Lionel Challenger


Don Borden <daborden@...>
 

I finally purchased the Lionel Challenger. This is my first QSI adventure and, so far, I am very pleased. But I have found several things that I can not find a fix for.

 

When I am running the double chuff of the articulated disappears. It is very noticeable at the slow speeds and always merges at higher speeds. This problem occurs at all low speeds but only once in a while. If I reverse the direction several times it goes back to a double chuff but not all the time. Is there an adjustment for this?

 

The other problem is with the whistle. The sound is almost impossible to control for short “toots”. I thought that someone on this or the Soundtraxx list discussed a way to better control this. Is there something here that I can better control the whistle?

 

All help will be appreciated.

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@...

 


Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
 

From: "Don Borden" <daborden@comcast.net>
Subject: Lionel Challenger
When I am running the double chuff of the articulated disappears. It is
very noticeable at the slow speeds and always merges at higher speeds.
This problem occurs at all low speeds but only once in a while. If I
reverse the direction several times it goes back to a double chuff but
not all the time. Is there an adjustment for this?
Um Don, its prototypical...the rest of us peed in our pants over how neat it is! What is going on? Well, a set of (2) cylinders will normally give you 4 evenly spaced chuffs per 360 degree rotation (2 from each cylinder and the drivers are 90 degrees out of sync, or lead). A simple articulated will therefore give you 4 chuffs per rotation for each set of cylinders. If the cylinders (front and back) are in sync, you get 4 chuffs, if they are not you get anything from four double beats to 8 clear beats. Since engines (the correct term for one cylinder-driver set) on an articulated can run at slightly different speeds depending on curves, slipping and even tire wear, QSI designed the sound chip to mimic the sound of an articulated's varying sync. As speed increases, the sound becomes a blur...so I'm not sure how you hear distinct chuffs anyway <G>.

For an interesting thought, consider the Mallet or compound articulated. The high pressure cylinders exhaust into the low pressure cylinders, and the low pressure cylinders exhaust up the stack. Therefore, you should really get only 4 "wet" chuffs per rotation on a compound articulated (eg N&W Y series) unless they have a system to allow operation as both simple (usually at high speeds) and compound.

The other problem is with the whistle. The sound is almost impossible to
control for short "toots". I thought that someone on this or the
Soundtraxx list discussed a way to better control this. Is there
something here that I can better control the whistle?
Some folks indicate that pressing another function key first can let you blow better "shorts". you can't really "play" the whistle, but I've been pretty happy with a quick punch of the button. You must remember to let the sound DIE before punching it again or the dying whistle will be cut off.

Happy Rails
Bruce


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

you can't really "play" the whistle, but I've been pretty happy with a
quick punch of the button.<
I'm guessing but this is probably a remnant of DC or tinplate setup. A
DCC only whistle usually uses a sound loop and the F key then starts and
stops it. The QSI unit has a bunch of other stuff built in and so uses a
different format. I would suggest they just go with a sound loop* but it
might not be possible with the DC capabilities.

* As Pat Q asked about downloadable sound I would think a sound loop would
be the only way practical.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


KemacPRR@...
 

In a message dated 2/23/04 11:54:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, daborden@... writes:


On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears at slow speeds.



Since both sets of drivers are not mechanically linked they are bound to go in and out of sych at any speed. You are more prone to hear it at low speed. That is what the QSI sound system tries to duplicate. --------------  Ken McCorry


Don Borden <daborden@...>
 

Bruce, I guess I did not maker it clear. At slow speeds the double chuff sometimes disappears. One time it there the next time it is not. At faster speeds, I agree that the double chuff disappears and merges into one chuffing sound. It is only at the slow speeds that this occurs. I have installed numerous articulated sound cams and also used the articulated settings on Decoder Pro. When this is done the double chuff is always there at slow speeds and merges into one sound at higher speeds. On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears at slow speeds.

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Smith [mailto:smithbf@...]
Sent
: Monday, February 23, 2004 1:06 PM
To: QSIndustries@...
Subject: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

 

> From: "Don Borden"
> Subject: Lionel Challenger

> When I am running the double chuff of the articulated disappears. It is
> very noticeable at the slow speeds and always merges at higher speeds.
> This problem occurs at all low speeds but only once in a while. If I
> reverse the direction several times it goes back to a double chuff but
> not all the time. Is there an adjustment for this?

