caboose.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


Re: Louisiana & North West RR

Tom Roise
 

That would be a good story too!!

Tom Roise


On Oct 21, 2020, at 8:08 PM, texaszephyr <texaszephyr@...> wrote:

Skip should know, he went to school there.

I’ve always wondered if this line was used in the John Wayne “The Horse Soldiers”. It was supposedly filmed at Nachitoches.

TZ


On Oct 21, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Dennis Hogan <denmeg_hogan@...> wrote:

Back in 1910 it covered almost 121 miles from McNeil to Natchitoches.
This accounts for the other extant depot in Natchitoches, I think. The one in addition to the T&P depot.
https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMQXTD_Natchitoches_Railway_Depot_Natchitoches_LA


Re: Louisiana & North West RR

texaszephyr
 

If I remember correctly the PVS also had its sights set on Fort Davis.


On Oct 21, 2020, at 8:17 PM, Dennis Hogan <denmeg_hogan@...> wrote:

Yep, Skip would know more.
There must have been a bridge across the Red River which no longer exists.

Speaking of the Grierson Raid ("Horse Soldiers"), Benjamin Grierson later became post commandant
at Fort Davis Texas.  He was a promoter of a never-built narrow gauge railroad from the T&P (around Kent,
I recall) to Ft. Davis.  That would have been an interesting line!


Re: Louisiana & North West RR

Dennis Hogan
 

Yep, Skip would know more.
There must have been a bridge across the Red River which no longer exists.

Speaking of the Grierson Raid ("Horse Soldiers"), Benjamin Grierson later became post commandant
at Fort Davis Texas.  He was a promoter of a never-built narrow gauge railroad from the T&P (around Kent,
I recall) to Ft. Davis.  That would have been an interesting line!


Railspot Rarity #12

Dennis Hogan
 

Beaumont & Great Northern RR had a distinctive emblem comprised of a circle,
the letters B&GN, and a diagonal fletched arrow.
In 1910 it ran two pairs of trains between Trinity TX and Livingston.
The town of Onalaska was a stop about halfway.

[ORG 1910]


Re: Louisiana & North West RR

texaszephyr
 

Skip should know, he went to school there.

I’ve always wondered if this line was used in the John Wayne “The Horse Soldiers”. It was supposedly filmed at Nachitoches.

TZ


On Oct 21, 2020, at 8:04 PM, Dennis Hogan <denmeg_hogan@...> wrote:

Back in 1910 it covered almost 121 miles from McNeil to Natchitoches.
This accounts for the other extant depot in Natchitoches, I think. The one in addition to the T&P depot.
https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMQXTD_Natchitoches_Railway_Depot_Natchitoches_LA


Louisiana & North West RR

Dennis Hogan
 

Back in 1910 it covered almost 121 miles from McNeil to Natchitoches.
This accounts for the other extant depot in Natchitoches, I think. The one in addition to the T&P depot.
https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMQXTD_Natchitoches_Railway_Depot_Natchitoches_LA


Prescott, Reader & Fordyce Ry.

Dennis Hogan
 

Any relation to the more familiar Reader RR?
It traversed 6 miles between Reader and Lyda AR in 1910.

[ORG 1910]


Re: Railspot Rarity #10

Dennis Hogan
 

This appears to be a Frisco predecessor line in the SW corner of Arkansas.
Still not sure how it offered passenger service out of Texarkana unless the
company cut a deal with KCS.


Re: Texas City Shay

Don Harper
 

It is.



On Oct 21, 2020, at 4:28 PM, Kenneth Cotton <kbcotton@...> wrote:

As far as I know the caboose is back at the museum.
 
Ken C.
 
Sent from Mail for Windows 10
 
From: Christopher Zurek
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2020 4:03 PM
To: RS-TALON@groups.io
Subject: Re: [Railspot] Texas City Shay
 

Whatever happened to the caboose?

Chris Z.

On 10/7/2020 08:00, Don Harper wrote:
That is correct Dennis.  The Shay was sold to the Knoxville outfit.  They will restore it and run it.  It is much closer to home than it was in Galveston. 
 
The loan to Texas City was a fiasco.  The Shay and a caboose were loaned in exchange for boiler work being done on the 555 Consolidation.  The company that said they would do the boiler work reneged, and the Museum board didn’t do anything about the contract being broken.  I initiated the effort to get the Shay and caboose returned to the Museum after it has been in Texas City for 25 or so years.
 
Don Harper


On Oct 7, 2020, at 8:36 AM, Dennis Hogan <denmeg_hogan@...> wrote:
 
There are reports that the Shay locomotive on loan to Texas City by the Galveston
Railroad Museum is on its way to the Three Ramblers operation in Knoxville TN.

Any corrections to that report?

https://www.galvestonrrmuseum.org/fullscreen-page/comp-jiw1h9p7/34d85867-a93b-47f9-9138-a14fca3b14b4/2/%3Fi%3D2%26p%3Dh4cer%26s%3Dstyle-jivyb9rh
 

 



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