Date   

Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Alan de G1FXB
 

Hi Bill,
    No problem, and no need to promise to do better.
We are not at school now....  :-)

(My first job,, if I did more than 35 repairs a week I earned bonus on every job there after.
Customers were always keen to get their unit back,
so If I could earn more money & have an easy life.....)

The 'mind set' is hard to break when somebody is working on the same unit)


AnOther Alan

On 16/02/2018 14:56, nz0tham@... wrote:
Sorry Alan, I have a life and I’m busy.  I’ll try and do better in the future.
73, Bill NZ0T

73, 


QLG1 readout on U3S? #qlg

Retired Doc
 

Hi All,

My U3S (v3.12) is now up and running and doing great.  I am just curious why I do not have a 2D or 3D indicator on the GPS signal with the QLG1, like I do with the SKM61 that I have on my U3 (v3.09)?  The A indicates a valid signal, and everything else looks good.  Just curious.  Thanks.

73, Kent KC9LIF


Re: QLG1 not seeing Sats

GD
 

Hello Howard,

Not a fix and I read your posts about happenings but the circuit diagram shows that if the 4 connections to the QCX  are 180 degree reversed wired during build the LEDs will all light but of course the QLG1 will be inop. No smoke or flames either.

73 Geoff G4CAO


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

nz0tham@...
 

Sorry Alan, I have a life and I’m busy.  I’ll try and do better in the future.
73, Bill NZ0T

73, 


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Alan de G1FXB
 

Hi Alan & Chris,

I suggested images would be useful to the group, on my posts dated 7 & 12th feb
This thread started on the 6th? I had given up on getting images,
its taken until 15th to get voltages

We are all different, it what makes the world... :-)

Whats common(?) is:-

To go forward, The group needs info, from who has the 'problem'
Photo's, Voltages, etc, etc.
Make it easy(ier) to help us help you.....


AnOther Alan

On 16/02/2018 11:45, Alan G4ZFQ wrote:
Bill,
Check that R1, R2 are both 10K and that there is 5V on one end of R2.
Then have you an ohmmeter to measure across C6, C43, 44?


Do I (we?) think a new (Ceramic Film)  capacitor is ACTUALLY short?
Unlikely, but it's possible. (Could have been overheated on soldering,
maybe....
Alan,

No, the way  I'm thinking is before blaming modern components looking very carefully for a whisker, even one left unetched by the board manufacturer.

The IC5 inputs are fed from the same place but are different. This fault may not be connected with the oscillation, there seems to be no path back to the IC5 inputs.

Yes, we all look at things differently, it's not easy when the board is thousands of miles away. As Chris says good high resolution pictures have helped in some cases.

73 Alan G4ZFQ


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Alan G4ZFQ
 

Bill,
Check that R1, R2 are both 10K and that there is 5V on one end of R2.
Then have you an ohmmeter to measure across C6, C43, 44?


Do I (we?) think a new (Ceramic Film) capacitor is ACTUALLY short?
Unlikely, but it's possible. (Could have been overheated on soldering,
maybe....
Alan,

No, the way I'm thinking is before blaming modern components looking very carefully for a whisker, even one left unetched by the board manufacturer.

The IC5 inputs are fed from the same place but are different. This fault may not be connected with the oscillation, there seems to be no path back to the IC5 inputs.

Yes, we all look at things differently, it's not easy when the board is thousands of miles away. As Chris says good high resolution pictures have helped in some cases.

73 Alan G4ZFQ


Re: QCX 20 #1935 oscillation when turned on.

Alan G4ZFQ
 

Group. When I assembled this unit I installed R17 backwards. My thought was what would it matter! I forgot this until I started following Hans trouble shooting guide. And it was there in RED in the assembly instructions!!!
Glen,

Presumably the centre pin is the slider. If so the operation will not be affected. So if it's resistance changes when you adjust it it will work.
I think what will differ is the rotation direction when adjusting, that will not matter, you just set it for a minimum reading.

73 Alan G4ZFQ


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Chris Wilson
 

Hello Alan,

Friday, February 16, 2018


IMHO some really good macro photos of the troublesome builds uploaded
here or elsewhere and linked to could save some grief, several pairs
of (possibly younger....) eyes can be illuminating!

