Topics

Tagged White pelican

Debbie Hanson
 

Good morning,

Thought this might be of interest to some.  Saw this pelican at Tri-city Park in Placentia, Sunday 3/3 around 4:00.
There were about a dozen others but this one was off on its own at the north end of the park.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/birdiemama/

All the best,
Debbie Hanson
Yorba Linda 

Debbie Hanson
 

Sorry.Emoji Here is the link to my flickr photo of the tagged pelican. 


Debbie Hanson
Yorba Linda

James Pike
 

Hi Debbie,

The tags appear to be related to a long-term study being conducted at two breeding colonies by the Idaho Dept of Fish and Game. White Pelicans that had experienced increasing breeding success at those two colonies were beginning to have an impact on native trout numbers and those of other game fish that are especially prized by recreational fishermen in Idaho. As a consequence, management efforts were initiated that include hazing, egg and nest destruction, and depredation, along with a banding study to determine the overall effects of these actions. While I found it interesting to discover just how many pelicans were wintering in the region, learning the story behind the study sapped my interest in any further reporting of band numbers.

Jim Pike
HB    

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 9:46 AM Debbie Hanson <alan_hanson@...> wrote:
Sorry.Emoji Here is the link to my flickr photo of the tagged pelican. 


Debbie Hanson
Yorba Linda

Craig Hoover
 

The plan for Idaho's management of pelicans is open for comment it seems:

I worked for the agency in 1978 for two years looking at the possibility of special regulations for the fishery on the reservoir and river.  Looks like pelicans were a recent addition to the problem of what to do with the fish.  I remember tons of Utah chubs, suckers and carp in our trap at the mouth of the reservoir.  The agency sees these as making up 90 percent of the diet of pelicans in the area of the Blackfoot Reservoir.  The management plan is interesting reading.  I worked at a hatchery in that state too, feeding fish by hand. So seeing all that work get consumed by a bunch of birds instead of little kids and families out for  fishing trip conflicts me.

Craig Hoover
Costa Mesa CA

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 10:37 AM James Pike <jimpike444@...> wrote:
Hi Debbie,

The tags appear to be related to a long-term study being conducted at two breeding colonies by the Idaho Dept of Fish and Game. White Pelicans that had experienced increasing breeding success at those two colonies were beginning to have an impact on native trout numbers and those of other game fish that are especially prized by recreational fishermen in Idaho. As a consequence, management efforts were initiated that include hazing, egg and nest destruction, and depredation, along with a banding study to determine the overall effects of these actions. While I found it interesting to discover just how many pelicans were wintering in the region, learning the story behind the study sapped my interest in any further reporting of band numbers.

Jim Pike
HB    

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 9:46 AM Debbie Hanson <alan_hanson@...> wrote:
Sorry.Emoji Here is the link to my flickr photo of the tagged pelican. 


Debbie Hanson
Yorba Linda



--
Craig Hoover
Costa Mesa, CA

Gjon Hazard
 

Jim:

While I can relate to your sapped enthusiasm for reporting, consider the alternative. When the time comes, the decision maker will be making a decision regardless of whether he or she has data. By suppressing information, will that decision be better or worse? Who can say? Whether a given decision is "good or bad" will always be in the eye of the beholder, but it seems to me, an *informed* decision will, in such circumstances, always be preferable to an uninformed decision. 

[And I say that fully aware of -- and, alas, all the more frustrated by -- our other recent communication.]

-Gjon


On Mar 4, 2019, at 10:37 AM, James Pike <jimpike444@...> wrote:

Hi Debbie,

The tags appear to be related to a long-term study being conducted at two breeding colonies by the Idaho Dept of Fish and Game. White Pelicans that had experienced increasing breeding success at those two colonies were beginning to have an impact on native trout numbers and those of other game fish that are especially prized by recreational fishermen in Idaho. As a consequence, management efforts were initiated that include hazing, egg and nest destruction, and depredation, along with a banding study to determine the overall effects of these actions. While I found it interesting to discover just how many pelicans were wintering in the region, learning the story behind the study sapped my interest in any further reporting of band numbers.

Jim Pike
HB    

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 9:46 AM Debbie Hanson <alan_hanson@...> wrote:
Sorry.Emoji Here is the link to my flickr photo of the tagged pelican. 


