Broadway LTD. advanced sound


Val Pistilli <vpistilli@...>
 

Do you lay awake at night wondering what your Broadway LTD loco would sound like with the Back EMF functions activated? Well, we don't have to wait any longer!!

I have come up with a DCC way of turning on the Back EMF functions that BLI had to turn off for MTH reasons.

Enter value of 20 into CV 3 and 4. Yes, I know that is high, but trust me, it works here.

The nervous and jerky motion of the locos smoothes out. The jackrabbit starts and stops smooth out.

Put your finger in front of the engine and stop it from moving. The drivers stop. Put a train on it that is too heavy, and it will stop. Just like the prototype!

Have the loco pull a train at track speed. Then slow down to a lower speed and listen to the volume. It lowers! You may have to read the manual to set the proper function if you don't hear it.

Just thought you might like to know!!

I must credit Charlie Carangi for coming up with the answer for DC. He also knows how to lower the starting voltage from around 9 to 6.5volts!

Happy Railroading!!

So Broadway, where is my PRR H9? I would settle for an I1. How about an L1?

Val Pistilli
www.gatsme.org
www.ij2006.org
www.phillynmra.org


Bruce Norton <bruce@...>
 

Val,
 
I don't consider that you have enabled the BEMF control function given the test results you advised!
 
If BEMF control is on then when you stop the loco moving forward the drivers should still be turning at a fixed rate equivalent to the speed prior to stopping motion.
Similarly if the loco slows down going up hill or speeds up going down then that is not a function of BEMF being on.
 
Consider BEMF control to be "cruise control".
 
Bruce Norton
Lenz User Set 01, LZ100 V 3.5, LH100 V3.0,  LH30 V3.0
Compact V 3.1
Roco LokMaus V2.3

----- Original Message -----
 
Do you lay awake at night wondering what your Broadway LTD loco would
sound like with the Back EMF functions activated? Well, we don't have
to wait any longer!!

I have come up with a DCC way of turning on the Back EMF functions that
BLI had to turn off for MTH reasons.

Enter value of 20 into CV 3 and 4. Yes, I know that is high, but trust
me, it works here.

The nervous and jerky motion of the locos smoothes out. The jackrabbit
starts and stops smooth out.

Put your finger in front of the engine and stop it from moving.  The
drivers stop.  Put a train on it that is too heavy, and it will stop.
Just like the prototype!

Have the loco pull a train at track speed. Then slow down to a lower
speed and listen to the volume. It lowers! You may have to read the
manual to set the proper function if you don't hear it.

Just thought you might like to know!!

I must credit Charlie Carangi for coming up with the answer for DC. He
also knows how to lower the starting voltage from around 9 to 6.5volts!


cv12steve <CV12Steve@...>
 

Only consider BEMF "cruise control" if you are MTH.
Properly implemented (Zimo decoders, for example), BEMF can be
employed for a number of tasks, such as improved low speed
performance, especially in steam locos were it can help overcome
minor rod binding (very useful in N and narrow gauge), and all locos
through complex track works, and, if not adjusted to fade out at
higher speeds, it can also maintain speed on grades.
The MTH patents seek to define the latter as the purpose for BEMF in
model railroading. As long as BLI accepts that definition, their use
of BEMF will be under contention.

Stephen

--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Bruce Norton" <bruce@o...>
wrote:

<snip>
Consider BEMF control to be "cruise control".
<snip>


Jim Hoover
 

--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, Val Pistilli <vpistilli@c...>
(snip) Have the loco pull a train at track speed. Then slow down to
a lower speed and listen to the volume. It lowers! You may have to
read the manual to set the proper function if you don't hear it. <

Hi Val

I'm pretty sure this effect isn't due to BEMF.

I think it is because of having momentum effect programmed into CV3
and 4.

As you saw, the decoder makes adjustments to the exhaust volume to
simulate what the loco would sound like while it is not working hard
while slowing down, and the opposite while speeding up but BEMF is
not needed for this type of effect.

