Topics

WSPR hangs QCX-20


 

My QCX-20 froze up this morning. I was running WSPR on my QCX-20. It had run through several sessions - probably at least an hour's worth at 10 min intervals. At one point I went over to look lovingly at it doing its thing - somewhere around noon, I think, and found that the display was frozen. The clock had stopped, and there were question marks in the last character position of both lines. The unit was completely unresponsive to control inputs. Horrors!
A power cycle brought back to life, and it hasn't done it since. None of the finals seem to have let their magic smoke out.
Regretfully I wasn't thinking enough to be absolutely sure if it was mid-send, though I'm almost sure it was. Shame on me for such sloppy diagnostics; I guess I was too distraught to think clearly,

Thinks: "a reboot on a three second hold-down of both buttons would have been real swell feature..., oh, but that would need more discrete hardware... hmmm, I know what: I'll pull out a reset line to a button when I get a round tuit and put it in a case (the QCX, not the r...)".

Thinks more: "Hmmm, I wonder if it stopped transmitting when it locked up... better ask Hans if the QCX can fail in a 'key down' state."

Possible factors: I have about 10-12 feet of butch, 14AWG speaker wire providing power from the 18.8V 3A regulated supply (Radio Shack 22-504) to my 40m unit, and a 14" daisy chain of decent shielded twin to the 20m. Power supply is on my desk, QCXs are on my window sill. My 40m unit ran all last night with the same power wiring, and was alive and well this morning.

DC voltage at the power terminals only droops by a couple of tens of mV between Rx and Tx modes, so I'm not suspicious of that, though I suppose I could put a couple of hundred uF across the terminals as a decoupler.

Interesting observation: I had "Frame" set to 10, and "Start" set to 12, because that just happened to be the next "x2" start time available when I set up WSPR. I was momentarily caught off balance when, after a send at xx:52, the indicator set the next time to 12, not 02.  It makes sense, now I think about it: not all frame/start combinations are divisible into 60, and such combinations would cause the start time to creep around the clock every hour, so the code restarts each hour with the specified start time. No problem, of course, it just threw me for a moment. I can imagine Hans smiling and saying "Yes, Julian, that's right, now do keep up!"

Julian, N4JO


Hans Summers
 

Hi Julian

You have an excellently accurate imagination OM.

I'd suspect RF getting where it shouldn't. Black magic. Grounds, power supplies, nothing is too sacred. 

I'd add a large electrolytic at the power supply. That's what I do... never harms! 

73 Hans G0UPL 

On Fri, May 8, 2020, 23:10 Julian Opificius <n4jo@...> wrote:
My QCX-20 froze up this morning. I was running WSPR on my QCX-20. It had run through several sessions - probably at least an hour's worth at 10 min intervals. At one point I went over to look lovingly at it doing its thing - somewhere around noon, I think, and found that the display was frozen. The clock had stopped, and there were question marks in the last character position of both lines. The unit was completely unresponsive to control inputs. Horrors!
A power cycle brought back to life, and it hasn't done it since. None of the finals seem to have let their magic smoke out.
Regretfully I wasn't thinking enough to be absolutely sure if it was mid-send, though I'm almost sure it was. Shame on me for such sloppy diagnostics; I guess I was too distraught to think clearly,

Thinks: "a reboot on a three second hold-down of both buttons would have been real swell feature..., oh, but that would need more discrete hardware... hmmm, I know what: I'll pull out a reset line to a button when I get a round tuit and put it in a case (the QCX, not the r...)".

Thinks more: "Hmmm, I wonder if it stopped transmitting when it locked up... better ask Hans if the QCX can fail in a 'key down' state."

Possible factors: I have about 10-12 feet of butch, 14AWG speaker wire providing power from the 18.8V 3A regulated supply (Radio Shack 22-504) to my 40m unit, and a 14" daisy chain of decent shielded twin to the 20m. Power supply is on my desk, QCXs are on my window sill. My 40m unit ran all last night with the same power wiring, and was alive and well this morning.

DC voltage at the power terminals only droops by a couple of tens of mV between Rx and Tx modes, so I'm not suspicious of that, though I suppose I could put a couple of hundred uF across the terminals as a decoupler.

