Topics

RPO Project - Photograph Reference


Ted Andrews
 

Greetings Everyone,

I took well over 50 digital photographs of Penn Central 6523, a former PRR BM70nb a few years ago. It was at the Indiana Railroad Museum in Noblesville, Indiana. What makes this car interesting is the it ending its service during Penn Central. The interior was untouched and likely looked as it did during the Pennsy years. A time capsule. I purposely took these pictures of details for modeling purposes. I want to share them with this group. 

Where should I post these pictures? Is there a directory or folder that I should place them in? Attached are a sample of the pics I took.

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana


Bruce Smith
 

Ted, Folks,

Great photos!  There is indeed a folder, in the photos section of the web site, entitled "Mail Cars" where photos related to this project can be placed. Note that in groups.io, the attached photos also end up in the "Emailed Photos" album, although I try to clean that out with some regualrity.

Regards,
Bruce



From: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io> on behalf of Ted Andrews <ted_andrews@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 11:10 PM
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Subject: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference
 
Greetings Everyone,

I took well over 50 digital photographs of Penn Central 6523, a former PRR BM70nb a few years ago. It was at the Indiana Railroad Museum in Noblesville, Indiana. What makes this car interesting is the it ending its service during Penn Central. The interior was untouched and likely looked as it did during the Pennsy years. A time capsule. I purposely took these pictures of details for modeling purposes. I want to share them with this group. 

Where should I post these pictures? Is there a directory or folder that I should place them in? Attached are a sample of the pics I took.

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana


Pat McKinney
 

Ted,
         I may get some back lash on this. The 6523 does show as being rebuilt in the middle of 1951 to a BM70nb according to the 1993 Keystone article. Although it has the 4 wheel trucks and the one view of the exterior matches the four windows for that side, the exterior body was not changed. Did not receive the new smaller stainless steel window frames, did not receive the longer round cornered windows in any of the baggage doors. The interior seems to have received the lower ceiling but can't tell if any changes were made on the bathroom end. I have seen this car before and thought it was incorrectly labeled as BM70nb and was actually a BM70m. Apparently this car did not receiver the full exterior body changes during the program. 


Pat McKinney

-----Original Message-----
From: Ted Andrews <ted_andrews@...>
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2021 12:10 am
Subject: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference

Greetings Everyone,

I took well over 50 digital photographs of Penn Central 6523, a former PRR BM70nb a few years ago. It was at the Indiana Railroad Museum in Noblesville, Indiana. What makes this car interesting is the it ending its service during Penn Central. The interior was untouched and likely looked as it did during the Pennsy years. A time capsule. I purposely took these pictures of details for modeling purposes. I want to share them with this group. 

Where should I post these pictures? Is there a directory or folder that I should place them in? Attached are a sample of the pics I took.

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana


Dave's Gmail
 

Thanks for the pictures, Ted! They will be helpful for designing my interior.
Dave

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 12:10 AM Ted Andrews <ted_andrews@msn.com> wrote:

Greetings Everyone,

I took well over 50 digital photographs of Penn Central 6523, a former PRR BM70nb a few years ago. It was at the Indiana Railroad Museum in Noblesville, Indiana. What makes this car interesting is the it ending its service during Penn Central. The interior was untouched and likely looked as it did during the Pennsy years. A time capsule. I purposely took these pictures of details for modeling purposes. I want to share them with this group.

Where should I post these pictures? Is there a directory or folder that I should place them in? Attached are a sample of the pics I took.

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana
--
David C. Wilson
nanos gigantum humeris insidentes
PRRT&HS 9088 (H6sb)


Chuck Heuer
 

Ted, yes thanks very much for those photos!

I would also note, crossing projects here a little, that that untouched green paint is likely as good as it gets for the PRR’s “P.O. Green” of cabin car interiors post c.1953.

The Post Office department only specified interior colors for RPO apartments in general terms “Color subject to the approval the Director, Railway Transportation”. Otherwise left up the discretion of each RR, which likely is a factor in the variation seen in preserved/restored RPO interiors of various roads In the 1956 issue of the POD specs this color was specified  In the 1956 edition of the POD specs the interior below the ceiling area was to be “Semi-Gloss Green”. I have not found a documentary date reference from when that color became green (from “Cream” in 1938) but there is considerable anecdotal testimony from clerks who worked in the cars that they were green by the later 1940s. It is my speculation that this scheme may have been prototyped in 1946 by the POD and PRR in the Hannegan - which prototyped many features added into the specifications after that point and noted especially in RPOs built or rebuilt after that date (the BM70nb and BM85 particularly on the PRR).


