Re: QRP Monthly Challenge
Rick I have read you, abt 429 here in EA8 (IL07xs) - gave answer but no success.. next time.
-- --- 73 de Erich HB9FIH HS0ZLS
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Re: QRP Monthly Challenge 03:00
Unfortunally I missed the 13/19 UTC Challenge (had visitors here) But got up for 03:00 RV with succcess HA9RP / OK2PUX - QCX / G3KSU I read some QCX eg W9REA an LU1DBI but they din't read me...there was a bit QRN from anywhere (the Atlantic is wide..) HB9FIH in EA8 HS0ZLS
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Re: si5351a issue spectral output above 90Mhz
Craig Johnson
Hi, I am newbie withis qro solid state stuff. I just competed the assembly of the wee 40 Meter rig. It is not working . It appears that the 27 meg Osc is not doit’s it’s thing. Nothing on the scope. Just a line of noise. Xtal defective? Defective synthesizer chi? Tnx. W7WXQ Craig
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Re: Experiences with 50 watt Amp
George Korper
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 6:00 PM geoff M0ORE via Groups.Io <m0ore=tiscali.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
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Re: si5351a issue spectral output above 90Mhz
Allan Nelsson <allan@...>
I don't necessarily think that the Si5351A itself is bad above 90 MHz. I agree that there are better solutions but also at a much higher cost. My RFzero is usable at 200 MHz with spurs at -60 dBc: http://www.rfzero.net/documentation/rf/ I don't have a spectrum analyzer myself but I trust the measurement. Compared to my U3S the RFzero is much better and the best use of a Si5351A I know. 73, Allan / OZ5XN
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Re: 50W amplifier: power rating of TR switch
John Seboldt K0JD
Thanks, Hans, for nicely pointing to all of the stuff that was right there in the documentation! Wow, back biasing the diode at 550 volts! There's some insight into the total ratings issues involved. I once bought a number of true surface mount PIN diodes, I will have to check the junk box and see if their ratings might be greater than a 1N4007. If so, I'm in business. John K0JD
On 1/27/2020 14:56, Hans Summers wrote:
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Re: Experiences with 50 watt Amp
geoff M0ORE
An efficient way of providing reverse power protection is to run the supply through a relay with the relay switched via a diode such that the relay will not operate with the supply reversed. This has several benefits. 1) You can position the relay near to the supply entry point to reduce voltage drop on long leads. 2) the supply can be switched on/ off using a switch rated at much less than the current drawn by the rig, it only has to operate the relay. 3) no voltage drop through the diode, it only supplies the relay. A suitable relay is the automotive type used to supply fans,
heated rear windows etc at currents up to around 30 Amps. Designed
to work at 13.8 volts.
On 26/01/2020 23:34, ajparent1/KB1GMX
wrote:
Hint there is none.
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ajparent1/KB1GMX
The bit of data sheet figure 4 is the define the limitations of the IRF510
safe operating area. Safe in this case means no failure if on a infinite heatsink. Its current vs voltage and the result is how much heat it can stand. ------------------------------- Please reply on list so we can share. No direct email, it goes to bit bucket due address harvesting in groups.IO
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ajparent1/KB1GMX
Don,
It was heat or the device was bad initially from carpet lightning. Keep in mind you can get a IRF510 hot enough to die without even warming the heatsink Simple way is make it dissipate 50W (heat it hard and fast its only a 43 W max device) or exceed the max pulsed drain current of 20 A (blow the bond wires off it). Usually in those cases you hear a pop and the case ruptures. Reason the thermal resistance is high enough you can heat it hard and fast before the heat transfers. I would verify that nothing else is not quite right. For example a intermittent bias pot (or soldering) can easily bounce the bias to 5V and the device will try to draw maybe 10A (and melt). I don't doubt they failed but the cause is not conclusive and heat is still the leading killer. The bias setting is per manual just below the threshold. I used a Tripplite 630 set for 120ma to see that small increase and then back off from it. Actually doing the bias setting at 20V is procedure in the manual. The transistor is not a big old power mosfet at 43W dissipation or 5.6A max current (at 25C). If you want big ole, check IRF520 at 14A, but the gate capacitance at 670pf makes it tougher to drive. Also I've run my 'EBY amp at 26V for years (since '06) and it can do a mere 55W at 20M with 2W drive. Its heatsink is not the limiting factor (its larger) its the max current and its power supply has a current limiter to 4A (that is 26V at 4A or 104W DC input) and pushed to that limit its 75W without blowing up. Gets mighty hot if sustained. During testing 90W out (at 30V and 5A) was the smoke test, devices got to max die temp well before the heatsink was warm. Not bad for two IRF510s in my book. Testing on my bench a relay driver using a IRF510, shorted coil meant the moment the gate was driven the mosfet expired instantly the tab never got warm. Peak current about 14A at 28V. Why? The only limiting fact was the power supply and leads and the on resistance of the IRF510 is about .6 ohms. So the bond wires to the die evaporated. The relay was defective! FYI I have a MSC 100W 2M repeater amp that has an unregulated DC supply nominal voltage for the MRF174 is 28V. However the Transformer-rectifier-capacitor idles (key up, bias off) at 35V and at full power the DC droops to 27V. Not a great design and the PS is being replaced with a 12v to 28V switcher as it had too much hum (rough audio) for SSB. The average nominal 12V radio in the car will see as low as 11.7V (most stop working right there) and as high as 16V non -trivial swing. The spec is + or - 15% centers at 13.8V or a 30% swing in operating voltage. Allison ------------------------------- Please reply on list so we can share. No direct email, it goes to bit bucket due address harvesting in groups.IO
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Re: 50W PA success on 40M, mostly Europe and Scandinavia
Mike Hoddy
With 22v from a SMPS and 1.8V I’m getting about 45W on 40M, it’s ideal for what I want. Just ordered another one for 20M so fingers crossed!
