Date   

Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

Kelsey King
 

This looks like the gray Pugets to me, from the Joint Base area. I haven’t seen many azures there myself. 


Here are some pictures from Johnson prairie, you can see all the variety! 


p.s. please excuse the ones with sharpie marks from our mark recapture study. 

 


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

Stewart Wechsler
 

With disagreement among the experts on this one, I'm pleased to say that my second ID of "I'm not sure which it is.", after initially agreeing with the observer that it was blackmorei, was a respectable ID!

-Stewart

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 3:52 PM mcallisters4 <mcallisters4@...> wrote:

Well, I’ve learned many new things including another alternative vernacular, Blackmore’s Blue (apparently inaturalist’s standard) and that this loosely prairie-associated butterfly is found in downtown Rainier. I took lots of pictures of blues like the Olympia airport butterfly at Johnson’s Prairie but I’m guessing they’re all Ektachrome slides in a giant storage tub in my attic.

 

Thanks to all who participated in this. It’s been very helpful to me.

 

Kelly McAllister

 

From: NorWestLeps@groups.io <NorWestLeps@groups.io> On Behalf Of Stewart Wechsler
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2022 10:29 AM
To: NorWestLeps@groups.io
Subject: Re: [NorWestLeps] Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

 

I now found the iNaturalist observation and dialogue.  (I had mistakenly been looking for one of Kelly's observations.)  I initially agreed with the observer's ID of Icaricia icaroides blackmorei, then after Kelly suggested Celastrina echo, I looked again, and wasn't sure which it was, and pulled back to Polyommatini.

 

-Stewart

 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:08 AM Caitlin LaBar <caitlinlabar@...> wrote:

I hate to disagree with Norbert and Bob but I think it’s icarioides.

The ground color is two-toned fuzzy gray, not worn/missing scales, while Celastrina echo from this area is very flat white/pale gray with more distinctive marginal markings.

The hindwing shape is elongated like Icaricia, not rounded like Celastrina.

The spots have white halos, which isn’t very distinct on Celastrina.

The upper two spots near the costa are oriented so that if you draw a line through them it angles far back, usually in line with the next (third down) spot, as illustrated by my red sketch line on the attachment, which is almost always the pattern in icarioides. In Celastrina, a line through these two spots angles down, such as how I drew the two blue lines.

Hope this helps. I’ll try to dig up some photos later today of blackmorei from my graduate studies at Johnson Prairie. The ones in that area vary from looking like Kelly’s image to Norbert’s, and everything in between.

 

Caitlin 

 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 8:54 AM Stewart Wechsler <ecostewart@...> wrote:

If I was wrong, I'm happy to be corrected!  That said, now I want to find that image on iNaturalist, to see what I said, but can't find it.  Do you have the iNaturalist link Kelly?

 

-Stewart

 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:04 AM Norbert Kondla <nkondla@...> wrote:

I vote for Celastrina. In addition to what Bob pointed out, note also the dark terminal line on the ventral hind wing. The icarioides subspecies blackmorei and montis do have very lightly marked ventral hindwings but lack the dark terminal line. Both of these were described from nearby southwestern British Columbia. You can see pics of the name bearing types here

and here

 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:39 AM <tlpyle@...> wrote:

Well, Kelly, this one is a challenge! But I think you were right in the first place, that it is an Echo Azure.

My dictum about "any spots distal of the mesial band" being Icaricia only applies to individuals that might be taken for Glaucopsyche, which this one would not. Actually, ALL the blues (I think) have maculation distal of the mesial band EXCEPT for silveries; so perhaps I should have framed that in the opposite terms. I can see why Stewart would think this a Boisduval's, given the state of the mesial band of spots; but:

the field mark that most says "Celastrina" to me about this one is the long vertical dash in the cell, a classic azure marking. Also, the submarginal spots almost suggest chevrons, which azures generally display. I suspect your Johnson's Prairie puddlers were also azures.

Pelham? Norbert? Thoughts?

As always, specimens solve the issue!

Bob

 

 

On 2022-06-22 10:27 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval's Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval's Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn't think it was a Boisduval's Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn't believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles' words from yesterday, "If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia." I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I'd appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson's Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson's Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I'll know what I'm looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 


 

--

Norbert Kondla

Calgary, Alberta, Canada  (elevation 1060 metres asl)

 

--

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

mcallisters4
 

Well, I’ve learned many new things including another alternative vernacular, Blackmore’s Blue (apparently inaturalist’s standard) and that this loosely prairie-associated butterfly is found in downtown Rainier. I took lots of pictures of blues like the Olympia airport butterfly at Johnson’s Prairie but I’m guessing they’re all Ektachrome slides in a giant storage tub in my attic.

