Date   
Galwyddel/Lidell/Little?

Class1 Driver
 

The link below shows a map with a region in southwest Scotland called 'Galwyddel' in c.600 AD (not called that in the 300 AD Map) http://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/British-Isles-3-Anglo-Saxon-600-final-JPG-e1462557647479.jpg

It seems that Galwyddel was named after a mixture of cultures -- the Gaels and the Norseman, and/or represents the Gall Goidels.

My interest lies in the possibility that the Little surname could possibly be a derivative of the 'Galwyddel' region. By dropping the 'Ga' we'd be left with 'lwyddel', and that could easily change into Liddell, and then Little.

Hey Leake (or anybody), has this idea already been presented by others? Does it make sense to anybody but me?

Here's the link to the list of 'Isles' Maps in different timeperiods: http://www.abroadintheyard.com/maps-britain-ireland-ancient-tribes-kingdoms-dna/

Galbraith would be another name that combines Gal (Gael) with Britain (braith), to mean 'a Gaelic Briton'. 

In addition to the above surnames mentioned, a few other L193 surnames have come out of the southwest Scotland/Galwyddel region. In fact a large majority of L193 surnames seem to come out of southern Scotland which is probably not more than 150 miles across.

My TMRCA calculations for the births of the four L193 Son subclades is approximately 200-400 AD. All four Son subclades would likely have been born around the same time -- like all established Son subclades they would likely have been born within 150 years of each other: in this case within a 150 years of the last of the 9 equivalent SNPs in the L193 'block' on Alex's Big Y chart.  http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=538&star=false

Best,

Daryl

Re: [R1b-L513 Project] Re: Galwyddel/Lidell/Little?

Class1 Driver
 

This is a very informative thread for me, and I've learned some interesting facts from everybody.  Keep it coming!

I've been busy, or would have replied sooner.

It seems I sometimes forget facts I once knew, or mistakenly jumble things up -- like the meaning of 'gall'.

I think it was Sykes who dna sampled the Isles before he wrote his book on it (Saxons Vikings, and Celts). I still haven't finished it.  I thought he sampled southwestern Scotland too, but perhaps his data was not included in the Oxford data. Here's another interesting link that gives comparative maps and data charts of the Y-DNA distribution in the Isles. R1b and L21 appear to dominate. http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/britain_ireland_dna.shtml

One thing of great interest that Sykes remarked on was what some people he sampled considered 'foreign' to an area in UK.  Sykes wanted to keep track of geographical differences, but one man said he wasn't from that area. Upon questioning, the man revealed he originated from an area about 5 miles away (can't remember the exact miles, but was small). Naturally Sykes was astounded that this man would consider himself a foreigner to an area only a few miles from his origins. So am I astounded. Which makes me wonder what people 1500 years ago defined as a foreigner.

I'm not a linguist, but language does interest me in relation to surnames and placenames. To randomly pick a name like Malcolm, it's a reference to Columba, with 'Mal' (I hope I get this right) meaning 'servant of' and 'colm' meaning 'Columba' (the Christian priest/abbot/evangelist of Scotland), or 'servant/follower/believer of Columba and his Christian message.

Which reminds me, Malcolm Beg is claimed to be an ancestor of our ZS4581 Drummonds. This past winter we believe we discovered that Gillespie Galbraith fathered Malcolm Beg, and that Gilchrist Bretnach fathered Gillespie Galbraith. So, are the Drummonds actually Galbraiths? 

Best,

Daryl


On Sep 11, 2017 10:18 PM, "johnlgalbraith@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Hi Daryl,


I just wanted to point out that in Gaelic, "gall" means "stranger" or "foreigner," so Galbraith in Gaelic means "foreign Briton," rather than Gaelic Briton. And the usual understanding of "foreign Briton" is that they were Britons who were already in the area when the Gaels arrived and were, therefore, foreign to those Gaels.

