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Problem with "antique" Class A
mike_crafton@...
I have an "original" Paragon BLI N&W Class A loco. I bought this jewel back when they first came out. A Q1 "upgrade chip" was installed not long after I bought it to improve it's slow speed control (BEMF?) After many years of flawless running, the BEMF has seemingly gone "haywire". I have re-tuned the "parameter" settings (whew!) and have made some distinct improvements, but still not "right". At certain speed steps, the speed will not remain constant. When set at "Standard" speed control, the speed stays constant, but very slow speed is all but impossible. Always has been. Is it likely my "chip" has taken a dump? For $30-$40 bucks, I would like to try another one, but where do I get it? I checked the "Dealers List" on the QSI Solutions site, but all the phone numbers I called (5) were invalid. Tony's did say they don't carry them anymore. They want to sell you a new decoder. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance, Mike
Thanks in advance, Mike
litespan46
Try litchfield stations website that the place I got one about a year ago
Gene Gleason
On Sep 17, 2015, at 1:39 AM, mike_crafton@... [QSIndustries] <QSIndustries@...> wrote:
I have an "original" Paragon BLI N&W Class A loco. I bought this jewel back when they first came out. A Q1 "upgrade chip" was installed not long after I bought it to improve it's slow speed control (BEMF?) After many years of flawless running, the BEMF has seemingly gone "haywire". I have re-tuned the "parameter" settings (whew!) and have made some distinct improvements, but still not "right". At certain speed steps, the speed will not remain constant. When set at "Standard" speed control, the speed stays constant, but very slow speed is all but impossible. Always has been. Is it likely my "chip" has taken a dump? For $30-$40 bucks, I would like to try another one, but where do I get it? I checked the "Dealers List" on the QSI Solutions site, but all the phone numbers I called (5) were invalid. Tony's did say they don't carry them anymore. They want to sell you a new decoder. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance, Mike
Roger Thomas <rogert@...>
Considering all the advances in decoder design and sound capability, I suggest replacing the QSI with a new unit from Soundtraxx, TCS or Loksound.
Roger Thomas
On Thursday 09/17/2015 at 7:23 am, mike_crafton@... QSIndustries wrote:
I have an "original" Paragon BLI N&W Class A loco. I bought this jewel back when they first came out. A Q1 "upgrade chip" was installed not long after I bought it to improve it's slow speed control (BEMF?) After many years of flawless running, the BEMF has seemingly gone "haywire". I have re-tuned the "parameter" settings (whew!) and have made some distinct improvements, but still not "right". At certain speed steps, the speed will not remain constant. When set at "Standard" speed control, the speed stays constant, but very slow speed is all but impossible. Always has been. Is it likely my "chip" has taken a dump? For $30-$40 bucks, I would like to try another one, but where do I get it? I checked the "Dealers List" on the QSI Solutions site, but all the phone numbers I called (5) were invalid. Tony's did say they don't carry them anymore. They want to sell you a new decoder. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance, Mike
Ed.Sauers <dockside98@...>
Roger,
What's new with the Tsunami except for the way they package it? Are there any New Features???
Ed Sauers
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
What's new with the Tsunami except for the way they package it? Are there any New Features???
Ed Sauers
On 9/17/2015 9:33 AM, Roger Thomas
rogert@... [QSIndustries] wrote:
Considering all the advances in decoder design and sound capability, I suggest replacing the QSI with a new unit from Soundtraxx, TCS or Loksound.
Roger Thomas
On Thursday 09/17/2015 at 7:23 am, mike_crafton@... QSIndustries wrote:I have an "original" Paragon BLI N&W Class A loco. I bought this jewel back when they first came out. A Q1 "upgrade chip" was installed not long after I bought it to improve it's slow speed control (BEMF?) After many years of flawless running, the BEMF has seemingly gone "haywire". I have re-tuned the "parameter" settings (whew!) and have made some distinct improvements, but still not "right". At certain speed steps, the speed will not remain constant. When set at "Standard" speed control, the speed stays constant, but very slow speed is all but impossible. Always has been. Is it likely my "chip" has taken a dump? For $30-$40 bucks, I would like to try another one, but where do I get it? I checked the "Dealers List" on the QSI Solutions site, but all the phone numbers I called (5) were invalid. Tony's did say they don't carry them anymore. They want to sell you a new decoder. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance, Mike
jimalbanowski
Mike:
A decoder swap might prove to be only choice... but... My two choices would be Lok and TCS WOW!.