 

Thanks to all who participated in this. It’s been very helpful to me.

 

Kelly McAllister

 

From: NorWestLeps@groups.io <NorWestLeps@groups.io> On Behalf Of Stewart Wechsler
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2022 10:29 AM
To: NorWestLeps@groups.io
Subject: Re: [NorWestLeps] Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

 

I now found the iNaturalist observation and dialogue.  (I had mistakenly been looking for one of Kelly's observations.)  I initially agreed with the observer's ID of Icaricia icaroides blackmorei, then after Kelly suggested Celastrina echo, I looked again, and wasn't sure which it was, and pulled back to Polyommatini.

 

-Stewart

 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:08 AM Caitlin LaBar <caitlinlabar@...> wrote:

I hate to disagree with Norbert and Bob but I think it’s icarioides.

The ground color is two-toned fuzzy gray, not worn/missing scales, while Celastrina echo from this area is very flat white/pale gray with more distinctive marginal markings.

The hindwing shape is elongated like Icaricia, not rounded like Celastrina.

The spots have white halos, which isn’t very distinct on Celastrina.

The upper two spots near the costa are oriented so that if you draw a line through them it angles far back, usually in line with the next (third down) spot, as illustrated by my red sketch line on the attachment, which is almost always the pattern in icarioides. In Celastrina, a line through these two spots angles down, such as how I drew the two blue lines.

Hope this helps. I’ll try to dig up some photos later today of blackmorei from my graduate studies at Johnson Prairie. The ones in that area vary from looking like Kelly’s image to Norbert’s, and everything in between.

 

Caitlin 

 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 8:54 AM Stewart Wechsler <ecostewart@...> wrote:

If I was wrong, I'm happy to be corrected!  That said, now I want to find that image on iNaturalist, to see what I said, but can't find it.  Do you have the iNaturalist link Kelly?

 

-Stewart

 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:04 AM Norbert Kondla <nkondla@...> wrote:

I vote for Celastrina. In addition to what Bob pointed out, note also the dark terminal line on the ventral hind wing. The icarioides subspecies blackmorei and montis do have very lightly marked ventral hindwings but lack the dark terminal line. Both of these were described from nearby southwestern British Columbia. You can see pics of the name bearing types here

and here

 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:39 AM <tlpyle@...> wrote:

Well, Kelly, this one is a challenge! But I think you were right in the first place, that it is an Echo Azure.

My dictum about "any spots distal of the mesial band" being Icaricia only applies to individuals that might be taken for Glaucopsyche, which this one would not. Actually, ALL the blues (I think) have maculation distal of the mesial band EXCEPT for silveries; so perhaps I should have framed that in the opposite terms. I can see why Stewart would think this a Boisduval's, given the state of the mesial band of spots; but:

the field mark that most says "Celastrina" to me about this one is the long vertical dash in the cell, a classic azure marking. Also, the submarginal spots almost suggest chevrons, which azures generally display. I suspect your Johnson's Prairie puddlers were also azures.

Pelham? Norbert? Thoughts?

As always, specimens solve the issue!

Bob

 

 

On 2022-06-22 10:27 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval's Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval's Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn't think it was a Boisduval's Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn't believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles' words from yesterday, "If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia." I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I'd appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson's Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson's Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I'll know what I'm looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 


 

--

Norbert Kondla

Calgary, Alberta, Canada  (elevation 1060 metres asl)

 

--

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

tlpyle@...
 

Hmmm...and JPP agrees with Caitlin. I'd like to just defer to you both, but I am not quite convinced. The gray looks like wear and lost scales to me. The spot-band does look more like some Boisduval's; but that vertical cell-bar and the submarginal band speak of Celastrina to my eye, and Norbert mentions the terminal line. I wasn't aware of the spot-alignment formula you describe, Caitlin--if that holds up, we should add it to some future revision of BPNW, like Pelham's editha-line!

Here's where there's just no substitute for being able to compare long series of museum specimens--or the photographic equivalent, like Norbert's wonderful series of curated, adjacent images. The BOA website is not very helpful in this instance, none of the I. i. blackmorei images looking remotely like this butterfly. If you can find more of your images, Caitlin, that may be helpful. Wish we had the dorsal view too.

Both of these species are highly variable, and they clearly have some overlap in their variation. Usually they are a simple matter to distinguish, but this one is hoodwinking some of us or the others! Ha--that's nature!