Clan Galbraith traces back to a man called Gilchrist Bretnach, who lived near Dumbarton (fortress of the Britons) in the latter half of the 12th century, which was about 100 years after the Kingdom of Strathclyde had fallen to the Scots. The Britons of the area would have had to accept the Gaelic culture, but it seems that 100 years wasn't quite enough for assimilation, since Gilchrist's two sons were named Gillespic Galbrait and Rodarcus Galbrait. Gillespic Galbrait is considered to have been the first chief of Clan Galbraith. I find the shift from Bretnach (the Briton) to Galbrait (foreign Briton) quite interesting and wonder who was responsible for it.

Anyway, Galbraiths aside, it's also interesting how the word "gall" in place names is a clear indication of the people living there being considered foreigners to others nearby. For instance, your example of Galwyddel. In Gaelic, the name was Gallgeidhael, indicating the presence of "foreign Gaels," who were probably, as you say, Norse Gaels.

Another good example is the old Gaelic name for the Hebrides, which is Innse Gall (islands of the foreigners). More Norse Gaels there, it appears.

Regarding that genetic study by Oxford University, I find it quite fascinating. I'd read about it before and seen the map, but it never fails to amaze me. I only wish their study had been covered southwestern Scotland. Oh well, maybe one day.

Regards,
John Galbraith

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Re: [R1b-L513 Project] Re: Galwyddel/Lidell/Little?

Class1 Driver
 

Jim:

I went to the FTDNA Galbraith Project, and only found our own L193>Z17813 Galbraith there, and no other apparent L513 Galbraiths, so the answer seems to be no, Drummonds were not part of the Galbraith clan as we know it.  The Galbraith surname seems to be spread out amongst different haplogroups.  Maybe it had more of the 'foreign Briton' meaning intitially -- possibly before the clan part took hold?

Maybe John Galbraith could weigh in on the subject.


Best,

Daryl

On Sep 18, 2017 6:13 PM, "'James Drummond' jimdrummo@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@...> wrote:
 

Daryl,

 

Great question, “are the Drummonds actually Galbraiths?”

I am curious to know the answer.

 

Jim Drummond


Blake/Campbell L193 match 37 mkrs

Class1 Driver
 

JBlake18:

That's a question for which we don't have enough information about, and may not be answerable unfortunately. Most surnames only became common within the last 500 yrs or so. L193 man was probably born about 2700-3200 yrs ago. His descendants didn't blossom -- through 4 separate Son subclades -- until around 200-400 AD per my calculations (Yfull says about 100 BC). We call that blossoming point the TMRCA (time to most recent ancestor) -- the point in time where all L193 men alive today share the same common ancestor.  SNP, or Haplogroup, ageing is not an exact science by any means at the moment.

The best way to attempt to find your more recent ancestors would be through more testing, like 111 STR testing and/or SNP testing like Big Y. Doing both STR and Big Y testing should help greatly to eliminate those that are not your closest paternal relations.

Surnames may not be the best way to find your closest relations. For example, my last name is Martin but through STR and Big Y testing we discovered we are likely McClains because we are the only Martins amongst many McClains and a few other surnames. Most of us in the L193>BY207>>>A1067 subclade suspect we descend from the chiefly lineage of the McClain clan, but it hasn't yet been proven.

One thing seems incontrovertible: if we hadn't all done 111 STR and Big Y SNP testing, we'd still be stumbling around in the dark. For the time being it's not quite so dark, and we do see much more light than most. We may even need to take more than 111 STR tests  -- when available -- to help us further, but even then a breakthrough may be reliant on new testers coming into the mix.

For more detailed analysis and recommendations we'd need to know your kit # and exactly which tests you've taken to date.

