E7 A&B problem--answers?????


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

    Below is the only answer I have received so far.  It does explain why Digitrax behaves differently, [I think].
____________________________________________________________
Digitrax does not use advanced consisting by default. It does the consisting in the command station by default. In can be set to use it however.

Regards,
Kevin Jones
Louisville, KY

    Could someone explain in layman's terms how consisting is supposed to work.  There appears to be some problems with QSI units right now.  These problems seem to occur on NCE and EasyDCC systems but not Digitrax systems.  I have been told this is because Digitrax doesn't use CV19 anymore and both NCE and EasyDCC follow NMRA rules.
    Please explain (in very simple terms please) how CVs 19, 21, 22, 23, and 24 interact in and out of consisting mode.
Jon Miller


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

not really. On EasyDCC for example, I can use either advanced
(CV19 based) or standard consisting (station based).
However, I lost the beginning, was advanced consisting used on
the affected EasyDCC system(s)? And did the behavior changed when
standard consisting is used? (I haven't consisted my GG1, so
I don't know, yet)
/jw

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Miller [mailto:atsf@inow.com]
Sent: Saturday, 21. February 2004 02:29
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: E7 A&B problem--answers?????


Below is the only answer I have received so far. It does explain why Digitrax behaves differently, [I think].
____________________________________________________________
Digitrax does not use advanced consisting by default. It does the consisting in the command station by default. In can be set to use
it however.

Regards,
Kevin Jones
Louisville, KY


Could someone explain in layman's terms how consisting is supposed to work. There appears to be some problems with QSI units
right now. These problems seem to occur on NCE and EasyDCC systems but not Digitrax systems. I have been told this is because
Digitrax doesn't use CV19 anymore and both NCE and EasyDCC follow NMRA rules.
Please explain (in very simple terms please) how CVs 19, 21, 22, 23, and 24 interact in and out of consisting mode.
Jon Miller


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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

However, I lost the beginning, was advanced consisting used on the affected
EasyDCC system(s)? And did the behavior changed when standard consisting is
used?
jw<
I not sure this has been systematically tested and it should be. It has
been mentioned by Jerry (EasyDCC user);

"I have a large number of advanced consisted power and find it to be the
best way to go"

so we know he is using "advanced". We also know he has set CV21 and 22
correctly. He has followed the instructions in the "big" QSI/BLI manual!
He stated it work fine until he stop or reversed and then he lost control of
the second engine (the engines were M1s). He stated to get the second unit
going again he had to use F6 (sometimes this worked) or remove the tender
and reset the decoder. If F6 started the engine (sometimes) that means it
had to somehow have been shutdown with F9 (with EasyDCC doesn't have).
Another (h8fan) had reported this problem with E7s using NCE system but
he has never joined this discussion again. Don't know if his problem was
resolved or he's busy.

thoughts?????????

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


ARRJERRY@...
 

In a message dated 2/23/2004 7:03:13 AM Central Standard Time, jens.wulf@... writes:

sorry if I mudded the water even more ... I could for the heck not see
that problem other than the expected (EasyDCC based, i.e. functions
sent only to the standard consist address)


Maybe! I have been doing advanced consisting with Easy DCC since it first came out and never had any problems. I have used mostly Soundtraxx decoders but also have some of the other major brands. Although I keep expecting someone to tell me I am doing something stupid, I think the problem we are having is built in to the QSI decoder or QSI CV procedure.
Thanks,
         Jerry S.


ARRJERRY@...
 

In a message dated 2/23/2004 10:01:27 AM Central Standard Time, jens.wulf@... writes:

ah, no, I do not agree. Lets if we talk about the same brand of apple's:
1st: what software version of the EasyDCC station do you use? (Mine: 416)
2nd: if you setup an consist, does the display show STD CONS(IST) or so,
   or does it give hint which type consist (advanced vs. standard) it will
   be setting up. (Mine says always STD, even in the 100-199 range)
3rd: when (after 2)) you let the engine read back it's CV19 (use programming
   on the main, with the engine's original short or long address, and
   "program" (CV-Write-Byte) CV64 with 19, does it read back the consist
   number, or the consist number plus 128 (if reverse) (Mine always reads
   back 0, see also 2))

and no, I have not seen any abnormalities on my GG1 regarding CV's and/or their
procedure. (but see above)
And CVP changed a lot with that latest release of the EasyDCC station (I think
416 is the latest release, for 4 digit anyway)

Hi again jw,
1, I think there have been 4 commercial versions including yours (2 and 4 digit) and between home and clubs I have used them all. 

