Topics

2m under threat for Thales

Mark m1bxd
 

https://hackaday.com/2019/07/01/the-backbone-of-vhf-amateur-radio-may-be-under-threat/

Lex PH2LB
 

Although not QRPLabs related, it will effect a lot of hams when it would pass.

Why ? 

This small piece of the frequency spectrum (144.0 to 146.0Mhz) is a lot more then just a local chat channel for licensed radio enthusiasts. The hashtag#2m hashtag#hamradio band is the only world wide harmonized hamradio band, not only used for local and regional contacts, but also for rare DX (long distance) contacts and even for EME (bouncing signals against the moon). It is also used by hashtag#students to communicate with there own build hashtag#Satellites ( hashtag#HamSat ) and they use it to communicate with the crew of the International Space Station (IIS). All to inspire them to study of take a course in engineering and/or science. And last but not least, in times of hashtag#disaster and hashtag#emergencies this band is used by various, officially recognized, volunteer hashtag#hamradio hashtag#emergency services who help local authorities. As you can see, there is a lot more then meets the eye. Please read the hashtag#hackaday story linked above and I would like to ask to support your national amateur radio organisation or ask your representative, in opposing this measure. Many thanks and 73. Lex PH2LB

P.s. the text above is a copy I posted earlier today on my LinkedIn profile. The post can be found there : https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6551937556009758720

Copy this post, share it, etc, but spread the word.

Lex PH2LB
 

Sorry, for the "hashtag", the editor on groups.io did a strange copy on the copy/past of my LinkedIn post. :-( 

Braden Glett
 

Lex, thanks. It was nice to read a reasoned rebuttal to this proposal, at a time when so many hams are saying really emotional, ranting things about it. Only yesterday I heard a very stupid man on YouTube (unfortunately with a lot of ham subscribers) advocating that if this passes he is going to go pirate, in reaction. Not exactly the way to influence public policy.
Brady KD8ZM  

Stephen Farthing G0XAR JO92ON97
 

Guys,

I can only speak for what I’ve experienced in the U.K. Two meters, apart from the FM repeater section, is not used much apart from contests. Turn on your radio and tune around if you don’t believe me. Or better still try for some CW or SSB contacts. Good luck! There is an old saying “use it or loose it” and in my experience Amateurs in the U.K. haven’t been using it much for a long time. So I’m not surprised that commercial companies have their eyes on this mostly unused spectrum. I read somewhere that (though I don’t know the truth) that the Thales proposal is to allocate more spectrum for Aircraft to use. Commercial aviation has expanded rapidly especially in the budget airline area. I guess we’ve all benefited from this. So it’s possible that they need more spectrum and Thales are leading the way. 

Now I’m not saying that we should give up without a fight but I can’t see how we can win if we don’t start using 2 meters far more than we do now. 

Regards,

Steve G0XAR




Braden Glett
 

In Ohio (USA) it's the same - turn on your 2m radio and there is nothing. That doesn't mean no one is using it, but few are, most of the time. I tried 2m for a while but it didn't appeal to me at all. I do feel sorry for those who do use it (and might lose it) but I'm not sure what could be done to make 2m interesting to people so that they use it as they once did.

Lawrence
 

Out of curiosity if 2m is not being used in the U.K. what frequencies do you use for public service and emergency response support networks and local chatter?

Here in BC Canada, 2m is used locally for nets, our club as 2 each week, a check-in net and a technical net.  BCFMCA has a daily check-in net that draws 100+ hams on a good day and there are many others.  I don’t know about the rest of the world but here there are something like 6 2m repeaters in the city area and a dozen or more in the regional area.  With the advent of DMR,  D-Star, Fusion and other digital systems we are linked world wide on 2m.  I don’t hear a lot of local chatter or QSO’ing etc but they all have regular nets and are in integral part of the amateur public service and radio emergency response networks.  We use 2m for communications at public service events like marathon, fireworks nights etc.

73 Lawrence Harris VA7EDU

On Jul 3, 2019, at 12:07, Stephen Farthing G0XAR JO92ON97 <squirrox@...> wrote:

Guys,

I can only speak for what I’ve experienced in the U.K. Two meters, apart from the FM repeater section, is not used much apart from contests. Turn on your radio and tune around if you don’t believe me. Or better still try for some CW or SSB contacts. Good luck! There is an old saying “use it or loose it” and in my experience Amateurs in the U.K. haven’t been using it much for a long time. So I’m not surprised that commercial companies have their eyes on this mostly unused spectrum. I read somewhere that (though I don’t know the truth) that the Thales proposal is to allocate more spectrum for Aircraft to use. Commercial aviation has expanded rapidly especially in the budget airline area. I guess we’ve all benefited from this. So it’s possible that they need more spectrum and Thales are leading the way. 

