Date   

Re: Q

Marcus Ammann
 

Hi Morgan

 

Sorry about that, I just copied your loco details and did a search.

Now we’ve got the loco right with a JMRI Decoder Definition, we’re all set to go with JMRI programming the features that are allowed.

 

Your two Decapods will always sound different, you cannot do anything about that, unless you fit them with the same decoder with the same sound project.

 

If you don’t use POM then don’t worry about CV 62.

Later you say you use POM with the Digitrax, then if you change the Bell Volume it’s a TWO CV procedure – CV 52.8.

When you do program the Bell Volume, with Verbal Acknowledgment on, the loco will start announcing CV 52 and it may miss the rest of the 2 CV programming instruction.

 

Using two different Command Station – Sprog and Digitrax, certainly creates issues with what’s in the decoder that from the sound of it, you’re on top of it.

 

I have a Laptop connected to my NCE Power Pro system where I can select the Program Track or the Main, program with JMRI with Service mode for the Program Track and Operations mode for out on the layout. Decoder Pro remembers the values, so need to “copy them over”.

 

You said “. So I will have to work within the restrictions. Is this now clear?

 

Yes you have to work with restrictions and are you asking me “is it now clear”.

 

I’m just trying to help you.

 

Regards

Marcus

 

 

From: QSIndustries@groups.io <QSIndustries@groups.io> On Behalf Of PennsyNut
Sent: Saturday, 7 August 2021 11:42 AM
To: QSIndustries@groups.io
Subject: [QSIndustries] Q

 

Marcus: Sorry, but you got off the track. It is a QSI. It was purchased back in 2010 when BLI was connected? with Precision Craft ? and did indeed use a QSI decoder. Somewhere along that era, BLI bought the rights to use QSI and found a way to create their own decoder, Paragon. So all the Paragons have ancestry in QSI. Hence, some similarities. The decoder is listed specifically in JMRI and I know it's the right one. So all the CV's in JMRI match. I say match, because back when I had the paper manual, they did indeed match. I lost that paper manual and have been struggling with the many issues of manual that the Internet/online seem to have. I am now confident that the latest one, dated 2015, is sufficient for me. So, as I have explained. I am not trying to conquer ALL the CV's. Just a few at a time to get this loco doing some "nice" things that the other BLI's don't or can't. One things for sure, the bells and whistles are different in this QSI and the Paragon2 version of the same loco. (I have two decapods, look the same, but sound very differently because of the different decoders. As for programming, I do not POM. I strictly use the SPROG and the programming track. That don't even need the Digitrax. The SPROG has it's own command station - which I don't need or use. Just the programming with JMRI. And yes, JMRI takes the guesswork out of  CV's. But I am learning a bit about these CV's - enough to make some sense out of them. Hence my discussion of CV64/62. If I don't use POM, I don't need verbal response from the decoder. Right? But, when operating with the DIgitrax/no SPROG. I can use POM to alter the speed or such. Not always. Just as a "playing train". Or the bell volume for example. I then make a note of my change and when back on the pt with SPROG, make the change in JMRI. So that anything I did on POM will be logged into JMRI. Also, since I don't have a QSI programmer, I now know that I can not change "the sound project" with just JMRI. So I will have to work within the restrictions. Is this now clear? The beginning of this thread was to get some clarification and I hope I now have enough to proceed. Again, thanks to all.


Morgan F Bilbo, DCS50, UT4D, UR93, SPROGIIv4, JMRI 4.24, Pennsy modeler 1952


Q

 

Marcus: Sorry, but you got off the track. It is a QSI. It was purchased back in 2010 when BLI was connected? with Precision Craft ? and did indeed use a QSI decoder. Somewhere along that era, BLI bought the rights to use QSI and found a way to create their own decoder, Paragon. So all the Paragons have ancestry in QSI. Hence, some similarities. The decoder is listed specifically in JMRI and I know it's the right one. So all the CV's in JMRI match. I say match, because back when I had the paper manual, they did indeed match. I lost that paper manual and have been struggling with the many issues of manual that the Internet/online seem to have. I am now confident that the latest one, dated 2015, is sufficient for me. So, as I have explained. I am not trying to conquer ALL the CV's. Just a few at a time to get this loco doing some "nice" things that the other BLI's don't or can't. One things for sure, the bells and whistles are different in this QSI and the Paragon2 version of the same loco. (I have two decapods, look the same, but sound very differently because of the different decoders. As for programming, I do not POM. I strictly use the SPROG and the programming track. That don't even need the Digitrax. The SPROG has it's own command station - which I don't need or use. Just the programming with JMRI. And yes, JMRI takes the guesswork out of  CV's. But I am learning a bit about these CV's - enough to make some sense out of them. Hence my discussion of CV64/62. If I don't use POM, I don't need verbal response from the decoder. Right? But, when operating with the DIgitrax/no SPROG. I can use POM to alter the speed or such. Not always. Just as a "playing train". Or the bell volume for example. I then make a note of my change and when back on the pt with SPROG, make the change in JMRI. So that anything I did on POM will be logged into JMRI. Also, since I don't have a QSI programmer, I now know that I can not change "the sound project" with just JMRI. So I will have to work within the restrictions. Is this now clear? The beginning of this thread was to get some clarification and I hope I now have enough to proceed. Again, thanks to all.