Hi Alan
           
Anything is possible.
Yes there could be a short circuit.
Do I (we?) think a new (Ceramic Film)  capacitor is ACTUALLY short?
Unlikely, but it's possible. (Could have been overheated on soldering, maybe....
If it were a tantalum,  or electrolytic, more likely to fail
short circuit. But a new component?)
Something external, construction related?
More likely.
Also Han's has found open traces, 'broken' resistors in his fault findings, just to add spice?.....
In an ideal world...
Open & short circuits and miss-inserted components SHOULD be
found without needing any test equipment
other than the Mark I eyeball, on the VISUAL inspection.
 
My thinking, before chasing my / our tail's.
The fault symptoms of this unit it has controllable (by the
position of the AF Gain Control) self oscillation,
we don't know if these DC measurements were made with it in oscillation or not?
Do checks easily measured with a DVM, away from anything likely to
oscillate, like the op-amps at this time.
(we are stuck with IC4 QSD switcher in circuit...)
Set the ground work first.
Is there half rail voltage at junc R1 / R2?
There defiantly should be.....
If not, then we can find out why it's not there and go from there.

I don't claim 'MY flow' to fault finding is the only way.
It's bullet points to ONE way, NOT always the most direct....
But based on not having the PCB physically in-front of me,
and trying to avoid being led up the garden path when sometimes
the group are presented with slightly misleading information.
(I can think of one recently that kept the group busy for a few weeks,
 PM for an example if you wish?)

I just love school  :-)


AnOther Alan





--

2E0ILY
Best regards,
Chris mailto:chris@chriswilson.tv
--
Best regards, Chris Wilson (2E0ILY)


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Alan de G1FXB
 

Hi Alan
           
Anything is possible.
Yes there could be a short circuit.

Do I (we?) think a new (Ceramic Film)  capacitor is ACTUALLY short?
Unlikely, but it's possible. (Could have been overheated on soldering, maybe....
If it were a tantalum,  or electrolytic, more likely to fail short circuit. But a new component?)

Something external, construction related?
More likely.

Also Han's has found open traces, 'broken' resistors in his fault findings, just to add spice?.....


In an ideal world...
Open & short circuits and miss-inserted components SHOULD be found without needing any test equipment
other than the Mark I eyeball, on the VISUAL inspection.
 
My thinking, before chasing my / our tail's.
The fault symptoms of this unit it has controllable (by the position of the AF Gain Control) self oscillation,
we don't know if these DC measurements were made with it in oscillation or not?
Do checks easily measured with a DVM, away from anything likely to oscillate, like the op-amps at this time.
(we are stuck with IC4 QSD switcher in circuit...)


Set the ground work first.

Is there half rail voltage at junc R1 / R2?
There defiantly should be.....
If not, then we can find out why it's not there and go from there.


I don't claim 'MY flow' to fault finding is the only way.

It's bullet points to ONE way, NOT always the most direct....
But based on not having the PCB physically in-front of me,
and trying to avoid being led up the garden path when sometimes
the group are presented with slightly misleading information.
(I can think of one recently that kept the group busy for a few weeks,
 PM for an example if you wish?)


I just love school  :-)



AnOther Alan



On 16/02/2018 07:36, Alan G4ZFQ wrote:

Han's voltage table T1 pins 5, 6, 7 & 8 2.36 volts
your check T1 pins 5,6,7,8  all 0.30
Assembly Manual Section 5.5 explains circuit.
R1 & R2 are both 10K Ohms configured as as a voltage divider.
You have approx 5v on the top end of R2?
There SHOULD be approx half voltage junction R1 & R2
0 Ohm continuity from the other end of R1 to 0V rail connection
how does the voltage divider check out?
next possibles, T1 secondary winding continuity 1 & 2 or IC4 internal s/c pin 7/9 to 0V (unlikely)?

Alan,

The T1 connections are switched to the IC5 inputs, IC5A inputs are low. IC5B are nearer the expected.
Do you think a shorted C43 or C44 might cause this?