2, You will note in the Easy DCC manual that you follow different procedures for Standard and Advanced Consisting. The base station has the word Consist on one button that is used for Standard Consisting. This was done as initially the manufactured recommended Standard due to it's simplicity. Using this key will always give you the message "Standard Consist". The manufacturer now has recommended Advanced Consisting in writing. This has come about as Easy DCC has grown in popularity large layouts and layouts using lots of consists have experienced slower reaction and filled up systems. Using the procedure for advanced will show Advanced on the Command Station.
3, If you follow the procedure with Easy DCC, CV19 is set automatically. You have given me an idea, however. Perhaps this is not happening with QSI.
Thanks for your help,
           Jerry S.


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

another quirk in the story. I finally tried to use consisting with
my EasyDCC and the (BLI) GG1, and found it remarkably difficult
to setup a advanced consist, as my EasyDCC station with software
version 416 only seemed to allow me to setup a standard consist.

Alright, I thought, so I did use a standard consist.
As others already mentioned, on an EasyDCC system functions are sent
to the standard consist address (which is supposed to be the lead loco,
but that's the users choice, it may not even exist at all, as in this
case I chose a non-existing address. I made however sure, that all
addresses in that consist were registered at the station as 128 speed
step decoder)
Thus, the GG1 not being at that standard consist address, I could not
control any functions, and as others noted already Cv21/22 have no
affect (the decoder does not even know it is in a consist)
besides that, I could control the loco without problems, even after
some experiments with shorts, power-loss and complete power cycle
of the system.
However, I could assign the GG1's loco address to another throttle,
which function buttons could then control the GG1's functions (F0 and
F1 to F8, EasyDCC does not have more, at least at the software version
416 I have). However, at that moment I lost speed control, probably
because effectively I had now 2 throttles assigned to the GG1 (one via
consist, the other direct). So I had to un-assign the GG1 address from
the throttle to regain speed control via consist.

so finally I programmed via programming on the main CV19 of said
GG1, and removed the standard consist I mentioned above, and assigned
a throttle to that address I put in CV19.
As long I had CV21/22 at 0 (factory default?), all was the same as
before, but once I changed the values of these CV's to have the function
control at consist address enabled, I could control the functions
and the speed.
I again played the game of shorts, power-failures and complete system
power cycle, and never lost control of the GG1 at that consist address
(and no control over F9 - F12 as expected)

thus it seems to be important which EasyDCC software version is in use,
and at least mine (416) does not do "voluntary" advanced consisting,
all are standard consists, as shown on the LCD of the station as well
as by reading back CV19 (via CV64 read-back on the main: C V ONE NINE
IS ZERO)

sorry if I mudded the water even more ... I could for the heck not see
that problem other than the expected (EasyDCC based, i.e. functions
sent only to the standard consist address)

I have another station as well (Uhlenbrock/Modeltreno IntelliBox),
and going to repeat the test cycle there as well.
But as well limited to F0 and F1 - F8, however, I can tell the station
to sent the functions to either the lead loco address or to all locos
in the consist, via "special options". More in about 24h ;)
(I think DigiTrax systems have similar setup options as well)

/jw

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Miller [mailto:atsf@inow.com]
Sent: Saturday, 21. February 2004 03:03
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: E7 A&B problem--answers?????


However, I lost the beginning, was advanced consisting used on the affected
EasyDCC system(s)? And did the behavior changed when standard consisting is
used?
jw<
I not sure this has been systematically tested and it should be. It has
been mentioned by Jerry (EasyDCC user);

"I have a large number of advanced consisted power and find it to be the
best way to go"

so we know he is using "advanced". We also know he has set CV21 and 22
correctly. He has followed the instructions in the "big" QSI/BLI manual!
He stated it work fine until he stop or reversed and then he lost control of
the second engine (the engines were M1s). He stated to get the second unit
going again he had to use F6 (sometimes this worked) or remove the tender
and reset the decoder. If F6 started the engine (sometimes) that means it
had to somehow have been shutdown with F9 (with EasyDCC doesn't have).
Another (h8fan) had reported this problem with E7s using NCE system but
he has never joined this discussion again. Don't know if his problem was
resolved or he's busy.

thoughts?????????

