Date   

Re: WSPR Antenna

Mike
 

Use what ever you like, its an experimental hobby.

On 3 Jun 2019 at 17:04, Viktors Miske KC8CKZ wrote:

Well, my Ultimate 3s arrived today! (Along with some extras).  Hopefully
have it up and running by the 4th of July.
But stage 2 of the project comes to mind, that radiating gizmo often referred
to as an antenna.  Personally I plan on building a multi band Fan antenna
(dipole).  At the house I have a 40' tree, but it would have to be at a 45
degree angle.  I may set up in the local park at times where I can easily go
horizontal at 60' (small park, but has 5 Banyan trees).
Just curious on what everyone else runs for their beacon.  And apologize if
this topic is either off, or been covered.

Victor
KC8CKZ




Re: Missing part C53 "332", QCX build

Richard G4TGJ
 

As Alan says it shouldn't matter too much. Hans will send you one if it was missing from the package - just email qrplabs.
--
73
Richard
G4TGJ


Shipping: "Buyer Centers Opens Bag" - problem?

Axel
 

Hi,

waiting for my QCX, tracking says (google translate), "Buyer Centers Opens
Bag":

TURKEY, ISTANBUL İST.ULUSLARARA PIM (AVR) is -BAŞAKŞEH, Buyer Centers
Opens Bag
2019-06-03 18:58

TURKEY, ISTANBUL İST.ULUSLARARA PIM (AVR) is -BAŞAKŞEH, Arrived in
Post Office Work Place
2019-06-03 15:58

Does this mean I'm going to get problems?

Tracking info in original language says:

TÜRKIYE, İST.ULUSLARARASI PİM İSTANBUL(AVR)-BAŞAKŞEHİR, Alıcı Merkez
Torbayı Açtı
2019-06-03 18:58

TÜRKIYE, İST.ULUSLARARASI PİM İSTANBUL(AVR)-BAŞAKŞEHİR, Arrived in PTT
Work Place
2019-06-03 15:58


73
Axel DF1ET


Re: WSPR Antenna

Alan de G1FXB
 

Not Preaching, do your own research.

L.B. Cebik, W4RNL(SK) anttenna writeups I thought good.

Alan

On 04/06/2019 23:45, TrueBlue wrote:
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 05:04 PM, Viktors Miske KC8CKZ wrote:
But stage 2 of the project comes to mind, that radiating gizmo often referred to as an antenna.??
Jeeze...

After a couple of years of struggle, frustration with getting sense about QRPp antenna design from so many self-ordained "experts" has caused me to walk away from ham radio as a bad job.?? :(

And it's all about the antenna.

There is NO aspect of antenna design or application -- absolutely none -- that will not be persuasively contradicted by some other "expert."?? This is no exaggeration.?? If possible it's an understatement.

For a scientific subject presumably based in Physics, with absolute rights and wrongs, this realization was shocking and infinitely depressing.?? Even the information from the ARRL is frequently contradictory.

I'm at an age where climbing trees and falling off the roof are not attractive pastimes.?? I had hoped to do serious research, get a good antenna for my situation up properly on the first try, and then move on to the next step.?? That never happened.?? It was like hitting a brick wall.?? It was like a bad dream.?? It was like Kafka.

Instead of a subject demonstrating intellectual rigor, you get a hysterical uproar of superstition, augury and hearsay (all helpfully driven by deep emotional investment) passing as fact, which it is not.?? All DKE, all the time.

"As Dunning has suggested, the very trouble with ignorance is that it can feel just like expertise."

Here, as just one random example of hundreds:?? Is the optimum QRPp antenna installation different from the optimum general ham antenna installation for the same frequency??? Yes or no.?? I've seen the arguments, some of which even sound persuasive.?? Who's right???

[shrug] WHO KNOWS?

So, the ~40' run of wire I stapled up down my hallway as a "temporary test" when I first powered up my U3S two years ago is still there?? The U3S still runs 24/7 and I check the Internet occasionally to see if anything interesting has fallen into my virtual lobster pot.?? Sometimes it has, usually not.?? That's where my experiment began and ended.

Now, everyone will be furious with me for pointing all this out.?? Just watch.

But they know it's true.