Best,

Daryl
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "jblake18@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@...>
Date: Sep 21, 2017 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [R1b-L513 Project] Re: Galwyddel/Lidell/Little?
To: <R1b-L513-Project@...>
Cc:

 

Hello everyone, So I have been trying to figure all this out but not very good at it any help would be very much appreciated. My surname is Blake and my family has been traced to Montgomery North Carolina. There are several books about these Blake's saying they are descendants of Sir Richard Cadell who changed his last name to Blake. So what I have found so far is that I have some matches with surname Black Blake and Campbell. What I have learned is that there was once a Black Scottish clan that for some reason was no longer recognized by the clans and I think the were taken into the Lamont clan and Campbell clan. The lamont clan killed a bunch of the Campbell clan so the Campbells destroyed the Lamont clan and the Lamont clan chief is supposed to be in Australia now. I am a Y-37 so far with snp L513 and L193 and the Campbell clan on your map I think is my match with a Black in it how can I find out who came first Black Campbell or Blake? 


.

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Re: [R1b-L513 Project] Past Big Y

Class1 Driver
 

Joel:

You've got your work cut out for you.

Take a look at this link from Alex W's Big Tree http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=200&star=false

Flucker is your closest relative there and per both your unique SNPs, which average to 4.5 (3 for Flucker, 6 for you) your common ancestor may be around 350-550 yrs ago (depending on SNP mutation rate used). Your next closest relatives are Dixon and the two Musgraves. Combining all 5 men's unique SNP, plus shared SNPs works out to roughly 5.3 SNPs -- so you all share the same common ancestor, under the BY14605 Block of SNPs, roughly 400-600 yrs ago.

Your next closest relative, per Alex's Tree, is Howie who doesn't share the BY14605 SNP Block with you and the other above men. But he does share the BY411 Block with all of you, and this makes you 6 men closer to each other than all the other men under L1066. You 6 men now share a common ancestor back to about 9.8 SNPs, which could be about 800-1100 years ago -- roughly.

I see that L1066 is one of the larger subclades under Z253 (Son SNP of ZZ10, which is a Son SNP of DF13).  There doesn't seem to be any dominant surname there. In fact, you are the only Campbell I could see under ZZ10 which is L513's brother SNP under DF13. It was common for tenants to assume their landlords name, so this may be how you got your Campbell surname, as they were a prolific dominant group. My recent paternal Martin ancestors came from Campbelltown, Kintyre, Argyll, and one still lives there.

You need many more L1066>BY411 men to Y-DNA test, if they're out there. Perhaps researching your closest paternal relatives will reveal a particular geographical pocket to exploit with feet on the ground and door to door knocking.


Best,

Daryl


On Sep 20, 2017 6:57 AM, "Joel Campbell loudouncastle@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@...> wrote:
 

It is under Z253 and then under Z411. There are only two of us: Dave Flucker and myself. I am kit #226153.

Joel Campbell

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 12:21 AM, Class1 Driver class1driver@... [R1b-L513-Project] <R1b-L513-Project@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

Where is by14605? I don't see it on Alex's Tree, our STR results, or in database (PDF Jan17).

What is your kit #?

Best,

Daryl


On Sep 13, 2017 8:50 PM, "loudouncastle@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I would like to know if anyone has any thoughts on what might be downstream from BY14605. I've got thirteen "unique" SNPs. I'm currently waiting on the Big Y results of a cousin. Do I just wait to see which unique SNPs we have in common? 


Re: [R1b-L513 Project] Past Big Y

Class1 Driver
 

Joel:

If you don't want your vcf files to get lost, make sure to include the kit number when you upload to Alex.

If your dad's 1st cousin had 2 more SNPs than you this means he and his father both had a SNP mutation -- unusual, but interesting because there were only 2 opportunities to mutate from your great grandfather.

I only count the unique SNPs which have a plus sign on top of a clear background in the far right column, and when the far left column Position designation only has two letters in it: 1 letter for the old modal value at that Position, and one letter following it for the new SNP mutation -- a Single Nucleotide Polymorphism.

Big Y doesn't always catch every SNP consistently, so it's possible you and your cousin may have the same exact unique SNPs.