Debbie Hanson
Yorba Linda

Linette Davenport
 

I didn’t check to see if the American White Pelican has any particular status in Idaho, but it is considered a Species of Special Concern by the State of California, so it is certainly worth reporting tagged individuals from Idaho when they are in California, since they are protected here. Any negative impacts to their populations while they are in other places would definitely be of interest to wildlife management at our state level and also the federal level.

 

Linette Davenport

Orange, CA

 

From: OrangeCountyBirding@groups.io <OrangeCountyBirding@groups.io> On Behalf Of Gjon Hazard
Sent: Monday, March 4, 2019 8:28 PM
To: James Pike <jimpike444@...>
Cc: Orangecountybirding <orangecountybirding@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [OrangeCountyBirding] Tagged White pelican

 

Jim:

 

While I can relate to your sapped enthusiasm for reporting, consider the alternative. When the time comes, the decision maker will be making a decision regardless of whether he or she has data. By suppressing information, will that decision be better or worse? Who can say? Whether a given decision is "good or bad" will always be in the eye of the beholder, but it seems to me, an *informed* decision will, in such circumstances, always be preferable to an uninformed decision. 

 

[And I say that fully aware of -- and, alas, all the more frustrated by -- our other recent communication.]


-Gjon

 


On Mar 4, 2019, at 10:37 AM, James Pike <jimpike444@...> wrote:

Hi Debbie,

 

The tags appear to be related to a long-term study being conducted at two breeding colonies by the Idaho Dept of Fish and Game. White Pelicans that had experienced increasing breeding success at those two colonies were beginning to have an impact on native trout numbers and those of other game fish that are especially prized by recreational fishermen in Idaho. As a consequence, management efforts were initiated that include hazing, egg and nest destruction, and depredation, along with a banding study to determine the overall effects of these actions. While I found it interesting to discover just how many pelicans were wintering in the region, learning the story behind the study sapped my interest in any further reporting of band numbers.

 

Jim Pike

HB    

 

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 9:46 AM Debbie Hanson <alan_hanson@...> wrote:

Sorry.Emoji Here is the link to my flickr photo of the tagged pelican. 

 

 

Debbie Hanson

Yorba Linda


--
Linette Davenport
Orange, CA

Debbie Hanson
 

Good morning,

Thank you all for your responses on the tagged pelican.  Definite food for thought in the answers.

All the best,
Debbie Hanson
Yorba Linda

James Pike
 

Hi Gjon, 

Where we differ is that you want Idaho authorities to make the best-informed decision possible when determining the optimal number of eggs to destroy and adult pelicans to kill, whereas I want them to make an entirely *different* decision, one that doesn’t involve either of those options. You evidently can reconcile assisting them in their efforts, while I can’t. A similar banding study involving Double-crested Cormorants being conducted on Sand Island at the mouth of the Columbia River employs similar methods in hopes of achieving similar aims as those in Idaho. After researching this project online, I contributed money to the Audubon Society of Portland to assist their lawsuit seeking to halt the project rather than choosing to contribute cormorant band-numbers to assist the project itself. The bottom line is that birders deserve to know why they are encountering bands on these fish-eating species and how the data they contribute might be used in service of these studies. Maybe they’ll conclude that the ends justify the means, or maybe they won’t. 

Jim Pike

HB 


On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 8:27 PM Gjon Hazard <gjon_hazard@...> wrote:
Jim:

While I can relate to your sapped enthusiasm for reporting, consider the alternative. When the time comes, the decision maker will be making a decision regardless of whether he or she has data. By suppressing information, will that decision be better or worse? Who can say? Whether a given decision is "good or bad" will always be in the eye of the beholder, but it seems to me, an *informed* decision will, in such circumstances, always be preferable to an uninformed decision. 

[And I say that fully aware of -- and, alas, all the more frustrated by -- our other recent communication.]

-Gjon


On Mar 4, 2019, at 10:37 AM, James Pike <jimpike444@...> wrote:

Hi Debbie,

The tags appear to be related to a long-term study being conducted at two breeding colonies by the Idaho Dept of Fish and Game. White Pelicans that had experienced increasing breeding success at those two colonies were beginning to have an impact on native trout numbers and those of other game fish that are especially prized by recreational fishermen in Idaho. As a consequence, management efforts were initiated that include hazing, egg and nest destruction, and depredation, along with a banding study to determine the overall effects of these actions. While I found it interesting to discover just how many pelicans were wintering in the region, learning the story behind the study sapped my interest in any further reporting of band numbers.