Chuck Heuer
 
Edited

I am inclinded to agree with Pat on the class identification. There were at least 3 other cars with a similar appearance on this same side late in life, 2 appear in the PRR Color Guide vol 1 on pp 6 and 7, #6555 and #6580, both of which the roster says were BM70M until the end.  #6585 appears on p 34 of the "Baggage and Mail Cars" book. The missing window suggests these cars got the lengthened letter cases on this side but they do not seem to have undergone the kind of major rebuilding that would typically accompany a class change. The roster seems is confusing here, it says #6523 was applied to the former M70b #7270 when it became a BM70nb. All the other BM70nb also were derived from M70b. This photo certainly does not look like a re-worked M70b, even one "with baggage". I don't know what the disconnect is here, but there certainly seems to be one. Maybe PC did some renumbering? Venturing dangerously over the merger cliff edge, I am not aware of what may be known in terms of PC rosters.

Chuck Heuer


Ted Andrews
 

Bruce and fellow RPO modelers:

I placed my photos in "Mail Cars" folder as directed (below).  Here is a little history of this car. It was at the Indiana Railroad Museum in Noblesville, Indiana. About 10 years ago, the museum opened the car's doors for viewing. I noted that this was a Penn Central unit and mail service likely halted during the PC time. The interior looked untouched and unaltered; it was like a time capsule. As if the USPS/RPO staff had just left with their sacks of mail. The interior would likely be identical to what it did during its Pennsy days. In particular, look at the baggage end. It was painted silver and I had never seen the door mechanisms from the inside. I took pictures of the desks, floor and wall hooks, letter holes and bins, ceiling, lights as well as heater banisters. It seemed to have everything intact.

I took these pictures for modeling reference. But since I have gotten around to modeling them yet, it would be great to share with you in this group as you are building yours. 🙂

Enjoy!

Ted Andrews


From: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 7:58 AM
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference
 
Ted, Folks,

Great photos!  There is indeed a folder, in the photos section of the web site, entitled "Mail Cars" where photos related to this project can be placed. Note that in groups.io, the attached photos also end up in the "Emailed Photos" album, although I try to clean that out with some regualrity.

Regards,
Bruce



From: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io> on behalf of Ted Andrews <ted_andrews@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 11:10 PM
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Subject: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference
 
Greetings Everyone,

I took well over 50 digital photographs of Penn Central 6523, a former PRR BM70nb a few years ago. It was at the Indiana Railroad Museum in Noblesville, Indiana. What makes this car interesting is the it ending its service during Penn Central. The interior was untouched and likely looked as it did during the Pennsy years. A time capsule. I purposely took these pictures of details for modeling purposes. I want to share them with this group. 

Where should I post these pictures? Is there a directory or folder that I should place them in? Attached are a sample of the pics I took.

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana


Ted Andrews
 

Bruce, 

If you want to make a folder just for PC 6523, please do so. I think the "Mail Cars" folder you set up was for the group member to post pics of their models. So my pics of 6523 could accidently hide the pics of the models.

Ted


From: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 7:58 AM
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference
 
Ted, Folks,

Great photos!  There is indeed a folder, in the photos section of the web site, entitled "Mail Cars" where photos related to this project can be placed. Note that in groups.io, the attached photos also end up in the "Emailed Photos" album, although I try to clean that out with some regualrity.

Regards,
Bruce



From: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io> on behalf of Ted Andrews <ted_andrews@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 11:10 PM
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Subject: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference
 
Greetings Everyone,

I took well over 50 digital photographs of Penn Central 6523, a former PRR BM70nb a few years ago. It was at the Indiana Railroad Museum in Noblesville, Indiana. What makes this car interesting is the it ending its service during Penn Central. The interior was untouched and likely looked as it did during the Pennsy years. A time capsule. I purposely took these pictures of details for modeling purposes. I want to share them with this group. 

Where should I post these pictures? Is there a directory or folder that I should place them in? Attached are a sample of the pics I took.

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana


Bruce Smith
 

Ted,

It's for prototype and models, so feel free to post there.

Regards,
Bruce



From: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io> on behalf of Ted Andrews <ted_andrews@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 4:13 PM
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference
 
Bruce, 

If you want to make a folder just for PC 6523, please do so. I think the "Mail Cars" folder you set up was for the group member to post pics of their models. So my pics of 6523 could accidently hide the pics of the models.