If you can find someone with a QSIS programmer in your area to reload the firmware and software. (If in the Princeton NJ area I could help)
The chip that was replaced brought the OEM decoder to version 7. This is how you identify the sound files for download.
This chip went obsolete and forced the change to next generation of QSI decoders.
Jim Albanowski
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
A decoder swap might prove to be only choice... but... My two choices would be Lok and TCS WOW!.
If you can find someone with a QSIS programmer in your area to reload the firmware and software. (If in the Princeton NJ area I could help)
The chip that was replaced brought the OEM decoder to version 7. This is how you identify the sound files for download.
This chip went obsolete and forced the change to next generation of QSI decoders.
Jim Albanowski
.
John Burkhardt
Mike,
I still have two upgrade chips in stock, if you don’t come right please contact me off list.
Thanks and regards,
John Burkhardt
Burkhardt's Bahnhof
P O Box 8712
Edenglen
1613
South Africa
Tel +27 11 974 93 67
Cell +27 82 881 32 69
Fax +27 86 684 24 82
From: QSIndustries@... [mailto:QSIndustries@...]
Sent: 17 September 2015 07:40
To: QSIndustries@...
Subject: [QSIndustries] Problem with "antique" Class A
I have an "original" Paragon BLI N&W Class A loco. I bought this jewel back when they first came out. A Q1 "upgrade chip" was installed not long after I bought it to improve it's slow speed control (BEMF?) After many years of flawless running, the BEMF has seemingly gone "haywire". I have re-tuned the "parameter" settings (whew!) and have made some distinct improvements, but still not "right". At certain speed steps, the speed will not remain constant. When set at "Standard" speed control, the speed stays constant, but very slow speed is all but impossible. Always has been. Is it likely my "chip" has taken a dump? For $30-$40 bucks, I would like to try another one, but where do I get it? I checked the "Dealers List" on the QSI Solutions site, but all the phone numbers I called (5) were invalid. Tony's did say they don't carry them anymore. They want to sell you a new decoder. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance, Mike
I still have two upgrade chips in stock, if you don’t come right please contact me off list.
Thanks and regards,
John Burkhardt
Burkhardt's Bahnhof
P O Box 8712
Edenglen
1613
South Africa
Tel +27 11 974 93 67
Cell +27 82 881 32 69
Fax +27 86 684 24 82
From: QSIndustries@... [mailto:QSIndustries@...]
Sent: 17 September 2015 07:40
To: QSIndustries@...
Subject: [QSIndustries] Problem with "antique" Class A
I have an "original" Paragon BLI N&W Class A loco. I bought this jewel back when they first came out. A Q1 "upgrade chip" was installed not long after I bought it to improve it's slow speed control (BEMF?) After many years of flawless running, the BEMF has seemingly gone "haywire". I have re-tuned the "parameter" settings (whew!) and have made some distinct improvements, but still not "right". At certain speed steps, the speed will not remain constant. When set at "Standard" speed control, the speed stays constant, but very slow speed is all but impossible. Always has been. Is it likely my "chip" has taken a dump? For $30-$40 bucks, I would like to try another one, but where do I get it? I checked the "Dealers List" on the QSI Solutions site, but all the phone numbers I called (5) were invalid. Tony's did say they don't carry them anymore. They want to sell you a new decoder. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance, Mike
Mark Gurries
Ddi you reset the decoder before you attempted to retune it? The fact that you have to turn it differently says there are variable you have not accounted for.
Chances are some parameters inside the decoder became corrupted and the best solution is to reset and then tune. Typically this happens on a large layout after a derailment.
If you have Decoder Pro, it would allow you to reset and/or fully restore all the known values. Sometime reset will clear variables that are not accessible to the user.
On Sep 16, 2015, at 10:39 PM, mike_crafton@... [QSIndustries] <QSIndustries@...> wrote:
I have an "original" Paragon BLI N&W Class A loco. I bought this jewel back when they first came out. A Q1 "upgrade chip" was installed not long after I bought it to improve it's slow speed control (BEMF?) After many years of flawless running, the BEMF has seemingly gone "haywire". I have re-tuned the "parameter" settings (whew!) and have made some distinct improvements, but still not "right". At certain speed steps, the speed will not remain constant. When set at "Standard" speed control, the speed stays constant, but very slow speed is all but impossible. Always has been. Is it likely my "chip" has taken a dump? For $30-$40 bucks, I would like to try another one, but where do I get it? I checked the "Dealers List" on the QSI Solutions site, but all the phone numbers I called (5) were invalid. Tony's did say they don't carry them anymore. They want to sell you a new decoder. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance, Mike
mike_crafton@...