Morgan F Bilbo, DCS50, UT4D, UR93, SPROGIIv4, JMRI 4.24, Pennsy modeler 1952


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

Marcus Ammann
 

Hi Morgan

 

See the note below about your loco, it’s BLI Paragon not a QSI equipped loco from what I read.

 

I have many locos factory fitted with QSI decoders ranging from Version 6, Ver 7 to Titan and a few locos using QSI after market decoders where I’ve fitted the Revolution decoder but I model Australian so I don’t have a Decapod like what you’re trying to “adjust”.

 

Factory fitted QSI is where the Manufacturer has sent a sound file to QSI and they have dissected the recording into “parts” and have loaded them into the appropriate Sound Slot e.g. Whistle, Horn, engine running sounds etc and we the end user are stuck with what QSI and the manufacturer supplied.

 

After market is where a user/dealer wants to use a QSI decoder but has to “load” a particular sound project from a QSI site, later QSI Solutions and now from an archived site etc and you’ll need a QSI Programmer to load the “project”.  

 

You don’t have to have a QSI Programmer to program/adjust either of the Factory Fitted or After Market decoders.

Adjusting all decoders including QSIs is by your handpiece, the Spog or using Decoder Pro that you already have, by using the Program Track or the On the Main – POM.

 

As you’ve already seen, using Decoder Pro saves you from figuring out the C.V. and the appropriate value you need to use to “adjust” whatever you’re trying to adjust e.g. Volume motor performance etc.  

 

Now for your query about  CVs 62 and 64, I’ve never used CV 64 but I know it’s in the decoder as it’s on the JMRI Decoder Definition for my Factory supplied decoder but CV62 is another story:

 

When using “On the Main – POM” mode of programming, that I use most of the time when tinkering with all decoders, for the QSI you need to DISABLE the Verbal Acknowledgement and program CV 62 to “0” when programming MULTIPLE CVs like when adjust Indexed CVs, Speed Tables etc.

 

If you are only programming on the Program Track, you DON’T need to disable CV 62.

 

If you want to change the Whistle in your Decapod, you’ll need a QSI Programmer and a  “suitable” sound file to load it into the decoder.

 

Using Decoder Pro, saves you having to regularly consult the 440 page Manual.

 

Not familiar with this loco, I searched for your model number that you quoted “BLI PRR I1sa #4538” and found this at BLI, see:

 

https://www.broadway-limited.com/paragon2prri1sa-2.aspx

 

I cannot find a JMRI Decoder Definition for this loco.

 

Maybe this is the problem, it’s not a QSI equipped loco, perhaps someone else can chime ii here.

 

I hope this helps

 

Regards

Marcus

 

 

  

 

 

From: QSIndustries@groups.io <QSIndustries@groups.io> On Behalf Of PennsyNut
Sent: Thursday, 5 August 2021 1:03 AM
To: QSIndustries@groups.io
Subject: Re: [QSIndustries] I need some clarification, now more!.

 