The decoder knows to simulate the effect because the momentum
settings are causing there to be a temporary difference between the
speed on your throttle and the speed of the loco on the track. Once
the loco speed falls or rises to the speed on the throttle, the
exhaust volume will return to normal, simulating the loco reaching
the speed that is set on the throttle.

There can be a role for BEMF to play in the changing exhaust volume
but it will show itself in a different way from the example above.

If BEMF is the reason for a change in exhaust volume, the volume will
change without any change of the throttle. When the BEMF finds that
it has to apply more or less power to the motor to keep the loco
speed constant, it will make the exhaust volume raise or lower to
reflect the change in rate of work the loco is producing. This
effect can be in addition to the volume changes resulting from the
momentum settings but is easily distinguishable from them, just hold
the tender so the drivers slip while not changing the throttle and if
the volume changes, it is due to BEMF simulating a higher rate of
work by the loco.

As a side bar regarding the MTH legal actions, if I understand the
situation correctly, the legal tangles would not prevent the use of
BEMF for the purpose of adjusting the exhaust volume, it only affects
it for regulating a loco's speed within certain limits of resolution.

The results of sensing a motor's BEMF can be used for various
purposes, and these uses are neither exclusive nor inclusive of each
other. In other words, if you don't use it for speed regulation, it
doesn't mean you can't use it for automatically controlling aspects
of a loco's sound.

Regards,
Jim Hoover


Richard Stern <rstern1@...>
 

The increase/decrease in exhaust volume depending on
acceleration/deceleration is noticeable with CVs 3 and 4 set to "0".

CVs 3 and 4 control acceleration and deceleration respectively, and are
NMRA standards for this purpose (not manufacturer option), so it is
unlikely QSI would have used them to activate BEMF.

I have also set fairly high values for CVs 3 and 4 to smooth out
operation of my new AC4. It helps somewhat, but starting on hills under
load is still jerky. Not nearly the nearly consistently imperceptible,
controlled crawl that I can get from a Lenz BEMF decoder installed with
a Soundtraxx DSX.

Soundtraxx DSX decoders have a Dynamic Digital Exhaust (DDE) feature
that changes tone/volume in response to acceleration/deceleration,
though it's somewhat less noticeable than with the QSI. Since the DSX
does not control motor voltage at all, it is calculated based on recent
throttle settings rather than BEMF.

Rs

-----Original Message-----
From: Val Pistilli [mailto:vpistilli@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 8:19 PM
To: digitrax@yahoogroups.com; qsindustries@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Val Pistilli
Subject: [QSIndustries] Broadway LTD. advanced sound

Do you lay awake at night wondering what your Broadway LTD loco would
sound like with the Back EMF functions activated? Well, we don't have
to wait any longer!!

I have come up with a DCC way of turning on the Back EMF functions
that
BLI had to turn off for MTH reasons.

Enter value of 20 into CV 3 and 4. Yes, I know that is high, but trust
me, it works here.

The nervous and jerky motion of the locos smoothes out. The jackrabbit
starts and stops smooth out.

Put your finger in front of the engine and stop it from moving. The
drivers stop. Put a train on it that is too heavy, and it will stop.
Just like the prototype!

Have the loco pull a train at track speed. Then slow down to a lower
speed and listen to the volume. It lowers! You may have to read the
manual to set the proper function if you don't hear it.

Just thought you might like to know!!

I must credit Charlie Carangi for coming up with the answer for DC. He
also knows how to lower the starting voltage from around 9 to
6.5volts!

Happy Railroading!!

So Broadway, where is my PRR H9? I would settle for an I1. How about
an L1?