Re: WSPR Antenna

Alan de G1FXB
 

Hi Victor,

On 05/06/2019 04:40, Viktors Miske KC8CKZ wrote:
Not sure what happened, was just curious on what others ran... lol
Oh well, been a ham 23 years now, and after becoming bored last fall, upgraded my license to play on some of the more fun bands. (Mainly ran digital on 2/440, on my homebrew Jpole). For now, running very QRP, just going to start off with a center fed 1/2 wave.?? A no brainer project (my one brain cell gets irked if I over work it)...
Oh, and while I'm here, does anyone have a clue on how to key the U3s??? Manual said it will work for a manual cw xmiter, but see no point in the schematic for this

Guidance is provided on Page 33 of the current U3S Operation manual, Section 3.10 How to use CW

(basically, don't want to run CW, just need to key down the transmitter for testing purposes before I release it into the real world).?? There's a pad on the pc board marked KEY, which is off pin 19 of the MCU, but thats a control line for an amp or xmit led kind of thing.?? If someone has a clue, please do chime in.????

Victor


Re: Missing part C53 "332", QCX build

Alan G4ZFQ
 

I'm missing part C53, a 3.3 NF cap.
How critical is the combination of C15 and C53 ? The combined value should be 36nf, according to the manual on page 21. Is C15 good enough?
Phil,

I'd guess it will not make a great difference, maybe not even noticeable.
It would probably make the audio filtering a little less effective, best put one in sometime.

73 Alan G4ZFQ


Missing part C53 "332", QCX build

Phil N6WKZ
 

I'm missing part C53, a 3.3 NF cap.

How critical is the combination of C15 and C53 ? The combined value should be 36nf, according to the manual on page 21. Is C15 good enough?


73

Phil N6WKZ


Re: WSPR Antenna

Paul AI4EE
 

The near field of a dipole antenna is given by an integral equation, whose kernel is a Bessel function of the second kind, and which possesses a singularity at the antenna's surface. So there is room for a difference of opinion on just where the lines between theory and practice are to be drawn. Mostly, antenna design is an art (4NEC2 not withstanding), so there is plenty of room to stake out and try to defend a territory. Who was better, Rembrandt or Picasso? Which antenna design is better, A or B? I may not know art, but I can experiment with wires. Stay in the game and try some of your own designs. Who knows? You might become famous!

AI4EE

On 6/4/2019 6:45 PM, TrueBlue wrote:
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 05:04 PM, Viktors Miske KC8CKZ wrote:
But stage 2 of the project comes to mind, that radiating gizmo often referred to as an antenna. 
Jeeze...

After a couple of years of struggle, frustration with getting sense about QRPp antenna design from so many self-ordained "experts" has caused me to walk away from ham radio as a bad job.  :(

And it's all about the antenna.

There is NO aspect of antenna design or application -- absolutely none -- that will not be persuasively contradicted by some other "expert."  This is no exaggeration.  If possible it's an understatement.

For a scientific subject presumably based in Physics, with absolute rights and wrongs, this realization was shocking and infinitely depressing.  Even the information from the ARRL is frequently contradictory.

I'm at an age where climbing trees and falling off the roof are not attractive pastimes.  I had hoped to do serious research, get a good antenna for my situation up properly on the first try, and then move on to the next step.  That never happened.  It was like hitting a brick wall.  It was like a bad dream.  It was like Kafka.

Instead of a subject demonstrating intellectual rigor, you get a hysterical uproar of superstition, augury and hearsay (all helpfully driven by deep emotional investment) passing as fact, which it is not.  All DKE, all the time.

"As Dunning has suggested, the very trouble with ignorance is that it can feel just like expertise."

Here, as just one random example of hundreds:  Is the optimum QRPp antenna installation different from the optimum general ham antenna installation for the same frequency?  Yes or no.  I've seen the arguments, some of which even sound persuasive.  Who's right? 

[shrug] WHO KNOWS?

So, the ~40' run of wire I stapled up down my hallway as a "temporary test" when I first powered up my U3S two years ago is still there  The U3S still runs 24/7 and I check the Internet occasionally to see if anything interesting has fallen into my virtual lobster pot.  Sometimes it has, usually not.  That's where my experiment began and ended.

Now, everyone will be furious with me for pointing all this out.  Just watch.

But they know it's true.







Virus-free. www.avast.com


Re: FS: QRP Gear

 

U3S and SDR are sold

NorCal40 is pending funds
--
David

  N8DAH

Kit-Projects.com

Shop is now open!


Re: WSPR Antenna

Viktors Miske KC8CKZ
 

Ya Curtis, quite familiar with FCC's beacon rules...  Only unattended I plan on running will be on 10/6/2 meters, where it's acceptable.  Below 28Mhz, control op needs to be present...   And what beacon? it's a telemetry unit strapped to a turtles back....