73 Alan G4ZFQ


I measured voltages using the internal DVM.  I did not measure the LCD because it works fine.   Many of these are way off - I hope a better tech than me sees a pattern here!  Sorry for the long post.
Here they are:
+ supply terminal   12.12
Clk0 test pin  1.70
Clk1 test pin  1.70    both approximate
Left side C2  3.46
Right side D2  5.02
T1 pins 1,2,3,4   all zero
T1 pins 5,6,7,8  all 0.30
Top side of C43  0.26
Top side of C44  0.24
                  C45  0.41
                  C46  0.51
IC5 pin 1  11.00
            2   0.35
             3  0.33
            4   0
            5  0.51
            6  0.51
            7  4.00
            8  11.79
IC6 pin 1  4.00
            2  4.01
            3  3.29
            4  0
            5  4.15
            6  4.00
            7  4.00
            8  11.79
IC7 pin 1  10.19
            2   9.70
            3  8.19
            4  0
            5  7.89
            6  9.80
            7  10.86
            8  11.79
IC8 pin 1  7.36
             2 7.36
             3  0.87
             4  0
             5  1.20
             6  7.38
             7  7.35
             8  11.79
IC9 pin 1  4.86
            2  4.86
            3  0.65
            4  0
            5  1.10
            6  7.34
            7  7.34
            8  11.89
IC10 pin 1  5.92
               2 5.92
               3  5.92
               4  0
               5  4.27
               6  3.86
               7  5.77
               8  11.47






Re: VFO encoder clicks #qcx

Chris Wilson
 

Hello Hans,

Friday, February 16, 2018

Hi Hans, thanks for the detailed reply, I have no issues with the
stability of the FOX oscillator in my U3S, but I do like fiddling :)

Hi Chris
 
Talking  of the Si family of synthesisers is it feasible to modify a U3S to lock
the synthesiser to a GPS 10MHz frequency standard?    Thanks.



Feasible, yes. There are several ways of doing it. You could divide
the 10MHz by 10,000,000 to get 1pps and feed this into the U3S, in the normal way. 

You could generate a 27MHz signal externally and then feed this into the Si5351A pin 2. 

If you want, you could generate 25MHz and feed that in - it is
still within spec of the Si5351A; the disadvantage of 25MHz is only
that the algortihms for exact WSPR tone spacing don't work on 2m
band with a 25MHz crystal (all lower bands below 2m are fine). 

You could get the 10MHz, make it into a square wave, take the 5th
harmonic, filter it, divide it by 2,... and end up with 25MHz. 

Other ways I can think of too... which is best, who knows...

73 Hans G0UPL
http://qrp-labs.com_._,_._,_



--

2E0ILY
Best regards,
Chris mailto:chris@chriswilson.tv
--
Best regards, Chris Wilson (2E0ILY)


Re: VFO encoder clicks #qcx

MVS Sarma
 

Perhaps one could use TCXO with PLL GPO lock for the reference crystal and try the possibility as external clock for si5351.
 Then the input clock becomes disciplined.
regards
sarma
 vu3zmv

Regards
MVS Sarma
 

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Hans Summers <hans.summers@...> wrote:
Hi Chris
 
Talking  of the Si family of synthesisers is it feasible to modify a U3S to lock
the synthesiser to a GPS 10MHz frequency standard?    Thanks.

Feasible, yes. There are several ways of doing it. You could divide the 10MHz by 10,000,000 to get 1pps and feed this into the U3S, in the normal way. 

You could generate a 27MHz signal externally and then feed this into the Si5351A pin 2. 

If you want, you could generate 25MHz and feed that in - it is still within spec of the Si5351A; the disadvantage of 25MHz is only that the algortihms for exact WSPR tone spacing don't work on 2m band with a 25MHz crystal (all lower bands below 2m are fine). 

You could get the 10MHz, make it into a square wave, take the 5th harmonic, filter it, divide it by 2,... and end up with 25MHz. 

Other ways I can think of too... which is best, who knows...

73 Hans G0UPL



Re: QLG1 not seeing Sats

Peter LB0K
 

Interesting case Howard.

 

A testmeter (VOM) can be a useful tool for looking for activity on serial data lines, esp. at TTL voltage levels. These will be in the area of 0V to 5V when at rest, somewhere in between with data strings present.

Watching for a 1PPS pulse out of any type of GPS module or receiver with a testmeter is likely to be a fruitless task.