RMP



 


On 2022-06-23 9:07 am, Caitlin LaBar wrote:

 
I hate to disagree with Norbert and Bob but I think it's icarioides.
The ground color is two-toned fuzzy gray, not worn/missing scales, while Celastrina echo from this area is very flat white/pale gray with more distinctive marginal markings.
The hindwing shape is elongated like Icaricia, not rounded like Celastrina.
The spots have white halos, which isn't very distinct on Celastrina.
The upper two spots near the costa are oriented so that if you draw a line through them it angles far back, usually in line with the next (third down) spot, as illustrated by my red sketch line on the attachment, which is almost always the pattern in icarioides. In Celastrina, a line through these two spots angles down, such as how I drew the two blue lines.
Hope this helps. I'll try to dig up some photos later today of blackmorei from my graduate studies at Johnson Prairie. The ones in that area vary from looking like Kelly's image to Norbert's, and everything in between.
 
Caitlin 

 


Re: Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

Combs, Julie (DFW)
 

Oops, meant to thank Caitlin for ID tips of blackmorei and lygdamus…multitasking while typing does not mix!

 

From: NorWestLeps@groups.io <NorWestLeps@groups.io> On Behalf Of Caitlin LaBar via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 11:22 PM
To: NorWestLeps@groups.io
Subject: Re: [NorWestLeps] Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

 

External Email

Yes those are all icarioides blackmorei. Male Silvery Blues don’t have much of a brown edge between the blue and the wing fringe, while icarioides almost always have a noticeable brown margin, and blackmorei in particular can have a very wide margin, I’ve seen up to a third of the wing, making them look almost like a female.

As to color tint, icarioides is usually a dusty lavender while lygdamus has a bright glint (i.e. silvery), but photo angle can affect that, such as your first Flickr photo that looks super bright. It has a wide brown margin though and you can see enough of the ventral to make out the fuzziness of icarioides rather than more sharp spots on lygdamus.

 

Puget blues are definitely known from all over Rocky Prairie but I don’t know what the most recent records are.

 

Caitlin 

--

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Re: Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

Combs, Julie (DFW)
 

Hi Kelly,

Those photos are lovely! Also, thanks to Caitlin for the speedy verification and ID tips between subspecies icariodies and blackmorei.

 

Kelly, I wanted to let you know that WDFW has documented Puget Blues annually at West Rocky Prairie so it is not uncommon to see them there. If others would like to view them at this site please keep in mind that there are several sensitive areas at West Rocky Prairie, please stay on designated trails when viewing and photographing butterflies.   

 

Happy butterfly hunting everyone…the weather is finally warming up!

-Julie

 

­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­­____________________________________

Julie K. Combs, PhD (she/her)

Pollinator Species Lead

Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife

Wildlife Diversity Division | Conservation Assessment Section

1111 Washington Street SE | Olympia, WA  98504

Julie.Combs@...

206-888-7256 (cell)

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: NorWestLeps@groups.io <NorWestLeps@groups.io> On Behalf Of mcallisters4 via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 11:05 PM
To: NorWestLeps@groups.io
Subject: [NorWestLeps] Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

 

External Email

I spent some time, yesterday, trying to photograph blues on the sickle-keeled lupines at West Rocky Prairie in Thurston County. I got several dozen pictures of blues. The only views of ventral hind wings suggested that the only blues I was seeing were Puget Blues (Icaricia icarioides blackmorei). I Hs field notes that indicated I had seen Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie in 2004 but I can’t find any pictures from those observations so I was feeling a bit uncertain. Perhaps others have seen the species there recently (Cheryl Schultz has, I believe). I noticed the inaturalist didn’t have any records at that particular prairie. I put 4 of my photos in my Flickr collection if anyone wants to have a look and critique my identifications. If anyone has tips on identifying Puget Blues from Silvery Blues based solely on a dorsal view, I’d love to hear them. The various descriptions of shades of blue don’t help me much. Guess I need some kind of color chart to help me with descriptors like cerulean blue (I’ll check my Crayola 64 pack).

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52163407942/in/dateposted-public/

 

 


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

Stewart Wechsler
 

I now found the iNaturalist observation and dialogue.  (I had mistakenly been looking for one of Kelly's observations.)  I initially agreed with the observer's ID of Icaricia icaroides blackmorei, then after Kelly suggested Celastrina echo, I looked again, and wasn't sure which it was, and pulled back to Polyommatini.

-Stewart

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:08 AM Caitlin LaBar <caitlinlabar@...> wrote:
I hate to disagree with Norbert and Bob but I think it’s icarioides.
The ground color is two-toned fuzzy gray, not worn/missing scales, while Celastrina echo from this area is very flat white/pale gray with more distinctive marginal markings.
The hindwing shape is elongated like Icaricia, not rounded like Celastrina.
The spots have white halos, which isn’t very distinct on Celastrina.
The upper two spots near the costa are oriented so that if you draw a line through them it angles far back, usually in line with the next (third down) spot, as illustrated by my red sketch line on the attachment, which is almost always the pattern in icarioides. In Celastrina, a line through these two spots angles down, such as how I drew the two blue lines.
Hope this helps. I’ll try to dig up some photos later today of blackmorei from my graduate studies at Johnson Prairie. The ones in that area vary from looking like Kelly’s image to Norbert’s, and everything in between.