Val Pistilli
www.gatsme.org
www.ij2006.org
www.phillynmra.org



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


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Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

so it is unlikely QSI would have used them to activate BEMF.<
It's my understanding that the decoders all have BEMF in them and it's
active. It's just not active to do the items referred to in the note. Even
speeds up and down hill, etc.
Also Lionel still advertises these features so wish someone with a
Lionel engine/s would report in. It's also my understanding that MTH will
have to challenge Lionel or forget about the patent, period. Maybe this is
what everyone is waiting for.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


bobspf
 

Interesting point. I gather from your and previous posts you are referring
to controlling the sound "pitch", for lack of a better word, with load, this
is not at issue in the patent, and BLI is using it. I don't know if any or
all of the foregoing is true, I am just trying to understand the discussion
point.

Bob Zoeller

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Miller" <atsf@inow.com>
To: <QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Broadway LTD. advanced sound


so it is unlikely QSI would have used them to activate BEMF.<
It's my understanding that the decoders all have BEMF in them and it's
active. It's just not active to do the items referred to in the note.
Even
speeds up and down hill, etc.
Also Lionel still advertises these features so wish someone with a
Lionel engine/s would report in. It's also my understanding that MTH will
have to challenge Lionel or forget about the patent, period. Maybe this
is
what everyone is waiting for.


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I gather from your and previous posts you are referring
to controlling the sound "pitch", for lack of a better word, with load<
My comment about BEMF still being used is a quote from a phone
conversation with BLI/QSI interface folks. I know that it's not used with
the items said but have never really checked to see what it is used with.
Basically they just _disconnected_ a couple of things in software. Those
_things_ should work in the early 4-6-4s before the software was changed,
for those that have that engine.
I doubt very much if there will be any _jumper_ changes as I suspect you
would need to reprogram the chip to get all the features back.
As Lionel is the "really big gorilla" compared to MTH (ability to have
lawyers and fight in court) it will be interesting to see if MTH challenges
them! I haven't head anything yet, has anyone???????

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Richard Stern <rstern1@...>
 

I spoke with tech support at BLI yesterday, because I'm unhappy with
slow speed performance of my new Cab Forward. He told me that the new
products do not have BEMF in any manner.

He agreed that starting voltage and the starting speed step are both
quite high (starts somewhere around speed step 15-20) and jerky. He
said that, once the lawsuit is settled, BLI will consider whether to do
an exchange of the chips with registered purchasers. However, no
corporate policy has been decided on this.

Given how long litigation takes, and how much it costs, don't hold your
breath! I'd really like to know if anyone has used a small BEMF decoder
(like a Lenz) in one of these engines just to control the motor.

rs

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Miller [mailto:atsf@inow.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:42 PM
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Broadway LTD. advanced sound
<snip>
It's my understanding that the decoders all have BEMF in them and
it's
active. It's just not active to do the items referred to in the note.
<snip>
Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS







Yahoo! Groups Links




bobspf
 

As usual I must be missing something. If you are not running unattended
museum loop running, if you can generally traverse a yard ladder without
stalling, and with 128 speed steps selected you can smoothly go from start
through crawl to top speed (given that a BLI loco may sometimes "start" at
about step 15) , what other feature is possible with BEMF?

With clean wheels and track, the above is possible without BEMF with nearly
every loco I run and nothing including BEMF seems to solve a dog like my P1K
Erie-built (I have one last resort if I can get my fellow club member with
working DecoderPro to take 'em on)

Will BEMF allow us to ignore wheels and track cleanliness for longer
periods? Or does it significantly help the whiplash effect of MUed locos
without matched speed tables? Are these benefits available without
heavy-handed so-called "cruise control"?

Being curious, not argumentative here. Or are these questions on-topic for
this list?

Bob Zoeller


digilox1
 

Bob,
Simply put, a GOOD BEMF design, not the ones currently offered by
Digitrax, QSI(prior to the MTH...) or even Lenz does exactly what you
expect a loco to do and not what the mechanism of same wants you to
do. With BEMF there are no ""starts" at about step 15".

A decoder with good BEMF will make you redefining your concept of
smoothness.

Decoders with good BEMF can be configured to gradually lower the
BEMF effect with speed increasing, similar to the CV2/6/5 speed curve.