 

A 1PPS comes along every second but it will only be in the order of 1microsecond wide, or maybe less, say 100nSec. Or even 10nSec I had in one case from a prof receiver.
The 1PPS is too short to register when monitoring with a testmeter.  So we must monitor for the effects of a 1PPS to find out whether it is there.  Or use a scope that copes with very fast rise and fall times.

 

I haven’t connected up my QLG1 yet so I can’t comment directly but your report of the data decoded in menu 8:13 - V-- f-- t- s-   - would indicate the QCX is not receiving any numeric data from the QLG1.

The GLG1 has powered up and started to work but there are no numeric data generated, hence the empty strings with just the header characters.

The most common cause for this in my experience has been a lack of GPS signals to the receiver.

And my most memorable instance of this symptom was when a pelican roosted on the (prof) antenna!!!!!!!!!

 

In your case Howard I suggest you could look over the antenna connections again, there might just be a dry joint somewhere there.

Maybe if you connect in a link from your other Garmin(?) receiver with that set up for the same data output strings, just to prove the QCX is OK.

 

In the very worst cases the antenna is not working or the QLG1 is not working properly. Or the signals are not getting through.

 

I’ll be putting my QLG1 together later today and will try and will check for your symptoms.

 

 

Peter – LB0K

 

From: QRPLabs@groups.io [mailto:QRPLabs@groups.io] On Behalf Of Howard K6IA
Sent: 16 February 2018 05:48
To: QRPLabs@groups.io
Subject: Re: [QRPLabs] QLG1 not seeing Sats

 

Hi Alan,

I'll do some more testing tomorrow with the scope. 

Here's what I see on the QCX with the QLG1 connected:

8.13 GPS data
V-- f-- t- s-

No sorry I don't have anything to read TTL serial data.

73
Howard K6IA


Re: VFO encoder clicks #qcx

Hans Summers
 

Hi Chris
 
Talking  of the Si family of synthesisers is it feasible to modify a U3S to lock
the synthesiser to a GPS 10MHz frequency standard?    Thanks.

Feasible, yes. There are several ways of doing it. You could divide the 10MHz by 10,000,000 to get 1pps and feed this into the U3S, in the normal way. 

You could generate a 27MHz signal externally and then feed this into the Si5351A pin 2. 

If you want, you could generate 25MHz and feed that in - it is still within spec of the Si5351A; the disadvantage of 25MHz is only that the algortihms for exact WSPR tone spacing don't work on 2m band with a 25MHz crystal (all lower bands below 2m are fine). 

You could get the 10MHz, make it into a square wave, take the 5th harmonic, filter it, divide it by 2,... and end up with 25MHz. 

Other ways I can think of too... which is best, who knows...

73 Hans G0UPL


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Alan Richmond
 

As I posted earlier, read your messages before you send them. Like your school-teacher told you.

Best regards

Alan


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Alan G4ZFQ
 

Han's voltage table T1 pins 5, 6, 7 & 8 2.36 volts
your check T1 pins 5,6,7,8  all 0.30
Assembly Manual Section 5.5 explains circuit.
R1 & R2 are both 10K Ohms configured as as a voltage divider.
You have approx 5v on the top end of R2?
There SHOULD be approx half voltage junction R1 & R2
0 Ohm continuity from the other end of R1 to 0V rail connection
how does the voltage divider check out?
next possibles, T1 secondary winding continuity 1 & 2 or IC4 internal s/c pin 7/9 to 0V (unlikely)?
Alan,

The T1 connections are switched to the IC5 inputs, IC5A inputs are low. IC5B are nearer the expected.
Do you think a shorted C43 or C44 might cause this?

