Road Number for Juniata built I1


Paul Alphonse
 

Hi all,

Couldn't decide to post this in the regular group or here since this was a pro project at one point but I am aiming for project-like accuracy.  I will be detailing and painting a pair of brass Juniata built I1sa's soon and was hoping someone might be able to help me identify a road number for one of them.  See photo attached.  One is a single-compressor with a 8 axle welded 210F75a tender without Trainphone.  (I believe this is the 210F75a tender, a hair smaller than the 82a, single cistern hatch and a single man doghouse.)  This matches road number 1753 pictured in 1955 and is close enough to the era I like modeling.  A couple photos of this locomotive in this arrangement exist so I'm happy numbering it. 

The other is a dual compressor version with an equipment box close to the engineer side steam pipe.  This model came with again a 210F75a tender with the Trainphone antenna array but I'm not able to find photographic evidence this combination existed.  Anyone able to produce any photos of such or should I consider sourcing a new tender for this locomotive?  A 210F82a shown in my photo, but this has already dedicated to an early Key Baldwin built locomotive I've been struggling to get running.

Interesting side note I'm also not sure about...the 210F75a tender that came without the Trainphone antenna array has the transmitters on the model.  Was this something that existed or a mistake in the production of the model that's more accurately removed?



Appreciate the help,

Paul Alphonse


prrk4sa612
 

Paul,

The Juniata built I1s/I1sa with double air pumps seems to be uncommon (or was rarely photographed).

I am attaching a file I did awhile ago (and just updated with tender details) of photographs of these found online. There are only three images from the 1950s and all except one is coupled to a 90F82 tender.

The tender without the Trainphone should have the receiver coils removed as well.

You can identify the Juniata built engines with two pumps from a left side view, as the air tank which was removed when the second pump was added was transferred under the running board on the left side, between the second and main driving wheels. Key didn't include this air tank on the 1986 run, but did put it on their 1988 factory painted model numbered 3720 (which came with a 90F82 tender). The tank was 23-3/4 in. diameter x 4 ft. 6 in. long is available in kit form from Precision Scale - No. 31042.

On the Baldwin built engines with feedwater heaters, when the second pump was fitted this air tank was placed under the cab on the engineman's side, as there wasn't any injector in that location.

Bob Hess


On 4/24/2021 1:30 PM, Paul Alphonse wrote:
Hi all,

Couldn't decide to post this in the regular group or here since this was a pro project at one point but I am aiming for project-like accuracy.  I will be detailing and painting a pair of brass Juniata built I1sa's soon and was hoping someone might be able to help me identify a road number for one of them.  See photo attached.  One is a single-compressor with a 8 axle welded 210F75a tender without Trainphone.  (I believe this is the 210F75a tender, a hair smaller than the 82a, single cistern hatch and a single man doghouse.)  This matches road number 1753 pictured in 1955 and is close enough to the era I like modeling.  A couple photos of this locomotive in this arrangement exist so I'm happy numbering it. 

The other is a dual compressor version with an equipment box close to the engineer side steam pipe.  This model came with again a 210F75a tender with the Trainphone antenna array but I'm not able to find photographic evidence this combination existed.  Anyone able to produce any photos of such or should I consider sourcing a new tender for this locomotive?  A 210F82a shown in my photo, but this has already dedicated to an early Key Baldwin built locomotive I've been struggling to get running.

Interesting side note I'm also not sure about...the 210F75a tender that came without the Trainphone antenna array has the transmitters on the model.  Was this something that existed or a mistake in the production of the model that's more accurately removed?



Appreciate the help,

Paul Alphonse



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pennsylvania1954
 

Hi Paul--A word on tender classes. There were two welded, 8-wheel truck, classes each for the I1/I1sa and M1/M1a/b. All had the same exterior dimensions.

The I1/I1sa classes were 210F82a and 210F82b.

The M1/M1a/b classes were 210F75a and 210F75b. 
 
The 82 and 75 refer to the deck height. The front deck on the tender had to match the cab deck on the engines. 

