beating up a the dead(?) horse: CV21/CV22 (and EasyDCC)


ARRJERRY@...
 

In a message dated 2/26/2004 7:18:02 PM Central Standard Time, jens.wulf@... writes:

sorry, to get back to this (all quiet here on this), so I make
it short: I tried advanced consisting with my EasyDCC via
- method a) the station organizing the adv. consist and
- method b) the direct CV19 programming on the main
with following decoders:
- a pair of NCE DA-SR (version 3 EFX series decoder)
- a pair of DigiTrax DH163IP (FX3 series decoder)
- and a single TCS TH150DP decoder
(all these have CV21 and CV22)
and the result is: identical behavior and the same as with
the QSI/BLI GG1 decoders:
method a) only the lead loco reacts to function changes, ignoring
     all CV21/CV22 settings
method b) all loco's in the (advanced) consist react to function
     changes according to CV21/CV22 settings

and Manfred in the Atlas forum pointed out that such problems
have NOT been reported by DigiTrax station (with current software)
users, UNLESS they had an old Chief which can only control F0f/r,
F1-F4 and "a little bit" F5-F8 as these are being sent as F9-F12
(okay, I do not have a DigiTrax system, so may have described this
wrong. But were are the DigiTrax users complaining? They don't, or?)

cheers/jw
PS: I have not tested the CV19 "coma" issue. I have just powered
down all above mentioned decoders/locos and going to wake them
up (if they do) in about 24 hours.


Lets not confuse the QSI problem with other Advanced Consisting. Advanced consisting is commonly used thru out the hobby. I myself have 32 advanced consists, my club has many more and I operated at a friends house last week using Northcoast and advanced consisting. Using the same procedure with QSI decoders does not allow the trailing loco to stay in the consist. I have not tried more than 2 QSI's to see if 2 would work when there was a 3rd. Neither have I tried to advance consist to a non QSI loco. I think it is about time for QSI (BLI) to take 2 of their locomotives with their manual and try it. We need to know if we are doing something wrong, Our systems won't handle QSI, or their is a problem with the decoders. Advanced consisting is basic to DCC and we need to solve this problem.
Jerry S.


Jens Wulf <jens.wulf@...>
 

sorry, to get back to this (all quiet here on this), so I make
it short: I tried advanced consisting with my EasyDCC via
- method a) the station organizing the adv. consist and
- method b) the direct CV19 programming on the main
with following decoders:
- a pair of NCE DA-SR (version 3 EFX series decoder)
- a pair of DigiTrax DH163IP (FX3 series decoder)
- and a single TCS TH150DP decoder
(all these have CV21 and CV22)
and the result is: identical behavior and the same as with
the QSI/BLI GG1 decoders:
method a) only the lead loco reacts to function changes, ignoring
all CV21/CV22 settings
method b) all loco's in the (advanced) consist react to function
changes according to CV21/CV22 settings

and Manfred in the Atlas forum pointed out that such problems
have NOT been reported by DigiTrax station (with current software)
users, UNLESS they had an old Chief which can only control F0f/r,
F1-F4 and "a little bit" F5-F8 as these are being sent as F9-F12
(okay, I do not have a DigiTrax system, so may have described this
wrong. But were are the DigiTrax users complaining? They don't, or?)

cheers/jw
PS: I have not tested the CV19 "coma" issue. I have just powered
down all above mentioned decoders/locos and going to wake them
up (if they do) in about 24 hours.


Jeff Warner <jeff@...>
 

Jens Wulf wrote:

[snip]

But were are the DigiTrax users complaining? They don't, or?)
This is a bit of a guess, but Digitrax makes it more difficult to use advanced consisting that "universal" (their term for stored in the command station) consisting. I never even tried to advance consist the locos until the problems were posted to the list. Then I broke out the Digitrax Chief manual and it said (paraphrased) -- go read on-line because we're not telling you here. I did read on-line and now know how to do it (all addresses must be status edited to support advanced consisting -- which is different depending on which throttle you use. Then the consist must be set up on a 2 digit address -- I currently use 4 digit consist addresses -- address of first loco). I really meant to go try this and see what happens...I just didn't get around to it (since the other way works so well).