Interesting observation: I had "Frame" set to 10, and "Start" set to 12, because that just happened to be the next "x2" start time available when I set up WSPR. I was momentarily caught off balance when, after a send at xx:52, the indicator set the next time to 12, not 02.  It makes sense, now I think about it: not all frame/start combinations are divisible into 60, and such combinations would cause the start time to creep around the clock every hour, so the code restarts each hour with the specified start time. No problem, of course, it just threw me for a moment. I can imagine Hans smiling and saying "Yes, Julian, that's right, now do keep up!"

Julian, N4JO


Arv Evans
 

Julian

This situation might make one think of some sort of UPS.  It could be as simple 
as a battery in parallel with the mains based power and using simple diode 
isolation so that power would be drawn from the battery only if the mains were 
to fail.  This backup battery could also be charged from the regular mains based 
power source.

I wonder if Hans has considered designing and selling a simple UPS board with the 
batteries to be provided by the user?

Arv
_._

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 2:10 PM Julian Opificius <n4jo@...> wrote:
My QCX-20 froze up this morning. I was running WSPR on my QCX-20. It had run through several sessions - probably at least an hour's worth at 10 min intervals. At one point I went over to look lovingly at it doing its thing - somewhere around noon, I think, and found that the display was frozen. The clock had stopped, and there were question marks in the last character position of both lines. The unit was completely unresponsive to control inputs. Horrors!
A power cycle brought back to life, and it hasn't done it since. None of the finals seem to have let their magic smoke out.
Regretfully I wasn't thinking enough to be absolutely sure if it was mid-send, though I'm almost sure it was. Shame on me for such sloppy diagnostics; I guess I was too distraught to think clearly,

Thinks: "a reboot on a three second hold-down of both buttons would have been real swell feature..., oh, but that would need more discrete hardware... hmmm, I know what: I'll pull out a reset line to a button when I get a round tuit and put it in a case (the QCX, not the r...)".

Thinks more: "Hmmm, I wonder if it stopped transmitting when it locked up... better ask Hans if the QCX can fail in a 'key down' state."

Possible factors: I have about 10-12 feet of butch, 14AWG speaker wire providing power from the 18.8V 3A regulated supply (Radio Shack 22-504) to my 40m unit, and a 14" daisy chain of decent shielded twin to the 20m. Power supply is on my desk, QCXs are on my window sill. My 40m unit ran all last night with the same power wiring, and was alive and well this morning.

DC voltage at the power terminals only droops by a couple of tens of mV between Rx and Tx modes, so I'm not suspicious of that, though I suppose I could put a couple of hundred uF across the terminals as a decoupler.

Interesting observation: I had "Frame" set to 10, and "Start" set to 12, because that just happened to be the next "x2" start time available when I set up WSPR. I was momentarily caught off balance when, after a send at xx:52, the indicator set the next time to 12, not 02.  It makes sense, now I think about it: not all frame/start combinations are divisible into 60, and such combinations would cause the start time to creep around the clock every hour, so the code restarts each hour with the specified start time. No problem, of course, it just threw me for a moment. I can imagine Hans smiling and saying "Yes, Julian, that's right, now do keep up!"

Julian, N4JO


Hans Summers
 

Negative, Arv

In other words... Hans hasn't considered such a thing. Also, Hans doesn't think it likely that he will...

73 Hans G0UPL 


On Sat, May 9, 2020, 00:23 Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Julian

This situation might make one think of some sort of UPS.  It could be as simple 
as a battery in parallel with the mains based power and using simple diode 
isolation so that power would be drawn from the battery only if the mains were 
to fail.  This backup battery could also be charged from the regular mains based 
power source.

I wonder if Hans has considered designing and selling a simple UPS board with the 
batteries to be provided by the user?