Neither does BEMF cure pick up problems, nor does it eliminate the
need for speed matching locos at THIS time.
Time will tell what the Lenz USP and NMRA bidirectional communication
will offer to add more user convenience.

I`d be very surprised if your Erie-built won`t be your best running
loco with a Zimo decoder installed.

Regards,
Manfred


--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Zoeller" <bobspf@w...>
wrote:
As usual I must be missing something. If you are not running
unattended
museum loop running, if you can generally traverse a yard ladder
without
stalling, and with 128 speed steps selected you can smoothly go
from start
through crawl to top speed (given that a BLI loco may
sometimes "start" at
about step 15) , what other feature is possible with BEMF?

With clean wheels and track, the above is possible without BEMF
with nearly
every loco I run and nothing including BEMF seems to solve a dog
like my P1K
Erie-built (I have one last resort if I can get my fellow club
member with
working DecoderPro to take 'em on)

Will BEMF allow us to ignore wheels and track cleanliness for longer
periods? Or does it significantly help the whiplash effect of MUed
locos
without matched speed tables? Are these benefits available without
heavy-handed so-called "cruise control"?

Being curious, not argumentative here. Or are these questions on-
topic for
this list?

Bob Zoeller


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

The quality of the BEMF coding can make a lot of difference with loco
performance. The TTX site* some time ago had a review of the various
manufactures and I believe it and many others think the best is Zimo with
Lenz running a close second. I have some Zimo (early) and Digitrax**
decoders w/BEMF and to me there is no comparison. I use these decoders in
switch engines (steam-brass-can motors). I don't have diesels so have never
check MUed engines. Dither from TCS has taken away some of the reasons to
use BEMF for switchers.
I don't think it will help with dirty track but does smooth out the
regular model motors and help with low speed. The TTX site has charts and
test and reading all this is better than any verbiage I can give.

*go to Product Comparisons and then Load Compensated Decoders Tested by
Stefano!

**one of the Digitrax BEMF stopped working so I have to leave it in normal
mode (a CV number)

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Richard Stern <rstern1@...>
 

From my perspective, the issue is slow starting and stopping. I have
some Lenz decoders, and one installed in a brass Mike with Soundtraxx
and cam on the drivers. The sound of this engine starting is as close
to the real thing as I can think of -- a woosh as the drivers barely
turn that closely duplicates what I've seen and heard from the
prototype, very gradually and smoothly increasing in cadence to a
reasonable beat at about 25-40 mph. It's pretty hard to describe in
writing, but that's what I'm after. Switching with this Mike provides
very satisfying sounds, closely duplicating what I've seen in the
prototype.

The jerky starting on the AC4 is quite noticeable by comparison, and
sound makes this performance even more apparent. It is worse when the
engine is starting up hill under load, and worse when operating in
reverse (I also noted that the mechanism noise overall is greater in
reverse).

By the way, those brass locos with the Lenz decoders, as is typical of
these older locos, have some significant binds in their mechanisms, so
that as drivers turn you can see consistent hesitation at a particular
point in the cycle. It's proven beyond my mechanical ability to
straighten this out, either through rebuilding the mechanism,
requartering, or whatever. The Lenz BEMF decoders really address this
problem, making the binding invisible. I found them much more effective
than Digitrax' BEMF. Separately Jon Miller wrote that Zimo decoders
have also gotten high marks from Tony's, so I guess I'll have to try
them as well.

rs

If you are not running unattended
museum loop running, if you can generally traverse a yard ladder
without
stalling, and with 128 speed steps selected you can smoothly go from
start
through crawl to top speed (given that a BLI loco may sometimes
"start" at
about step 15) , what other feature is possible with BEMF?