Best,

Daryl


On Sep 24, 2017 9:09 AM, "Joel Campbell loudouncastle@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@...> wrote:
 

Daryl
I just got the Big Y results of my father's first cousin. He is BY-14605 like me and has seven unique SNPs. Five are the same as mine plus two more.  He is a generation older than me. I'm also awaiting the Big Y results of a guy named Thomas Campbell. Should be out any time. I've been out of town this week, but am home now. I will upload these to Alex ASAP.


Re: [R1b-L513 Project] R1b-L513 Descendant Tree update

Class1 Driver
 

Mike:

Your Descendant Tree chart has Galbraith and McIntyre descending from Z17816, but they should descend from Z17813.

Do you know how these two men came to share/test the same SNP in BY34838?  Very interesting. Is this an example of where Alex's chart has fallen behind?  I suspected this McIntyre was different from the other L193 McIntyres, especially since he (347690) and another McIntyre (57594) share the 640=13 STR and the latter does not share the very slow moving 434=10 which the other group of McIntyres (BY2634 suspected) share.

The 434=10 STR  has been seen in L193-only men who have tested positive for BY2634, including Wood, Mcintyre, Ferguson, and Wilson. It seems apparent that 434=10 is a predictor marker for BY2634 amongst L193 men.

Recommendation for McIntyres: Those with 434=10 should test for BY2634, and possibly for some of the 7 private SNPs held by #676804 McIntyre. Click on the surname on Alex's chart to access private SNPs http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=10

#57594 Mcintyre should test for the BY34838 SNP held by #347690 Mcintyre.

For the 7 McIntyres I've bcc'd with this email, please feel free to contact me for any clarifications. I match you all at 67 STR markers, and you are all at least L193/S5982, as I am: Darrel, George, William, Fred, Scot, Albert, Ted.  See our public L513 Haplogroup Project pages here https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-l513/about/background
There are two types of Y-DNA mutations: STRs, and SNPs.  STRs are what are used on our personal Matches pages. SNPs, often referred to as Haplogroups, are the only mutations we can use to build our paternal trees.  See the left side blue background of the Descendant Tree Chart on the above link to our Background page for men descending from L193 man. L193 man was likely born around 2900 years ago, but all L193 men share a common paternal ancestor born approximately around 200 AD (my personal calculation).



Best,

Daryl 


On Feb 6, 2018 9:29 PM, "mwwdna@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@...> wrote:
 

I've updated the R1b-L513 Descendant Tree.  A PNG graphics version is on the R-L513 project About pages.


There are quite a few changes so please review them!

This should align very closely with the R-L513 project Y Classic and Colorized reports as well as the actual FTDNA haplotree for L513.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L513?iframe=yresults

FTDNA has been more responsive in reviewing new Big Y results and automatically naming SNPs and adding branches.  Still, some branches can and have fallen through the cracks so we need to watch closely as new Big Y and Pack results come in.

There seems to been some benefit to the conversion to Hg38 as I've noticed some people that were re-assigned haplogroup labels to be more detailed and a few more branches were identified. I think this is because the Hg38 reference model is improved so FTDNA was able to make more confident variant (SNP) calls.

The only misfortune is that now the Big Tree has fallen behind. It is the best view of the tree, in my opinion, because it shows phylogenetic equivalent SNPs without having to click on pop-up buttons, etc.  However, I don't see how it can keep pace at this point. It will still be important and we still need to submit our VCF raw results files to the Y DNA Data Warehouse, but I don't think we can assume the Big Tree is the most current or correct tree since it is a mix of the old Hg19 VCF files and new Hg38 VCF files and has to make assumptions in some cases because it does not use the BAM file data like YFull or FTDNA do.

Mike W

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Re: [R1b-L513 Project] R1b-L513 Descendant Tree update

Class1 Driver
 

Thanks Mike:

I've corrected my error with 6 McIntyres (7th is unreachable).