Arv
_._

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 2:10 PM Julian Opificius <n4jo@...> wrote:
My QCX-20 froze up this morning. I was running WSPR on my QCX-20. It had run through several sessions - probably at least an hour's worth at 10 min intervals. At one point I went over to look lovingly at it doing its thing - somewhere around noon, I think, and found that the display was frozen. The clock had stopped, and there were question marks in the last character position of both lines. The unit was completely unresponsive to control inputs. Horrors!
A power cycle brought back to life, and it hasn't done it since. None of the finals seem to have let their magic smoke out.
Regretfully I wasn't thinking enough to be absolutely sure if it was mid-send, though I'm almost sure it was. Shame on me for such sloppy diagnostics; I guess I was too distraught to think clearly,

Thinks: "a reboot on a three second hold-down of both buttons would have been real swell feature..., oh, but that would need more discrete hardware... hmmm, I know what: I'll pull out a reset line to a button when I get a round tuit and put it in a case (the QCX, not the r...)".

Thinks more: "Hmmm, I wonder if it stopped transmitting when it locked up... better ask Hans if the QCX can fail in a 'key down' state."

Possible factors: I have about 10-12 feet of butch, 14AWG speaker wire providing power from the 18.8V 3A regulated supply (Radio Shack 22-504) to my 40m unit, and a 14" daisy chain of decent shielded twin to the 20m. Power supply is on my desk, QCXs are on my window sill. My 40m unit ran all last night with the same power wiring, and was alive and well this morning.

DC voltage at the power terminals only droops by a couple of tens of mV between Rx and Tx modes, so I'm not suspicious of that, though I suppose I could put a couple of hundred uF across the terminals as a decoupler.

Interesting observation: I had "Frame" set to 10, and "Start" set to 12, because that just happened to be the next "x2" start time available when I set up WSPR. I was momentarily caught off balance when, after a send at xx:52, the indicator set the next time to 12, not 02.  It makes sense, now I think about it: not all frame/start combinations are divisible into 60, and such combinations would cause the start time to creep around the clock every hour, so the code restarts each hour with the specified start time. No problem, of course, it just threw me for a moment. I can imagine Hans smiling and saying "Yes, Julian, that's right, now do keep up!"

Julian, N4JO


George Korper
 

What voltage was the QCX seeing at the input terminal? 


On Fri, May 8, 2020, 4:31 PM Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:
Negative, Arv

In other words... Hans hasn't considered such a thing. Also, Hans doesn't think it likely that he will...

73 Hans G0UPL 


On Sat, May 9, 2020, 00:23 Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Julian

This situation might make one think of some sort of UPS.  It could be as simple 
as a battery in parallel with the mains based power and using simple diode 
isolation so that power would be drawn from the battery only if the mains were 
to fail.  This backup battery could also be charged from the regular mains based 
power source.

I wonder if Hans has considered designing and selling a simple UPS board with the 
batteries to be provided by the user?

Arv
_._

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 2:10 PM Julian Opificius <n4jo@...> wrote:
My QCX-20 froze up this morning. I was running WSPR on my QCX-20. It had run through several sessions - probably at least an hour's worth at 10 min intervals. At one point I went over to look lovingly at it doing its thing - somewhere around noon, I think, and found that the display was frozen. The clock had stopped, and there were question marks in the last character position of both lines. The unit was completely unresponsive to control inputs. Horrors!
A power cycle brought back to life, and it hasn't done it since. None of the finals seem to have let their magic smoke out.
Regretfully I wasn't thinking enough to be absolutely sure if it was mid-send, though I'm almost sure it was. Shame on me for such sloppy diagnostics; I guess I was too distraught to think clearly,

Thinks: "a reboot on a three second hold-down of both buttons would have been real swell feature..., oh, but that would need more discrete hardware... hmmm, I know what: I'll pull out a reset line to a button when I get a round tuit and put it in a case (the QCX, not the r...)".

Thinks more: "Hmmm, I wonder if it stopped transmitting when it locked up... better ask Hans if the QCX can fail in a 'key down' state."

Possible factors: I have about 10-12 feet of butch, 14AWG speaker wire providing power from the 18.8V 3A regulated supply (Radio Shack 22-504) to my 40m unit, and a 14" daisy chain of decent shielded twin to the 20m. Power supply is on my desk, QCXs are on my window sill. My 40m unit ran all last night with the same power wiring, and was alive and well this morning.

DC voltage at the power terminals only droops by a couple of tens of mV between Rx and Tx modes, so I'm not suspicious of that, though I suppose I could put a couple of hundred uF across the terminals as a decoupler.