With clean wheels and track, the above is possible without BEMF with
nearly
every loco I run and nothing including BEMF seems to solve a dog like
my
P1K
Erie-built (I have one last resort if I can get my fellow club member
with
working DecoderPro to take 'em on)

Will BEMF allow us to ignore wheels and track cleanliness for longer
periods? Or does it significantly help the whiplash effect of MUed
locos
without matched speed tables? Are these benefits available without
heavy-handed so-called "cruise control"?

Being curious, not argumentative here. Or are these questions on-topic
for
this list?

Bob Zoeller



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor


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Bryan
 

I've got five of the AC's.  Two of them exhibited rather jerky motion when I first test ran them (on both DCC and DC) and three of them ran somewhat smoothly, right out of the box.  I then lubricated all the external bearing surfaces and broke in all of the engines by running them on break-in rollers for 30 minutes in each direction and at varying speeds up to full throttle.  I then re-test ran all the engines and all demonstrated much improved running characteristics, both starting and at realistic speeds up to 30 mph.   On DCC, all the engines just now begin to crawl at speed step 1 and accelerate/run smoothly through all the rest of the speed range.
 
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: 4/21/2004 2:24:59 PM
Subject: RE: [QSIndustries] Broadway LTD. advanced sound

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digilox1
 

Jon, Bob,
http://tonystrains.com/technews/stef_load_comp.htm
Unfortunately this test is from January 2002.
No Digitrax series3, no Zimo MX63 and no QSI are included.

Regards,
Manfred




--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Miller" <atsf@i...> wrote:
The quality of the BEMF coding can make a lot of difference
with loco
performance. The TTX site* some time ago had a review of the
various
manufactures and I believe it and many others think the best is
Zimo with
Lenz running a close second. I have some Zimo (early) and
Digitrax**
decoders w/BEMF and to me there is no comparison. I use these
decoders in
switch engines (steam-brass-can motors). I don't have diesels so
have never
check MUed engines. Dither from TCS has taken away some of the
reasons to
use BEMF for switchers.
I don't think it will help with dirty track but does smooth out
the
regular model motors and help with low speed. The TTX site has
charts and
test and reading all this is better than any verbiage I can give.

*go to Product Comparisons and then Load Compensated Decoders
Tested by
Stefano!

**one of the Digitrax BEMF stopped working so I have to leave it in
normal
mode (a CV number)

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Unfortunately this test is from January 2002.
No Digitrax series3, no Zimo MX63 and no QSI are included.<
True but it answers Bob's question about "what does BEMF do" much better
than any wording I could type here.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


bobspf
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Stern" <rstern1@cinci.rr.com>

The sound of this engine starting is as close
to the real thing as I can think of -- a woosh as the drivers barely
turn that closely duplicates what I've seen and heard from the
prototype, very gradually and smoothly increasing in cadence to a
reasonable beat at about 25-40 mph. It's pretty hard to describe in
writing, but that's what I'm after. Switching with this Mike provides
very satisfying sounds, closely duplicating what I've seen in the
prototype.
I've had better luck with my PRR M1b than you describe with your AC4, so I
get pretty much the same sound and operating experience you describe with my
BLI as is.
The jerky starting on the AC4 is quite noticeable by comparison, and
sound makes this performance even more apparent. It is worse when the
engine is starting up hill under load, and worse when operating in
reverse (I also noted that the mechanism noise overall is greater in
reverse).
The mechanism noise in reverse is definitely noticable in my M1b as well.
If I kill the sound on the M1b in forward, it is definitely silent running
as far as gear noise. In reverse, the gear noise can be heard over the
sound (which I typically set at 35).

Bob Zoeller


Bob Lyon <rbtwlyon@...>
 

What? Waking up from my nap... did somebody suggest an I1 from BLI?? :)

Bob Lyon
Santa Barbara, CA.

-----Original Message-----
From: Val Pistilli [mailto:vpistilli@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 5:19 PM
To: digitrax@yahoogroups.com; qsindustries@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Val Pistilli
Subject: [QSIndustries] Broadway LTD. advanced sound


So Broadway, where is my PRR H9? I would settle for an I1. How about
an L1?