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Re: QRP Monthly Challenge
Steve in Okinawa
Wow, I must stay awake next time for that time segment. I was on 40 shortly before 1300z and experienced the most rapid propagation collapse ever, from 599/599 with a Tokyo friend to unreadable the next minute. 20 was also dead of course, so i just shut down for the duration. JS6TMW
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Re: QRP Monthly Challenge
neil G4BRK
Tried the 1300z session on 20m, as I have several times in the last few months.
Still no QSOs at all despite numerous RBN spots for my CQs all including US. At least I heard some stations this time :-) Antenna a 1/4 wave vertical. Maybe 20m isn't the best band for QRP in the current radio conditions. 73, Neil G4BRK
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Wasn't heat. It was only keyed about 15 seconds. Immediately upon failure I felt the heat sink and it was still stone cold (the lab was unheated and 10 C.).
I originally thought that there had to be some other cause. Turned out to be the MOSFETs. Yep! Dummy load was a 250W thick film mounted on an enormous heat sink and better than 35 dB return loss. Input during bias setting was BNC mount with 32 dB RL. Power supply was a well filtered and regulated analog Harrison Labs. A separate 4.5 volt supply applied PTT signal. Looks like a little bit of DIBL to me. Not something to be expected on a big 'ol power MOSFET. But sure feels like. The amplifier works perfectly, just exactly like it is supposed to. Up to the point of failure (which is my fault entirely) the original transistors did, too. My point in posting was that it might be prudent to perform the bias setting at the highest value of supply voltage anticipated. Can't hurt. I would not assume that there are many amplifiers built where such large excursions of supply voltage are encountered when considering bias settings. Most of those are in linear service and not as subject to variations in threshold. This is actually the first time that I have ever blown an IRF510, come to think about it. I've used them in a lot of rigs. An incredible device and dirt cheap. Then again, this is the first time that I've pushed them this hard. My bad.
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Re: 50W amplifier: power rating of TR switch
Hans Summers
Hi John See the references in the theoretical section of my 50W PA manual to the document by W6JL. And his QRZ page https://www.qrz.com/db/w6jl Don W6JL uses a single 1N5408 diode for switching 600W RF, forward biased with 100mA. The requirements on Don's switch are not the same as mine in the 50W PA. And it's different again in QSX, and in QCX. Often T/R switches need to be considered at the system level. A T/R switch design can't necessarily just be transplanted from one place to everywhere else. Note that sufficient forward bias current is very important, as I found out in another project. All the more so at lower frequencies, where eventually the 1N4007 loses its PIN characteristics and starts to return to rectifier behaviour; then you suddenly end up with a whole bunch of unwelcome harmonics starting with the 2nd. Solid state T/R switching is not, in my opinion, when done properly, a reasonable way to reduce current consumption of the switch, compared to relays. But solid state does have a lot of benefits compared to relays including smaller physical size, lower cost, silent operation, very fast switching and longer lifetime. 73 Hans G0UPL
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020, 16:39 John Seboldt K0JD <k0jd-l@...> wrote: Glad to see the 1N4007-based diode TR switching in the 50W amp kit. I
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Re: si5351a issue spectral output above 90Mhz
ajparent1/KB1GMX
The biggest issue is phase jitter is essentially noise in the frequency
domain ie: FM. All of the papers that address this try to translate that from to amplitude where noise is measured (usually). Its very system dependent. Since the SI5351 is really a UHF PLL followed by integer or fractional (user decides) counters its easy and hard to evaluate noise and side bands. Every divide lowers the phase noise of the UHF VCO and the multiply from 27mhz to PLL VCO frequency multiplys the the phase noise. So on a 1:1 basis at 27mhz or below its likely to be as good or only slightly poorer than the 27mhz reference. At higher than 90-100mhz you in the path problem if even pushing the internal PLL higher to 1ghz you max divisor is only 10 for 100mhz! Using a SA to evaluate spurs be very careful to not introduce spurs or worse from incorrect technique. For those that need better there is he SI570 (also a pain to program). Or go to a crystal and multipliers. For those that want cheap and easy above 100mhz, sorry you need to look at other parts if it isn't good enough for you. They exist but not cheap and likely harder to use. As is complaining about a device that was designed as a clock source data systems is fortuitous for us RF weenies that it works. Allison ------------------------------- Please reply on list so we can share. No direct email, it goes to bit bucket due address harvesting in groups.IO
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Re: QRP Monthly Challenge
Two 1900hr contact both non QCX. First contact was impressed any plans to order QCX.