Interesting observation: I had "Frame" set to 10, and "Start" set to 12, because that just happened to be the next "x2" start time available when I set up WSPR. I was momentarily caught off balance when, after a send at xx:52, the indicator set the next time to 12, not 02.  It makes sense, now I think about it: not all frame/start combinations are divisible into 60, and such combinations would cause the start time to creep around the clock every hour, so the code restarts each hour with the specified start time. No problem, of course, it just threw me for a moment. I can imagine Hans smiling and saying "Yes, Julian, that's right, now do keep up!"

Julian, N4JO


 

Thanks for thinking about this, Arv, but don't be giving Hans ideas on a UPS - I am but one of a growing pack of slavering hounds baying at the Turkish moon wanting him to finish his QSX :-)

Seriously, though, while not wishing to be so presumptuous as to speak for him, I don't think he would be interested in such a mundane task, preferring to leave it to the rabble who dabble (!) in the simpler world of the odd hundred kHz or two to dream up a buck/boost charge controller. Actually, such provincial devices are almost certainly available online from China for not very much coin at all.

Actually, though you couldn't have known, you are absolutely spot on with regard to my plan, which is to put up a more permanent antenna up at the south east corner of my property, next to my shed/shack-to-be, which is about 60 ft away from my office. My experimental horizontal is currently draped languidly across my patio between my office window to the first in a line of three nearby trees - fully visible outside the kitchen window - and I don't think my wife will be patient for much longer. (Actually the aforementioned three trees are perfectly spaced for a 20m dipole, but that's another story.)

I don't have permanent power to my shed just yet, but I could run an extension cable up there for long enough to charge up a UPS large enough to power a QCX or two for a couple of hours. That is actually also why I'm interested in remote control of the QCX - so I can locate them in the shack and control them from my office via a WiFi link.

Alternatively, I do already have an LED light inside the shed that has a built-in battery and a solar charger circuit; it wouldn't be a terribly bad idea to enhance/replicate that system.

Now if only this schizophrenic Minnesota spring would finally settle down above 55F/13C, I could get up there and do it without freezing my paddle fingers off...


 

About 13.4. - during WSPR xmit.


Arv Evans
 

Hans, and others...

Then this might be a place to start:

                                     1N4007
Mains Supply(13.6V)------------|>|-----|-------------Xcvr Circuit
                                                          |
                                      1N4007       |
Battery (12.0V)--------------|>|-----------|

Key to this power sharing unit is the voltage difference between mains
and battery supply.  As long as the mains supply is more than the battery 
voltage current will be drawn from the mains, but if the mains voltage is 
lower than the battery voltage, current will be supplied by the battery.

This could keep your QRP rig on-the-air, even if the mains were to totally 
fail.

Arv  K7HKL
_._



On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 3:31 PM Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:
Negative, Arv

In other words... Hans hasn't considered such a thing. Also, Hans doesn't think it likely that he will...

73 Hans G0UPL 


On Sat, May 9, 2020, 00:23 Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Julian

This situation might make one think of some sort of UPS.  It could be as simple 
as a battery in parallel with the mains based power and using simple diode 
isolation so that power would be drawn from the battery only if the mains were 
to fail.  This backup battery could also be charged from the regular mains based 
power source.

I wonder if Hans has considered designing and selling a simple UPS board with the 
batteries to be provided by the user?

Arv
_._

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 2:10 PM Julian Opificius <n4jo@...> wrote:
My QCX-20 froze up this morning. I was running WSPR on my QCX-20. It had run through several sessions - probably at least an hour's worth at 10 min intervals. At one point I went over to look lovingly at it doing its thing - somewhere around noon, I think, and found that the display was frozen. The clock had stopped, and there were question marks in the last character position of both lines. The unit was completely unresponsive to control inputs. Horrors!
A power cycle brought back to life, and it hasn't done it since. None of the finals seem to have let their magic smoke out.
Regretfully I wasn't thinking enough to be absolutely sure if it was mid-send, though I'm almost sure it was. Shame on me for such sloppy diagnostics; I guess I was too distraught to think clearly,

Thinks: "a reboot on a three second hold-down of both buttons would have been real swell feature..., oh, but that would need more discrete hardware... hmmm, I know what: I'll pull out a reset line to a button when I get a round tuit and put it in a case (the QCX, not the r...)".

