Topics

AD9850 module pc board

Jim Pruitt
 

Hello Nick.

I will see if I can get some activity started then.

I see a lot of projects that use the AD9850 and AD9851 but they all seem to use the module that was so cheap from China 6 years ago but is now up around $25 each and of questionable quality.

It has long since annoyed me that designers use the module (either the AD9850 or a Arduino Nano, etc) when just the chip will do. This is true for the Si5351 as well as the AD985x and Arduino. Often the only thing actually needed for the circuit is the DDS or PLL chip or cpu and the other things on the modules are superfluous.  The reason it annoys me is because I have a stack of AD9850 and AD9851 and AD9854 dds chips and I bought 25 of the Si5351 chips from Digikey a few months ago but I have not found pc boards to accept them and have no desire to spend $25+ for a AD9851 module that may be nothing more than a floor sweeping AD9850.

Does anyone know of gerbers for a AD985x module or a Si5351 module so I can make my own modules since already have the main chip.  I only know of one person that had gerbers for one of the modules. Does anyone know of others?  I do wish designers would put the module circuit on the pc board.  They could still add the pins/sockets for the modules and accommodate both worlds without increasing board real estate.

Is there any discussion on the subject?

Thank you.

Jim Pruitt
WA7DUY

William Heller
 

I have to agree the main reason the choice is the apparent cost savings you
can buy the complete board from china for less than the chip alone from a
reliable vendor here in the states. I am a retired embedded prorocessor
engineer and still have access to my design tools if you are interested we
could work together to do the required design work to make boards.

On Wed, May 13, 2020, 11:44 PM Jim Pruitt <jpruitt67@...> wrote:

Hello Nick.

I will see if I can get some activity started then.

I see a lot of projects that use the AD9850 and AD9851 but they all seem
to use the module that was so cheap from China 6 years ago but is now up
around $25 each and of questionable quality.

It has long since annoyed me that designers use the module (either the
AD9850 or a Arduino Nano, etc) when just the chip will do. This is true
for the Si5351 as well as the AD985x and Arduino. Often the only thing
actually needed for the circuit is the DDS or PLL chip or cpu and the
other things on the modules are superfluous. The reason it annoys me is
because I have a stack of AD9850 and AD9851 and AD9854 dds chips and I
bought 25 of the Si5351 chips from Digikey a few months ago but I have
not found pc boards to accept them and have no desire to spend $25+ for
a AD9851 module that may be nothing more than a floor sweeping AD9850.

Does anyone know of gerbers for a AD985x module or a Si5351 module so I
can make my own modules since already have the main chip. I only know
of one person that had gerbers for one of the modules. Does anyone know
of others? I do wish designers would put the module circuit on the pc
board. They could still add the pins/sockets for the modules and
accommodate both worlds without increasing board real estate.

Is there any discussion on the subject?

Thank you.

Jim Pruitt
WA7DUY




Clifford Heath
 

Why don't you design a PCB yourself? If you can solder these devices happily, I'm sure that Kicad is not beyond you.
Put the AVR on the same board to avoid the need for an Arduino, while you're at it.

Clifford Heath.

On 14 May 2020, at 3:44 pm, Jim Pruitt <jpruitt67@...> wrote:

Hello Nick.

I will see if I can get some activity started then.

I see a lot of projects that use the AD9850 and AD9851 but they all seem to use the module that was so cheap from China 6 years ago but is now up around $25 each and of questionable quality.

It has long since annoyed me that designers use the module (either the AD9850 or a Arduino Nano, etc) when just the chip will do. This is true for the Si5351 as well as the AD985x and Arduino. Often the only thing actually needed for the circuit is the DDS or PLL chip or cpu and the other things on the modules are superfluous. The reason it annoys me is because I have a stack of AD9850 and AD9851 and AD9854 dds chips and I bought 25 of the Si5351 chips from Digikey a few months ago but I have not found pc boards to accept them and have no desire to spend $25+ for a AD9851 module that may be nothing more than a floor sweeping AD9850.

Does anyone know of gerbers for a AD985x module or a Si5351 module so I can make my own modules since already have the main chip. I only know of one person that had gerbers for one of the modules. Does anyone know of others? I do wish designers would put the module circuit on the pc board. They could still add the pins/sockets for the modules and accommodate both worlds without increasing board real estate.

Is there any discussion on the subject?

Thank you.