Jim Pike
HB    

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 9:46 AM Debbie Hanson <alan_hanson@...> wrote:
Sorry.Emoji Here is the link to my flickr photo of the tagged pelican. 


Debbie Hanson
Yorba Linda

Linette Davenport
 

They wouldn’t need bird tags to determine the “optimal number of eggs to destroy and adult pelicans to kill” – they would simply have to count the numbers of pelicans feeding at these reservoirs to get that number. If anything, tracking the tagged adults provides evidence to argue *against* the practice. For example: stop killing these pelicans, because they are known to winter in the state of California, where their population numbers are such that the State has designated them as a Species of Species Concern. Evidence? Reports of tagged individuals in CA.

 

Also, tracking the tagged individuals gives information on if those pelicans even return to the breeding sites. If they get attacked and hazed so much from those colonies in Idaho that they decide to start breeding somewhere else, that might give Idaho Fish & Game reason to focus more on hazing than on destroying eggs, or it might make them decide to ease up on the program. Or they may find out that those tagged pelicans from the Idaho breeding colonies aren’t even the ones that are feeding on the fish – those birds might head further south after breeding, and the offending pelicans might be from Canada. The scenarios are many, and reporting data helps figure that out.

 

Thank you for letting us know about this situation, Jim! And airing your concerns helped start a (hopefully) constructive and educational conversation on the value of data.

 

Linette Davenport

Orange, CA

 

From: OrangeCountyBirding@groups.io <OrangeCountyBirding@groups.io> On Behalf Of James Pike
Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 9:40 AM
To: Gjon Hazard <gjon_hazard@...>
Cc: Orangecountybirding <orangecountybirding@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [OrangeCountyBirding] Tagged White pelican

 

Hi Gjon, 

Where we differ is that you want Idaho authorities to make the best-informed decision possible when determining the optimal number of eggs to destroy and adult pelicans to kill, whereas I want them to make an entirely *different* decision, one that doesn’t involve either of those options. You evidently can reconcile assisting them in their efforts, while I can’t. A similar banding study involving Double-crested Cormorants being conducted on Sand Island at the mouth of the Columbia River employs similar methods in hopes of achieving similar aims as those in Idaho. After researching this project online, I contributed money to the Audubon Society of Portland to assist their lawsuit seeking to halt the project rather than choosing to contribute cormorant band-numbers to assist the project itself. The bottom line is that birders deserve to know why they are encountering bands on these fish-eating species and how the data they contribute might be used in service of these studies. Maybe they’ll conclude that the ends justify the means, or maybe they won’t. 

Jim Pike

HB 

 

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 8:27 PM Gjon Hazard <gjon_hazard@...> wrote:

Jim:

 

While I can relate to your sapped enthusiasm for reporting, consider the alternative. When the time comes, the decision maker will be making a decision regardless of whether he or she has data. By suppressing information, will that decision be better or worse? Who can say? Whether a given decision is "good or bad" will always be in the eye of the beholder, but it seems to me, an *informed* decision will, in such circumstances, always be preferable to an uninformed decision. 

 

[And I say that fully aware of -- and, alas, all the more frustrated by -- our other recent communication.]


-Gjon

 


On Mar 4, 2019, at 10:37 AM, James Pike <jimpike444@...> wrote:

Hi Debbie,

 

The tags appear to be related to a long-term study being conducted at two breeding colonies by the Idaho Dept of Fish and Game. White Pelicans that had experienced increasing breeding success at those two colonies were beginning to have an impact on native trout numbers and those of other game fish that are especially prized by recreational fishermen in Idaho. As a consequence, management efforts were initiated that include hazing, egg and nest destruction, and depredation, along with a banding study to determine the overall effects of these actions. While I found it interesting to discover just how many pelicans were wintering in the region, learning the story behind the study sapped my interest in any further reporting of band numbers.

 

Jim Pike

HB    

 

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 9:46 AM Debbie Hanson <alan_hanson@...> wrote:

Sorry.Emoji Here is the link to my flickr photo of the tagged pelican. 