The response I was hoping for was via email. So we could communicate offline. But, that's OK. I appreciate your response - Yank: My signature block shows what I'm using. A Digitrax original Zephyr. I always update any other that is needed. Hence, JMRI 4.24. When I do programming, I use the SPROG ONLY. No connection to Digitrax. So, what I am saying is: When on the pt/w/SPROG. It currently shows CV62=1 and CV64=0. So I figure I need to change CV62 to 0 to turn off all verbal responses. But what I really want to know is: Why? Or if I  leave verbal on, what good is it, if I don't use POM. Since I do all programming on the SPROG with regular pt mode, and if I remember correctly, in Direct always. The verbal being on POM only? Why do I need it? Or, I can ask in another way. If I use the Zephyr and want to change a CV on POM, would the verbal be of any real use? I ask this because I know that on POM, the Zephyr can not read back. So, what I assume (That's dangerous, I know.) is that using POM, the verbal will tell me what I changed. But since that's what I did, the verbal only verifies. So that is redundant. ?? Am I right? And this is only the first question I have about QSI and CV's. The next is about what I said above. If I do use verbal, is there a speedometer that QSI has that will tell me what speed I'm running? If so, how is it used? As you know, the manuals don't really give detail - only the how to connect, not how to use. And then, it's usually buried so deep in the manual, I take forever to find it and then try to understand it all. Is this clear?
--
Morgan F Bilbo, DCS50, UT4D, UR93, SPROGIIv4, JMRI 4.24, Pennsy modeler 1952


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

peteski7
 

Morgan,
We agree!  OSI is one of the more complex (and also feature-rich, and very configurable) decoders out there. Similar to ESU or ZIMO.  There are less-complex (and simpler to program and understand their programming) sound decoders out there, but they do not have all the bells and whistles of QSI.  I mentioned those decoders in my last message.

You could go with a simpler decoder but for financial reason you are sticking with QSI. I'm glad that you are sticking with it (even if it means slowly learning how to program it.  Programming QSI decoder should be less frustrating when using JMRI DecoderPro (or even QSI's QuantumProgrammer and CV Manager).

And you are right -- this venue is the right place to ask questions when you get stuck on some problem, but it also helps (person asking, and everybody else here) if they have at least some basic understanding of the decoder's programming.  And don't be intimidated by all the programmable features of QSI. I don't use a large subset of those feature (and I suspect many members here do not use every feature of their QSI decoders either).

Peteski


Re: Question for QSI re: new automatic logon procedure for decoders

peteski7
 

If that is the case, IMO it is a strange name of the feature.
That would mean a bi-directional communication between the decoder and command station.  That would be similar to RailComPlus, a protocol already used by some European manufacturers.  But American manufacturers seem way behind the curve on this technology.  I also doubt that QSI will ever participate. After all, when was the last time there was a new QSI decoder produced?  I also doubt that any of the older decoders can be upgraded to communicate with he command station.

Peteski


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

 

Peteski: You may have miss read what I meant. LOL I do read manuals. It's just that the QSI is so much more complicated than "say" BLI. Those are the main decoders I have. A Bachmann with it's cheapy don't count. So I am willing to go further into the QSI manual. But it's going to have to be bits at a time. (pun may be intended) So for example, these first CV's, 62/64 are the first. And then I will work on others. But for an amateur like me to go "whole hog" into the CV's is a mistake. I'm sure that even the more advanced model railroaders may hesitate at ESU if they are used to Tsunami or Digitrax sound. As for my use of the word "quirky". Look at the number of modelers that are abandoning QSI. Way too many. I won't abandon mine because it has cost me over $500 for my loco and I am not willing to spend any more. New decoders that could replace the QSI cost close to or over $100. In other words. I am not going to do it. Period. I will struggle with QSI. And as for asking for help on here. Isn't that what we are all on here for? To help others. I certainly appreciate you and the others that have been on here.
Morgan F Bilbo, DCS50, UT4D, UR93, SPROGIIv4, JMRI 4.24, Pennsy modeler 1952


Re: Question for QSI re: new automatic logon procedure for decoders

kjlovesya
 

Hi Pete,

  Clarification is needed.  I think it means that the decoder is automatically identified, including make, model and version numbers.   I'm just guessing.  However, since there is some kind of standardization mentioned, does that mean the manufacturers are involved?


KJ


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

peteski7
 

Well Morgan, the trade-off between simplicity and functionality in sound decoders is that the better sound decoders are complex in order to maximize the sound fidelity.  Think of the QSI, ESU, and ZIMO sound decoders being like some esoteric HiFi home sound systems which have zillions of knobs, dials and sliders for the audiophile owner to mess around with.  There aren't many of those audiophiles around. Most average humans are happy with a simple Stereo HiFi system in their house, with just volume, balance and tone controls.

I suppose you can struggle through using a QSI (or ESU or ZIMO) decoders by asking others to help you, but if you aren't willing (or not able) to at least somewhat immerse yourself in the manuals to better understand how those complex decoders operate, maybe a better choice for you would be to use some more basic sound decoders.  Digitrax, and MRC offer such simpler decoders.  Then there are middle-of-the-road decoders like Soundtraxx Tsunami and TCS, which offer better quality sound than basic decoders, but that again also means that they are more complicated to set up (more CVs to mess with).