Re: WSPR Antenna

Viktors Miske KC8CKZ
 

Not sure what happened, was just curious on what others ran... lol
Oh well, been a ham 23 years now, and after becoming bored last fall, upgraded my license to play on some of the more fun bands. (Mainly ran digital on 2/440, on my homebrew Jpole). For now, running very QRP, just going to start off with a center fed 1/2 wave.  A no brainer project (my one brain cell gets irked if I over work it)...
Oh, and while I'm here, does anyone have a clue on how to key the U3s?  Manual said it will work for a manual cw xmiter, but see no point in the schematic for this (basically, don't want to run CW, just need to key down the transmitter for testing purposes before I release it into the real world).  There's a pad on the pc board marked KEY, which is off pin 19 of the MCU, but thats a control line for an amp or xmit led kind of thing.  If someone has a clue, please do chime in.  

Victor


Re: WSPR Antenna

N8AUM
 

Bill,
off topic here but an easy way to check ur frequency accuracy and stability is using the FreqCal function with WSJT, its at the bottom under the mode selection. It also takes into account ur sound card but usually their close enough not to worry abt it. And don't forget ur PC's system clock should be within + - 1 second all tho I'v decoded stations that were almost 3 seconds off. 
Try using WWV, I found most SW and broadcast stations are off by a few hertz.
good luk !
73 N8AUM


Re: WSPR Antenna

David Latchum <w1vr73@...>
 

One thing I have learned....don't let conventional wisdom stuff your pipe with the wrong tobacco.
Some folks are more zealous then others and some handle their opinion like a treasure chest.
Hangin there and enjoy a great tekky hobby!

You deserve it!
Cheers 73  Dave W1VR


On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 6:45 PM TrueBlue <44-40@...> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 05:04 PM, Viktors Miske KC8CKZ wrote:
But stage 2 of the project comes to mind, that radiating gizmo often referred to as an antenna. 
Jeeze...

After a couple of years of struggle, frustration with getting sense about QRPp antenna design from so many self-ordained "experts" has caused me to walk away from ham radio as a bad job.  :(

And it's all about the antenna.

There is NO aspect of antenna design or application -- absolutely none -- that will not be persuasively contradicted by some other "expert."  This is no exaggeration.  If possible it's an understatement.

For a scientific subject presumably based in Physics, with absolute rights and wrongs, this realization was shocking and infinitely depressing.  Even the information from the ARRL is frequently contradictory.

I'm at an age where climbing trees and falling off the roof are not attractive pastimes.  I had hoped to do serious research, get a good antenna for my situation up properly on the first try, and then move on to the next step.  That never happened.  It was like hitting a brick wall.  It was like a bad dream.  It was like Kafka.

Instead of a subject demonstrating intellectual rigor, you get a hysterical uproar of superstition, augury and hearsay (all helpfully driven by deep emotional investment) passing as fact, which it is not.  All DKE, all the time.

"As Dunning has suggested, the very trouble with ignorance is that it can feel just like expertise."

Here, as just one random example of hundreds:  Is the optimum QRPp antenna installation different from the optimum general ham antenna installation for the same frequency?  Yes or no.  I've seen the arguments, some of which even sound persuasive.  Who's right? 

[shrug] WHO KNOWS?

So, the ~40' run of wire I stapled up down my hallway as a "temporary test" when I first powered up my U3S two years ago is still there  The U3S still runs 24/7 and I check the Internet occasionally to see if anything interesting has fallen into my virtual lobster pot.  Sometimes it has, usually not.  That's where my experiment began and ended.

Now, everyone will be furious with me for pointing all this out.  Just watch.

But they know it's true.







FS: QRP Gear

 

Had a unexpected car repair and need to move a few things out of the shack.

I have the following all built by me.

Norcal 40A 10T-Pot, Solid 3w out tuned for 7.025-7.070ish at 690Hz with built in Touch keyer 4x100char memory with jackyack software. 100$ Shipped

Ultimate3S kit with GPS, 3x bs170 finals installed and filters for 15/20/30/40/80m bands factory reset. 100+ in parts asking 110$ Shipped wired stock for 5v.

Hilltopper20 with LCD mod installed with 3D printed mount. asking 115 $ shipped

HobbyPCB RS-HFIQ 5W SDR with IQ Keyer: comes with cables for audio and pc usb, sold new north of 350$ yours for 275$ Shipped.

Deluxe TennaDipper Custom enclosure 50$ Shipped


More pics for e-mail please contact direct/private gud on the zed Paypal preferred.
 
73
--
David

  N8DAH

Kit-Projects.com

Shop is now open!