Now I’m not saying that we should give up without a fight but I can’t see how we can win if we don’t start using 2 meters far more than we do now. 

Regards,

Steve G0XAR





Lex PH2LB
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_c4zmlD1UI

Indeed, not the best attitude. 

Lex PH2LB
 

A much better attitude is the guy in this video : 

https://youtu.be/lf14OSTzLNQ 

Keith Ballinger G0RQQ / VA2QU
 

There are a couple of things worth bearing in mind about this proposal:

1) Thales is a big global company and usually gets what it wants, and:
2) Did I say that Thales is a big global company and usually gets what it wants?

Nevertheless, remember that this is a PROPOSAL and not a fait accompli. In the business world, it is easier to negotiate terms DOWN from a proposal than to negotiate UP.

 Therefore Thales may accept a smaller bandwidth than 144-146MHz (not sure why they really need 2MHz bandwidth anyway) to protect the weak-signal and satellite portions of 2m.

Another consideration is that Thales is requesting Primary User status, not exclusivity. Therefore amateurs may still be able to use 2m on a secondary basis, the same as we do on other bands e.g. 70cms, 4m.

Finally, the proposed use of the band is for drones for specific applications so I cannot imagine the whole band being occupied 24/7 with drone data. This goes back to the issue of shared secondary status.

Please don’t think that I am endorsing Thales’s proposal, especially since they only added 144-146MHz after discussions had already been completed on other frequency allocation requests, but only expressing my own viewpoint.

Regards,
Keith G0RQQ 

Braden Glett
 

I disagree that his attitude is "much better," since he advocates breaking the law if 2m is taken away!

Michael N6MST
 

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 11:41 PM, Lex PH2LB wrote:
A much better attitude is the guy in this video : 
Not exactly. He rants and insults other hams. He says he is going to begin illegally jamming stations. This guy is the problem, not the solution.

Lex PH2LB
 

I disagree that his attitude is "much better," since he advocates breaking the law if 2m is taken away!

Not exactly. He rants and insults other hams. He says he is going to begin illegally jamming stations.

Hmmm ok, I thought I saw/heard something different (I could have heard it wrong), so I  checked the video again (including subtitles) and at 4:51, after speaking theatrical about starting jamming and pirating, hey says with a smile, revering to the jamming and pirating,  "I'm not gonna do that". That is how I saw/heard it (but again I could have heard it wrong). 

Regarding the rant, you are right,  he rants. Because seeing my beloved hobby getting sabotaged on HF by a lot of QRM (powerline communication, bad switched powersupplies, bad led light, bad solar power installations), the 2m band was one of the only QRM free bands where I could enjoy my hobby. You can trust me this his rants are way less, then what I did when I got my eyes on the proposal (the XYL came to the shack to asked what had happend).  

And yes he makes some pointers to other hams who in his point of view think the 2m band is the kiddy band. But I have to agree because I have experienced it my self. IMHO 2m isn't a kiddy thing because it's easy to make a local QSO (you could use a handheld for that), it's a thing because it's a challenge to get some real DX distance. And when distance is you goal and you don't want to put much effort in it, HF is the easiest way to go. Because now a days it is more easy to work the world with a simple wire antenna, 20W and FT8 then to setup a descent DX 2m station.  

The attitude that 2m is a kiddy band is the reason that the above proposal from France is made. The Hamradio world is just like a real  world, with a lot of battles, politics, hard feelings between peoples and opinions etc. For examples in the Netherlands there are 2 hamradio  associations VERON and VRZA (ok 3 when you would add DKARS to it). Most of the supporters/members of these associations have very hard feelings about the other association (won't go into detail why) but the VERON is the only dutch association with a voice in the IARU  so the party to defend the our hamradio interest. So when the VRZA (and DKARS) members don't set aside the feelings and support a defense act from the VERON it won't make a good statement.  And as you know, it's easier to concur a divided world.