Throughout this "ordeal", I have actually re-set the decoder TWICE. In the beginning, while I was experimenting with the BEMF "parameter settings" (CV's56.18, 19, 20, and21) I screwed it up so bad I HAD to re-set! I gradually began to understand (somewhat) how everything worked, and I actually got it working pretty good. What makes me suspicious of the whole thing is my final settings are so RADICALLY DIFFERENT from default, and it doesn't seem to stay the same consistently. Works almost perfectly one minute, and then gets erratic the next. At Gene Gleason's suggestion (THANKS!), I contacted Litchfield Station, and they are sending me a new chip! $29.00 is much cheaper than a new decoder! I have about 8 BLI locos with these "old style" decoders in them, and I've always been happy with them. They work well, and "keep it simple". I have two new "Paragon 3" locos that have "5 million" CV's, and basically still do the same thing. Just more to go wrong.....and one already has......TWICE! Thank all of you for your input, and I will keep you posted on the outcome!
litespan46
Glad u could get the chip. I have about 15 of the original bli engines . Replaced all mine with the v7 chip.
Gene Gleason
On Sep 17, 2015, at 7:16 PM, mike_crafton@... [QSIndustries] <QSIndustries@...> wrote:
Throughout this "ordeal", I have actually re-set the decoder TWICE. In the beginning, while I was experimenting with the BEMF "parameter settings" (CV's56.18, 19, 20, and21) I screwed it up so bad I HAD to re-set! I gradually began to understand (somewhat) how everything worked, and I actually got it working pretty good. What makes me suspicious of the whole thing is my final settings are so RADICALLY DIFFERENT from default, and it doesn't seem to stay the same consistently. Works almost perfectly one minute, and then gets erratic the next. At Gene Gleason's suggestion (THANKS!), I contacted Litchfield Station, and they are sending me a new chip! $29.00 is much cheaper than a new decoder! I have about 8 BLI locos with these "old style" decoders in them, and I've always been happy with them. They work well, and "keep it simple". I have two new "Paragon 3" locos that have "5 million" CV's, and basically still do the same thing. Just more to go wrong.....and one already has......TWICE! Thank all of you for your input, and I will keep you posted on the outcome!
jimalbanowski
Mike:
Not to say that it can't happen but I've never have had a V7 QSI decoder fail with weird BEMF settings needed... failed it just doesn't run...
Since BEMF is looking at the motor and the mech have you checked the current draw of the engine? I wonder if a hitch has developed that requires the BEMF changes to compensate and run somewhat smoothly again.
As a was mentioned a short can scramble the decoder. V7 is much more resistant that earlier versions but it happens... It's why DecoderPro and a dedicated programming station is nice to have especially at the club.
Jim Albanowski
<snip>
Not to say that it can't happen but I've never have had a V7 QSI decoder fail with weird BEMF settings needed... failed it just doesn't run...
Since BEMF is looking at the motor and the mech have you checked the current draw of the engine? I wonder if a hitch has developed that requires the BEMF changes to compensate and run somewhat smoothly again.
As a was mentioned a short can scramble the decoder. V7 is much more resistant that earlier versions but it happens... It's why DecoderPro and a dedicated programming station is nice to have especially at the club.
Jim Albanowski
<snip>
Terry Humerickhouse
Only problem I've had in the past with V7 QSI decoders is that they often loose their brains while running
after a few moments they recover and start running again with all settings intact
I've wondered if its heat related
Terry
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Show quoted text
after a few moments they recover and start running again with all settings intact
I've wondered if its heat related
Terry
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Albanowski jimalbanowski@... [QSIndustries]
To: QSIndustries
Sent: Fri, Sep 18, 2015 6:31 am
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Problem with "antique" Class A
From: Jim Albanowski jimalbanowski@... [QSIndustries]
To: QSIndustries
Sent: Fri, Sep 18, 2015 6:31 am
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] Problem with "antique" Class A
Mike:
Not to say that it can't happen but I've never have had a V7 QSI decoder
fail with weird BEMF settings needed... failed it just doesn't run...
Since BEMF is looking at the motor and the mech have you checked the
current draw of the engine? I wonder if a hitch has developed that
requires the BEMF changes to compensate and run somewhat smoothly again.