All:

It is a momentous time in FTDNA history!  I never suspected that FTDNA would get ahead of the citizen scientists in regards to the Haplotree -- but they have, as Alex's NGS Chart http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=10 doesn't yet reflect the 8 SNPs shared by Galbraith and Mcintyre. Interestingly, I count 8 good SNPs in Galbraith's private SNPs page (click on the surname).  I suspect that Mcintyre will have more than 8 private good SNPs.

I continue to get Matches, almost daily, especially at 25 markers.  I notice I have a couple of McIntire matches at 2 and 3 GDS at 37 markers, so they are likely L193 also. But that's not a guarantee as I have other 3 and 4 GD matches at 37 markers who are S9294 and FGC34929, so we don't share a common ancestor for at least 4600 years (my estimate of the age of L513).

For those interested, here's a link to McDonald's TMRCA ages.  I'm puzzled by some of his calculations (he has approximately 200 BC for TMRCA of L193, and I calculate it at about 200 AD), but you can look up the above mentioned SNPs  at his site here http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~mcdonald/genetics/p312/table.html

McDonald has DF13 TMRCA at around 4600 years, so L513's birth age should be about the same. For L513 men I use 127 years/SNP.  36 average SNPs X 127 = 4572 ybp.  For the L193 TMRCA I calculate 1778 ybp, or 127 X 14 SNPs. That works out to 1960-1777= 183 AD approximately. To get the approximate birth age of L193 I add the 9 equivalent SNPs to the previous 14 SNPs for a total of 23 SNPs to the birth of L193 man.  So 23 X 127 = 2921 ybp, or about 961 BC (1960- 2921= -961). I use 1960 AD as the average birth year of testees.

To summarize, according to my rough calculations, L193 man was likely born around 961 BC, but his descendants didn't really blossom until around 183 AD, the TMRCA of all living descendants of L193 man -- the point in time where all living L193 descendants share a common ancestor: Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor. This is essentially the average age of all the 4 living subclades (Sons) of L193.

Best,

Daryl


On Feb 9, 2018 12:24 PM, "mwwdna@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@...> wrote:
 

Daryl, please hold on recommending targeted (fixed) SNP testing or at least ask the folks to join here to discuss.

There are a number of SNPs in this branch. BY34838 is just the one FTDNA chose to lead with on the haplotree.  We don't have any idea about which SNP is oldest or youngest in this branch.

Big Y is always a good thing to do so, since you discover your own line of SNPs, and this should also cover the SNPs in this branch... which was discovered by Big Y. Of course, one should look for a price promotion.

I recognize that not all can afford Big Y but if we could get another McIntyre or two to do Big Y before recommending targeted SNP testing, we might have a better chance of selecting the right SNPs to target.  We should also fold that into a R1b-S5982(L193) Pack update.

Mike W




Mike W:

Class1 Driver
 

Check this out. 
N195016CampbellFinlay Campbell abt 1764 CAMPBELTOWN,ARGYLL,SCOTLA
at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L513?iframe=ysnp
I couldn't find any STRs for him. He is BY13857 like Pelkey (290867, SNP Pack) and McClain ( 82167, Big Y) Can he be added to the L513 Tree with Pelkey and McClain under BY13857?

I'd also like to contact him, since he shares the same MDA town of Campbelltown with me, but I don't have an email address for him. Do you? Maybe you could have him contact me.

Best,

Daryl

Re: Mike W:

Class1 Driver
 

Also, Wood, 421024, and Hood, B144260, now share BY34846 directly under BY2634. I've encouraged Hood to send you his VCF file so he can be added to Alex's SNP Chart. This SNP now separates Wood from Wilson, Ferguson, and McIntyre on Alex's SNP Chart.  I calculate BY2634 man was born around 450 AD, and his descendant, BY34846,  born around 950 AD ( the TMRCA of BY2634 men).