 

 

 

 

Isn't it rather strange, that so called western democracies advise people in far away lands who are seeing their rights, freedoms and
civil liberties eroded to stand up and resist. Heck we'll even sell 'em arms ;-)

And yet when it's in our own  back yard we get advised to

a) Lean forward
b) Smile
c) take it up the a$$ and don't forget to say thank you.

Thanks, but no thanks.

KEN G4APB
 

On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 08:07 PM, Stephen Farthing G0XAR JO92ON97 wrote:
I can only speak for what I’ve experienced in the U.K. Two meters, apart from the FM repeater section, is not used much apart from contests. Turn on your radio and tune around if you don’t believe me.

People don't speak anymore, its all gone digital and you cant hear it by 'tuning around'!! Take a look at the heavy density of FT8 stations and the Europe wide DX that is being done on this band by signals buried in the noise. A recent milestone was pan Atlantic QSO's taking place!! 
Get WSPRing on this band and keep it occupied.

73 Ken G4APB

 

 
 

Lex PH2LB
 

On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 08:32 PM, KEN G4APB wrote:
Get WSPRing on this band and keep it occupied.
I believe  there is a small company starting with a Q who sells nice kits who also can do 2m WSPR ;-)

Lawrence
 

I think Drone access would be worse than voice for shared use.  If I key up, am I going to shoot down a drone or disrupt its communications.  At least on voice with a person you can spit, swear and ask that the channel be cleared for primary use.

With drones being semi to fully autonomous and with the constellations of low earth orbit satellites for internet communications going up it seems to be unlikely that any drone worth its salt would be using 2m in 10 years.  I think the proposers are just not very far sighted.  By the time the band was cleared the need will be gone.

Not to say we should not fight for keeping more or less the status quo given the investment in current hardware, if we had 20 years to decommission hardware and switch to other bands it might not be so bad.  Kind of like a 99 year lease, if you know the ground rules you can plan for the move - or it’s beyond your personal horizon...

73 Lawrence Harris VA7EDU

Braden Glett
 

If someone is using digital modes and disrupts air traffic voice communication, would they necessarily know it? I don't know the answer but it seems like it would be a relevant question.

Chris Wilson
 

Hello Braden,

Friday, July 5, 2019

Well, there's someone or someTHING around here that is putting a
broadband pulsing signal across the AM air band and the local
airfield are aware and concerned, actively having OFCOM pursue it, I
believe. I have seen it regularly using a simple dongle on my 2m /
70cms antenna, it's not strong enough to blank comms but it's obvious
and wasn't there about a month ago... And even if you didn't know I
would imagine ignorance would not be accepted as a get out of gaol
card, they will take such things very seriously indeed. My pal has a
vintage biplane and was commenting to the people in the tower about
the noise, he said it at times made comms difficult at a distance
from the airfield, which is NOT what you need ;)


Best regards,
Chris 2E0ILY mailto:chris@...


BG> If someone is using digital modes and disrupts air traffic voice
BG> communication, would they necessarily know it? I don't know the
BG> answer but it seems like it would be a relevant question.



--
Best regards, Chris Wilson (2E0ILY)

Roland Williams
 

One thing to check for is electric welding equipment. That’s a pain since it’s broadband. Usually it tends to be fairly localized, though. The folk using it are unlikely to be particularly sympathetic so you may have some trouble getting it off the air.

Best

Roland AE6VL GW4BGD

On Jul 5, 2019, at 5:22 AM, Chris Wilson <chris@...> wrote:

Hello Braden,

Friday, July 5, 2019

Well, there's someone or someTHING around here that is putting a
broadband pulsing signal across the AM air band and the local
airfield are aware and concerned, actively having OFCOM pursue it, I
believe. I have seen it regularly using a simple dongle on my 2m /
70cms antenna, it's not strong enough to blank comms but it's obvious
and wasn't there about a month ago... And even if you didn't know I
would imagine ignorance would not be accepted as a get out of gaol
card, they will take such things very seriously indeed. My pal has a
vintage biplane and was commenting to the people in the tower about
the noise, he said it at times made comms difficult at a distance
from the airfield, which is NOT what you need ;)


Best regards,
Chris 2E0ILY mailto:chris@...


BG> If someone is using digital modes and disrupts air traffic voice
BG> communication, would they necessarily know it? I don't know the
BG> answer but it seems like it would be a relevant question.



--
Best regards, Chris Wilson (2E0ILY)