Jim Pruitt
WA7DUY



Don Vosper
 

Have you seen the info  in the files section regarding the DDS experimenter's board?
Don m5aky

Dave
 

Jim:
  I have Gerbers for a Si5351.  But, you can get the boards with the Si5351 fro a number of vendors for $7 or less.
The AD9951 thru 9954 are much better than the AD9851.  I sell a board for them at
<http://wb6dhw.com/For_Sale.html#995x>

Dave - WB6DHW

On 5/13/2020 10:44 PM, Jim Pruitt wrote:
Hello Nick.

I will see if I can get some activity started then.

I see a lot of projects that use the AD9850 and AD9851 but they all seem to use the module that was so cheap from China 6 years ago but is now up around $25 each and of questionable quality.

It has long since annoyed me that designers use the module (either the AD9850 or a Arduino Nano, etc) when just the chip will do. This is true for the Si5351 as well as the AD985x and Arduino. Often the only thing actually needed for the circuit is the DDS or PLL chip or cpu and the other things on the modules are superfluous.  The reason it annoys me is because I have a stack of AD9850 and AD9851 and AD9854 dds chips and I bought 25 of the Si5351 chips from Digikey a few months ago but I have not found pc boards to accept them and have no desire to spend $25+ for a AD9851 module that may be nothing more than a floor sweeping AD9850.

Does anyone know of gerbers for a AD985x module or a Si5351 module so I can make my own modules since already have the main chip.  I only know of one person that had gerbers for one of the modules. Does anyone know of others?  I do wish designers would put the module circuit on the pc board.  They could still add the pins/sockets for the modules and accommodate both worlds without increasing board real estate.

Is there any discussion on the subject?

Thank you.

Jim Pruitt
WA7DUY




Nick Kennedy
 

It's different for everyone, but I'm not sure I'm up to soldering in any
more TSSOP chips. I've done them successfully with an iron and with a heat
gun but don't want to press my luck going forward.

As for the Si5351a, I've soldered in a few on boards built by others and on
one I did myself using toner transfer. But when I found that you could get
them in a module form for $7 or so, that was a great day. In general, yes -
more fun to do it yourself. But these tiny modules have a 5 V to 3.3 V
regulator plus the 3.x volt to TTL level shifters on board. Add in the
those little coax connectors I can't think of the name of right now, plus
pins for the control logic and it's a sweet deal.

(Is it SMA? Anyway, I usually solder mini-coax right to the pads.)

73-

Nick, WA5BDU

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 12:44 AM Jim Pruitt <jpruitt67@...> wrote:

Hello Nick.

I will see if I can get some activity started then.

I see a lot of projects that use the AD9850 and AD9851 but they all seem
to use the module that was so cheap from China 6 years ago but is now up
around $25 each and of questionable quality.

It has long since annoyed me that designers use the module (either the
AD9850 or a Arduino Nano, etc) when just the chip will do. This is true
for the Si5351 as well as the AD985x and Arduino. Often the only thing
actually needed for the circuit is the DDS or PLL chip or cpu and the
other things on the modules are superfluous. The reason it annoys me is
because I have a stack of AD9850 and AD9851 and AD9854 dds chips and I
bought 25 of the Si5351 chips from Digikey a few months ago but I have
not found pc boards to accept them and have no desire to spend $25+ for
a AD9851 module that may be nothing more than a floor sweeping AD9850.

Does anyone know of gerbers for a AD985x module or a Si5351 module so I
can make my own modules since already have the main chip. I only know
of one person that had gerbers for one of the modules. Does anyone know
of others? I do wish designers would put the module circuit on the pc
board. They could still add the pins/sockets for the modules and
accommodate both worlds without increasing board real estate.

Is there any discussion on the subject?

Thank you.

Jim Pruitt
WA7DUY




EB4APL
 

Hi Jim,

The PHSNA project hardware has a a lot of variants. The main one used a DDS60 module from AmQRP. This used the AD9851 DDS and it is sold assembled or in kit form at http://midnightdesignsolutions.com. When I built mine the kit did not included the DDS chip because you could order free samples from Analog Devices as I did. This module is quite better than the Chinese ones, but it is far more expensive.