Best,

Daryl

On May 23, 2018 5:01 AM, "Class1 Driver" <class1driver@...> wrote:
Check this out. 
N195016CampbellFinlay Campbell abt 1764 CAMPBELTOWN,ARGYLL,SCOTLA
at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L513?iframe=ysnp
I couldn't find any STRs for him. He is BY13857 like Pelkey (290867, SNP Pack) and McClain ( 82167, Big Y) Can he be added to the L513 Tree with Pelkey and McClain under BY13857?

I'd also like to contact him, since he shares the same MDA town of Campbelltown with me, but I don't have an email address for him. Do you? Maybe you could have him contact me.

Best,

Daryl

Hood and Wood BY34846

Class1 Driver
 

Question to anybody:

Hood, B144260, and Wood, 421024, both took Big Y. Hood just got onto Alex's Tree, but preliminary, so in red.

I can't find the BY34846 SNP in either of their private SNPs on Alex's Tree, so it's a bit of a mystery why FTDNA has them both as BY34846 according to our Project page under L193>>>BY2634. Neither testee knows how they are related, so they're excited to find out.

Perhaps somebody will need to look at their VCF files to see if BY34846 is there. Any volunteers willing to receive their VCFs and analyze them? I've just got my phone.

BY34846: Hg19, 7815367;  Hg38, 7947326

Ybrowse uses 7947326 and recognizes it as BY34846.

Nobody else in their block has BY34846 per Alex's Tree and Project Results page.

I don't doubt FTDNA, but curious how they matched these two with same SNP.


Best,

Daryl

R1b-L513 Facebook forum now available

Tiger Mike
 

Here is the link to the new FB forum.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/162623697829957/

Some people don't like FB. I don't either but a lot of people use it and it has some nice functions. I just don't think highly of "Zuck"(erberg) and the way they use data.

The R1b-L513-project yahoo group will NOT be closed down, though.

Facebook

Bjorn Cynic
 

Please do not go near F***book with any of my information.

Joe

Re: Facebook

Tiger Mike
 

Joe, if I see someone post personal/confidential type data for someone else on either the L513 yahoo group or the L513 FB group, I'll delete it.

I ask everyone to help by reporting violations. I'm still human and not paid to do this so it helps to have help.

New Facebook L513 group

Tiger Mike
 

I will close this group down since the Facebook L513 group is now going.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/R1b.L513/

Hopefully, this takes care of the lag factors people in Australia see on Yahoo groups.

Re: New Facebook L513 group

Tiger Mike
 

I never closed this forum down and will not.   I have found that many people are dead set against Facebook and apparently don't want to use the FTDNA project Activity Feed.  I am leaving this groups.io L513 forum open and will check it from time to time.

Re: New Facebook L513 group

Class1 Driver
 

Thanks Mike:

I tried the activity Feed but had trouble establishing when posts were chronologically made.

Which format of discussion should we use?
Its all about ease of use for me.  Not a big fan of Facebook even though I can see why it may appeal to some. I turn off notifications to Facebook as I find it annoying.

I like the instant email format notification for Yahoo and io forums. I haven't studied all the options  of all the different forum choices thoroughly, but io seems to be at the top of my list at the moment.

Best,

Daryl


On Sun, Oct 27, 2019, 10:06 AM Tiger Mike <mwwdna@...> wrote:
I never closed this forum down and will not.   I have found that many people are dead set against Facebook and apparently don't want to use the FTDNA project Activity Feed.  I am leaving this groups.io L513 forum open and will check it from time to time.

Re: New Facebook L513 group

Tiger Mike
 

The Facebook is most active right now but use whatever you are comfortable with. The Activity Feed posts get bumped to the top by the most recent comment/reply.

Facebook has the option of sorting by most recent post to the top (chronological by post) or most recent comment/reply (bumping the post to the top). You can also turn off all notifications except this group and have email notifications for all posts for this group. That will give you chronological order.