Re: WSPR Antenna

Alan de G1FXB
 

Hi Bill,
Not defensive, I'm happy to answer questions posed as best I can. I'm not a font of all knowledge & don't pretend to be.
Everyone is entitled to their own point of view, I am keen to highlight in my view misinformation and misrepresentation*
so one can form their own opinion.
There is not always a black / white question or Pros & Cons of various modes to answer. This and the FT8 thread illustrates that well.
I try to provide the background to what makes my point of view, so if you wish you may "peer :-D" review.


*The bottom line is trust no-one, try it yourself.


If your findings agree with the reference that's great, to be critical perhaps double check the test was a valid indicator in the first place.
If first pass findings don't agree, then question both your own findings & reference data equally....
Just because it was on the internet doesn't make it accurate, however much you would hope it would be.

If you are still with me, comments & background below....

On 04/06/2019 22:33, Bill Cromwell wrote:
Hi Alan,

It looks like you are a little on the defensive here. My comments are not a slur directed at either you or WSPR. I'm sorry if something I said looks that way to you.

I tried WSPR several times actually long ago. Before we got our 630 meter ham allocation there were experimental stations and they were doing the propagation studies with - among other things - WSPR. I tried a number of times to get it to work at my station. I was never part of the experimental license and did not transmit. I did offer some reception reports.

The problem was NOT my five year old (at the time) radio. mine were much older. I have and still play with some very old gear - the newest of that stuff is from the 70s and uses at least one *free running*, L-C oscillator - or more. Some of my legacy gear dates to WW2 and even back to the 1930s. The drift was just too much even though you wouldn't notice as a CW or SSB op. RTTY was good too. And AMTOR in it's day. I learned to reduce the drift but not enough. If I was taking a shot at anything in my previous post it was my own radio gear.

(None confrontationally)
2 minutes of continuous 100% duty cycle key down is a tough ask even for current gear if not well designed for that requirement few but the most recent are.
(There was a comment here about "name the modern rig model from the drift profile".....)
There are many topics on wsprNET.org & others. New / old, cheap or expensive there are good & bad in all.

If you want a challenge try the 15 minute keydown of WSPR15
or or what at first sight an easy mode. One of the QRSS variants, (How hard can it be, it's only pictorial CW after all ?)
If you REALY want a challenge try taming drift & stability for TRX WSPR at 144MHz and above.
Antennas are proportionally so much more convenient & small, why are there so few users?
Since that time (I abandoned WSPR a long time ago) I have acquired radios that have a hope of staying close enough on frequency to give it another try. Without the GPS reference it might fail but I am pretty sure the receiver will not drift off far enough. I will see about that *soon*.

I have no interest at in the beacon transmitter kit. I learned about the QCX about the time I acquired my PFR-3 and considered buying one for 80 and one for 17 meters. Before I bought in I learned about the QSX to be available - hopefully soon. I also acquired a microBitX and I have been using it. It has not slowed my ineterest in the QSX.
Gauging propagation using whatever mode can be fascinating,i it's a pastime in it's own right,
12+ hours with no spots above for instance 60Mtrs (remember it's 100mW and?? a 15ft bit of wire) shows just how low the apparent MUF in that position can be.?? Then later I am spotted on 10Mtrs in Spain with the same bit of wire.
(My real life findings, since Xmas)

My own thought about the compromise antenna was related to how many more signa;s you might log with WSPR with better antennas. That is *my* curiosity. Not a requirement imposed on you.
It's an example dangerously(!) close to a thread on another group you may have already joined...
even with identical antennas
It's VERY unlikely your AGL is the same as mine.
It's VERY unlikely your take off is the same as mine.
It's VERY unlikely your ground conductivity is the same as mine.
Repeat infinitely...

*GOTO Line 6


It's an question only you can answer.
Even when you find that answer that has plagued the life every SWL or ham ever licensed, if you move house then you start again from scratch.
Perhaps the best you can expect is previous reviews provide a short list or headstart ?

If you could see my mail archive you would see that none of the WSPR messages since the first day I tried it have been deleted. I am very interested in what other hams are doing and I do sometimes ask questions. Not as challenges. Just out of my own interest.

73,

Bill?? KU8H

On 6/4/19 2:43 PM, Alan de G1FXB via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Bill,
frequency accuracy requirements on the TX side are pre-deltwith in the U3S kit.
Use good construction practice, common sense,
case the kit, you don't want draughts or heating of the XTAL, use a stable power supply and with the GPS add on option and it's almost a no brainer.
GPS also removes the other variable, you need to start your TX at a particular time +/- 1 Sec
Employ sane & sensible choices in the menu options for cal & step settings,
they need to be different at first turn on for optimal quick course tuning, once it's achieved most of the required calibration trimming use finer correction for utmost freq accuracy.
Also how long you leave between TX cycles and band changes (if any)can influence the cal settings.
All of which have being long discussed on this forum, Hans application notes on the main website, etc, etc.
The results are guaranteed as much as they can be in a self built kit....