Caitlin 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 8:54 AM Stewart Wechsler <ecostewart@...> wrote:
If I was wrong, I'm happy to be corrected!  That said, now I want to find that image on iNaturalist, to see what I said, but can't find it.  Do you have the iNaturalist link Kelly?

-Stewart

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:04 AM Norbert Kondla <nkondla@...> wrote:
I vote for Celastrina. In addition to what Bob pointed out, note also the dark terminal line on the ventral hind wing. The icarioides subspecies blackmorei and montis do have very lightly marked ventral hindwings but lack the dark terminal line. Both of these were described from nearby southwestern British Columbia. You can see pics of the name bearing types here
and here

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:39 AM <tlpyle@...> wrote:

Well, Kelly, this one is a challenge! But I think you were right in the first place, that it is an Echo Azure.

My dictum about "any spots distal of the mesial band" being Icaricia only applies to individuals that might be taken for Glaucopsyche, which this one would not. Actually, ALL the blues (I think) have maculation distal of the mesial band EXCEPT for silveries; so perhaps I should have framed that in the opposite terms. I can see why Stewart would think this a Boisduval's, given the state of the mesial band of spots; but:

the field mark that most says "Celastrina" to me about this one is the long vertical dash in the cell, a classic azure marking. Also, the submarginal spots almost suggest chevrons, which azures generally display. I suspect your Johnson's Prairie puddlers were also azures.

Pelham? Norbert? Thoughts?

As always, specimens solve the issue!

Bob

 


On 2022-06-22 10:27 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval's Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval's Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn't think it was a Boisduval's Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn't believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles' words from yesterday, "If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia." I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I'd appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson's Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson's Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I'll know what I'm looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 



--
Norbert Kondla
Calgary, Alberta, Canada  (elevation 1060 metres asl)

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

Caitlin LaBar
 

Still haven't dug up my own photos yet but I found the iNaturalist link for the image in question: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/35926051

Here is another iNaturalist record https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/50779190 where the male on the left looks like the individual in question and the female on the right is clearly I. icarioides blackmorei.
All three images in this record are also similar: https://www.inaturalist.org/observations/35953757

Caitlin

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:08 AM Caitlin LaBar via groups.io <caitlinlabar=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
I hate to disagree with Norbert and Bob but I think it’s icarioides.
The ground color is two-toned fuzzy gray, not worn/missing scales, while Celastrina echo from this area is very flat white/pale gray with more distinctive marginal markings.
The hindwing shape is elongated like Icaricia, not rounded like Celastrina.
The spots have white halos, which isn’t very distinct on Celastrina.
The upper two spots near the costa are oriented so that if you draw a line through them it angles far back, usually in line with the next (third down) spot, as illustrated by my red sketch line on the attachment, which is almost always the pattern in icarioides. In Celastrina, a line through these two spots angles down, such as how I drew the two blue lines.
Hope this helps. I’ll try to dig up some photos later today of blackmorei from my graduate studies at Johnson Prairie. The ones in that area vary from looking like Kelly’s image to Norbert’s, and everything in between.

Caitlin 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 8:54 AM Stewart Wechsler <ecostewart@...> wrote:
If I was wrong, I'm happy to be corrected!  That said, now I want to find that image on iNaturalist, to see what I said, but can't find it.  Do you have the iNaturalist link Kelly?

-Stewart

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:04 AM Norbert Kondla <nkondla@...> wrote:
I vote for Celastrina. In addition to what Bob pointed out, note also the dark terminal line on the ventral hind wing. The icarioides subspecies blackmorei and montis do have very lightly marked ventral hindwings but lack the dark terminal line. Both of these were described from nearby southwestern British Columbia. You can see pics of the name bearing types here
and here

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:39 AM <tlpyle@...> wrote:

Well, Kelly, this one is a challenge! But I think you were right in the first place, that it is an Echo Azure.

My dictum about "any spots distal of the mesial band" being Icaricia only applies to individuals that might be taken for Glaucopsyche, which this one would not. Actually, ALL the blues (I think) have maculation distal of the mesial band EXCEPT for silveries; so perhaps I should have framed that in the opposite terms. I can see why Stewart would think this a Boisduval's, given the state of the mesial band of spots; but:

the field mark that most says "Celastrina" to me about this one is the long vertical dash in the cell, a classic azure marking. Also, the submarginal spots almost suggest chevrons, which azures generally display. I suspect your Johnson's Prairie puddlers were also azures.