73 Alan G4ZFQ


I measured voltages using the internal DVM.  I did not measure the LCD because it works fine.   Many of these are way off - I hope a better tech than me sees a pattern here!  Sorry for the long post.
Here they are:
+ supply terminal   12.12
Clk0 test pin  1.70
Clk1 test pin  1.70    both approximate
Left side C2  3.46
Right side D2  5.02
T1 pins 1,2,3,4   all zero
T1 pins 5,6,7,8  all 0.30
Top side of C43  0.26
Top side of C44  0.24
                  C45  0.41
                  C46  0.51
IC5 pin 1  11.00
            2   0.35
             3  0.33
            4   0
            5  0.51
            6  0.51
            7  4.00
            8  11.79
IC6 pin 1  4.00
            2  4.01
            3  3.29
            4  0
            5  4.15
            6  4.00
            7  4.00
            8  11.79
IC7 pin 1  10.19
            2   9.70
            3  8.19
            4  0
            5  7.89
            6  9.80
            7  10.86
            8  11.79
IC8 pin 1  7.36
             2 7.36
             3  0.87
             4  0
             5  1.20
             6  7.38
             7  7.35
             8  11.79
IC9 pin 1  4.86
            2  4.86
            3  0.65
            4  0
            5  1.10
            6  7.34
            7  7.34
            8  11.89
IC10 pin 1  5.92
               2 5.92
               3  5.92
               4  0
               5  4.27
               6  3.86
               7  5.77
               8  11.47


Re: QLG1 not seeing Sats

Howard K6IA
 

Hi Alan,

I'll do some more testing tomorrow with the scope. 

Here's what I see on the QCX with the QLG1 connected:

8.13 GPS data
V-- f-- t- s-

No sorry I don't have anything to read TTL serial data.

73
Howard K6IA


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Glen Leinweber
 

Bill,
Have reviewed this thread and realized we could learn more about the unwanted audio tone
just by you listening to its quality. Can you answer these questions:

  • What frequency (lower than sidetone, higher)?
  • Is its frequency stable when you make changes to volume, or when you add the sidetone?
  • Is it a "pure" tone, rather than raspy?
  • If you change to different earphones, does the tone change in any way?

Hans has said that he's seen an oscillation caused by pots riding at one end.
At 200 kHz ! You certainly can't hear this, but it apparently caused an audible tone in
the audio chain. This kind might be hard to track down without a 'scope.

Now that you can kill the tone by running at low volume, the DC voltage checks should be
done, especially in the audio chain of op-amps - any deviations from those voltages listed
in the manual could help a great deal to narrow the problem area. Can you beg or borrow
a multimeter and let us know if these DC voltages check out?
Glen VE3DNL


Re: 40M QCX problem uponpower up

Alan de G1FXB
 

Hi nz0tham,

Han's voltage table T1 pins 5, 6, 7 & 8 2.36 volts
your check T1 pins 5,6,7,8  all 0.30

Assembly Manual Section 5.5 explains circuit.

R1 & R2 are both 10K Ohms configured as as a voltage divider.
You have approx 5v on the top end of R2?
There SHOULD be approx half voltage junction R1 & R2
0 Ohm continuity from the other end of R1 to 0V rail connection

how does the voltage divider check out?

next possibles, T1 secondary winding continuity 1 & 2 or IC4 internal s/c pin 7/9 to 0V (unlikely)?



Alan


On 16/02/2018 00:49, nz0tham@... wrote:
I measured voltages using the internal DVM.  I did not measure the LCD because it works fine.   Many of these are way off - I hope a better tech than me sees a pattern here!  Sorry for the long post.
Here they are:
+ supply terminal   12.12
Clk0 test pin  1.70
Clk1 test pin  1.70    both approximate 
Left side C2  3.46
Right side D2  5.02
T1 pins 1,2,3,4   all zero
T1 pins 5,6,7,8  all 0.30
Top side of C43  0.26
Top side of C44  0.24
                  C45  0.41
                  C46  0.51
IC5 pin 1  11.00
            2   0.35
             3  0.33
            4   0
            5  0.51
            6  0.51
            7  4.00
            8  11.79
IC6 pin 1  4.00
            2  4.01
            3  3.29
            4  0
            5  4.15
            6  4.00
            7  4.00
            8  11.79
IC7 pin 1  10.19
            2   9.70
            3  8.19
            4  0
            5  7.89
            6  9.80
            7  10.86
            8  11.79
IC8 pin 1  7.36
             2 7.36
             3  0.87
             4  0
             5  1.20
             6  7.38
             7  7.35
             8  11.79
IC9 pin 1  4.86
            2  4.86
            3  0.65
            4  0
            5  1.10
            6  7.34
            7  7.34
            8  11.89
IC10 pin 1  5.92
               2 5.92
               3  5.92
               4  0
               5  4.27
               6  3.86
               7  5.77
               8  11.47


Re: QLG1 not seeing Sats

Alan de G1FXB
 

Hi Howard / Ron,

Howard,
As the module has more than a fair opportunity to get lock by now....