Thinks more: "Hmmm, I wonder if it stopped transmitting when it locked up... better ask Hans if the QCX can fail in a 'key down' state."

Possible factors: I have about 10-12 feet of butch, 14AWG speaker wire providing power from the 18.8V 3A regulated supply (Radio Shack 22-504) to my 40m unit, and a 14" daisy chain of decent shielded twin to the 20m. Power supply is on my desk, QCXs are on my window sill. My 40m unit ran all last night with the same power wiring, and was alive and well this morning.

DC voltage at the power terminals only droops by a couple of tens of mV between Rx and Tx modes, so I'm not suspicious of that, though I suppose I could put a couple of hundred uF across the terminals as a decoupler.

Interesting observation: I had "Frame" set to 10, and "Start" set to 12, because that just happened to be the next "x2" start time available when I set up WSPR. I was momentarily caught off balance when, after a send at xx:52, the indicator set the next time to 12, not 02.  It makes sense, now I think about it: not all frame/start combinations are divisible into 60, and such combinations would cause the start time to creep around the clock every hour, so the code restarts each hour with the specified start time. No problem, of course, it just threw me for a moment. I can imagine Hans smiling and saying "Yes, Julian, that's right, now do keep up!"

Julian, N4JO


 

Funny you say that, Hans: that imagination has got me out of  - and into - trouble on numerous occasions over the decades...

So I waited a couple of hours to see if the phenomenon reoccurred - it didn't - and then I put a nice big 470u/35V bucket on the power supply input terminals of the 20m unit; that should help ward off the demons :-)


Hans Summers
 

Negative, Arv! No! Not Hans!

Julian: the more capacitance the merrier. I have one here that has 4700uF. Never harms :-)

73 Hans G0UPL 

On Sat, May 9, 2020, 01:17 Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Hans, and others...

Then this might be a place to start:

                                     1N4007
Mains Supply(13.6V)------------|>|-----|-------------Xcvr Circuit
                                                          |
                                      1N4007       |
Battery (12.0V)--------------|>|-----------|

Key to this power sharing unit is the voltage difference between mains
and battery supply.  As long as the mains supply is more than the battery 
voltage current will be drawn from the mains, but if the mains voltage is 
lower than the battery voltage, current will be supplied by the battery.

This could keep your QRP rig on-the-air, even if the mains were to totally 
fail.

Arv  K7HKL
_._



On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 3:31 PM Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:
Negative, Arv

In other words... Hans hasn't considered such a thing. Also, Hans doesn't think it likely that he will...

73 Hans G0UPL 


On Sat, May 9, 2020, 00:23 Arv Evans <arvid.evans@...> wrote:
Julian

This situation might make one think of some sort of UPS.  It could be as simple 
as a battery in parallel with the mains based power and using simple diode 
isolation so that power would be drawn from the battery only if the mains were 
to fail.  This backup battery could also be charged from the regular mains based 
power source.

I wonder if Hans has considered designing and selling a simple UPS board with the 
batteries to be provided by the user?

Arv
_._

On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 2:10 PM Julian Opificius <n4jo@...> wrote:
My QCX-20 froze up this morning. I was running WSPR on my QCX-20. It had run through several sessions - probably at least an hour's worth at 10 min intervals. At one point I went over to look lovingly at it doing its thing - somewhere around noon, I think, and found that the display was frozen. The clock had stopped, and there were question marks in the last character position of both lines. The unit was completely unresponsive to control inputs. Horrors!
A power cycle brought back to life, and it hasn't done it since. None of the finals seem to have let their magic smoke out.
Regretfully I wasn't thinking enough to be absolutely sure if it was mid-send, though I'm almost sure it was. Shame on me for such sloppy diagnostics; I guess I was too distraught to think clearly,

Thinks: "a reboot on a three second hold-down of both buttons would have been real swell feature..., oh, but that would need more discrete hardware... hmmm, I know what: I'll pull out a reset line to a button when I get a round tuit and put it in a case (the QCX, not the r...)".

Thinks more: "Hmmm, I wonder if it stopped transmitting when it locked up... better ask Hans if the QCX can fail in a 'key down' state."