 

 

Debbie Hanson

Yorba Linda


--
Linette Davenport
Orange, CA

Craig Hoover
 

The Pacific Flyway Council site is here:


They have posted abstracts on several migratory species.  All the states I think are beheld to this group in how they manage these birds.  More interesting reading for those interested.  I haven't read any of it yet!  But I will and I hope others will too.

Craig Hoover
Costa Mesa, CA

On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 10:19 AM Linette Davenport <littlewing250@...> wrote:

They wouldn’t need bird tags to determine the “optimal number of eggs to destroy and adult pelicans to kill” – they would simply have to count the numbers of pelicans feeding at these reservoirs to get that number. If anything, tracking the tagged adults provides evidence to argue *against* the practice. For example: stop killing these pelicans, because they are known to winter in the state of California, where their population numbers are such that the State has designated them as a Species of Species Concern. Evidence? Reports of tagged individuals in CA.

 

Also, tracking the tagged individuals gives information on if those pelicans even return to the breeding sites. If they get attacked and hazed so much from those colonies in Idaho that they decide to start breeding somewhere else, that might give Idaho Fish & Game reason to focus more on hazing than on destroying eggs, or it might make them decide to ease up on the program. Or they may find out that those tagged pelicans from the Idaho breeding colonies aren’t even the ones that are feeding on the fish – those birds might head further south after breeding, and the offending pelicans might be from Canada. The scenarios are many, and reporting data helps figure that out.

 

Thank you for letting us know about this situation, Jim! And airing your concerns helped start a (hopefully) constructive and educational conversation on the value of data.

 

Linette Davenport

Orange, CA

 

From: OrangeCountyBirding@groups.io <OrangeCountyBirding@groups.io> On Behalf Of James Pike
Sent: Tuesday, March 5, 2019 9:40 AM
To: Gjon Hazard <gjon_hazard@...>
Cc: Orangecountybirding <orangecountybirding@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [OrangeCountyBirding] Tagged White pelican

 

Hi Gjon, 

Where we differ is that you want Idaho authorities to make the best-informed decision possible when determining the optimal number of eggs to destroy and adult pelicans to kill, whereas I want them to make an entirely *different* decision, one that doesn’t involve either of those options. You evidently can reconcile assisting them in their efforts, while I can’t. A similar banding study involving Double-crested Cormorants being conducted on Sand Island at the mouth of the Columbia River employs similar methods in hopes of achieving similar aims as those in Idaho. After researching this project online, I contributed money to the Audubon Society of Portland to assist their lawsuit seeking to halt the project rather than choosing to contribute cormorant band-numbers to assist the project itself. The bottom line is that birders deserve to know why they are encountering bands on these fish-eating species and how the data they contribute might be used in service of these studies. Maybe they’ll conclude that the ends justify the means, or maybe they won’t. 

Jim Pike

HB 

 

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 8:27 PM Gjon Hazard <gjon_hazard@...> wrote:

Jim:

 

While I can relate to your sapped enthusiasm for reporting, consider the alternative. When the time comes, the decision maker will be making a decision regardless of whether he or she has data. By suppressing information, will that decision be better or worse? Who can say? Whether a given decision is "good or bad" will always be in the eye of the beholder, but it seems to me, an *informed* decision will, in such circumstances, always be preferable to an uninformed decision. 

 

[And I say that fully aware of -- and, alas, all the more frustrated by -- our other recent communication.]


-Gjon

 


On Mar 4, 2019, at 10:37 AM, James Pike <jimpike444@...> wrote:

Hi Debbie,

 

The tags appear to be related to a long-term study being conducted at two breeding colonies by the Idaho Dept of Fish and Game. White Pelicans that had experienced increasing breeding success at those two colonies were beginning to have an impact on native trout numbers and those of other game fish that are especially prized by recreational fishermen in Idaho. As a consequence, management efforts were initiated that include hazing, egg and nest destruction, and depredation, along with a banding study to determine the overall effects of these actions. While I found it interesting to discover just how many pelicans were wintering in the region, learning the story behind the study sapped my interest in any further reporting of band numbers.

 

Jim Pike

HB    

 

On Mon, Mar 4, 2019 at 9:46 AM Debbie Hanson <alan_hanson@...> wrote:

Sorry.Emoji Here is the link to my flickr photo of the tagged pelican. 

 

 

Debbie Hanson

Yorba Linda


--
Linette Davenport
Orange, CA



--
Craig Hoover
Costa Mesa, CA