Jon Miller


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ARRJERRY@AOL.COM [mailto:ARRJERRY@AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, 23. February 2004 16:23
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: E7 A&B problem--answers?????


In a message dated 2/23/2004 7:03:13 AM CT, jens.wulf@worldrailfans.org writes:
sorry if I mudded the water even more ... I could for the heck not see
that problem other than the expected (EasyDCC based, i.e. functions
sent only to the standard consist address)
Maybe! I have been doing advanced consisting with Easy DCC since it first came
out and never had any problems. I have used mostly Soundtraxx decoders but also
have some of the other major brands. Although I keep expecting someone to tell
me I am doing something stupid, I think the problem we are having is built in
to the QSI decoder or QSI CV procedure.
ah, no, I do not agree. Lets if we talk about the same brand of apple's:
1st: what software version of the EasyDCC station do you use? (Mine: 416)
2nd: if you setup an consist, does the display show STD CONS(IST) or so,
or does it give hint which type consist (advanced vs. standard) it will
be setting up. (Mine says always STD, even in the 100-199 range)
3rd: when (after 2)) you let the engine read back it's CV19 (use programming
on the main, with the engine's original short or long address, and
"program" (CV-Write-Byte) CV64 with 19, does it read back the consist
number, or the consist number plus 128 (if reverse) (Mine always reads
back 0, see also 2))

and no, I have not seen any abnormalities on my GG1 regarding CV's and/or their
procedure. (but see above)
And CVP changed a lot with that latest release of the EasyDCC station (I think
416 is the latest release, for 4 digit anyway)

cheers/jw


denlippert <denlippert@...>
 

--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, ARRJERRY@A... wrote:
Maybe! I have been doing advanced consisting with Easy DCC
since it first came out and never had any problems. I have used
mostly Soundtraxx decoders but also have some of the other major
brands. Although I keep expecting someone to tell me I am doing
something stupid, I think the problem we are having is
built in to the QSI decoder or QSI CV procedure.
I've seen enough evidence to prove "to me" that this is absolutely
the case. I have not yet consisted any BLI locos (I have no
E's or GG1's... and consisting a Hudson and an N&W "A" would
look kinda silly...)... but I've consisted mixes of NCE, TCS,
Soundtraxx, Lenz, Atlas, and Digitrax decoders together (using
advanced consisting on an NCE system) literally a thousand times
or more without issues. (Well, okay... ONE issue: if a TCS
decoder's CV29 direction-bit is flipped to reverse, it IGNORES
that when you consist it!).

Den


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

Finally I got advanced consisting to work w/ my EasyDCC system
(short story: key sequence SETUP CONSIST will lead you into the
STD CONS menu and key sequence SETUP Y will lead you into the
ADV CONS menu. So far for preference ... and the just downloaded
manual 418 does not talk in favor of advanced consists. I have
version 416. So more EasyDCC versions in town.)

and, "yehaa", the problems as described before come to light.
(coma on loco which had been powered down does not react on
it's advanced consist address till addressed at least once
by it's primary 2/4 digit address)
And suddenly CV21 and CV22 became "inactive" ... i.e. no
function control on second loco of that (advanced) consist

Recall: if I setup the consist "manually" by programming CV19
bypassing the station and using that address on the throttle
directly, as I did yesterday, CV21 and CV22 work, and all loco's
in the consist respond to all functions as enabled in these CV's
(I could only test F0fwd/rev and F1-F8)

If however I use the EasyDCC to setup and control the advanced
consist, they don't work. Only the first loco responds to
functions. Huh?

Well, I did took a look at the LCD panel of my station, and
upon hitting the function keys, I see in the panel appearing
"loco NNNN functions", whereas NNNN was the 4 digit address
of the 1st unit in that advanced consist as setup on the
EasyDCC station.
This makes me believe that my EasyDCC system does not send
function packages to the (advanced) consist address but to
the 2/4 digit primary address of the 1st loco in that (advanced)
consist.
And such behavior is identical to EasyDCC standard consists.
(which are the same as for example Universal consists in
DigiTrax systems)
And which may explain why the 1st engine wakes up while the
2nd doesn't: it is receiving a function package to it's primary
address!

btw., I found one more way to wake up the engine, and the same
way another probable bug: send a programming on the main packet
to it's primary address.
If the engine is in such a (adv.consist) coma, for example the
very first CV64 verbal CV read-back does nothing but wakes the
engine up, but no verbal CV readback occurs.
The second attempt (on now "awake" engine) the verbal CV readback
works. True coma? 2 stages wake-up?