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Re: 50W amplifier: power rating of TR switch
ajparent1/KB1GMX
The 1N4007 is a 1A diode.
That is a magic intersection for power and current 1A into 50 ohms is 50W. So for higher power you need a heftier diode with good RF switching and they are both scarce or your forced to a RF PIN device at higher cost as those for HF use do not go cheap. At 120W (out I presume) that's well over 1.4A and you will need a heaftier diode. Look here for another design for low power http://www.4sqrp.com/MagicBox.php thats the Jim Kortge MagicBox. That said I've run 1N4007 in parallel for a 100W amp but you need a few changes to get that to work. Also the reverse bias derived from the RF has to be higher so the diodes used there also need higher voltage rating while sill rectifying at RF. Scaling up to higher power is not trivial or easy. Allison ------------------------------- Please reply on list so we can share. No direct email, it goes to bit bucket due address harvesting in groups.IO
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Re: QRP Monthly Challenge
Hans Summers
Correction... JR1BLX just after 11pm local time (2000Z)...
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:16 PM Hans Summers via Groups.Io <hans.summers=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
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Re: QRP Monthly Challenge
Hans Summers
Hi all Family life intervened and I only managed the last 20 minutes... I did work on 40m, 7029.5: YU7AE Kara QRP, but not QCX OM5VS Vlado (not QRP) I was very pleased to be called, after the OM5VS QSO and just after 10pm local time here, by Tada JR1BLX... yes I QSO'ed Japan 9,000km with my 5W QCX 40m... very nice! 73 Hans G0UPL
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 11:04 PM Brian N7BKV <cl@...> wrote: With my QCX 40 I clearly heard KJ4BQS at about 1945z on 7030. No joy on contact though. I am grid CM97vu in California near Yosemite NP. Will be back on for 0300 round.
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Re: Reverse Polarity Protection [Was: Experiences with 50 watt Amp]
ajparent1/KB1GMX
John,
If at 100W your IC725 is only pulling 15A somethings wrong. It will be 18-20A. Typical SSB is about 220 too 240 W input power at nominal 13.8V. The finals run about about 45-to 55% so for 100W out they alone require 200W DC input and the rest of the radio another 20-40W (VFO system, a processing and transmit driver chain). Measured radio is about 2A RX and 3 to 4.5A TX no signal. Parallel devices work if done correctly. Incorrectly they can be unstable. Obviously RF layout is everything and most RF MOSFETs are more efficieint at 28V and higher. I have an amp for 6M using eight total IRF510s in parallel push pull (4x4) for a mere 220W at 30V. Since the device s are current limited to get more power you have to run more voltage (and deal with the impedance). The 50W amp is class C at 70% (no worse than 60%) efficiency and the power out means power in of about 72-83W average at 20V or about 4A. Further the IRF510 has a max current of 5.6A! The current draw is NOT twice 3.6A, it is 3.6A average as only one is on (conducting) at any one point in time. Class C push pull. So during normal ops the dissipated heat is 22 to 30W and the heat sinks are adequate. The yabut is that the IRF510 die has a 2.5 degree C rise for every watt of heat dissipated due to the thermal resistance of the package (die to flange) is the limiting issue. At 30W (80w DC in for 50W RF out) between the two devices is 15W of heat each and the die will heat and additional 37.5C to 62.5C (room temp is 25C). That's at 60% efficient. If we degrade that to 50% we are at 25W each device and we are at a whopping 87.5C die temp. Since the heatsink is at 25C it has thermal mass (intertia) and will not instantly heat up and will take a while to reach temp while the die is getting warmer. As the heatsink heats the die is hotter still. So despite the large enough heatsink you can still heat the device to destruction before it warm the heat sink much over 50C. Long key down is obviously a big problem. IT was designed for class C and CW use. FT8 has proven to the commercial transceiver users and builders that heat is an issue and the only solution is big heatsinks and fans. or a corresponding reduction in power. This was true for the old school AM and RTTY users heating 3-500Zs to a nice orange glow. Now people are frying their finals never noticing the heatsink is very HOT. Allison ------------------------------- Please reply on list so we can share. No direct email, it goes to bit bucket due address harvesting in groups.IO
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