Yes, its perhaps more demanding on the RX side! You need to accurately need to know where you are and stay there.
A HRO is perhaps a poor choice, after all WSPR employs a 200Hz wide passband, not KHz.
You can quantify your chances of success before even downloading the WSPR EXE. Tune to one of the off air HF Time & Frequency Standards.....
Failing that, tune to a BC station. Zero beat it / use ARGO or SL applications. It costs you nothing.
Look on one of the WSPR reporting sites.
Choose any call sign as the sender station and look at the frequency variation given by the reporters.......
Some employ reference locked RX stations. some are plainly wrong?
They are the loosers in the bragging rights, by not correctly setting their receiving window....
"Surprisingly" QRP-Labs provide cheap modules you could assemble and use to make an accurate RX as they are,
or build into a different design you favour
3rd party inaccuracy is out of your control, don't sweat it.


Use any mode you favour,I suspect I may differ?but I don't see WSPR as a new toy, created 2008?
A popular solution perhaps was something similar to http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus/WSPR/wspr_v4.pdf
Simple blocks, a Xtal LO, no oven & no GPS. But careful construction & common sense such as dont put the Xtal in the same box as the PA and it worked.
All pre the DDS & synth in a chip solutions of today to generate the carrier.
Heck today you can use a RPi and waggle a IO pin if you want to radiate WSPR signals without using a transmitter circuit....
recently there was a declaration that WSPR is no longer of value, everyone has moved on to FT8 it's superior.
This is incorrect, like for like figures indicate WSPR will decode further into the noise (SNR) you can also fit more TX stations in an identical B/W
WSPR is created as a no compromise one-way mode with efficient use to bandwidth, not QSO mode by design. However new,It's not all about speed.
The U3S by it's self (as a majority are built and will be used) is incapable of two way communication
What you are seeing is easily explained. There are more (T?)RX stations on on the latest & greatest mode, not that it is technically superior in any way.


as to the question on how well with an efficient antenna, What am I missing.
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it,
does it make a sound?"
Do you foresee a "problem"?
My low output WSPR beacon on a bit of wire gets heard,
It can be argued it's further compromised.
My meagre signal is still further flattened by the BIG guns running 500mW....
I'm one of those "awkward" people who all sit on top of each other, middle of the window.
Why do I do that deliberately, because it gives me easy(ier) numbers to flag the frequency differences
should someone receive me......



On your comment that you may re-try wspr, now that you have a couple of radio's possessing more stable oscillators.
How much did they cost Verses the costs for a proven solution of a QRP-Labs U3S transmitter & ProgRock or VFO Kit / Receiver kit and a GPS kit.
In your favour the new radio's probably do modes & freq capabilities different to the U3S etc.
But *you didn't have to upgrade to new radios in order to meet the requirements for WSPR?* / the "original" radios could be on another band or mode you originally purchased them for?


I don't need to convince you, or anyone else. There is no one size fit's all.
I feel my U3 does me.



regards Alan


On 04/06/2019 16:31, Bill Cromwell wrote:
Hi Alan,

I don't use WSPR at all. Once (or twice) upon a time I tried WSPR but failed completely. Toys like WSPR give new meaning to frequency stability for an amateur. "Good enough" is still good enough but that tied to requirements of different modes. I may try it again one of these days now that I have 'more stable' oscillators in a couple of radios. Let me write that on the white-board.

I do use FT8 as a propagation indicator without ever transmitting anything. The station call sign we are actually copying is clearly listed so the band is open to (from) there. The station (s)he is working is also listed so we can consider that path too, even if we cannot hear the other station (I often can).

How well would it work if you deployed an intentionally efficient antenna?

73,

Bill?? KU8H

On 6/4/19 11:15 AM, Alan de G1FXB via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Victor,
You may be surprised just how good the WSPR mode can be, with no / minimal effort..


I run a random length of wire (no more than 15feet)?? pinned to the facia board approx 9 foot above ground level on a stable block.
No ATU, no counterpoise or secondary ground rod connection.
I don't claim to be heard on all continents at any one time,
I use WSPR as a propagation indicator, not as an automated WAC certificate collection tool.....