Anyway, I suspect that's why Digitrax owners aren't complaining. I do know 2 Digitrax Chief owners who sent older Chief's back to GA for an upgrade to fix the F5-F8 mapped to F9-F12 problem...

Jeff Warner


Jens Wulf <jens.wulf@...>
 

if my memory serves me, the DigiTrax FX3 decoders which do have
speed stabilization have two parameter sets for this: one for
consists (to avoid the hunting effect) and one for running alone.
And the only way the decoder knows it is consisted is when it is
advanced-consisted (because of CV19 not 0).
Now that's a policy(?) which makes my mind spin ....
cheers/jw

--- Jeff Warner <jeff@pennsyrr.com> wrote:
Jens Wulf wrote:

[snip]

But were are the DigiTrax users complaining? They don't, or?)
This is a bit of a guess, but Digitrax makes it more difficult to use

advanced consisting that "universal" (their term for stored in the
command station) consisting. I never even tried to advance consist
the
locos until the problems were posted to the list. Then I broke out
the
Digitrax Chief manual and it said (paraphrased) -- go read on-line
because we're not telling you here.
[snip]


Gerry Hopkins <gerrymmr@...>
 

Jens Wulf wrote:

sorry, to get back to this (all quiet here on this), so I make
it short: I tried advanced consisting with my EasyDCC via
- method a) the station organizing the adv. consist and
- method b) the direct CV19 programming on the main
with following decoders:
- a pair of NCE DA-SR (version 3 EFX series decoder)
- a pair of DigiTrax DH163IP (FX3 series decoder)
- and a single TCS TH150DP decoder
(all these have CV21 and CV22)
and the result is: identical behavior and the same as with
the QSI/BLI GG1 decoders:
method a) only the lead loco reacts to function changes, ignoring
all CV21/CV22 settings
method b) all loco's in the (advanced) consist react to function
changes according to CV21/CV22 settings

Just a quick question. In method a) How are you setting up the consist?
A1 - Press [Setup] [Consist]
or
A2 - Press [Setup] [Y]

and when you call up the consist do you use the consist number or lead loco number?

Gerry

===================================
Gerry Hopkins MMR
http://www.users.bigpond.com/gerrymmr


Payne,Brett <brett.payne@...>
 

Jens,
Your EasyDCC system is in fact working how it is supposed to (and how the NMRA standard is defined).

There are really three types of consisting.

The most basic one is to assign the decoders in all locomotives you want to consist to the same address. If they all have sound they will all do the same thing at the same time (lights, horn, dynamics, you name it...).

The next two types of consisting are called standard and advanced.

Standard consisting on EasyDCC places the consist configuration into a table in the command station. It uses the four digit lead locomotive address as the consist address by default and it "remembers" who the other locos in the consist are. The command station on receiving speed instructions for the lead locomotive also translates the speed instruction to the addresses of the other locomotives in the consist. According to the manual only the speed function is shared. The other functions (lights, sound, etc) only go to the lead locomotive. This form on consisting does not alter the decoder programming in any way.

Advanced consisting on EasyDCC writes the consist information to BOTH a table in the command station AND to the decoders. The advanced consist numbering is two digit and is therefore independent of the locomotive number. The decoders are reprogrammed to be at the same "secondary" or consist address. Using CV21/22 etc you can configure how each locomotive performs when a given function is sent to the consist. For example you can get the lights to behave properly and with sound you can have the dynamic breaks start of all locos at the same time, or you can prevent a certain sound or light effect from happening.

With an advanced consist set up at the decoder you can take your train set to another layout and theoretically you will be able to use it as a consist in exactly the same way.

However as I said on EasyDCC the advanced consist is written to BOTH a command station table and to the respective decoders. If the EasyDCC system loses the data from it's command station table it will not work! You will need to "restore" the consist. To do this you simply recreate the consist on the command station. I presume this will also be the case if you take you advance consist to someone else's EasyDCC system.

Note that if your memory back up battery is flat - you may lose consist data when you witch your system off.

