Non responsive engine / decoder


stevejohns
 

Not sure where the best place is to ask this so I'm starting here.

I have an Intermountain F3 with factory sound QSI decoder.  It was in a consist with another non-sound unit, and was working fine.  (Using Digitrax universal consisting method.)  Then, all of a sudden, the sound unit stopped responding to the throttle.  The other unit in the MU was working fine.

I took them out of MU.  Reset the decoder, reprogrammed the address, and still the same non-response.

Interesting thing is that the number board lights are on, and the sound functions are working - including the prime mover revving up as I up the throttle!

So the decoder is talking to the command station and the throttle, is receiving commands, it's just like the motor itself is not responding.  I haven't cracked open the shell yet, but if there were a wiring issue I'd assume that the unit would not respond at all.

Any advice on troubleshooting this further?  I have reached out to Intermountain and going back and forth with them a bit so far.

Thanks for any help!
Steve


Keith Albright
 

You may have the version that shuts movement down o function 9. Put it back on the track and press function 6   3. Times and see if that helps. On some of those decoders f9 is shutdown
KeithA 


On Feb 16, 2022, at 8:58 AM, stevejohns via groups.io <stevejohns@...> wrote:

Not sure where the best place is to ask this so I'm starting here.

I have an Intermountain F3 with factory sound QSI decoder.  It was in a consist with another non-sound unit, and was working fine.  (Using Digitrax universal consisting method.)  Then, all of a sudden, the sound unit stopped responding to the throttle.  The other unit in the MU was working fine.

I took them out of MU.  Reset the decoder, reprogrammed the address, and still the same non-response.

Interesting thing is that the number board lights are on, and the sound functions are working - including the prime mover revving up as I up the throttle!

So the decoder is talking to the command station and the throttle, is receiving commands, it's just like the motor itself is not responding.  I haven't cracked open the shell yet, but if there were a wiring issue I'd assume that the unit would not respond at all.

Any advice on troubleshooting this further?  I have reached out to Intermountain and going back and forth with them a bit so far.

Thanks for any help!
Steve


stevejohns
 

Keith - you are a genius!  That did it!  


Bruce
 

I have a somewhat similar but not identical problem.  Was operating 2 Walters Proto F units that have factory installed QSI in consist.  Then, for reasons unknown, the sound in one of the units stopped working, yet the lights and motion do work.  I’ll try the 6 3 times  recommendation tonight, but if you think of any other action that might help, please let me know.


peteski7
 

Bruce, if the loco moves (motor can be controlled)  but it is silent then F6 will nto fix the problem.  You might want to get it out of the consist and try F8 (the sound muting function).  Also pressing F10 key will have the decoder speak its current status.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about QSI's Three Stages of Shut Down.  Maybe quoting the QSI manual will help out.

1.18 Three Stages of Shut Down: Disconnect, Standby and Total Shut Down (F9 in Neutral)

Locomotive Shut Down has three distinct stages, each entered by double-clicking or double-pressing the F9 Key.

Stage One: Disconnect

1) In Neutral, double-press F9 to enter Disconnect. You will hear a Long Air Let-off, which represents the pneumatic reverse lever on a Steam locomotive being placed in the Neutral position or the Diesel transition level being placed in the off or disconnect position. Your locomotive’s motor drive is disconnected.

2) To leave Disconnect, either double-press the F6 Start Up key as described in the Start Up section or double-press F9 again to reach the next stage of Shut Down, Standby.
A locomotive in Disconnect continues to respond to all function keys.
For a Diesel locomotive in Disconnect, if the throttle is increased or decreased, the motor sounds will rev up and down but the locomotive will not move. If the Dynamic Brakes are activated, the motors sounds will be labored under Sound of Power control as the throttle is increased and decreased. Prototype Diesel Motor/Generator power output is often tested under Dynamic Brake load in disconnect.
For an Electric locomotive in Disconnect, there is no action or sound associated with moving the throttle up and down and no affect from having the Dynamic Brakes activated.
For a Steam locomotive in Disconnect, if the throttle is increased/decreased, the hissing sound of venting steam will get louder/softer but the locomotive will not move. Prototype Steam locomotives would sometimes vent steam in Neutral to clear rust debris from the super-heaters that can affect the throttle.