/jw

-----Original Message-----
From: ARRJERRY@AOL.COM [mailto:ARRJERRY@AOL.COM]
Sent: Monday, 23. February 2004 16:23
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: E7 A&B problem--answers?????


In a message dated 2/23/2004 7:03:13 AM Central Standard Time, jens.wulf@worldrailfans.org writes:


sorry if I mudded the water even more ... I could for the heck not see
that problem other than the expected (EasyDCC based, i.e. functions
sent only to the standard consist address)


Maybe! I have been doing advanced consisting with Easy DCC since it first came out and never had any problems. I have used mostly
Soundtraxx decoders but also have some of the other major brands. Although I keep expecting someone to tell me I am doing something
stupid, I think the problem we are having is built in to the QSI decoder or QSI CV procedure.
Thanks,
Jerry S.


Pat Quinn <quinn1947@...>
 

I got some feedback from the Quantum programmer today that leads me
to understand that you may have to press some of these command
requests twice to get them to work. It is something about the way
commands are organized into groups. Apparently some DCC controllers
need the first command just to transfer to the proper group
assignment setup. I'm sure I am saying this badly - but, anyway - DO
try requesting your function a second time if it seems to be
unsresponsive to your first request. -Pat Quinn
---------------------------------------------------------------


--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Jens Wulf &#92;(WRF&#92;)"
<jens.wulf@w...> wrote:
Finally I got advanced consisting to work w/ my EasyDCC system
(short story: key sequence SETUP CONSIST will lead you into the
STD CONS menu and key sequence SETUP Y will lead you into the
ADV CONS menu. So far for preference ... and the just downloaded
manual 418 does not talk in favor of advanced consists. I have
version 416. So more EasyDCC versions in town.)

and, "yehaa", the problems as described before come to light.
(coma on loco which had been powered down does not react on
it's advanced consist address till addressed at least once
by it's primary 2/4 digit address)
And suddenly CV21 and CV22 became "inactive" ... i.e. no
function control on second loco of that (advanced) consist

Recall: if I setup the consist "manually" by programming CV19
bypassing the station and using that address on the throttle
directly, as I did yesterday, CV21 and CV22 work, and all loco's
in the consist respond to all functions as enabled in these CV's
(I could only test F0fwd/rev and F1-F8)

If however I use the EasyDCC to setup and control the advanced
consist, they don't work. Only the first loco responds to
functions. Huh?

Well, I did took a look at the LCD panel of my station, and
upon hitting the function keys, I see in the panel appearing
"loco NNNN functions", whereas NNNN was the 4 digit address
of the 1st unit in that advanced consist as setup on the
EasyDCC station.
This makes me believe that my EasyDCC system does not send
function packages to the (advanced) consist address but to
the 2/4 digit primary address of the 1st loco in that (advanced)
consist.
And such behavior is identical to EasyDCC standard consists.
(which are the same as for example Universal consists in
DigiTrax systems)
And which may explain why the 1st engine wakes up while the
2nd doesn't: it is receiving a function package to it's primary
address!

btw., I found one more way to wake up the engine, and the same
way another probable bug: send a programming on the main packet
to it's primary address.
If the engine is in such a (adv.consist) coma, for example the
very first CV64 verbal CV read-back does nothing but wakes the
engine up, but no verbal CV readback occurs.
The second attempt (on now "awake" engine) the verbal CV readback
works. True coma? 2 stages wake-up?

/jw

-----Original Message-----
From: ARRJERRY@A... [mailto:ARRJERRY@A...]
Sent: Monday, 23. February 2004 16:23
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: E7 A&B problem--answers?????


In a message dated 2/23/2004 7:03:13 AM Central Standard Time,
jens.wulf@w... writes:


sorry if I mudded the water even more ... I could for the heck not
see
that problem other than the expected (EasyDCC based, i.e. functions
sent only to the standard consist address)


Maybe! I have been doing advanced consisting with Easy DCC since it
first came out and never had any problems. I have used mostly
Soundtraxx decoders but also have some of the other major brands.
Although I keep expecting someone to tell me I am doing something
stupid, I think the problem we are having is built in to the QSI
decoder or QSI CV procedure.
Thanks,
Jerry S.


ARRJERRY@...
 