Um Don, its prototypical...the rest of us peed in our pants over how
neat it is!  What is going on?  Well, a set of (2) cylinders will
normally give you 4 evenly spaced chuffs per 360 degree rotation (2
from each cylinder and the drivers are 90 degrees out of sync, or
lead).  A simple articulated will therefore give you 4 chuffs per
rotation for each set of cylinders.  If the cylinders (front and back)
are in sync, you get 4 chuffs, if they are not you get anything from
four double beats to 8 clear beats.  Since engines (the correct term
for one cylinder-driver set) on an articulated can run at slightly
different speeds depending on curves, slipping and even tire wear, QSI
designed the sound chip to mimic the sound of an articulated's varying
sync.  As speed increases, the sound becomes a blur...so I'm not sure
how you hear distinct chuffs anyway .

For an interesting thought, consider the Mallet or compound
articulated.  The high pressure cylinders exhaust into the low pressure
cylinders, and the low pressure cylinders exhaust up the stack. 
Therefore, you should really get only 4 "wet" chuffs per rotation on a
compound articulated (eg N&W Y series) unless they have a system to
allow operation as both simple (usually at high speeds) and compound.

> The other problem is with the whistle. The sound is almost impossible
> to
> control for short "toots". I thought that someone on this or the
> Soundtraxx list discussed a way to better control this. Is there
> something here that I can better control the whistle?

Some folks indicate that pressing another function key first can let
you blow better "shorts".  you can't really "play" the whistle, but
I've been pretty happy with a quick punch of the button.  You must
remember to let the sound DIE before punching it again or the dying
whistle will be cut off.

Happy Rails
Bruce


Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin
Franklin
                            __
                           /  \
   __<+--+>________________\__/___   ________________________________
  |- ______/ O        O \_______ -| | __  __  __  __  __  __  __  __ |
  | / 4999  PENNSYLVANIA   4999 \ | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
  |/_____________________________\|_|________________________________|
  | O--O     \0  0  0  0/    O--O |   0-0-0                    0-0-0




Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

>On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears at slow speeds<
    Once it disappears if you continue at the same speed does the double chuff come back or does it stay gone. 
 
Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Don Borden <daborden@...>
 

Ken, you are saying that this is what QSI decoders are designed to do? If that is so, I stand corrected. It would be nice if they explained this item.

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@...

-----Original Message-----
From: KemacPRR@... [mailto:KemacPRR@...]
Sent
: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 12:38 AM
To: QSIndustries@...
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

 

In a message dated 2/23/04 11:54:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, daborden@... writes:



On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears at slow speeds.



Since both sets of drivers are not mechanically linked they are bound to go in and out of sych at any speed. You are more prone to hear it at low speed. That is what the QSI sound system tries to duplicate. --------------  Ken McCorry



Don Borden <daborden@...>
 

Jon, I have only tested it on the test tract in my shop. We have a round robin here tomorrow night and I will test it over a long distance then.

 

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@...

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Miller [mailto:atsf@...]
Sent
: Monday, February 23, 2004 11:16 PM
To: QSIndustries@...
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

 

>On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears at slow speeds<

    Once it disappears if you continue at the same speed does the double chuff come back or does it stay gone. 

 

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS




Robert Sponseller
 

Don,
On my BLI PRR T1 at low speeds the double chuff will fade to single chuff then come back to double chuff. This simulates the front and rear driver sets  going in and out of sync. On the real thing this is caused by slight amounts of slippage and or slight differences in driver size.
This feature does show up when using a sound cam. Usually the double chuff is fixed and does not vary as it did on the prototype or on the BLI models.
            Bob Sponseller

----- Original Message -----
From: Don Borden
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 9:17 PM
Subject: RE: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

Bruce, I guess I did not maker it clear. At slow speeds the double chuff sometimes disappears. One time it there the next time it is not. At faster speeds, I agree that the double chuff disappears and merges into one chuffing sound. It is only at the slow speeds that this occurs. I have installed numerous articulated sound cams and also used the articulated settings on Decoder Pro. When this is done the double chuff is always there at slow speeds and merges into one sound at higher speeds. On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears at slow speeds.

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@comcast.net


denlippert <denlippert@...>
 

--- Bruce Smith <smithbf@m...> wrote:
Some folks indicate that pressing another function key first
can let you blow better "shorts". you can't really "play" the
whistle, but I've been pretty happy with a quick punch of the
button. You must remember to let the sound DIE before punching
it again or the dying whistle will be cut off.

Ahhhh HA! I suspected as much! I've had a theory for a week
or so... that the reason the T1's whistle tends to miss the
'short' in a grade-crossing sequence, is because the 'long' is
taking too long to trail off! But I haven't had a chance to
play with it to verify my theory...

