Topics

NCE Advanced consisting and QSI model 106 (Atlas)


waltweber@...
 

What follows appears to be a firmware bug in ho106f00 , build date 14-July-2004.
Is this a bug, and is it addressed in a newer version of firmware?

Summary: use of CV29 "direction bit" interferes with advanced consisting when locomotive is running "reversed in consist".

Details:

Factory configuration for two locos is "long hood forward" , so the CV29 direction bit is 0 (off).
Place the two locos on the track with long hood facing forward for the lead loco, and reverse for the rear loco. Create the two-locomotive advanced consist,
and it functions as expected. (Note, for the rear locomotive, the CV 19 direction bit is correctly set to "1", since it is running reversed when in consist)

Now, delete the consist and re-configure the locomotives for running "short hood forward" by setting CV29 bit 0 (direction bit) to "1".
Place the two locos on the track with short hood facing forward for the lead loco, and facing reverse for the rear loco.
Creating the advanced consist as before, and depending on the direction of speed commands to the consist the locos will move in opposite directions,
either toward each other (until they collide) or away from each other. (Again, examining CV19 the direction bit is "off" for the lead and "on" for the rear loco.)

It appears that the logic calculation is done incorrectly when both CV29 "reversed" is "on" and CV19 "reversed" is also "on".

We've taken to addressing this issue by popping the shell off and rewiring the motor leads, and remapping the headlight leads, but would much rather
use the firmware setting.

Thoughts welcomed.

...walt...


Lou
 

Are you changing CV 19 when you make the consists?

 

Lou

 

From: QSIndustries@groups.io <QSIndustries@groups.io> On Behalf Of waltweber@...
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2020 11:41 PM
To: QSIndustries@groups.io
Subject: [QSIndustries] NCE Advanced consisting and QSI model 106 (Atlas)

 

What follows appears to be a firmware bug in ho106f00 , build date 14-July-2004.
Is this a bug, and is it addressed in a newer version of firmware?

Summary: use of CV29 "direction bit" interferes with advanced consisting when locomotive is running "reversed in consist".

Details:

Factory configuration for two locos is "long hood forward" , so the CV29 direction bit is 0 (off).
Place the two locos on the track with long hood facing forward for the lead loco, and reverse for the rear loco. Create the two-locomotive advanced consist,
and it functions as expected. (Note, for the rear locomotive, the CV 19 direction bit is correctly set to "1", since it is running reversed when in consist)

Now, delete the consist and re-configure the locomotives for running "short hood forward" by setting CV29 bit 0 (direction bit) to "1".
Place the two locos on the track with short hood facing forward for the lead loco, and facing reverse for the rear loco.
Creating the advanced consist as before, and depending on the direction of speed commands to the consist the locos will move in opposite directions,
either toward each other (until they collide) or away from each other. (Again, examining CV19 the direction bit is "off" for the lead and "on" for the rear loco.)

It appears that the logic calculation is done incorrectly when both CV29 "reversed" is "on" and CV19 "reversed" is also "on".

We've taken to addressing this issue by popping the shell off and rewiring the motor leads, and remapping the headlight leads, but would much rather
use the firmware setting.

Thoughts welcomed.

...walt...


waltweber@...
 

Lou -

CV19 is being set only under the control of the command station (NCE) Setup Advanced Consisting feature while on the main.

It is then being removed from the main and examined on the programming track using JMRI - no changes made there.

...walt...


waltweber@...
 

QSI / Kelly Dorf - is the problem described in https://groups.io/g/QSIndustries/message/18384 a reproducible / known issue?

Thanks,

Walt


Steve Haas
 

>>>> QSI / Kelly Dorf - is the problem described in https://groups.io/g/QSIndustries/message/18384 a reproducible / known issue? <<<<

 

Walt,

 

This accurately describes the symptoms I mentioned in response to your inquiry on the NCE-DCC list.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA


waltweber@...
 

Steve,

The NCE post was meant to see if anyone else has experienced the problem - I posted under NCE since our club exclusively uses NCE Advanced Consisting,
follows the methodology recommended by Mark Gurries (and others) in https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-consisting , and I am not
certain how other DCC systems operate with regard to this functionality.

One other member posted that he has also seen the issue with QSI decoders.

I'm hoping to hear from QSI's rep here that (a) this is a known problem with the firmware version referenced, and (b) it is fixed in a newer release.


Steve Haas
 


>>>> The NCE post was meant to see if anyone else has experienced the problem - I posted under NCE since our club exclusively uses NCE Advanced Consisting,
follows the methodology recommended by Mark Gurries (and others) in https://sites.google.com/site/markgurries/home/nce-info/nce-consisting , and I am not
certain how other DCC systems operate with regard to this functionality. <<<<

>>>> One other member posted that he has also seen the issue with QSI decoders. <<<<

>>>> I'm hoping to hear from QSI's rep here that (a) this is a known problem with the firmware version referenced, and (b) it is fixed in a newer release. <<<<

 

Walt,

 

My biggest recollection on this topic is that it was limited to one (or perhaps a limited few) decoder model(s) years ago.  Kelly at QSI would have to speak to the models/revisions

 

Having read about this on one of the lists, if I did run into it, I probably unilaterally would have rewired the engine as that resolved the problem for that particular piece of equipment for eternity.