In a message dated 2/24/2004 8:35:31 PM Central Standard Time, jens.wulf@... writes:

Recall: if I setup the consist "manually" by programming CV19
bypassing the station and using that address on the throttle
directly, as I did yesterday, CV21 and CV22 work, and all loco's
in the consist respond to all functions as enabled in these CV's
(I could only test F0fwd/rev and F1-F8)


jw,
Great effort. If I understand you correctly, by not using the Easy DCC shortcuts you have been able to Advance Consist Two BLI loco's? If this is true, I will renew my E7 order. Is there any other details to your procedure? Did you use the program track? It would be worthwhile to send us your steps so we can duplicate it.
I have attached a recent update from CVP Products which shows their change in interest in advanced consisting when dealing with numerous consists.
Thanks a lot,
         Jerry S.


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

> Is there any other details to your procedure? Did you use the program track? It would be worthwhile to send us your steps so we can duplicate it.<
    While not totally finished DecoderPro does have the consist page for BLI engines.  Some systems might be able to write the page directly and some might need to use a PowerPax.  While I have not tried it* you should be able to set up a consist this way.  DecoderPro works with all systems including EasyDCC.
 
Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


bb4024 <tjones@...>
 

In light of the recent posts, I played a little more with my E7s.
Using my NCE and programing on the main,I first set up CV21 on the
second loco(#928). For the sake of testing I programmed it to 255
which enables F0-F8 on that loco when consisted. I then made an
advanced consist (consist # 76) with 905 as the lead loco and with
#928 as the second loco. I then turned the system off & on again. I
selected 905 and my display indicated it was a consist (Readout
said "CON:905") I then pushed F6 twice and the lead unit (#905)
started. #928 did nothing (as I stated in my previous post). After
selecting #928 I was able to start the trailing unit again with F6.
Reselecting #905(CON:905), both units would travel together with
engine sounds, however as before no functions worked on #928. Then
just for grins I decided to select #76(the consist address). The
display on my NCE said "LOC:76" But both engines consisted as they
should. ALSO ALL FUNCTIONS WORKED IN #928!!!! Yea! I thought a
solution had been found. But not quite. I turned the system off and
then on again, selected #76, and nothing.... Neither engine would
turn on. I individually selected both engines and turned them on and
then reselected #76 and we were all happy again.
A partial solution but still not acceptable. Train crews
shouldn't have to sort through a list of consist numbers to find his
locos, And you still have the problem of not being able to restart
an engine using the consist # if an engine shuts down.
Hopefully somemore food for thought, and more hopefully some
clues to a permenant fix.

tj


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

Jerry, I just used the CV19 method as well as Joe in his post
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/easydcc/message/2576
(the EasyDCC user-group archive is public)

since my BLI GG1 wants a lot of current, I do use programming
on the main (PRGM MAIN TRK / CV / 19 / Byte / value 1 to 99
maybe plus 128 for reverse dir.) and wait for the verbal
feedback (unless disabled)
then register the address as loco with 128 speed steps, and
assign it to a throttle.
But also evaluate tj's post (bb4024) with his NCE system.

I think we are on to something here, my thoughts are:

a) QSI/BLI is in charge to get the wake-up on advanced-consist-address
fixed (or better documented?)

b) NCE, CVP etc. are in charge to get the function control in
any type of consists but particularly advanced consists fixed
(or better documented?), as CV21/22 already work fine in the QSI
dec's, just these stations do "happily" bypass the provided path
for function-control of (advanced) consists

your thoughts? all?

/jw

-----Original Message-----
From: ARRJERRY@AOL.COM [mailto:ARRJERRY@AOL.COM]
Sent: Wednesday, 25. February 2004 15:58
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Re: E7 A&B problem--answers?????


In a message dated 2/24/2004 8:35:31 PM Central Standard Time, jens.wulf@worldrailfans.org writes:


Recall: if I setup the consist "manually" by programming CV19
bypassing the station and using that address on the throttle
directly, as I did yesterday, CV21 and CV22 work, and all loco's
in the consist respond to all functions as enabled in these CV's
(I could only test F0fwd/rev and F1-F8)


jw,
Great effort. If I understand you correctly, by not using the Easy DCC shortcuts you have been able to Advance Consist Two BLI
loco's? If this is true, I will renew my E7 order. Is there any other details to your procedure? Did you use the program track? It
would be worthwhile to send us your steps so we can duplicate it.
I have attached a recent update from CVP Products which shows their change in interest in advanced consisting when dealing with
numerous consists.
Thanks a lot,
Jerry S.


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