Stage Two: Standby

1) In Disconnect, double press F9 to enter Standby. You will hear a Long Air Let-off followed by the Directional Lighting turning off. The motor will remain disconnected, while the Air Pumps, automatic Steam Blower/Cooling Fan operation, Number Board Lights and Cab Lights will continue to operate.

2) To leave Standby, either double-press the F6 Start Up key described in the Start Up section or double-press F9 again to reach the final stage of Shut Down, Total Shut Down.
In Standby, the locomotive will not respond to the throttle or most function keys24. The three exceptions are the F6 Start Up Function Key (described below), the F8 Mute Key (described above) and the F10 Status Key (described above).
Standby in Diesel locomotives, called Low Idle, has more utility than Standby in Steam and Electric locomotives. It allows a Diesel to be left on a siding inactive with only the motor running at its special “Low Idle” sounds. For Steam and Electric locomotives, the locomotive will appear to be completely inactive except for Cab and Number Board lights, occasional Air Pump sounds, and Blower or Fan sounds.

Stage Three: Total Shut Down

1) In Standby, double-press F9 to enter Total Shut Down. You will hear a Long Air Let-off followed by the sounds of a shut down procedure specific to your type of locomotive.
Diesel Locomotives: Low Idle Diesel Motors will return to normal idle sounds. Then the Air Pumps will turn off, as will the Number Board Lights, followed by the sounds of the Cooling Fans shutting off, the Louvers closing, the Diesel Motor(s) shutting down, Cab Lights shutting off, and finally the engineer’s door opening and shutting.
Electric Locomotives: The Air Pumps will turn off, Cab Lights will turn off, followed by the sounds of the Louvers being closed and the engineer’s door being opened and shut.
Steam Locomotives: The Air Pumps will turn off, followed by the sounds of Pop Off operating for about ten seconds, the Cab Lights shutting off, and finally the Blower Hiss will die out.

2) To leave Total Shut Down, double-press the F6 key.

NOTES:
Double-clicking ensures that Shut Down stages are not entered or exited accidentally. Doubling-pressing is defined as two F9 presses within two seconds. Note that the F9 key may have to be pressed three times the first time you use it due to the command station and locomotive having different initial states for F9.
Pressing a Function Key will only produce a Short Air Let-off.
In Total Shut Down, the locomotive will not respond to any function keys except the F6 Start Up Function Key (described below) and the F10 Status Key (described above).
Total Shut Down allows you to take a locomotive “off-line” (turn off sounds, lights, ignore throttle and function commands (except turn on)) independent of the operating session; that is, the locomotive will still be “off line” when power is reapplied for the next operating session.
If power is turned off at any stage of Shut Down (Disconnect, Standby or Total Shut Down) or during a Shut Down procedure, the locomotive will remember its last Shut Down stage, and will power up in that Shut Down stage.
If Start Up is initiated during any of the above Shut Down procedures, Shut Down is aborted and the locomotive returns to normal operation.
Note: The “Shut Down” feature (ID=143) can be assigned to a function key as an alternative to the “Disconnect/Standby/Total Shutdown” feature (ID=145). The two features are similar, both requiring a double press. The “Shut Down” feature puts the locomotive directly into Total Shut Down, bypassing the Disconnect and Standby states.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.19 Start Up (F6 in Neutral)

If your locomotive is in any of the Shut Down stages, you can return your locomotive to normal operation by double-pressing the F6 Key. Start Up will be different for each stage of Shut Down, but always begins with a Long Air Let-off and ends by the locomotive entering normal operation.

Start Up from Disconnect

* Double press F6 in Disconnect, the locomotive will produce a Long Air Let-off and enter normal operation.

Start Up from Standby

* Double press F6 in Standby, the locomotive will produce a Long Air Let-off, the Directional Lighting will turn on and then the locomotive will enter normal operation.