I can't speak by the designer, but I think that the main reason for using the Chinese modules in later versions of the PHSNA was price. When the project appeared and even several years after, these modules were far cheaper than buying the chip itself even directly from Analog Devices. I don't know the reason why these modules were so cheap, but I suppose that they began as excess inventory purchased from a manufacturer who used them as a part of other equipment (antenna analyzer perhaps?) and the module manufacturer could continue production after seen how well they were selling them. Two main versions were available with two different pinouts that were named Type I and Type II, there were PHSNA boards designed for each version. Also were modules with the AD9850 and the AD9851, the same PHSNA firmware and software could be used with both. The current price of these Chinese modules is probably due to a reduced supply. Offer and demand.

The reason for using an Arduino was in the the same line. The first version used and Arduino One and later it was changed to Arduino Nano that was cheaper, better and smaller, and directly pluggable on the main board. These micros were so cheap that it was no reason to include the chip in the main board. In fact you need other components such as the crystal, the serial to USB converter and others which added complexity to the building and purchasing.  Also the Arduino has an IDE that is free and very easy to use. Even if you don't do any development, it is needed to load new versions of the firmware in the chip. I know that the Arduino IDE can be used with the AtMega chip without being mounted in an Arduino board, but you need to duplicate the environment in your board and the most difficult part for the standard user is to load the Arduino bootstrap in the virgin chip, you need a programmer for it (even other Arduino can be configured as a programmer). By the way, if you study the main board, it is nothing more that an interconnection board with some regulators, connectors and provision for options, extremely simple.

There is a big difference if a project is intended to become a manufactured product to be sold ready to use, a kit or just leave to the builder the task of procuring the parts. The PHSNA project provided a lot of information such as schematics,  BOMs and provided the PCBs. The builder had to purchase the components from the usual sources. The designer also provided free the firmware, the software and the manuals.

Other projects, such as the now popular nanoVNA, are intended to be sold as a manufactured product. Everything is integrated in a compact PCB and sold assembled, but this project could be not made as a kit or a PCB, it would be difficult for the user to get the parts, difficult to assemble, and certainly more expensive.

About using a Si5351: there is a version of the PHSNA that can use this synthesizer in a plugin module and these modules are very cheap (about $8 or less) and you avoid the task of soldering the tiny chip. I do not recommend using this kind of synthesizer for this project because its output is a square wave, so plenty of odd harmonics. The PHSNA detector is a wide band one, it goes up to 500 MHz so if you are measuring some thing, say a filter, the readings are the sum of the desired frequency component plus all its harmonics winch are indistinguishable and can not be separated by the detector. for this kind of signal source you need a tuned detector, normally based in a superheterodyne receiver.  The DDS is a sine wave generator, a much better option for using it with this type of detector. The Si5351 is advantageous used in the nanoVNA, but there the detector is a superheterodyne SDR receiver.

Best regards and 73,

Ignacio EB4APL

El 14/05/2020 a las 7:44, Jim Pruitt escribió:
Hello Nick.

I will see if I can get some activity started then.

I see a lot of projects that use the AD9850 and AD9851 but they all seem to use the module that was so cheap from China 6 years ago but is now up around $25 each and of questionable quality.

It has long since annoyed me that designers use the module (either the AD9850 or a Arduino Nano, etc) when just the chip will do. This is true for the Si5351 as well as the AD985x and Arduino. Often the only thing actually needed for the circuit is the DDS or PLL chip or cpu and the other things on the modules are superfluous.  The reason it annoys me is because I have a stack of AD9850 and AD9851 and AD9854 dds chips and I bought 25 of the Si5351 chips from Digikey a few months ago but I have not found pc boards to accept them and have no desire to spend $25+ for a AD9851 module that may be nothing more than a floor sweeping AD9850.

Does anyone know of gerbers for a AD985x module or a Si5351 module so I can make my own modules since already have the main chip.  I only know of one person that had gerbers for one of the modules. Does anyone know of others?  I do wish designers would put the module circuit on the pc board.  They could still add the pins/sockets for the modules and accommodate both worlds without increasing board real estate.

Is there any discussion on the subject?

Thank you.

Jim Pruitt
WA7DUY


--
El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Steven Greenfield AE7HD
 

The link there is to a Yahoogroup. Any chance you will be transferring to somewhere else? Technically, Yahoogroups still exist, but everything is gone.

Steve Greenfield AE7HD

 

Nice to see this group is still active.

I need to build mine. Bought the parts a long time ago and then things side side lined by work and stuff. Finally getting active again.

David
KBGPM

Jim Pruitt
 

Don, that experimenter board takes...one of the modules.  This discussion I had hoped would be about how to make my own modules since I do not trust the quality of the Chines modules being sold at 10 times the price they were 3 or 4 years ago.  I have the DDS chips to put on them and I hate to see them go to waste and being on a fixed income it seemed like a good idea to at least try to make my own.