As a was mentioned a short can scramble the decoder. V7 is much more
resistant that earlier versions but it happens... It's why DecoderPro
and a dedicated programming station is nice to have especially at the club.
Jim Albanowski
Not to say that it can't happen but I've never have had a V7 QSI decoder
fail with weird BEMF settings needed... failed it just doesn't run...
Since BEMF is looking at the motor and the mech have you checked the
current draw of the engine? I wonder if a hitch has developed that
requires the BEMF changes to compensate and run somewhat smoothly again.
As a was mentioned a short can scramble the decoder. V7 is much more
resistant that earlier versions but it happens... It's why DecoderPro
and a dedicated programming station is nice to have especially at the club.
Jim Albanowski
mike_crafton@...
If the motor was "acting up", would it still run correctly with the BEMF turned off? I talked to Jack Baer, the Guru at Litchfield Station, and his first guess was the chip. But of course, not necessarily. I informed him that I found two of the copper "wipers" that pick up track power from the drivers had seemingly "worn-off", but the tender pick-up seemed to be compensating for it. I need to fix this, but on this model, you can't remove the drivers, so I have to go in from the top and drop-out the engine groups. The wheels on this thing are made of some "odd" material. Not "shiny" like most. Looks like cast aluminum or something. I think it's "abrasiveness" may be what wore the wipers down. I think I'll eventually fabricate some steel wipers and put them in. I have found over the years that the steel bristles from a wire "welder's brush" are fantastic power wipers. They are very "springy", and tough at the same time. If you need a special "spring" for something, they're the ticket. I've even made certain types of coupler centering-springs when nothing else was availlable. Ideal for making power pickups on passenger cars too! I got off track.....Jack Baer seemed to think the loss of pick-up should not be the problem, since the tender pickup was working well enough so no power interruption is occurring. I wonder if "keep-alive" capacitors might help with this?
trenule
If I read correctly your earlier posts, the decoder, with the upgrade chip, has run fine for quite a while.
before the model started acting up.
There is a long list of factors that can cause inconsistent behavior, I would put the last the decoder, as it ran fine for so long.
Dirty wheels, dirty track, lack of lubrication. Mechanically worn rods and rod joins that slowly have started binding. Furthermore, mechanical/electrical - wires, contacts at connectors, power pick up, or the combination of all of the above, can be very valid causes.
A combination of some of the above factors can put more load on the motor, which consequently would run at higher current, which may bring the decoder, which has to provide that current, to the borderline current consumption and cause overheating.
There is one simple way to see if there are mechanical problems - rods binding. Disconnect the transmission shafts - that transmit motion from motor to the drivers.
There is one simple easy way to see if the decoder is the problem or not. Disconnect the motor from the decoder, and connect it directly to the power pickup, and run the loco in DC mode. This way the decoder will have no role in running the motor. If in DC mode, the loco runs fine, then, you can focus on the decoder.
tren ule
before the model started acting up.
There is a long list of factors that can cause inconsistent behavior, I would put the last the decoder, as it ran fine for so long.
Dirty wheels, dirty track, lack of lubrication. Mechanically worn rods and rod joins that slowly have started binding. Furthermore, mechanical/electrical - wires, contacts at connectors, power pick up, or the combination of all of the above, can be very valid causes.
A combination of some of the above factors can put more load on the motor, which consequently would run at higher current, which may bring the decoder, which has to provide that current, to the borderline current consumption and cause overheating.
There is one simple way to see if there are mechanical problems - rods binding. Disconnect the transmission shafts - that transmit motion from motor to the drivers.
There is one simple easy way to see if the decoder is the problem or not. Disconnect the motor from the decoder, and connect it directly to the power pickup, and run the loco in DC mode. This way the decoder will have no role in running the motor. If in DC mode, the loco runs fine, then, you can focus on the decoder.
tren ule
mike_crafton@...
I have a DC power pack on my layout. It is a MRC (don't know which right now), but it has like a "regulated" power control and yes, the A runs smoothly on DC. I did flip the loco upside down to clean the wheels, and ran it at varying speeds, and the mechanism seems smooth. I want to remove the engine groups from the loco to add new wipers, so I'll further check the mechanism at that time.
jimalbanowski
Mike:
Good to see you were able to get the V7 chips...
The A is a simple articulated so the 4 cylinders all exhaust directly
for 8 beats per driver revolution. For the best effect the two engines
are a bit of sync for a very rough cadence. The J being 2 cylinder power
has the normal 4 beats.