Pelham? Norbert? Thoughts?

As always, specimens solve the issue!

Bob

 


On 2022-06-22 10:27 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval's Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval's Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn't think it was a Boisduval's Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn't believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles' words from yesterday, "If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia." I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I'd appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson's Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson's Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I'll know what I'm looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 



--
Norbert Kondla
Calgary, Alberta, Canada  (elevation 1060 metres asl)

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

Caitlin LaBar
 

I hate to disagree with Norbert and Bob but I think it’s icarioides.
The ground color is two-toned fuzzy gray, not worn/missing scales, while Celastrina echo from this area is very flat white/pale gray with more distinctive marginal markings.
The hindwing shape is elongated like Icaricia, not rounded like Celastrina.
The spots have white halos, which isn’t very distinct on Celastrina.
The upper two spots near the costa are oriented so that if you draw a line through them it angles far back, usually in line with the next (third down) spot, as illustrated by my red sketch line on the attachment, which is almost always the pattern in icarioides. In Celastrina, a line through these two spots angles down, such as how I drew the two blue lines.
Hope this helps. I’ll try to dig up some photos later today of blackmorei from my graduate studies at Johnson Prairie. The ones in that area vary from looking like Kelly’s image to Norbert’s, and everything in between.

Caitlin 

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 8:54 AM Stewart Wechsler <ecostewart@...> wrote:
If I was wrong, I'm happy to be corrected!  That said, now I want to find that image on iNaturalist, to see what I said, but can't find it.  Do you have the iNaturalist link Kelly?

-Stewart

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:04 AM Norbert Kondla <nkondla@...> wrote:
I vote for Celastrina. In addition to what Bob pointed out, note also the dark terminal line on the ventral hind wing. The icarioides subspecies blackmorei and montis do have very lightly marked ventral hindwings but lack the dark terminal line. Both of these were described from nearby southwestern British Columbia. You can see pics of the name bearing types here
and here

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:39 AM <tlpyle@...> wrote:

Well, Kelly, this one is a challenge! But I think you were right in the first place, that it is an Echo Azure.

My dictum about "any spots distal of the mesial band" being Icaricia only applies to individuals that might be taken for Glaucopsyche, which this one would not. Actually, ALL the blues (I think) have maculation distal of the mesial band EXCEPT for silveries; so perhaps I should have framed that in the opposite terms. I can see why Stewart would think this a Boisduval's, given the state of the mesial band of spots; but:

the field mark that most says "Celastrina" to me about this one is the long vertical dash in the cell, a classic azure marking. Also, the submarginal spots almost suggest chevrons, which azures generally display. I suspect your Johnson's Prairie puddlers were also azures.

Pelham? Norbert? Thoughts?

As always, specimens solve the issue!

Bob

 


On 2022-06-22 10:27 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval's Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval's Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn't think it was a Boisduval's Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn't believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles' words from yesterday, "If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia." I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I'd appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson's Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson's Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I'll know what I'm looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 



--
Norbert Kondla
Calgary, Alberta, Canada  (elevation 1060 metres asl)

--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

Stewart Wechsler
 

If I was wrong, I'm happy to be corrected!  That said, now I want to find that image on iNaturalist, to see what I said, but can't find it.  Do you have the iNaturalist link Kelly?

-Stewart

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 6:04 AM Norbert Kondla <nkondla@...> wrote:
I vote for Celastrina. In addition to what Bob pointed out, note also the dark terminal line on the ventral hind wing. The icarioides subspecies blackmorei and montis do have very lightly marked ventral hindwings but lack the dark terminal line. Both of these were described from nearby southwestern British Columbia. You can see pics of the name bearing types here
and here

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:39 AM <tlpyle@...> wrote:

Well, Kelly, this one is a challenge! But I think you were right in the first place, that it is an Echo Azure.

My dictum about "any spots distal of the mesial band" being Icaricia only applies to individuals that might be taken for Glaucopsyche, which this one would not. Actually, ALL the blues (I think) have maculation distal of the mesial band EXCEPT for silveries; so perhaps I should have framed that in the opposite terms. I can see why Stewart would think this a Boisduval's, given the state of the mesial band of spots; but:

the field mark that most says "Celastrina" to me about this one is the long vertical dash in the cell, a classic azure marking. Also, the submarginal spots almost suggest chevrons, which azures generally display. I suspect your Johnson's Prairie puddlers were also azures.