I do reach the other side of the world when band conditions are good,
and have beyond the norm spots on 10Mtrs (low VHF) so suggesting sporadic E, etc, etc.Single BS170 as supplied by Hans in my kit, fed with 5V in recognition of no ATU matching, through a 3dB attenuator to restrict the worse case SWR seen by the PA to 2:1?? (Previously unaware of existence of everlasting BS170's)


It's being running pretty much 24/7/365 since 2013, (It's a U3 so is at a disadvantage to the later U3S design having a less efficient "PA" configuration.
Never more than a day or two down time, most often caused by a "brown out" on the power feed to the field.
power changes per band, I don't recall more than 100mW measured on any band?? even at it's sweet spot at on the LF bands
With the U3S expect circa 250mW
Further crippled by the fact it band hops 160-10MTRs so doesn't hammer every two minute cycle on what ever is the best choice band at anyone time.
Check one of the WSPR reporting sites?

Personally think it's good value & have got my monies worth
In all probability you will do better...

regards Alan



On 04/06/2019 01:04, Viktors Miske KC8CKZ wrote:
Well, my Ultimate 3s arrived today! (Along with some extras).?? Hopefully have it up and running by the 4th of July.
But stage 2 of the project comes to mind, that radiating gizmo often referred to as an antenna.?? Personally I plan on building a multi band Fan antenna (dipole).?? At the house I have a 40' tree, but it would have to be at a 45 degree angle.?? I may set up in the local park at times where I can easily go horizontal at 60' (small park, but has 5 Banyan trees).
Just curious on what everyone else runs for their beacon.?? And apologize if this topic is either off, or been covered.

Victor
KC8CKZ






Re: WSPR Antenna

Curt wb8yyy
 

Victor

Asking hams to suggest then debate antennas is a real hornets nest. My barefoot U3S reaches half way around the world on 30 and 40 meters using a vertical.

Likely you may not have an antenna that matches 6 or more bands without human intervention. I use my U3S on a couple bands at a time where antenCurt
na is suitably matched. Use whatever you have in mind for normal operating.

Be careful with term beacon. At least in the US, maybe other places also,  it is not permitted by regulations to operate wspr unattended,  even at 200 mW. I suggest not transmitting 24/7 but occasionally with it.

Curt


Re: WSPR Antenna

TrueBlue
 

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 05:04 PM, Viktors Miske KC8CKZ wrote:
But stage 2 of the project comes to mind, that radiating gizmo often referred to as an antenna. 
Jeeze...

After a couple of years of struggle, frustration with getting sense about QRPp antenna design from so many self-ordained "experts" has caused me to walk away from ham radio as a bad job.  :(

And it's all about the antenna.

There is NO aspect of antenna design or application -- absolutely none -- that will not be persuasively contradicted by some other "expert."  This is no exaggeration.  If possible it's an understatement.

For a scientific subject presumably based in Physics, with absolute rights and wrongs, this realization was shocking and infinitely depressing.  Even the information from the ARRL is frequently contradictory.

I'm at an age where climbing trees and falling off the roof are not attractive pastimes.  I had hoped to do serious research, get a good antenna for my situation up properly on the first try, and then move on to the next step.  That never happened.  It was like hitting a brick wall.  It was like a bad dream.  It was like Kafka.

Instead of a subject demonstrating intellectual rigor, you get a hysterical uproar of superstition, augury and hearsay (all helpfully driven by deep emotional investment) passing as fact, which it is not.  All DKE, all the time.

"As Dunning has suggested, the very trouble with ignorance is that it can feel just like expertise."

Here, as just one random example of hundreds:  Is the optimum QRPp antenna installation different from the optimum general ham antenna installation for the same frequency?  Yes or no.  I've seen the arguments, some of which even sound persuasive.  Who's right? 

[shrug] WHO KNOWS?

So, the ~40' run of wire I stapled up down my hallway as a "temporary test" when I first powered up my U3S two years ago is still there  The U3S still runs 24/7 and I check the Internet occasionally to see if anything interesting has fallen into my virtual lobster pot.  Sometimes it has, usually not.  That's where my experiment began and ended.

Now, everyone will be furious with me for pointing all this out.  Just watch.

But they know it's true.







Re: WSPR Antenna

John Canfield <bucket@...>
 

My U3S is putting about 250 mw into a MyAntenna end fed dipole. I get lots of spots every 10 minutes on 30m. My drift is almost always zero, with an occasional one or two Hz thrown in.
--
John, WB5THT


Re: WSPR Antenna

Bill Cromwell
 

Hi Alan,

It looks like you are a little on the defensive here. My comments are not a slur directed at either you or WSPR. I'm sorry if something I said looks that way to you.