Ignoring the No Green LED flashing,
and Just to rewind to earlier posts, one worry.


I see the changing voltages at TXD but nothing at the PPS output pins on the board.
I've done continuity checks from the PPS output pin back to IC1 (pin 3) , from the RF Module RF in ( pin 11) to ANT, also from RF Module PPS (pin 3) to IC1 (pin 1-2) all check good

Green LED tests good
Not sure what you mean by a "pulse"
With the scope on pin 1,2 and 3   I see a trigger flash on the scope but no voltage shows on the trace like  AND gate 9,10 (2.9V)   and 8 (5V)


Is this "trigger flash" regular & around 3v Or are you saying it's a random artefact triggering the scope?

PPS is a short duration 100mSec pulse
TXD is serial NMEA data, longer duration and 'easier' to see on a scope, or higher displayed voltage on a DVM.


Your QCX shows no indication at all, on the GPS menu ?
Previous from other owners but not known if 100% correct
https://groups.io/g/QRPLabs/topic/6011907#16112
https://groups.io/g/QRPLabs/message/20990


OTHER QCX & QLG OWNERS CAN CHIP IN.
With their findings of what's correct and not any other tips.
 
It would be REALLY useful shortcut to see if the NMEA string is all zero's or if it has parsed anything useful,
one way or another on a second known working device
It's going to upset the test equipment police....
Do you have anything to read TTL serial data?
do you have a $3 TTL / USB interface and windows terminal program.
Don't use Windows
Then a 'spare 'ardunio and a GPS sketch?

The reasoning behind why I previously suggested temporarily removing the cell....

   There is a circuit / data sheet discrepancy raised before.

(R8 & R9 look to be series charging current limiting resistors to the cell, R9 discharge limiting
Vbatt is only present on the full 6 way header pads, not on the 4 way that Hans describes as for U3 & later kits
that most will use as it removes the builder doubt of GPS TXD to connect to for instance U3's RXD)

I cannot find any instruction in the assembly manual to make a connection to apply external power to Vbatt header,
so charging voltage for the cell must come FROM the module?
(Somebody has observed a pulsing voltage on this pin on a previous thread.)

(If so, what is the purpose of R8 if it is in series to an unused pad?
It's not how other data sheets show it's use.
(Han's doesn't normally give us extras.   ))

    However the GPS kit has been on sale for long enough to know if the circuit simply didn't work by now.
The view in the past was to ignore the discrepancy as the Li cell will only back up the Sat data for a short period of time, and doing a cold start was not a great disadvantage.

(Ron, The image in the assembly manual of the cell, illustrates that the positive of the cell is the one with the 'L' shaped tab.)

Assuming the charging volts is supposed to be coming from the module, I suggested to temporary remove the cell so it didn't load the Vbatt pin of the module just in case....


Alan

On 15/02/2018 20:04, Ron Carr wrote:
In looking at the spec for the YIC module, about the only thing that would make it not work would be low voltage on Vbat.  You could measure that on the 6 pin header.  The spec says at least 2 volts.

When I built my kit, I found the polarity of the battery difficult to figure and had to use my meter to to find which connection was positive.  If your battery were in backwards, that would reduce the voltage on the Vbat pin.

Ron K1URC


Re: QCX 20 #1935 oscillation when turned on.

Jess Gypin <ontarget1911@...>
 

Gotcha

On Feb 15, 2018, at 6:44 PM, dave dabay <kd3pc@...> wrote:


Not a resistor, a POT...


On 2/15/2018 7:35 PM, Jess Gypin wrote:
You can’t “reverse” a resistor. I haven’t looked in the manual but you bet I will now!

Jess AE0CW

On Feb 15, 2018, at 6:32 PM, Glen Sr <ghazen1@...> wrote:

Group. When I assembled this unit I installed R17 backwards. My thought was what would it matter! I forgot this until I started following Hans trouble shooting guide. And it was there in RED in the assembly instructions!!! My question is could this be causing this stage to oscillate and why?  R24 is also 20k if that matters. I want to be sure before I try to reverse R17 as I could damage the board. Thanks again for all who are trying to help. Glen n8we

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