Pelham? Norbert? Thoughts?

As always, specimens solve the issue!

Bob

 


On 2022-06-22 10:27 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval's Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval's Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn't think it was a Boisduval's Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn't believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles' words from yesterday, "If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia." I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I'd appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson's Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson's Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I'll know what I'm looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 



--
Norbert Kondla
Calgary, Alberta, Canada  (elevation 1060 metres asl)


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

Norbert Kondla
 

I vote for Celastrina. In addition to what Bob pointed out, note also the dark terminal line on the ventral hind wing. The icarioides subspecies blackmorei and montis do have very lightly marked ventral hindwings but lack the dark terminal line. Both of these were described from nearby southwestern British Columbia. You can see pics of the name bearing types here
and here


On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 1:39 AM <tlpyle@...> wrote:

Well, Kelly, this one is a challenge! But I think you were right in the first place, that it is an Echo Azure.

My dictum about "any spots distal of the mesial band" being Icaricia only applies to individuals that might be taken for Glaucopsyche, which this one would not. Actually, ALL the blues (I think) have maculation distal of the mesial band EXCEPT for silveries; so perhaps I should have framed that in the opposite terms. I can see why Stewart would think this a Boisduval's, given the state of the mesial band of spots; but:

the field mark that most says "Celastrina" to me about this one is the long vertical dash in the cell, a classic azure marking. Also, the submarginal spots almost suggest chevrons, which azures generally display. I suspect your Johnson's Prairie puddlers were also azures.

Pelham? Norbert? Thoughts?

As always, specimens solve the issue!

Bob

 


On 2022-06-22 10:27 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval's Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval's Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn't think it was a Boisduval's Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn't believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles' words from yesterday, "If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia." I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I'd appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson's Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson's Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I'll know what I'm looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 



--
Norbert Kondla
Calgary, Alberta, Canada  (elevation 1060 metres asl)


Re: Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

tlpyle@...
 

Well, Kelly, this one is a challenge! But I think you were right in the first place, that it is an Echo Azure.

My dictum about "any spots distal of the mesial band" being Icaricia only applies to individuals that might be taken for Glaucopsyche, which this one would not. Actually, ALL the blues (I think) have maculation distal of the mesial band EXCEPT for silveries; so perhaps I should have framed that in the opposite terms. I can see why Stewart would think this a Boisduval's, given the state of the mesial band of spots; but:

the field mark that most says "Celastrina" to me about this one is the long vertical dash in the cell, a classic azure marking. Also, the submarginal spots almost suggest chevrons, which azures generally display. I suspect your Johnson's Prairie puddlers were also azures.

Pelham? Norbert? Thoughts?

As always, specimens solve the issue!

Bob

 


On 2022-06-22 10:27 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval's Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval's Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn't think it was a Boisduval's Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn't believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles' words from yesterday, "If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia." I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I'd appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson's Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson's Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I'll know what I'm looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 


Help identifying a blue from June 2019, Olympia Airport

mcallisters4
 

I was using inaturalist to explore locations where Silvery Blues and Boisduval’s Blues had been reported in prairies of south Puget Sound. I looked at the photo linked below and saw that it had initially been identified as a Boisduval’s Blue (ssp.blackmorei). I didn’t think it was a Boisduval’s Blue and thought it was an Echo Azure. Stewart Wechsler pointed out reasons why he didn’t believe it to be an Echo Azure and I think Stewart is right. Noting Bob Pyles’ words from yesterday, “If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia.” I believe Stewart Wechsler was probably right in his initial identification of this butterfly as Icaricia. I’d appreciate feedback on this one. I remember seeing many blues that looked like this one, puddling near Johnson’s Prairie on Joint Base Lewis-McChord, many years ago. The ventral hind wing spots have poorly defined (not very white) halos and the dark centers are quite large relative to the light halos. I was totally confused by the ones near Johnson’s Prairie. It will be nice, for me, to settle this so I’ll know what I’m looking at next time.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52166801318/in/dateposted-public/

 

 


Re: FOY Tiger Swallowtail in Seattle

Stewart Wechsler
 

Carlolyn, 

It is good to get your urban Western Tiger Swallowtail record!  I am finding them later than usual this year in my West Seattle Lincoln Park, and in smaller numbers than usual for mid-June.  I generally find them in more urbanized areas later than relatively natural areas, such as Lincoln Park.  Late yesterday afternoon I showed a friend a spot where every year they regularly, and repeatedly, perch and fly in the last of the day's good sun, as the sun climbs from covering the road to the tree tops, to only touching the upper parts of the cedars and doug-firs before sunset, through most of their flight season, but we didn't see any there, and I haven't seen any there on the few days I've now checked.