Den


denlippert <denlippert@...>
 

--- "Don Borden" <daborden@c...> wrote:
I
have installed numerous articulated sound cams and also used the
articulated settings on Decoder Pro. When this is done the double
chuff is always there at slow speeds and merges into one sound at
higher speeds. On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears
at slow speeds.
Again, this is prototypical... in some cases. Whenever a simple
articulated engine runs, the two sets of cylinders/drivers will
NOT be spinning at EXACTLY the same rotational speed. One set
of drivers may slip slightly more than the other. When going
thru a curve, the wheel speed will be relative to the INSIDE *or*
outside rail, with the opposite drivers slipping just a bit. The
front and rear engine may slip on different rails in that case.
And, as mentioned, the wheel diameter WITHIN AN ENGINE is fairly
critical... but having matched diameters on the two engines in an
articulated is less so.

In short, the front and rear engine cannot stay in sync
with one another. So sometimes the chuffs are out of sync, and
sometimes they're in sync.

Your experience with installing articulated sound cams in models
is irrelevant here... unless the locos had two motors and two
separate drivetrains. In that case, they'd do the same thing.
With one motor, you might as well just have one cam and use the
"articulated" setting on the decoder.

Den


KemacPRR@...
 

In a message dated 2/24/04 4:40:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, daborden@... writes:


Ken, you are saying that this is what QSI decoders are designed to do? If that is


Yes this is what they are designed to do. I get the same result on my PRR T-1
----------------------Ken McCorry


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

>On my BLI PRR T1 at low speeds the double chuff will fade to single chuff then come back to double chuff. This simulates the front and rear driver sets  going in and out of sync.<
 
    Sounds like probably the Lionel will do the same thing if given a long enough run.  As the LL P2K 2-8-8-2 next run will also have sound it's probably a good thing to mention to folks that get one this is the way it's supposed to work.
    There is some confusion on my part about the listings on this site for the engines.  At the top it says _all_ models are DCC equipped but on the line listing it shows some with sound and some without.  Anyone know what this really means?
 
Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Don Borden <daborden@...>
 

Ken, thanks for the information. I will no longer worry about it.

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@...

-----Original Message-----
From: KemacPRR@... [mailto:KemacPRR@...]
Sent
: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 3:02 PM
To: QSIndustries@...
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

 

In a message dated 2/24/04 4:40:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, daborden@... writes:



Ken, you are saying that this is what QSI decoders are designed to do? If that is



Yes this is what they are designed to do. I get the same result on my PRR T-1
----------------------Ken McCorry


Don Borden <daborden@...>
 

Den, thanks for the clarification. I too will play with the whistle a little more and see what I can do with it.

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@...

-----Original Message-----
From: denlippert [mailto:denlippert@...]
Sent
: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 9:11 AM
To: QSIndustries@...
Subject: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

 

--- "Don Borden"
>  I
> have installed numerous articulated sound cams and also used the
> articulated settings on Decoder Pro. When this is done the double
> chuff is always there at slow speeds and merges into one sound at
> higher speeds. On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears
> at slow speeds.

Again, this is prototypical... in some cases.  Whenever a simple
articulated engine runs, the two sets of cylinders/drivers will
NOT be spinning at EXACTLY the same rotational speed.  One set
of drivers may slip slightly more than the other.  When going
thru a curve, the wheel speed will be relative to the INSIDE *or*
outside rail, with the opposite drivers slipping just a bit. The
front and rear engine may slip on different rails in that case.
And, as mentioned, the wheel diameter WITHIN AN ENGINE is fairly
critical... but having matched diameters on the two engines in an
articulated is less so.

In short, the front and rear engine cannot stay in sync
with one another.  So sometimes the chuffs are out of sync, and
sometimes they're in sync. 

Your experience with installing articulated sound cams in models
is irrelevant here... unless the locos had two motors and two
separate drivetrains.  In that case, they'd do the same thing.
With one motor, you might as well just have one cam and use the
"articulated" setting on the decoder.

Den



Don Borden <daborden@...>
 

Bob, everyone has said basically the same thing. Now I know what to look for with the cab-forward when it arrives.

 

Thanks.

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@...

-----Original Message-----
From: rsponseller [mailto:rsponseller@...]
Sent
:
Tuesday, February 24, 2004 8:58 AM
To: QSIndustries@...
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

 

Don,

On my BLI PRR T1 at low speeds the double chuff will fade to single chuff then come back to double chuff. This simulates the front and rear driver sets  going in and out of sync. On the real thing this is caused by slight amounts of slippage and or slight differences in driver size.