Ted


From: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io> on behalf of Bruce Smith <smithbf@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 7:58 AM
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference
 
Ted, Folks,

Great photos!  There is indeed a folder, in the photos section of the web site, entitled "Mail Cars" where photos related to this project can be placed. Note that in groups.io, the attached photos also end up in the "Emailed Photos" album, although I try to clean that out with some regualrity.

Regards,
Bruce



From: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io> on behalf of Ted Andrews <ted_andrews@...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 16, 2021 11:10 PM
To: PRRPro@groups.io <PRRPro@groups.io>
Subject: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference
 
Greetings Everyone,

I took well over 50 digital photographs of Penn Central 6523, a former PRR BM70nb a few years ago. It was at the Indiana Railroad Museum in Noblesville, Indiana. What makes this car interesting is the it ending its service during Penn Central. The interior was untouched and likely looked as it did during the Pennsy years. A time capsule. I purposely took these pictures of details for modeling purposes. I want to share them with this group. 

Where should I post these pictures? Is there a directory or folder that I should place them in? Attached are a sample of the pics I took.

Ted Andrews
Carmel, Indiana


Chuck Heuer
 

Ted, thank you for adding your whole collection on #6523 to the project!

The more I look at this car, 6523, including Ted's additional pix, the more convinced I am that it is neither fish nor fowl. The car data plaque Ted photgraphed clearly shows someone decided it qualified to be called a BM70nb. I can only guess the change of trucks to the 2E-P5 was enough to qualify. I have been comparing Ted's pictures with some of those of the restored #6563 at the Danbury (CT) museum, a car I have visited some years ago. Some of the pix available online, including interiors, are to be found are here . This B70M also has 4 windows on the right side, 6 on the left. Unfortunately, Ted's pictures don't seem definitive on the left side of 6523 as to the window count although it may be 5, which would be consistent with an NB, and there are no exterior pictures of that side. 6523 does have some of the interior amenity improvements typical for the NB cars, including the enclosed toilet.

The museum display information sheet Ted photographed, posted at the car, says it was converted to an NB in 1954. The Keystone roster says 1951. The Keystone roster also tells us that the original #6523, an M70, became BM70M #5466 in 1937. The number 6523 was then unused until M70b #7270 received it in 1951 at the same it was converted to an NB. Was this conversion in 1951 as per the roster or 1954 as the museum history tells it? Where does this discrepancy come from.

Chuck Heuer


wmiller263@...
 

The car is a BM70m. Originally blt. 1910 as an M70. Rblt. 1937? to BM70m. Later it was reclassified to BM70nb. What constitutes a reclassification, other than the obvious truck change, is beyond me. This car doesn't exhibit the rounded corner rectangular shaped windows, in the doors, or the shorter windows, in the car body, both prominent features, of the Broadway (b) cars. Has anyone ever done a forensic deep dive, on Pennsy's classification, and reclassification system, concerning these cars? I have several BCW, BM70?, Walthers BM70m, and my favorites, the Rivarossi 72 ft. RPO's, which match the 1950 to 1953 BM70nb rebuilds kinda close, with aforementioned rounded, rectangular windows etc.... I can't decide where or what to start first. I model near the end of PRR, 1966 to you know when. Thanks for any help you can provide. Bill


Chuck Heuer
 

I found an exterior view of the left side from 2007 in Indiana at: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=858236 .
I shows only 5 windows on this side, also that the ventilation provisions on the roof were changed. Hard to tell if the window spacing was widened, or the mail doors, without being able measure and then compare with the car in CT.

This car was sold at auction in September 2019 by the City of Nobelsville as abandoned property. I have not so far turned up any information as to whether it was bought to be saved (hopefully) or otherwise.

Chuck Heuer


Pat McKinney
 

Chuck,
             The window pattern matches the BM70nb but retaining M70b/ BM70m window style. It also appears to have received the BM70nb style roof ventilators. Like you mentioned, we don't know if the baggage and mail doors were widened or not since they still have the round windows.

Pat McKinney

 


-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Heuer <hiker120@...>
To: PRRPro@groups.io
Sent: Thu, Feb 18, 2021 7:31 am
Subject: Re: [PRRPro] RPO Project - Photograph Reference

I found an exterior view of the left side from 2007 in Indiana at: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=858236 .
I shows only 5 windows on this side, also that the ventilation provisions on the roof were changed. Hard to tell if the window spacing was widened, or the mail doors, without being able measure and then compare with the car in CT.

This car was sold at auction in September 2019 by the City of Nobelsville as abandoned property. I have not so far turned up any information as to whether it was bought to be saved (hopefully) or otherwise.

Chuck Heuer


Rich C
 

Great photos, Ted. They will be a great help.

Rich Christie