-Stewart

On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 7:32 PM Sue Orlowski <sueosp1@...> wrote:
Good for you. I saw my first Lorquin Admiral today.
Sue 


On Jun 21, 2022, at 6:55 PM, Carolyn H via groups.io <coheberlein=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

I saw my first Tiger Swallowtail today at my home in the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle.
It is about 3 weeks later than other years!


Re: western Washington Silver-spotted Skipper

Stewart Wechsler
 

Thanks Bob!

-Stewart

On Tue, Jun 21, 2022 at 10:39 PM <tlpyle@...> wrote:

Stewart, that's a really good record! We really don't have many records for the WWA-resident E. clarus!

The other ones you want to watch for are the Bramble Green Hairstreak, the Northern Cloudy-wing, and even maybe the Acmon Blue!

Go get 'em!

Bob

 


On 2022-06-21 9:21 pm, Stewart Wechsler wrote:

Made it to Harstene Island in the Puget Sound today, north of Olympia and east of the base of the Kitsap Peninsula, where a friend, Manzanita Bill, was keen on seeing the Hairy Manzanitas - Arctostaphylos columbiana that grew there.  I said if the Manzanitas were unusual for the larger area, that other plants should grow with it that were unusual for the greater area.  When we explored around the Manzanita, and later exploring other spots where we stopped, I was pleased to find a fair amount of Hosackia / Lotus crassifolius - Big Deervetch, a species with a very spotty distribution in western Washington, which I knew to be a host plant to 2 - 3 rarer butterflies for western Washington.  Later, when we got to an almost boggy area without sphagnum moss, I spotted a Silver-spotted Skipper, I quickly remembered that it was one of those butterflies that hosted on Big Deervetch!  My friend, who collected butterflies in S. California as a kid, was excited to see it too.  Common where, and when, I grew up on Long Island, New York in the 60's, I don't clearly remember seeing any Silver-spotted Skippers in western Washington, but I could have seen one or two 15 - 20 years ago.
 
Now I have to remember the other species that host on Big Deervetch.
 
-Stewart


Re: Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

tlpyle@...
 

Don't count on it, Kelly. Caitlin and I were rudely surprised by one such distinction we thought we'd made for the Field Guide! Yes, the margins are helpful, and yes, the color on average differs such that you can often distinguish them on the wing, when fresh. BUT...wear, sun, sex, variation, etc. make the dorsal distinction sometimes unreliable.

The best rule is, just don't count on dorsals for blues. Go for the undersides. If you see ANY maculation distal from the mesial band of spots, it is Icaricia. Silveries have only the one band of spots, ever, and as Caitlin says, it tends to be sharper, with the black iris usually large than the white ring.

A major study of these species found that when both of them are present and there are two or more lupines, they tend to concentrate on different ones. If only one species of lupine is present, they will share, but it's not their preference. I can find the reference for that if you wish.

Bob P.

 


On 2022-06-21 11:30 pm, mcallisters4 wrote:

Thanks Caitlin. The butterfly in the first picture struck me as a vibrant shiny blue and I thought it was likely a Silvery Blue. It was also some distance away from the larger patches of sickle-keeled lupine (not sure that means anything since Silvery Blues are probably using it as much as the Puget Blues). So, it was only after I had the pictures on my computer that I could see enough of the ventral hind wing to know it was a Puget Blue. I guess I'm feeling uncomfortable about the highly variable hues of blue, in males, being very useful to differentiate these two species. Maybe I'll feel differently after more experience.

 

Kelly

 

From: NorWestLeps@groups.io <NorWestLeps@groups.io> On Behalf Of Caitlin LaBar
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 11:22 PM
To: NorWestLeps@groups.io
Subject: Re: [NorWestLeps] Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

 

Yes those are all icarioides blackmorei. Male Silvery Blues don't have much of a brown edge between the blue and the wing fringe, while icarioides almost always have a noticeable brown margin, and blackmorei in particular can have a very wide margin, I've seen up to a third of the wing, making them look almost like a female.

As to color tint, icarioides is usually a dusty lavender while lygdamus has a bright glint (i.e. silvery), but photo angle can affect that, such as your first Flickr photo that looks super bright. It has a wide brown margin though and you can see enough of the ventral to make out the fuzziness of icarioides rather than more sharp spots on lygdamus.

 

Puget blues are definitely known from all over Rocky Prairie but I don't know what the most recent records are.