I hope this clarifies it for everyone.

Brett Payne





Message: 22
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:16:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Jens Wulf <jens.wulf@worldrailfans.org>
Subject: beating up a the dead(?) horse: CV21/CV22 (and EasyDCC)

sorry, to get back to this (all quiet here on this), so I make it short: I tried advanced consisting with my EasyDCC via
- method a) the station organizing the adv. consist and
- method b) the direct CV19 programming on the main
with following decoders:
- a pair of NCE DA-SR (version 3 EFX series decoder)
- a pair of DigiTrax DH163IP (FX3 series decoder)
- and a single TCS TH150DP decoder
(all these have CV21 and CV22)
and the result is: identical behavior and the same as with the QSI/BLI GG1 decoders:
method a) only the lead loco reacts to function changes, ignoring
all CV21/CV22 settings
method b) all loco's in the (advanced) consist react to function
changes according to CV21/CV22 settings


ARRJERRY@...
 

In a message dated 2/26/2004 11:13:14 PM Central Standard Time, gerrymmr@... writes:

A1 - Press [Setup] [Consist]
or
A2 - Press [Setup] [Y]

and when you call up the consist do you use the consist number or lead
loco number?

Gerry,
When using Easy DCC, you use Y, provide the 2 digit consist # of your choice, than the loco's numbers (4 digit if you have them in the system that way), and finally, don't forget to reverse the direction if any of the loco's are running backwards.
        Jerry S.


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerry Hopkins [mailto:gerrymmr@bigpond.com]
Sent: Friday, 27. February 2004 06:10
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] beating up a the dead(?) horse: CV21/CV22
A1 - Press [Setup] [Consist]
or
A2 - Press [Setup] [Y]
this one. SETUP Y. With EasyDCC version 416 I should say. This changed
over time, but matches the manual for 418


and when you call up the consist do you use the consist number or lead
loco number?
consist number. If I call the loco number if setup that way I only have
access to that loco's function, if at all, and not the consist

/jw


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: ARRJERRY@AOL.COM [mailto:ARRJERRY@AOL.COM]
Sent: Friday, 27. February 2004 05:31
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] beating up a the dead(?) horse: CV21/CV22 (and EasyDCC)

remember I (jw) wrote, as P.S.:
PS: I have not tested the CV19 "coma" issue. I have just powered
down all above mentioned decoders/locos and going to wake them
up (if they do) in about 24 hours.
you wrote:
Lets not confuse the QSI problem with other Advanced Consisting.
[..]
Advanced consisting is basic to DCC and we need to solve this problem.

[jw] yes agree. we need to. See my PS above. This post was *NOT* about the CV19
problem with the QSI decoders. And there's an issue. Ther's *NO* problem with
Cv21/Cv22 on QSI decoders. We should stop mixing these two issue.

/jw


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Payne,Brett [mailto:brett.payne@gartner.com]
Sent: Friday, 27. February 2004 06:34
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [QSIndustries] beating up a the dead(?) horse: CV21/CV22
(and EasyDCC)


Jens,
Your EasyDCC system is in fact working how it is supposed to (and how the NMRA standard is defined).
I didn't say otherwise! I posted the different ways one can do function control with
advanced consists, with or without support of the CV21/CV22.
These work in the QSI decoders and the same way as they work with all the other decoders
which do support CV21/CV22. And that is what the subject is about: CV21/CV22. Not about
consisting in general.
Whichs just means they (CV21/CV22 of the QSI decoders) work.
But there're only one way to make them (CV21/CV22) active with an EasyDCC station, and that
is *NOT* to use the station setup (SETUP Y) but to use more less the "Atlas Commander way"
of directly programming CV19 und use that address as a loco. Only then CV21/CV22 of any
decoder including QSI's are become active.

/jw
PS: and I will be a post at least one message, about the Cv19 bug in the QSI decoders.
but again, their CV21/22 work. Their Cv19 handling has a bug. which wasn't this post about.


bb4024 <tjones@...>
 

--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Jens Wulf &#92;(WRF&#92;)"
<jens.wulf@w...> wrote:


directly programming CV19 und use that address as a loco. Only then
CV21/CV22 of any
decoder including QSI's are become active.