Jim Albanowski
<snip>
Good to see you were able to get the V7 chips...
The A is a simple articulated so the 4 cylinders all exhaust directly
for 8 beats per driver revolution. For the best effect the two engines
are a bit of sync for a very rough cadence. The J being 2 cylinder power
has the normal 4 beats.
Jim Albanowski
<snip>
mike_crafton@...
What QSI was implying is the chuff is a CHANGE from the original sounds. I know simple-articulated is surely going to sound different from a 4-8-4, UNLESS all six drivers are in perfect sync! Oddly, this happens more than you might think. I've heard the 1218 start from a dead stop, and not sound articulated at all. Sometimes it seemed the engines WANTED to get "in-sync"! The UP 3985 seemed to do the same thing (videos only in this case) You ever notice this?
trenule
The clear hearing of the 8 chuffs of the 4 cylinders of a 2 engine steam loco depends on speed, and rotational angle between the two engines - front and rear - of the articulated steam loco. The slower the speed, the clearer the chuff sound separation.
With the "quarter" (of a full circle) - 90 degree - angle between the drivers on the two sides of an engine, chuffs are produced at each 90 degree wheel rotation (4 times for a 360 degree full revolution).
Therefore the "out of sync" of the front and rear engine chuff sounds is within an angular domain from 0 to 90 degrees.
At 0, or 90 degrees angle between front and rear, the 8 chuffs are in sync, resulting in the perception of 4 chuffs per wheel revolution.
The clearest separation of the 8 chuff sounds, is in the middle of that angular domain, when the front and rear drivers are at a 45 degree phase (angle),
Such a case is quite rare, even though this could be a target for the assembly crew, as theoretically the best front/rear balance is achieved in the vicinity of such an angle.
The separation is becoming less and less clear as the "out of sync" gets closer to margins of the domain - 0 or 90 degrees.
A video of the N&W 1218 Class A shows the rods close to being perfectly aligned relative to the ground - which means very close to the margins of the "out of sync" angular domain, which explains why the chuff sounds seem to be that of 4 chuffs.
tren ule
With the "quarter" (of a full circle) - 90 degree - angle between the drivers on the two sides of an engine, chuffs are produced at each 90 degree wheel rotation (4 times for a 360 degree full revolution).
Therefore the "out of sync" of the front and rear engine chuff sounds is within an angular domain from 0 to 90 degrees.
At 0, or 90 degrees angle between front and rear, the 8 chuffs are in sync, resulting in the perception of 4 chuffs per wheel revolution.
The clearest separation of the 8 chuff sounds, is in the middle of that angular domain, when the front and rear drivers are at a 45 degree phase (angle),
Such a case is quite rare, even though this could be a target for the assembly crew, as theoretically the best front/rear balance is achieved in the vicinity of such an angle.
The separation is becoming less and less clear as the "out of sync" gets closer to margins of the domain - 0 or 90 degrees.
A video of the N&W 1218 Class A shows the rods close to being perfectly aligned relative to the ground - which means very close to the margins of the "out of sync" angular domain, which explains why the chuff sounds seem to be that of 4 chuffs.
tren ule
jimalbanowski
Mike:
From memory of articulated engine installs I've done with Titan/Evo is
that is a feature of these sound files...they can drift in and out the
sync of both engines. It's the same as a double header with the same
class of engines... Though there you have the prospect that one had new
tires and the other worn and turned to a slightly different diameter...
never to sync... And of course we can do that with a CV change...
Being around a the very birth of "electronics" for train control... the
humble transistor(ized) throttle we would have gotten the the point of
asking how can best get the locomotive to produce prototype sounds...
from the locomotive...
This has to be corollary to Moore's Law... The neat and nearly
impossible stuff doubles every two years...
Jim Albanowski
<snip>
From memory of articulated engine installs I've done with Titan/Evo is
that is a feature of these sound files...they can drift in and out the
sync of both engines. It's the same as a double header with the same
class of engines... Though there you have the prospect that one had new
tires and the other worn and turned to a slightly different diameter...
never to sync... And of course we can do that with a CV change...
Being around a the very birth of "electronics" for train control... the
humble transistor(ized) throttle we would have gotten the the point of
asking how can best get the locomotive to produce prototype sounds...
from the locomotive...
This has to be corollary to Moore's Law... The neat and nearly
impossible stuff doubles every two years...
Jim Albanowski
<snip>