I don't really think QSI decoders are any "quirkier" than ESU or ZIMO.  They simply are very feature-rich (read: complex) sound decoders, These three companies also provide dedicated software/hardware to make their decoder configuration more intuitive.  None of the simpler decoder manufacturers do that (because it is not really needed).

As far as SPROG goes, (or any DCC system that uses programming track) goes, the problem is that when the DCC specifications were developed, there were no sound decoders to even consider. Sound decoders draw a lot more current (due to them containing all the additional sound generating circuitry), and that affects the operation on the programming track.  It is unfortunate but we have to live with that (or just go with simpler decoders).

Peteski


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

 

Exactly, Peteski: I had downloaded that and was going to start to read it. At least for CV 62/64, etc. But as I may have said. Too much of this is way over my head. And yes, I know ESU are worse. But I don't have any ESU. And I only have this one QSI. So, I am just going to keep working on it. It is a most interesting "journey" as you can imagine. I don't know about you, or the others who read QSI forum, but: Don't it make you wonder "What the heck is so wrong with QSI being quirky or "difficult" when one looks at ESU and needs to wade through 5,000 CV's. And like QSI, need to buy proprietary additions to work the CV's properly. In both cases, trying to use a DCS50 alone/for example is a major headache. One needs JMRI and a SPROG or some sort of booster for the other PC interfaces. Even my SPROG needed a tweak to get it to read my QSI decoder.
Morgan F Bilbo, DCS50, UT4D, UR93, SPRO


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

peteski7
 

Morgan,
I just uploaded the manual I quoted to the Group's Files section, only to realize that it was already there under slightly different name.
You can download that manual following this link https://groups.io/g/QSIndustries/files/QuantumDCCRefManual_5_2_0.pdf

Generally, the newer versions of manuals still have info that applies to older decoders. In this case the CVs in question seem to have the same functionality.  But sound decoders in general are rather complex pieces of electronics, that require reading their manuals to get most of their potential. If you think QSI is a complex decoder, you shoudl see ESU V5 decoders. 

Speaking of the Files section, there is a lot of good reference materila there, but it is a total mess to look through. I wish someone (group's owner?) would organize it better


Re: Question for QSI re: new automatic logon procedure for decoders

peteski7
 

What does that mean?  I never "logged onto" any decoder.

Pe


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

 

Peteski: That's one of the problems I have. I have so many manuals that I had downloaded.  And none of them have 448 pages. The one I do have that does have 434 pages is: dated 4/18/14 Ref man for Quantum 3,2&1 vs 5.1.1 for vs 7,8,9. All other manuals have far too few pages. I had spent many hours trying to find the correct manual for my decoder. I had lost the physical manual and that is what really hurts. The manual you mention is not one I have. Next step is to see if I can download the manual you suggest. What really makes this confusing is that I bought the loco in 12/2010 and most of these manuals are dated 2014 or so. The manual I do have that is closest to 12/2010 is dated 8/1/09. All others are newer. And the one you mention is newer. Should I assume that if I simply download the newest manual available and it does verify that it covers firmware version 7, it should still be OK for my old decoder? I have no idea if it's a Q 3,2or1?  I did check the above mentioned one and found where they describe CV62 and 64 and based upon Yank's response, I think I understand why he chose CV62=00 and CV64=01. So I will try that and see what happens. Thanks to all of you that respond.
--
Morgan F Bilbo, DCS50, UT4D, UR93, SPROGIIv4, JMRI 4.24, Pennsy modeler 1952


Question for QSI re: new automatic logon procedure for decoders

kjlovesya
 

Are the people at QSI aware of this?   Does QSI have to change their firmware to accommodate the procedure?

From the open DCC forum:

Hello all,
 
there is a combined attempt from both Railcommunity and NMRA to standardize an automatic logon precedure for decoders. Starting back in 2018, new ideas were discussed amoung the opendcc community and in april 2019 a prove of concept was shown at Intermodellbau in Dortmund and convinced many vendors there.
 
Due to covid 19 there was a break in 2020, but now we are heading for the final spec. Hope we can go for a first release of the spec end of this year.
 