I tried WSPR several times actually long ago. Before we got our 630 meter ham allocation there were experimental stations and they were doing the propagation studies with - among other things - WSPR. I tried a number of times to get it to work at my station. I was never part of the experimental license and did not transmit. I did offer some reception reports.

The problem was NOT my five year old (at the time) radio. mine were much older. I have and still play with some very old gear - the newest of that stuff is from the 70s and uses at least one *free running*, L-C oscillator - or more. Some of my legacy gear dates to WW2 and even back to the 1930s. The drift was just too much even though you wouldn't notice as a CW or SSB op. RTTY was good too. And AMTOR in it's day. I learned to reduce the drift but not enough. If I was taking a shot at anything in my previous post it was my own radio gear.

Since that time (I abandoned WSPR a long time ago) I have acquired radios that have a hope of staying close enough on frequency to give it another try. Without the GPS reference it might fail but I am pretty sure the receiver will not drift off far enough. I will see about that *soon*.

I have no interest at in the beacon transmitter kit. I learned about the QCX about the time I acquired my PFR-3 and considered buying one for 80 and one for 17 meters. Before I bought in I learned about the QSX to be available - hopefully soon. I also acquired a microBitX and I have been using it. It has not slowed my ineterest in the QSX.

My own thought about the compromise antenna was related to how many more signa;s you might log with WSPR with better antennas. That is *my* curiosity. Not a requirement imposed on you.

If you could see my mail archive you would see that none of the WSPR messages since the first day I tried it have been deleted. I am very interested in what other hams are doing and I do sometimes ask questions. Not as challenges. Just out of my own interest.

73,

Bill KU8H

On 6/4/19 2:43 PM, Alan de G1FXB via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Bill,
frequency accuracy requirements on the TX side are pre-deltwith in the U3S kit.
Use good construction practice, common sense,
case the kit, you don't want draughts or heating of the XTAL, use a stable power supply and with the GPS add on option and it's almost a no brainer.
GPS also removes the other variable, you need to start your TX at a particular time +/- 1 Sec
Employ sane & sensible choices in the menu options for cal & step settings,
they need to be different at first turn on for optimal quick course tuning, once it's achieved most of the required calibration trimming use finer correction for utmost freq accuracy.
Also how long you leave between TX cycles and band changes (if any)can influence the cal settings.
All of which have being long discussed on this forum, Hans application notes on the main website, etc, etc.
The results are guaranteed as much as they can be in a self built kit....
Yes, its perhaps more demanding on the RX side! You need to accurately need to know where you are and stay there.
A HRO is perhaps a poor choice, after all WSPR employs a 200Hz wide passband, not KHz.
You can quantify your chances of success before even downloading the WSPR EXE. Tune to one of the off air HF Time & Frequency Standards.....
Failing that, tune to a BC station. Zero beat it / use ARGO or SL applications. It costs you nothing.
Look on one of the WSPR reporting sites.
Choose any call sign as the sender station and look at the frequency variation given by the reporters.......
Some employ reference locked RX stations. some are plainly wrong?
They are the loosers in the bragging rights, by not correctly setting their receiving window....
"Surprisingly" QRP-Labs provide cheap modules you could assemble and use to make an accurate RX as they are,
or build into a different design you favour
3rd party inaccuracy is out of your control, don't sweat it.
Use any mode you favour,I suspect I may differ?but I don't see WSPR as a new toy, created 2008?
A popular solution perhaps was something similar to http://www.knology.net/~gmarcus/WSPR/wspr_v4.pdf
Simple blocks, a Xtal LO, no oven & no GPS. But careful construction & common sense such as dont put the Xtal in the same box as the PA and it worked.
All pre the DDS & synth in a chip solutions of today to generate the carrier.
Heck today you can use a RPi and waggle a IO pin if you want to radiate WSPR signals without using a transmitter circuit....
recently there was a declaration that WSPR is no longer of value, everyone has moved on to FT8 it's superior.
This is incorrect, like for like figures indicate WSPR will decode further into the noise (SNR) you can also fit more TX stations in an identical B/W
WSPR is created as a no compromise one-way mode with efficient use to bandwidth, not QSO mode by design. However new,It's not all about speed.
The U3S by it's self (as a majority are built and will be used) is incapable of two way communication
What you are seeing is easily explained. There are more (T?)RX stations on on the latest & greatest mode, not that it is technically superior in any way.
as to the question on how well with an efficient antenna, What am I missing.
"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it,
does it make a sound?"
Do you foresee a "problem"?
My low output WSPR beacon on a bit of wire gets heard,
It can be argued it's further compromised.
My meagre signal is still further flattened by the BIG guns running 500mW....
I'm one of those "awkward" people who all sit on top of each other, middle of the window.
Why do I do that deliberately, because it gives me easy(ier) numbers to flag the frequency differences
should someone receive me......
On your comment that you may re-try wspr, now that you have a couple of radio's possessing more stable oscillators.
How much did they cost Verses the costs for a proven solution of a QRP-Labs U3S transmitter & ProgRock or VFO Kit / Receiver kit and a GPS kit.
In your favour the new radio's probably do modes & freq capabilities different to the U3S etc.
But *you didn't have to upgrade to new radios in order to meet the requirements for WSPR?* / the "original" radios could be on another band or mode you originally purchased them for?
I don't need to convince you, or anyone else. There is no one size fit's all.
I feel my U3 does me.
regards Alan
On 04/06/2019 16:31, Bill Cromwell wrote:
Hi Alan,