Start Up from Total Shut Down

* Double press F6 in Total Shut Down; the locomotive will produce a Long Air Let-off, and begin a full start up procedure.
Diesel Locomotives: The Long Air Let-off is followed by the sound of the engineer’s door opening and closing. Cab Lights turn on, Number Boards come on, and Directional Lighting turns on. Then the Vents open and Fans start up, the Diesel Motor or Motors start up, the Air Pumps turn on, and finally the locomotive enters normal operation.
Electric Locomotives: The Long Air Let-off is followed by the sound of the engineer’s door opening and closing. Cab Lights turn on, Number Boards and Marker Lights turn on, and Directional Lighting turns on. Then the Vents open and Fans start up, the Air Pumps turn on, and finally the locomotive enters normal operation.
Steam Locomotives: After the Long Air Let-off, the Dynamo revs up and the Directional Lighting turns on. Then Cab Lights turn on, followed by the Air Pumps and the Steam Blower turning on, and finally the locomotive enters normal operation.
During the Start Up from Total Shut Down procedure, a Quantum locomotive will not respond to any function key. However, if the throttle is turned up, the Start Up procedure abruptly terminates and the locomotive immediately enters normal operation.
Note: Whenever a locomotive receives a Start Up command, regardless of whether the locomotive is in a Shut Down stage or operating normally, the locomotive will restore all automatic operations and return all feature function states to their initial states as specified in CV55.
Note: Whenever F6 Start Up key is double-pressed in Neutral for a steam locomotive, the Cylinder Cocks will be armed. Cylinder Cocks sounds will play when the throttle is turned up to leave Neutral.

NOTES:
* Double-pressing ensures that Start Up is not entered or exited accidentally. Doubling-pressing is defined as two F6 presses within two seconds. Note that the F6 Key may have to be pressed three times the first time you use it due to the command station and locomotive having different initial states for F6.
* The locomotive enters Neutral with Long Air Let-off if speed step is zero. If speed step is non-zero, the locomotive will enter either forward or reverse.
* Not all steam models have Cylinder Cocks feature.

When all else fails, RTFM.  :-)
Peteski


Bruce
 

Thanks very much for taking the time on your comprehensive detail on this.  I will study it and update you.


Keith Albright
 

Need more info. Is it an advanced consist. What is the consist number. Is it the lead loco. What system. Read the engine that has no sound and lmk cv7 and cv8. Did you hit F8. That would turn off the sound on the lead loco.
Keith 


On Mar 13, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Bruce <perico65@...> wrote:

I have a somewhat similar but not identical problem.  Was operating 2 Walters Proto F units that have factory installed QSI in consist.  Then, for reasons unknown, the sound in one of the units stopped working, yet the lights and motion do work.  I’ll try the 6 3 times  recommendation tonight, but if you think of any other action that might help, please let me know.


Keith Albright
 

So the engine will not move. I have a dozen of these and there are at least 4 dozen in the club that are my responsibility to keep running. The version for the most part tells me the reser steps. Some use a single cv, but there are a bunch that uses the 3 cv step reset depending on vintage. Some need verbal acknowledgment turned off to reset.  I’ve also seen two of these with motor overdraw reading 2 amps on the ramp meter. Power shield protected the decoder but we did replace the motors. That said I love these engines and qsi decoders. 
The. F6 F9 setup is the most common problem I get so thats the first thing I look at. Model railroaders are notorious button pushers. I keep all the manuals on my programming computer with all the F9 F6 info for members to see.
Keith 


On Feb 16, 2022, at 9:19 AM, Keith Albright <fishboy823@...> wrote:

You may have the version that shuts movement down o function 9. Put it back on the track and press function 6   3. Times and see if that helps. On some of those decoders f9 is shutdown
KeithA 


On Feb 16, 2022, at 8:58 AM, stevejohns via groups.io <stevejohns@...> wrote:

Not sure where the best place is to ask this so I'm starting here.

I have an Intermountain F3 with factory sound QSI decoder.  It was in a consist with another non-sound unit, and was working fine.  (Using Digitrax universal consisting method.)  Then, all of a sudden, the sound unit stopped responding to the throttle.  The other unit in the MU was working fine.

I took them out of MU.  Reset the decoder, reprogrammed the address, and still the same non-response.