A question. Is your EasyDC able to startup a consist of locos using
the CV19 address or do you have to start them first then the CV19
will control all CV21/22 functions. My Northcoast will not turn the
consist on from CV19, but like I said before will work once the
engines are turned on.

tj


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: bb4024 [mailto:tjones@suscom-maine.net]
Sent: Friday, 27. February 2004 18:12
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QSIndustries] Re: beating up a the dead(?) horse: CV21/CV22
(and EasyDCC)


--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Jens Wulf &#92;(WRF&#92;)"
<jens.wulf@w...> wrote:


directly programming CV19 und use that address as a loco. Only then
CV21/CV22 of any
decoder including QSI's are become active.

A question. Is your EasyDC able to startup a consist of locos using
the CV19 address or do you have to start them first then the CV19
will control all CV21/22 functions. My Northcoast will not turn the
consist on from CV19, but like I said before will work once the
engines are turned on.
that was what I was going to test next (later tonight) in a "more
scientific way" so to speak ;o)
I just wanted to know my environment.
From the loose experiments I did before I *THINK NOW* I could *NOT* wake
them up using the Cv19 address. But back then I was also confused
were and when which functions were controlled, it didn't look right
for an advanced consist, well it looks like this is standard. Ok?!

Anyway, now I know how my station is operating with advanced consists.
That's the base for the more important Cv19 issue testing. IMHO. That's
next ...

a question to you: is your NCE system capable of operating F9 to F12?

a question to all: anybody able to trick the EasyDCC system to transmit
F9 to F12, maybe via (PC) software. DecoderPro?

/jw


bb4024 <tjones@...>
 

--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Jens Wulf &#92;(WRF&#92;)"
<jens.wulf@w...> wrote:


-----Original Message-----
From: bb4024 [mailto:tjones@s...]
Sent: Friday, 27. February 2004 18:12
To: QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [QSIndustries] Re: beating up a the dead(?) horse:
CV21/CV22
(and EasyDCC)

a question to you: is your NCE system capable of operating F9 to
F12?


No NCE currently does not support F9 thru F12, however there is a
much awaited eprom update due out soon which "should" (the operable
word) address the added functions.


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

a question to you: is your NCE system capable of operating F9 to F12?
a question to all: anybody able to trick the EasyDCC system to transmit
F9 to F12<

My understanding is that only Digitrax has F9 -- F12. I also have been
reminded by Stan Ames that these functions are now RPs. I believe that
capability of a system to use these functions is in the system software.
NCE systems have the buttons on their controls but they are non-functional
until a software update occurs.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Jens Wulf \(WRF\) <jens.wulf@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Miller [mailto:atsf@inow.com]
My understanding is that only Digitrax has F9 -- F12. I also have been
reminded by Stan Ames that these functions are now RPs. I believe that
capability of a system to use these functions is in the system software.
add the Zimo MX1 station. Unfortunately the system is out of my budget :(

/jw


denlippert <denlippert@...>
 

--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, ARRJERRY@A... wrote:
Using the same procedure with QSI decoders does not allow the
trailing loco to stay in the consist. I have not tried more
than 2 QSI's to see if 2 would work when there was a 3rd.
All trailing units should act the same if their CV21/22 are
set to the same values. The only reason the LEAD unit acts
differently than the trailers, is that the DCC command station
knows to send function commands to the "normal" address of the
leader.

Den


Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

Yes, Zimo is a really good and very expensive system.


Paul Bender <pabender@...>
 

--- In QSIndustries@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Miller" <atsf@i...> wrote:


My understanding is that only Digitrax has F9 -- F12. I also

have been reminded by Stan Ames that these functions are now RPs. I
believe that capability of a system to use these functions is in the
system software. NCE systems have the buttons on their controls but
they are non-functional until a software update occurs.



Lenz systems with an LZV100 or LZ100 also are capable of using F9-F12.


You have to use an LH100 or a computer to access these functions.




Paul