I don't use WSPR at all. Once (or twice) upon a time I tried WSPR but failed completely. Toys like WSPR give new meaning to frequency stability for an amateur. "Good enough" is still good enough but that tied to requirements of different modes. I may try it again one of these days now that I have 'more stable' oscillators in a couple of radios. Let me write that on the white-board.

I do use FT8 as a propagation indicator without ever transmitting anything. The station call sign we are actually copying is clearly listed so the band is open to (from) there. The station (s)he is working is also listed so we can consider that path too, even if we cannot hear the other station (I often can).

How well would it work if you deployed an intentionally efficient antenna?

73,

Bill?? KU8H

On 6/4/19 11:15 AM, Alan de G1FXB via Groups.Io wrote:
Hi Victor,
You may be surprised just how good the WSPR mode can be, with no / minimal effort..


I run a random length of wire (no more than 15feet)?? pinned to the facia board approx 9 foot above ground level on a stable block.
No ATU, no counterpoise or secondary ground rod connection.
I don't claim to be heard on all continents at any one time,
I use WSPR as a propagation indicator, not as an automated WAC certificate collection tool.....


I do reach the other side of the world when band conditions are good,
and have beyond the norm spots on 10Mtrs (low VHF) so suggesting sporadic E, etc, etc.Single BS170 as supplied by Hans in my kit, fed with 5V in recognition of no ATU matching, through a 3dB attenuator to restrict the worse case SWR seen by the PA to 2:1?? (Previously unaware of existence of everlasting BS170's)


It's being running pretty much 24/7/365 since 2013, (It's a U3 so is at a disadvantage to the later U3S design having a less efficient "PA" configuration.
Never more than a day or two down time, most often caused by a "brown out" on the power feed to the field.
power changes per band, I don't recall more than 100mW measured on any band?? even at it's sweet spot at on the LF bands
With the U3S expect circa 250mW
Further crippled by the fact it band hops 160-10MTRs so doesn't hammer every two minute cycle on what ever is the best choice band at anyone time.
Check one of the WSPR reporting sites?

Personally think it's good value & have got my monies worth
In all probability you will do better...

regards Alan



On 04/06/2019 01:04, Viktors Miske KC8CKZ wrote:
Well, my Ultimate 3s arrived today! (Along with some extras).?? Hopefully have it up and running by the 4th of July.
But stage 2 of the project comes to mind, that radiating gizmo often referred to as an antenna.?? Personally I plan on building a multi band Fan antenna (dipole).?? At the house I have a 40' tree, but it would have to be at a 45 degree angle.?? I may set up in the local park at times where I can easily go horizontal at 60' (small park, but has 5 Banyan trees).
Just curious on what everyone else runs for their beacon.?? And apologize if this topic is either off, or been covered.

Victor
KC8CKZ
--
bark less - wag more


Re: WSPR Antenna

ajparent1/KB1GMX
 

I use decent antennas for everything as if its poor and nothing happens 
where is the problem?

So End fed half wave monoband so I know its pattern (like a centerfed dipole).

A long while back I experimented with WSPR on 40m and at about 15mW
of power it produced a number of hits across the pond.    Around that time
(same day about a few hours earlier) I also worked a VK foundation station
mobile QRP SSB on 40 so morning greyline propagation had to be really
good with an EIRP of maybe 400mW on my end and 10W into a dipole up
high at his end.  I found if the drift across a 10 minute span was a few HZ
it was good enough so long as it hit the middle of the other guys passband.

I'm rarely surprised how far a weak signal goes, but often shocked how
far a strong 100W signal doesn't go.  

Allison