Interesting thing is that the number board lights are on, and the sound functions are working - including the prime mover revving up as I up the throttle!

So the decoder is talking to the command station and the throttle, is receiving commands, it's just like the motor itself is not responding.  I haven't cracked open the shell yet, but if there were a wiring issue I'd assume that the unit would not respond at all.

Any advice on troubleshooting this further?  I have reached out to Intermountain and going back and forth with them a bit so far.

Thanks for any help!
Steve


Bruce
 
Edited

I now have restored the consist to proper operation.  Let me try to answer all your questions that I can, Keith, tell you what steps I took (that I can remember), and ask you a question growing out of this experience, namely how to retrieve the value of any index? I know how to assign them; I just don’t know how to retrieve them.
It was (and still is) an advanced consist comprised of Walthers Proto Milwaukee Road F9 #69A, the lead unit, and 69C, the trailing reverse direction unit.  In other words, an AA setup.  (BTW, I worked on these engines when I fired for the Milwaukee in the late ‘60’s.)
Consist number = 127.  The consist responds to the alias  68A.
WHAT I DID:
First, I changed out the PAD on my NEC Pro-Cab because the device started going wild and self-typing.  Next, I 
Killed consist 127.  I think in desperation I also tried to delete 69C, the trailing unit that had no sound - the key problem that started all this.  I then, pursuant to Walthers helpful book of instructions, in an attempt to get a Diesel Motor sound in the 69C, assigned primary index 49 a value of 10.  Next I assigned CV52  a volume of 15, the loudest.  Well, that worked and I could hear the engine.  Another problem then unfolded:  No headlight, no mars light and, worse yet, no motion, forward or reverse.  At least those elements did work when she was in consist, only the sound had failed.
For technical reasons I cannot explain, after replacing the NEC pad and reprogramming the consist, all locomotives worked as they are supposed to.
F8 did not turn on the sound when that problem started.  I did not attempt to retrieve cv7  and cv 8.  Curious, were you wanting me to kill the consist then retrieve those from the lead unit 69A, (short address “68”) or from the original problem unit?
Finally, how do you retrieve an index value? 
Let me just add I think QSI back in the downloadable whistle file sound days had the best Nathan M5 sound ever, superior to todays Tsunami, although Loksound comes close.  JMO
Bruce


EdSauers
 

Bruce,

One way is to use CV manager and create a new file, then use the retrieve function to recover the CV values.

You can retrieve one or all CV values!!

Ed Sauers

On 3/14/2022 9:40 PM, Bruce wrote:
I now have restored the consist to proper operation.  Let me try to answer all your questions that I can, Keith, tell you what steps I took (that I can remember), and ask you a question growing out of this experience, namely how to retrieve the value of any index? I know how to assign them; I just don’t know how to retrieve them.
It was (and still is) an advanced consist comprised of Walthers Proto Milwaukee Road F9 #69A, the lead unit, and 69C, the trailing reverse direction unit.  In other words, an AA setup.  (BTW, I worked on these engines when I fired for the Milwaukee in the late ‘60’s.)
Consist number = 127.  The consist responds to the alias  68A.
WHAT I DID:
First, I changed out the PAD on my NEC Pro-Cab because the device started going wild and self-typing.  Next, I
Killed consist 127.  I think in desperation I also tried to delete 69C, the trailing unit that had no sound - the key problem that started all this.  I then, pursuant to Walthers helpful book of instructions, in an attempt to get a Diesel Motor sound in the 69C, assigned primary index 49 a value of 10.  Next I assigned CV52  a volume of 15, the loudest.  Well, that worked and I could hear the engine.  Another problem then unfolded:  No headlight, no mars light and, worse yet, no motion, forward or reverse.  At least those elements did work when she was in consist, only the sound had failed.
For technical reasons I cannot explain, after replacing the NEC pad and reprogramming the consist, all locomotives worked as they are supposed to.
F8 did not turn on the sound when that problem started.  I did not attempt to retrieve cv7  and cv 8.  Curious, were you wanting me to kill the consist then retrieve those from the lead unit 98A, or from the original problem unit?
Finally, how do you retrieve an index value?
Let me just add I think QSI back in the downloadable whistle file sound days had the best Nathan M5 sound ever, superior to todays Tsunami, although Loksound comes close.  JMO
Bruce