 

Caitlin 

--

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 


Re: Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

mcallisters4
 

Thanks Caitlin. The butterfly in the first picture struck me as a vibrant shiny blue and I thought it was likely a Silvery Blue. It was also some distance away from the larger patches of sickle-keeled lupine (not sure that means anything since Silvery Blues are probably using it as much as the Puget Blues). So, it was only after I had the pictures on my computer that I could see enough of the ventral hind wing to know it was a Puget Blue. I guess I’m feeling uncomfortable about the highly variable hues of blue, in males, being very useful to differentiate these two species. Maybe I’ll feel differently after more experience.

 

Kelly

 

From: NorWestLeps@groups.io <NorWestLeps@groups.io> On Behalf Of Caitlin LaBar
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2022 11:22 PM
To: NorWestLeps@groups.io
Subject: Re: [NorWestLeps] Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

 

Yes those are all icarioides blackmorei. Male Silvery Blues don’t have much of a brown edge between the blue and the wing fringe, while icarioides almost always have a noticeable brown margin, and blackmorei in particular can have a very wide margin, I’ve seen up to a third of the wing, making them look almost like a female.

As to color tint, icarioides is usually a dusty lavender while lygdamus has a bright glint (i.e. silvery), but photo angle can affect that, such as your first Flickr photo that looks super bright. It has a wide brown margin though and you can see enough of the ventral to make out the fuzziness of icarioides rather than more sharp spots on lygdamus.

 

Puget blues are definitely known from all over Rocky Prairie but I don’t know what the most recent records are.

 

Caitlin 

--

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Re: Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

Caitlin LaBar
 

Yes those are all icarioides blackmorei. Male Silvery Blues don’t have much of a brown edge between the blue and the wing fringe, while icarioides almost always have a noticeable brown margin, and blackmorei in particular can have a very wide margin, I’ve seen up to a third of the wing, making them look almost like a female.
As to color tint, icarioides is usually a dusty lavender while lygdamus has a bright glint (i.e. silvery), but photo angle can affect that, such as your first Flickr photo that looks super bright. It has a wide brown margin though and you can see enough of the ventral to make out the fuzziness of icarioides rather than more sharp spots on lygdamus.

Puget blues are definitely known from all over Rocky Prairie but I don’t know what the most recent records are.

Caitlin 
--

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie

mcallisters4
 

I spent some time, yesterday, trying to photograph blues on the sickle-keeled lupines at West Rocky Prairie in Thurston County. I got several dozen pictures of blues. The only views of ventral hind wings suggested that the only blues I was seeing were Puget Blues (Icaricia icarioides blackmorei). I Hs field notes that indicated I had seen Puget Blues at West Rocky Prairie in 2004 but I can’t find any pictures from those observations so I was feeling a bit uncertain. Perhaps others have seen the species there recently (Cheryl Schultz has, I believe). I noticed the inaturalist didn’t have any records at that particular prairie. I put 4 of my photos in my Flickr collection if anyone wants to have a look and critique my identifications. If anyone has tips on identifying Puget Blues from Silvery Blues based solely on a dorsal view, I’d love to hear them. The various descriptions of shades of blue don’t help me much. Guess I need some kind of color chart to help me with descriptors like cerulean blue (I’ll check my Crayola 64 pack).

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/29002564@N08/52163407942/in/dateposted-public/

 

 


Re: western Washington Silver-spotted Skipper

tlpyle@...
 

Stewart, that's a really good record! We really don't have many records for the WWA-resident E. clarus!

The other ones you want to watch for are the Bramble Green Hairstreak, the Northern Cloudy-wing, and even maybe the Acmon Blue!

Go get 'em!

Bob

 


On 2022-06-21 9:21 pm, Stewart Wechsler wrote:

Made it to Harstene Island in the Puget Sound today, north of Olympia and east of the base of the Kitsap Peninsula, where a friend, Manzanita Bill, was keen on seeing the Hairy Manzanitas - Arctostaphylos columbiana that grew there.  I said if the Manzanitas were unusual for the larger area, that other plants should grow with it that were unusual for the greater area.  When we explored around the Manzanita, and later exploring other spots where we stopped, I was pleased to find a fair amount of Hosackia / Lotus crassifolius - Big Deervetch, a species with a very spotty distribution in western Washington, which I knew to be a host plant to 2 - 3 rarer butterflies for western Washington.  Later, when we got to an almost boggy area without sphagnum moss, I spotted a Silver-spotted Skipper, I quickly remembered that it was one of those butterflies that hosted on Big Deervetch!  My friend, who collected butterflies in S. California as a kid, was excited to see it too.  Common where, and when, I grew up on Long Island, New York in the 60's, I don't clearly remember seeing any Silver-spotted Skippers in western Washington, but I could have seen one or two 15 - 20 years ago.
 
Now I have to remember the other species that host on Big Deervetch.
 
-Stewart

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