I'm just adapting command station and railcom occupancy detectors to bring up a working test environment.
 
 
best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Wolfgang Kufer
http://www.opendcc.de, http://www.bidib.org


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

Barry Yankolonis
 

Morgan to answer a few points.  If you only use PT than  verbal read back offers little help and you are correct in your assement. There are  a lot of situations where you might want to use POM, for instance when trying to speed match engines.  Yea the verbal acknowledgement is a little redundant, but it does confirm that the decoder accepted and implemented the change.  Even though you are confident that you have sent the correct programing instructions to the decoder, in some cases, the decoder doesn't receive the change or gets it wrong.  That being said, sometimes, as in the case with NCE command stations, which I use, the command station transmits the data in rapid sequences, depending on the commanded changes and if the decoder is verbally responding to the first instruction packet it gets, it misses the rest and your commanded changes are not fully implemented. There are a lot of other variables that come into play when communicating with the decoders either being programming or just simple operating commands.  On one of the other web sites, they show oscilloscope displays of the typical command station outputs to the decoder.  The signal wave forms are not really great.  That the decoders are able to make any sense of the signals is rather remarkable, with the typical distortion in the wave form signals. The information states, that on average, a decoder can only read about 40% of the commands transmitted to it, but is able to comply because of the redundancy/rapidity of the commands being sent. 
I always set CV62=0 and 64=1.  To get engine speed in ops mode with engine running, hit F10 and you will get a verbal speed readout.  It's sometimes a little hard to decipher because the volume of the read out is a little less than the level of the"operational"  sound the engine is emitting.    
Yank 


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

peteski7
 

Morgan,
Your questions about the verbal readback and acknowledgment features are answered in the QSI decoder manual.  The one I have is QSI_CompleteReferenceManualForAllDecoders_V5_2_0.pdf  Those features are only available on OPS mode (on main track).

See page 404-406. There is also mention of why having the verbal acknowledgment enabled can cause problems. See page 448.

Peteski


Re: Proto 2000 Wiring Diagram

peteski7
 

You're welcome Frank -- I'm glad I was able to help out.

Peteski


Re: Proto 2000 Wiring Diagram

ffbrehm@...
 

Peteski,

This helps tremendously, Thank you. I got it from a friend. I’m hoping to put it into an Athearn SW1500. Like you I also wish I could find a few more for some other narrow bodied locomotives.

Frank


Re: I need some clarification, now more!.

 

The response I was hoping for was via email. So we could communicate offline. But, that's OK. I appreciate your response - Yank: My signature block shows what I'm using. A Digitrax original Zephyr. I always update any other that is needed. Hence, JMRI 4.24. When I do programming, I use the SPROG ONLY. No connection to Digitrax. So, what I am saying is: When on the pt/w/SPROG. It currently shows CV62=1 and CV64=0. So I figure I need to change CV62 to 0 to turn off all verbal responses. But what I really want to know is: Why? Or if I  leave verbal on, what good is it, if I don't use POM. Since I do all programming on the SPROG with regular pt mode, and if I remember correctly, in Direct always. The verbal being on POM only? Why do I need it? Or, I can ask in another way. If I use the Zephyr and want to change a CV on POM, would the verbal be of any real use? I ask this because I know that on POM, the Zephyr can not read back. So, what I assume (That's dangerous, I know.) is that using POM, the verbal will tell me what I changed. But since that's what I did, the verbal only verifies. So that is redundant. ?? Am I right? And this is only the first question I have about QSI and CV's. The next is about what I said above. If I do use verbal, is there a speedometer that QSI has that will tell me what speed I'm running? If so, how is it used? As you know, the manuals don't really give detail - only the how to connect, not how to use. And then, it's usually buried so deep in the manual, I take forever to find it and then try to understand it all. Is this clear?
--
Morgan F Bilbo, DCS50, UT4D, UR93, SPROGIIv4, JMRI 4.24, Pennsy modeler 1952


Re: Proto 2000 Wiring Diagram

peteski7
 

Frank,
this is an OEM version of QSI Revolution decoder made for Walthers. It was used in the N Scale 2-8-8-2 loco and also in some H0 locos.  Where did you find that decoder? I could use couple more myself.

Here is the pin-out.  The unmarked pins on the lights (functions output) connector are likely electrically active.  I suspect they contain connection to ground (common negative) and 2 more function outputs. I have not yet determined their functions.  The headlight function outputs (F0F and F0R) have 1.5k ohm resistors on board (so LEDs can be connected directly).



Peteski


Re: Proto 2000 Wiring Diagram

ffbrehm@...
 

Hi Peteski

Guess my previous replay didn't get out. Yes, that is exactly what it looks like.

Frank

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