Thank you.

Jim Pruitt
WA7DUY

On 5/13/2020 11:24 PM, Don Vosper via groups.io wrote:
Have you seen the info  in the files section regarding the DDS experimenter's board?
Don m5aky

Glenn
 

Hi Jim, I guess that 'one person' is me. Did you manage to build any of the boards?
Glenn
vk3pe


Does anyone know of gerbers for a AD985x module or a Si5351 module so I can make my own modules since already have the main chip. I only know of one person that had gerbers for one of the modules. Does anyone know of others? I do wish designers would put the module circuit on the pc board. They could still add the pins/sockets for the modules and accommodate both worlds without increasing board real estate.

On Thu, May 14, 2020 at 03:44 PM, Jim Pruitt wrote:


Does anyone know of gerbers for a AD985x module or a Si5351 module so I can
make my own modules since already have the main chip.  I only know of one
person that had gerbers for one of the modules. Does anyone know of others? 
I do wish designers would put the module circuit on the pc board.  They could
still add the pins/sockets for the modules and accommodate both worlds without
increasing board real estate.

Ted KX4OM
 

Glenn and the group,
Not the gerbers, but the photo of a homebrew two-sided PCB apparently made by CO6BG, November 2014. The photos were from a Yahoo group, and my screen capture of the Files list does not show the header for the group. I managed to save files from the qrp-tech group, but if it was the EMRFD group, I don't have the files.

The board looks like it was made with toner transfer or sensitized film photo method. I'll search some more to try to find further info. From my experience, doing a toner transfer two-sided is tedious, especially with a board that small.

Ted, KX4OM

Terry VK5TM
 

I have the EMRD files (but not the photo's) and can't find the CO6BG pcb in a quick search through them.

I'll have a proper look later.

Terry VK5TM

Glenn
 

Thanks Ted, yes its a bit of pain to do double sided. but if you can get the negatives for each side lined up of course, its a bit easier.

Here's an example of an AD9850 board i made some time back,. It's about 1 x 1.5" and is the 2nd LO in a HB Transceiver, the Picastar. I made a toner transfer board initially, then had some made in China.
This board actually has a 8pin Motorola micro on it, which pre-programs the AD9850 to suit the frequency required in the project.

glenn vk3pe

Jim Pruitt
 

This one?
https://ad9850pcbddsvfomodule.blogspot.com/

Thank you.

Jim Pruitt
WA7DUY

On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:07 PM Terry VK5TM <vk5tm@...> wrote:

I have the EMRD files (but not the photo's) and can't find the CO6BG pcb
in a quick search through them.

I'll have a proper look later.

Terry VK5TM



Glenn
 

Thats pretty nice but for homebrew, has some problems. Not insurmountable, but testing patience

Very thin ground heat relief tracks. Could easily be etched away.
Tiny through hole pads, more suited to pro production than home brew. Would test alignment top/bottom to the limit. (small holes can be difficult to home drill also)
Through holes under the chip. OK for pro production but tricky for home brew
Since most home brewers can't do through hole plating, thin wires would have to be fitted in many vias and the connectors.

glenn
vk3pe

Terry VK5TM
 

I've got the CAD file for that one, it is in Sprint layout 6 format.

I can upload that to the files section and/or generate the gerbers for it if anyone is interested.

Terry VK5TM
 

CO6BG DDS pcb CAD file and gerbers uploaded to the file section.

Look for VK5TM folder in the files list.

WARNING - will need some changes before being sent off to be made in a pcb production house as some of the silkscreen text is outside the board outline and may need other things sorted.

Steve Arntz
 

Hi Glenn;
I stopped making most of my boards in favor of a commercial made board. You should look at this web site for price comparisons - https://pcbshopper.com/ The cost of 3, 5, or 10 boards was way cheaper than I thought it would be. I only make a board now for a quick and dirty 1 off project. They will also quote shipping and lead times. I have not checked it lately though...

73 Steve, KM5HT

Terry VK5TM
 

My experience with the pcbshopper site is that it is not 100% accurate.

Always double check with the actual manufacturer re pricing and don't forget to factor the shipping cost into the calculation.

As an example, JLCpcb shows up as being cheaper than PCBway, but JLCpcb's shipping cost's can be up to double the cost of PCBway's.

--
Terry VK5TM
https://www.vk5tm.com