 

Best,

 

Steve

 

Steve Haas

Snoqualmie, WA


waltweber@...
 

Steve,

"Years ago" is almost certainly going to come into play at our club - the fleet is around 120 strong, built up during our 15+ years of DCC operations.

Mobile decoders from Digitrax, MTH, NCE, QSI, Soundtraxx, ESU/Loksound , TCS, and BLI are present in the fleet. Upgrading everything to a more
consistent standard (maybe 2 basic and 2 sound) is both expensive and time-consuming, so the club defers making a decision.

Fun times, but it keeps me busy.


kelly dorf
 

Hi Steve,

I can certainly send you an upgrade chip, to see if this fixes your problem. Send me the shipping details to qsindustries224@....

Kelly


Greg Elmassian
 

I saw this issue on all early QSI large scale units. I do not think it was ever solved on the first hardware version. I have not tested it on the titans.

For all I know, the bug is still there. I recommend you do not use the reverse bit in cv 29

Greg


waltweber@...
 

Kelly Dorf -

>>>Hi Steve,
>>>
>>>I can certainly send you an upgrade chip, to see if this fixes your problem. Send me the shipping details to qsindustries224@....
>>>
>>>Kelly

Steve didn't post about the issue - I posted the problem, Steve and I (and others) have been discussing it.

Since we have two decoders, I'd like to receive two upgrade chips, if possible. The web interface obscures your email address as above,
should I assume gmail.com ?

Thanks,

Walt Weber


kelly dorf
 

Hi Walt

Yes thats gmail.
qsindustries224@...

Kelly


Walter
 

Kelly,

What Walt is this email meant for?  It does not follow a question I am working. 

 

Still Modeling in H.O. Scale

832 259 4384

 

From: kelly dorf
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 11:12 AM
To: QSIndustries@groups.io
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] NCE Advanced consisting and QSI model 106 (Atlas)

 

Hi Walt

Yes thats gmail.
qsindustries224@...

Kelly

 


kelly dorf
 

Too many Walts!

It was meant for Walt Weber.

Kelly


Walter
 

My fault, did not look at last name, different Kelly.

 

Still Modeling in H.O. Scale

832 259 4384

 

From: kelly dorf
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2020 11:31 AM
To: QSIndustries@groups.io
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] NCE Advanced consisting and QSI model 106 (Atlas)

 

Too many Walts!

It was meant for Walt Weber.

Kelly

 


waltweber@...
 

Update on the status of problem described above --

- Received upgrade chips (PLCC) for two locomotives from Kelly Dorf
- Attempted to remove existing chip in one board to serve as "upgrade test"
- UNwisely decided not to return home for PLCC puller tool, and instead chose to use small picks to "pry up" the chip.
- Socket cracked due to improper removal process - board now dead.

Awaiting arrival of replacement board for the Atlas HO Trainmaster Phase 1a

We pause our program here, waiting for the laughter to die down .....


mike brady
 

Been there done that--sorry Walt.....


On 3/9/2020 10:25 PM, waltweber@... wrote:
Update on the status of problem described above --

- Received upgrade chips (PLCC) for two locomotives from Kelly Dorf
- Attempted to remove existing chip in one board to serve as "upgrade test"
- UNwisely decided not to return home for PLCC puller tool, and instead chose to use small picks to "pry up" the chip.
- Socket cracked due to improper removal process - board now dead.

Awaiting arrival of replacement board for the Atlas HO Trainmaster Phase 1a

We pause our program here, waiting for the laughter to die down .....


Marc Malnekoff
 


Hi Walt,

I have a fleet of QSI equipped power and have cracked a couple of chip holders myself. The chip puller gave me fits. I found a very small flat jeweler's screwdriver will work the trick is to gently pry up one corner at a time working a little between each corner (but not applying alot of pressure) until the chip pops up. It takes some time but it works.

Marc Malnekoff
 


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.


waltweber@...
 

Closing out this thread with final results as follows
(delays due to state-mandated stay-at-home orders for 3 months ....)

- Obtained replacement board for the one with the damaged socket (my fault for being "ham-fisted", as my dad would say).
- Installed latest chip for ho106 , build date 8-1-09, in both locomotives (using PLCC chip-puller)
- Reconfigure both decoders on programming track using JMRI.
- Short-hood-forward operation achieved through setting CV29 bit zero to 1 ("reversed").
- Locomotive runs correctly as a single.
- Build consist (NCE Advanced Consist) with locomotives in back-to-back lashup
(This is accomplished by setting CV19 bit D7 to "1" for the reverse-facing locomotive during consist setup.)
- Rear-facing locomotive does not move in correct direction when in consist

Sadly, the newest version of firmware available (thanks to Kelly Dorf for getting the chips to me) does not fix the issue.

Only solution appears to be to NOT use CV29 bit D0 for "reversed", and instead to swap motor leads and adjust function mapping.

Kelly, there should be enough information here to pass along to the engineers if they want to track the problem.

...walt...