Bruce
 

So the retrieve function is couched in the qsi cv manager?   I recall having trouble getting the QSI Programmer, of which CV manager is a component  - right? - to work on Windows 10, and haven’t tried using it again for years.  Too big a hassle, even after following the boot instructions.  So I’d rather learn how to retrieve index values using NCE’s Power Cab, if doable.


peteski7
 

Bruce, QSI decoders have hundreds of indexed registers. Some are single-index, others double-index.  With CV Manager reading them all is a breeze as the program figures out all the indexing. Manually accessing them using programing track on NCE PowerCab is a very tedious process.  You basically have to first write the values to the index CVs, then read or write to the actual CV register indexed by those index CVs.

I highly recommend reading the manual.  You can download the full manual (size of  a small Yellow Pages phone-book - remember those?) from
https://groups.io/g/QSIndustries/files/Manuals  .  This is the same manual I quoted earlier about the shutdown process.

Indexed CVs guide starts on page 96.  Too much to quote here, plus there are some nice pictures to make things clearer.

Peteski


Keith Albright
 

Now we are getting someplace. First I agree 100% on the m5. Every one that hears it says the same thing. You stated that consist 127 has 69a and69c , that is a no no. I want you to take your pro cab and read the actually consist. Press your programming button until you get to browse consist. Hit enter. The first consist that will appear is127. Read that consist and tells me what is listed as the lead loco and trailing loco. Are they long or short address. I asked for the version because different versions handle the F6 and F9 setups differently. Is the qsi a factory install.
I do all my reading and programming of decoders using jmri decoder pro. It’s not unusual for me to do 100 engines sat of show days. I currently have over 500 engines on the computer I use for the club. I’ve been using decoder pro almost since it started. There are just to many variations in decoders to do it any other way. I can usually speed match two engines in a few minutes once I have them in the club roster. We also use it to run our trains using smart phones. Read that consist then 8 and 7 so I know what version you have than get back to me. 
Keith
I will be doing a clinic on trouble shooting, speed matching, and programming decoders at th RPM meet in valley forge pa. in two weeks


On Mar 14, 2022, at 9:40 PM, Bruce <perico65@...> wrote:

I now have restored the consist to proper operation.  Let me try to answer all your questions that I can, Keith, tell you what steps I took (that I can remember), and ask you a question growing out of this experience, namely how to retrieve the value of any index? I know how to assign them; I just don’t know how to retrieve them.
It was (and still is) an advanced consist comprised of Walthers Proto Milwaukee Road F9 #69A, the lead unit, and 69C, the trailing reverse direction unit.  In other words, an AA setup.  (BTW, I worked on these engines when I fired for the Milwaukee in the late ‘60’s.)
Consist number = 127.  The consist responds to the alias  68A.
WHAT I DID:
First, I changed out the PAD on my NEC Pro-Cab because the device started going wild and self-typing.  Next, I 
Killed consist 127.  I think in desperation I also tried to delete 69C, the trailing unit that had no sound - the key problem that started all this.  I then, pursuant to Walthers helpful book of instructions, in an attempt to get a Diesel Motor sound in the 69C, assigned primary index 49 a value of 10.  Next I assigned CV52  a volume of 15, the loudest.  Well, that worked and I could hear the engine.  Another problem then unfolded:  No headlight, no mars light and, worse yet, no motion, forward or reverse.  At least those elements did work when she was in consist, only the sound had failed.
For technical reasons I cannot explain, after replacing the NEC pad and reprogramming the consist, all locomotives worked as they are supposed to.
F8 did not turn on the sound when that problem started.  I did not attempt to retrieve cv7  and cv 8.  Curious, were you wanting me to kill the consist then retrieve those from the lead unit 98A, or from the original problem unit?
Finally, how do you retrieve an index value? 
Let me just add I think QSI back in the downloadable whistle file sound days had the best Nathan M5 sound ever, superior to todays Tsunami, although Loksound comes close.  JMO
Bruce


kjlovesya
 

CV 64 is the query CV.    To query the value of any CV (including index CVs) simply Program On Main --> CV64 = X ,  where X is whatever CV you want to query.

e.g. Want to know what the value of CV 4 is?   POM --> CV64 = 4 , the decoder will 'speak' the value of CV 4.