This feature does show up when using a sound cam. Usually the double chuff is fixed and does not vary as it did on the prototype or on the BLI models.

            Bob Sponseller

----- Original Message -----

From: Don Borden

Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 9:17 PM

Subject: RE: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

 

Bruce, I guess I did not maker it clear. At slow speeds the double chuff sometimes disappears. One time it there the next time it is not. At faster speeds, I agree that the double chuff disappears and merges into one chuffing sound. It is only at the slow speeds that this occurs. I have installed numerous articulated sound cams and also used the articulated settings on Decoder Pro. When this is done the double chuff is always there at slow speeds and merges into one sound at higher speeds. On the Lionel the double chuff sometimes disappears at slow speeds.

 

Donald Borden

Doylestown, PA

daborden@comcast.net




denlippert <denlippert@...>
 

--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Miller" <atsf@i...> wrote:
Sounds like probably the Lionel will do the same thing if
given a long enough run. As the LL P2K 2-8-8-2 next run will
also have sound it's probably a good thing to mention to folks
that get one this is the way it's supposed to work.
Except that the P2k 2-8-8-2 is a compound loco that probably
SHOULDN'T do that... rather it should have a "muffled" single
chuff. I think.

(I wish more railroad videos would come out on DVD... I just
"got into" the notion of railroad videos a few years ago...
after I already swore off of VHS...)

Den


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

P2k 2-8-8-2 is a compound loco that probably SHOULDN'T do that<
Got me. Your are right and I didn't even think of that. Hope Pat
did<G>!

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Bryan
 

Note:  If the 2-8-8-2 is a true mallet compound engine and not a simple articulated, then there will never be the in-out of sync exhaust phasing as would occur with a simple articulated as the only engine stack exhaust to the atmosphere (excepting for the brief period when starting heavy loads with front and rear cylinder cocks open with high pressure live steam fed simultaneously to both the low (rear) and high (front) pressure cylinders)  would be the stack exhaust from the low-pressure "front engine" and never from the high-pressure "rear engine" as the steam is being used twice - once at high pressure in the rear high-pressure cylinders and then once again as low-pressure steam in the front low-pressure cylinders before being exhausted to the atmosphere through the stack.  The Challenger is a simple articulated and always has the in-out of sync exhaust phasing of two high-pressure engines placed "front" and "rear" under one boiler.  This however begs the question, will QSI decoders for mallet compounds have a "high tractive effort starting mode" which would duplicate the open cylinder cocks for high pressure to all cylinders on both the "front" and "rear" engines combined with the temporary "front" engine higher pressure exhaust chuff through the stack, which would then switch to a true mallet compound mode (i.e., cylinder cocks closed and only low-pressure exhaust steam exhausted from the stack) - that would be just GREAT!!!  Further, I'm waiting for true 3-cylinder decoders for use in my SP 4-10-2's!!!
Eric Berman
aka SPPalmdale
 
 

----- Original Message -----
From: denlippert
Sent: 2/25/2004 9:37:20 AM
Subject: [QSIndustries] Re: Lionel Challenger

--- In QSIndustries@..., "Jon Miller" wrote:
>     Sounds like probably the Lionel will do the same thing if
> given a long enough run.  As the LL P2K 2-8-8-2 next run will
> also have sound it's probably a good thing to mention to folks
> that get one this is the way it's supposed to work.

Except that the P2k 2-8-8-2 is a compound loco that probably
SHOULDN'T do that... rather it should have a "muffled" single
chuff.  I think.

(I wish more railroad videos would come out on DVD... I just
"got into" the notion of railroad videos a few years ago...
after I already swore off of VHS...)

Den


denlippert <denlippert@...>
 

--- "Eric Berman" <ecberman@e...> wrote:
This however begs the question, will QSI decoders for mallet
compounds have a "high tractive effort starting mode" which would
duplicate the open cylinder cocks for high pressure to all cylinders
on both the "front" and "rear" engines combined with the
temporary "front" engine higher pressure exhaust chuff through the
stack, which would then switch to a true mallet compound mode (i.e.,
cylinder cocks closed and only low-pressure exhaust steam exhausted
from the stack) - that would be just GREAT!!!

---

Correct me if I'm wrong... but I *think* that feature was ONLY
on the later N&W Y classes (Y6 and above?)... it was not common
to all (or even MOST) compound mallets.

Den