Possible factors: I have about 10-12 feet of butch, 14AWG speaker wire providing power from the 18.8V 3A regulated supply (Radio Shack 22-504) to my 40m unit, and a 14" daisy chain of decent shielded twin to the 20m. Power supply is on my desk, QCXs are on my window sill. My 40m unit ran all last night with the same power wiring, and was alive and well this morning.

DC voltage at the power terminals only droops by a couple of tens of mV between Rx and Tx modes, so I'm not suspicious of that, though I suppose I could put a couple of hundred uF across the terminals as a decoupler.

Interesting observation: I had "Frame" set to 10, and "Start" set to 12, because that just happened to be the next "x2" start time available when I set up WSPR. I was momentarily caught off balance when, after a send at xx:52, the indicator set the next time to 12, not 02.  It makes sense, now I think about it: not all frame/start combinations are divisible into 60, and such combinations would cause the start time to creep around the clock every hour, so the code restarts each hour with the specified start time. No problem, of course, it just threw me for a moment. I can imagine Hans smiling and saying "Yes, Julian, that's right, now do keep up!"

Julian, N4JO


 

I see a problem, Arv: your wiring uses a proportional font...

                             1N4007
Mains Supply(13.6V)------------|>|-----|-------------Xcvr Circuit
                                       |
                       1N4007          |
Battery (12.0V)----------|>|-----------|
 
There, fixed :-)

Actually I'd be interested to know if anybody has had good behavior from a boost converter to get a higher DC voltage. You'd have to filter the Dickens out of it, and it would drain the battery quicker, but unless you're carrying it around on a hike, the size of the battery is a small price to pay for better DX.


Arv Evans
 

Julian

Thanks.  I thought I had used a fixed font, but maybe not.

Arv
_._


On Fri, May 8, 2020 at 4:32 PM Julian Opificius <n4jo@...> wrote:
I see a problem, Arv: your wiring uses a proportional font...

                             1N4007
Mains Supply(13.6V)------------|>|-----|-------------Xcvr Circuit
                                       |
                       1N4007          |
Battery (12.0V)----------|>|-----------|
 
There, fixed :-)

Actually I'd be interested to know if anybody has had good behavior from a boost converter to get a higher DC voltage. You'd have to filter the Dickens out of it, and it would drain the battery quicker, but unless you're carrying it around on a hike, the size of the battery is a small price to pay for better DX.


 

Speaking of good behavior...
I've been looking at my activity on WSPRnet all day, checking my reach. It's well dark in Europe now, and I'm STILL getting heard in Sao Paolo, Brazil, in Italy and in Switzerland on 20m. 
If I take a deep breath and wind up the DC a smidge I'll be knocking on Hans' door !!
This WSPR business is great fun; if y'all haven't tried it I enthusiastically suggest you do so: it'll make you love your QCX even more :-)
This is really quite funny: I'm 64, but I'm acting the square root of that; not that that's anything new...


 

Oh no problem Arv... I was trying to make the joke that the wiring itself used the font, not the drawing. The drawing was certainly easy enough to decipher :-)


Bill Cromwell
 

Hi Julian,

I operate my gear from batteries without any digital intervention even at home for powers up to 30 watts or so. I can and have done transmitters in the 100 watt class from a big honking truck battery. Obviously you would not carry that in your pack up a mountain or even a hike on level ground. You can stand back and throw all the filtering you want at a digital power supply and it will still spew noticeably. Even heavy iron linear supplies can conduct power line noise into the receiver. It isn't possible in today's civilization to eliminate *all* man-made noise sources but we should avoid as much as we can. Ergo battery power.

For that backpack and SOTA operation lithium technology saves the day.

73,

Bill KU8H

On 5/8/20 6:32 PM, Julian Opificius wrote:
I see a problem, Arv: your wiring uses a proportional font...
                             1N4007
Mains Supply(13.6V)------------|>|-----|-------------Xcvr Circuit
                                       |
                       1N4007          |
Battery (12.0V)----------|>|-----------|
There, fixed :-)
Actually I'd be interested to know if anybody has had good behavior from a boost converter to get a higher DC voltage. You'd have to filter the Dickens out of it, and it would drain the battery quicker, but unless you're carrying it around on a hike, the size of the battery is a small price to pay for better DX.
--
bark less - wag more