Now the a and b, which designate whether the stoker motor is installed on the locomotive, under the cab below the fireman, or in the tender. For the I1/I1sa, the 210F82a indicated that the tender was equipped with the stoker motor, leaving the space below the fireman empty on any attached engine. The 210F82b class was used with I1/I1sa engines equipped with the stoker motor under the cab. Since we can just barely see the end of the stoker motors under the cabs of your two engines, their tenders would both be 210F82b. 

The situation for the M1/M1a/b was just the opposite. Class 210F75a was used with Mountains which had the stoker motor on the engine, while 210F75b was equipped with a stoker motor on the tender.

Note that the style of doghouse had nothing to do with class. Since Bob mentioned your "extra" trainphone receiver coils, I will call attention to the water hatch on the tender at the bottom of your photo. Addition of the trainphone antenna interfered with watering tenders so two hatches were installed, as on your painted model. That isn't to say that a tender with trainphone with a single water hatch definitely did not exist, but I find it to be unlikely.

The variation in deck height and location of the stoker motor resulted in small differences in water (and coal) capacity, but they all rounded up to 21000 to maintain the "210" for the class.

Form 109 is the PRR designating document, available in PDF format from various years here:

http://jbritton.pennsyrr.com/index.php/tpm/keystone-crossings-file-archive/category/12-form-109-classification-and-description-of-locomotives-and-tenders 

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


Paul Alphonse
 

Bob, Steve, great responses, very helpful, much appreciated.  Looks like I get to put some practice in with the new resistance soldering station.    Bob it looks like your list is missing 3720 in it then, just a heads up.  Interestingly enough, the Key model with dual compressors also has three sanding pipes as well which per your sheet narrows it down to 1634.

Steve, unfortunately those links no longer work.  I miss-understood what the last two digits in the tender designation stood for, but this makes much more sense.  The housing behind the slope sheet on a stoker equipped tender is for the stoker motor then correct?  Does that mean with these I1's supposedly requiring "B" tenders that that housing shouldn't be there either? 

If anyone has a spare 90F82 lying around I would be interested in buying.


pennsylvania1954
 

Hi Paul--The housing behind the slope sheet is the coal pusher, required on the big tenders to push coal forward so it would fall into the bottom of the tender's coal bunker where it was carried forward to the locomotive by the stoker screw or auger. Tenders with stoker engines (I have learned that "stoker engine" is more correct than "stoker motor") have the engine located more or less over the front truck and at a height to conveniently engage the stoker screw at the bottom of the coal bunker. Steam for the stoker engine would be piped back from the locomotive boiler. Although it is usually difficult to see in photos, there would be an access door on the side of the tender.
--
Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL


prrk4sa612
 

Paul,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              As you suggested, I have added 3720 to my file - copy attached.

I'm not suggesting that Key selected an incorrect number to apply to this version - but I would still like to see a prototype photo to confirm. Just checked again and I don't have one.

Bob Hess

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 On 4/25/2021 1:30 PM, Paul Alphonse wrote:
Bob, Steve, great responses, very helpful, much appreciated.  Looks like I get to put some practice in with the new resistance soldering station.    Bob it looks like your list is missing 3720 in it then, just a heads up.  Interestingly enough, the Key model with dual compressors also has three sanding pipes as well which per your sheet narrows it down to 1634.

Steve, unfortunately those links no longer work.  I miss-understood what the last two digits in the tender designation stood for, but this makes much more sense.  The housing behind the slope sheet on a stoker equipped tender is for the stoker motor then correct?  Does that mean with these I1's supposedly requiring "B" tenders that that housing shouldn't be there either? 

If anyone has a spare 90F82 lying around I would be interested in buying.



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Paul Alphonse
 

Steve, Bob, and Bruce (in another thread) again thank you for the replies.  Appreciate the clarifications and copies of the forms.  Work has been a challenge as of late so I haven't sorted through everything yet.  I recently picked up what should be my last I1, this one being a 90's Key Baldwin build 4293 with the 210F82 three-man dog-house. Paint is too tattered for my standards so it's getting stripped...can probably be mixed and matched with what I have on hand to fit more common figurations better...but I must admit I don't think I'm going to be THAT much of a stickler.  Still think I'll source a 90F82 tender.  The lovely thing about brass is if I find I don't like the level of accuracy latter on a quick dunk in lacquer thinner and a few hours of work fixes that.

Again, much appreciated, this gives me a good leap on planning out these three locomotives.