Re: [R1b-L513 Project] YFull vs Big Tree / FTDNa

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Michael:

I'm not sure where you see that on Yfull.  From what I see, on the link below, Yfull sees our BY207 subclade as A1069, with 6 more equivalents: FGC32127 * A5865+4 SNPs. Click on those "+4 SNPs" and a small black popup reveals those four are Z17816, FGC39651, FGC39759, Z17813.

YFULL only has 4 men under A1069: 3 under A1067, and one A1069* (paragroup) -- the former 3 are Dugger (YFO8219), Duncan (YFO9454) and McDonald (YFO5328), so does that make you the latter, with ID #YFO7101?


The problem with ageing SNPs, using an algorithm like Yfull does, is that you need lots of samples.  Alex's Tree has over 20 samples to draw upon, so his Tree will automatically be more accurate than one with only 4, like Yfull's A1069 Tree per link above.

If BY207 men like Galbraith, Duff, and Grant were to send their BAMs to YFull, I suspect the Yfull A1069 Tree would start to resemble Alex's Tree -- with Z17813 descending from Z17816, and A1069 descending from Z17813.

One of the major hurdles with understanding our paternal roots through SNP testing is the different interpretations of SNPs.  Yfull has their rigid interpretation while FTDNA has their own, and then individuals -- with more interests in our own subclades -- will have even different interpretations. Lucky for us FTDNA has Sager working on the SNP Tree (full time?), and he has access to all BIG Y BAM files and others. When we question a SNPs placement, we can present to Mr. Sager to help us sort it out.

Ageing of SNPs, once sorted chronologically, is another whole different can of worms. If I may be so bold, I think the L193 TMRCA calculated by the "algorithms" are too old (100 BC), and my SNP calculations of around 250-450 AD (sweetspot of 350 AD) are more aligned with previous STR calculations. This younger age would also account for the STR homogeneity amongst L193 men. So, for clarity, it seems likely that all L193 men alive today descended from one man born no later than around 100 AD (250 AD minus 1 SNP, with the SNP rate no greater than 150 yrs: thus 250-150=100 AD). That man would be the last born SNP in the L193 block of equivalents, and of which we don't know the chronological order. But my "sweetspot" age for that same man would be closer to 250 AD (350 AD minus 1 SNP, with a likely SNP rate closer to 100 years than the 150 years given above -- so 350-100=250 AD).

Best,

Daryl

On Jul 30, 2017 5:49 PM, "mjscottinnc@... [R1b-L513-Project]" <R1b-L513-Project@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I find it interesting that YFull places Z17816 below Z17813 in its tree.
Mike - Daryl were you aware of this?

Specifically in terms of age (oldest to youngest)

Z17813->FGC39759->FGC39651->Z17816->FGC32127->A5865->A1069

This might make some interesting ancestorial changes for the McClain Z17815-Z17814 bunch


M Scott

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