Bruce
 

Simple and that makes sense, thanks kjlovesya.


Keith Albright
 

The reason I wanted you to read cv 7 and 8 was to find out the version of the decoder. We don’t use the qsi programmer or the lok programmer unless needed. We use decoder pro which takes care of all indexed cvs with the click of a mouse. It’s not unusual for me to do 40 or 50 engines sat morning of show days. Decoder pro is super fast and accurate. I think you problem is how you have mapped your function for single locos and locos in consist. I will give you a simple example that I run during an op session. Engine 55 is a non sound stewart and is paired with an inter mountain sound b unit. The b unit sounds are all set to work in consist. If that b unit is paired with a sound a unit, the horn and bell are set to loco only and do not work in consist. These settings including lights can be set on the main with a click of the mouse and takes less than a minute. The exception is f8 which is always set to work in consist. Some of our members run consists of up to 7 engines all of which are set up the way they want them. I am going to bail on this thread since you use the qsi programmer and not decoder pro. It’s not unusual for one of our consist to contain 4 different types of decoders. 
Good luck
Keith 


On Mar 22, 2022, at 2:02 AM, Bruce <perico65@...> wrote:



[Edited Message Follows]

I now have restored the consist to proper operation.  Let me try to answer all your questions that I can, Keith, tell you what steps I took (that I can remember), and ask you a question growing out of this experience, namely how to retrieve the value of any index? I know how to assign them; I just don’t know how to retrieve them.
It was (and still is) an advanced consist comprised of Walthers Proto Milwaukee Road F9 #69A, the lead unit, and 69C, the trailing reverse direction unit.  In other words, an AA setup.  (BTW, I worked on these engines when I fired for the Milwaukee in the late ‘60’s.)
Consist number = 127.  The consist responds to the alias  68A.
WHAT I DID:
First, I changed out the PAD on my NEC Pro-Cab because the device started going wild and self-typing.  Next, I 
Killed consist 127.  I think in desperation I also tried to delete 69C, the trailing unit that had no sound - the key problem that started all this.  I then, pursuant to Walthers helpful book of instructions, in an attempt to get a Diesel Motor sound in the 69C, assigned primary index 49 a value of 10.  Next I assigned CV52  a volume of 15, the loudest.  Well, that worked and I could hear the engine.  Another problem then unfolded:  No headlight, no mars light and, worse yet, no motion, forward or reverse.  At least those elements did work when she was in consist, only the sound had failed.
For technical reasons I cannot explain, after replacing the NEC pad and reprogramming the consist, all locomotives worked as they are supposed to.
F8 did not turn on the sound when that problem started.  I did not attempt to retrieve cv7  and cv 8.  Curious, were you wanting me to kill the consist then retrieve those from the lead unit 69A, (short address “68”) or from the original problem unit?
Finally, how do you retrieve an index value? 
Let me just add I think QSI back in the downloadable whistle file sound days had the best Nathan M5 sound ever, superior to todays Tsunami, although Loksound comes close.  JMO
Bruce


kjlovesya
 

Hi Keith,

  Having used both Decoder Pro and QSI CV Manager, I can assure you they both work essentially the same way.   The only caveat is the Titan (version 9) in Decoder Pro.   Decoder Pro only has labels for one type of diesel and one type of steam loco - though all types can be programmed.   If you can live with the incorrect prime mover label (Titan version 9 only) , you are good to go.


Best regards,
KJ


 

Keith: You mention that you will be doing a clinic. For those of us that cannot attend, will you be able to do something for us? A print out? A video? A YouTube? Anything would be nice.
Morgan F Bilbo, DCS50, UT4D, UR93, SPROGIIv4, JMRI 4.24, Pennsy modeler 1952