Topics

Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros

Tim Shoppa
 

Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE

Rich Seifert
 

On Aug 12, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@...> wrote:

Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.
Your improvement is the right solution. I always program an extra function key with just the “meat” of the exchange, and usually set it to send at a slightly slower speed (on CW). In some contests, I will have a few of these extra keys (e.g., Sweepstakes, where I might have to fill the number, or the section, or the checksum, etc.).

In fact you can have the request exchange be an F key, and your exchange be a Shift-F key of the same key (i.e., the S&P equivalent, if running). So, I hit F9 to ask “NR?”, and I hit Shift-F9 to send MY number. Repeat as necessary with other exchange elements.

Rich KE1B

ve3ki
 

Hmm ... maybe {SENTRSTONCE} and {SENTRSTCUTONCE} macros? That might not be foolproof - if you started a QSO and never completed it, the exchange in the next QSO might never be sent (of course, you could program another function key with {SENTRST} or {SENTRSTCUT} ... ;)

73,
Rich VE3KI


On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)
 
80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.
 
Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.
 
My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.
 
I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.
 
Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.
 
A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!
 
Tim N3QE

David G3YYD
 

Tim

 

On RTTY it is much better to send SN twice as 2Tone with its repeat string detection can put together 2 serial numbers and deliver often the correct one. So sending {SENDRST} {EXCH} {EXCH} is a better bet.

 

As for CW I use F2 as {SENDRSTCUT} {EXCH} as ESM sends F5 (his call)  then F2 and for NR repeat request F2 or F9 which is {EXCH} {EXCH} {EXCH}. I often use the F9 as I do not want to be asked again for NR so quicker to make sure.

 

73 David G3YYD M7T

 

From: N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io [mailto:N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io] On Behalf Of Tim Shoppa
Sent: 12 August 2019 15:01
To: N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io
Subject: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros

 

Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

 

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

 

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

 

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

 

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

 

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

 

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

 

Tim N3QE

VE9AA - Mike
 

It's a pet peeve of mine too Tim. Soooo many times over the W/E I sent either:
NR?
or
I guessed the number if I thought I had it...like:
?23 OR just 123?

and instead of getting back Rrrrr Or 123 123
I got the whole mycall ( I know my call and have sent their call), then 5NN, then I hear (crackle 23).
I could rip my hair out.hi hi hi.

All that being said, I don't feel like a lot of them are likely N1MM users.

That and leading cut zeros. Just send me the bleepin number already :')

hi hi

off pet peeve soapbox

Mike VE9AA

Ken McVie <kenmc@...>
 

Maybe look at this another way!!  Everybody in the contest is getting the same thing when they ask for a fill of the serial number, so does it really matter, everybody is equal?? And also, if everybody sets their function keys to do the same as you suggest, then everybody in the contest is still in the same position, ie: equal. So again, does it really make a difference??

73
Ken ZL4NR

On 13/08/2019 3:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE

Kenneth Grimm
 



On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:57 PM Ken McVie <kenmc@...> wrote:
Maybe look at this another way!!  Everybody in the contest is getting the same thing when they ask for a fill of the serial number, so does it really matter, everybody is equal?? And also, if everybody sets their function keys to do the same as you suggest, then everybody in the contest is still in the same position, ie: equal. So again, does it really make a difference??

73
Ken ZL4NR

Yes, I think it does make a difference.  The goal here, at least for me, isn't to gain some fractional advantage but to simplify a process.  When you are asked for a serial number sending 599 first only serves to complicate what the station needs....especially in conditions of severe QRN or QRM.  Sending ONLY what the person needs reduces the chance of error. 

73,
Ken - K4XL

On 13/08/2019 3:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE



--
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com

Vytenis LY5T
 

Sorry for slight offtopic.
Mike, IMO both cases your transmissions were suboptimal.
Instead of NR? you should have sent only ? since last transmission to you was number, mere ? will do the job and will be 50% shorter.
?23 or 123? is worse.Sending it back in difficult conditions may make a mess since other party may not receive your ? or other part of transmission. and it takes much longer to send. Again, short ? is enough to have number repeated. Full number will have to be sent either way.
IMO

Vytenis LY5T

danzee
 

Good Lord. Just program another key for the number only. 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Kenneth Grimm <grimm@...>
Date: 8/13/19 6:25 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io
Subject: Re: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros



On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:57 PM Ken McVie <kenmc@...> wrote:
Maybe look at this another way!!  Everybody in the contest is getting the same thing when they ask for a fill of the serial number, so does it really matter, everybody is equal?? And also, if everybody sets their function keys to do the same as you suggest, then everybody in the contest is still in the same position, ie: equal. So again, does it really make a difference??

73
Ken ZL4NR

Yes, I think it does make a difference.  The goal here, at least for me, isn't to gain some fractional advantage but to simplify a process.  When you are asked for a serial number sending 599 first only serves to complicate what the station needs....especially in conditions of severe QRN or QRM.  Sending ONLY what the person needs reduces the chance of error. 

73,
Ken - K4XL

On 13/08/2019 3:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE



--
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com

Jan
 

I second this

Op 13-8-2019 om 13:21 schreef danzee via Groups.Io:
Good Lord. Just program another key for the number only. 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Kenneth Grimm <grimm@...>
Date: 8/13/19 6:25 AM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros



On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:57 PM Ken McVie <kenmc@...> wrote:
Maybe look at this another way!!  Everybody in the contest is getting the same thing when they ask for a fill of the serial number, so does it really matter, everybody is equal?? And also, if everybody sets their function keys to do the same as you suggest, then everybody in the contest is still in the same position, ie: equal. So again, does it really make a difference??

73
Ken ZL4NR

Yes, I think it does make a difference.  The goal here, at least for me, isn't to gain some fractional advantage but to simplify a process.  When you are asked for a serial number sending 599 first only serves to complicate what the station needs....especially in conditions of severe QRN or QRM.  Sending ONLY what the person needs reduces the chance of error. 

73,
Ken - K4XL

On 13/08/2019 3:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE



--
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com

-- 
____________________________________________________
my dxspider clusters running on a raspberry pi:  
pa4jj-2 83.162.186.242 port 7300
pa4jj-3 83.162.186.242 port 7388

Kenneth Grimm
 



On Tue, Aug 13, 2019 at 7:21 AM danzee via Groups.Io <k2ywe=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
Good Lord. Just program another key for the number only. 

Well, that is precisely what I've done and I think that is also what Tim, N3QE, said that he has done.  I think the request is still a valid one.

73,
Ken - K4XL

 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Kenneth Grimm <grimm@...>
Date: 8/13/19 6:25 AM (GMT-05:00)
Subject: Re: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros



On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:57 PM Ken McVie <kenmc@...> wrote:
Maybe look at this another way!!  Everybody in the contest is getting the same thing when they ask for a fill of the serial number, so does it really matter, everybody is equal?? And also, if everybody sets their function keys to do the same as you suggest, then everybody in the contest is still in the same position, ie: equal. So again, does it really make a difference??

73
Ken ZL4NR

Yes, I think it does make a difference.  The goal here, at least for me, isn't to gain some fractional advantage but to simplify a process.  When you are asked for a serial number sending 599 first only serves to complicate what the station needs....especially in conditions of severe QRN or QRM.  Sending ONLY what the person needs reduces the chance of error. 

73,
Ken - K4XL

On 13/08/2019 3:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE



--
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com



--
Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com

Ted Bryant
 

YES!! 

 

In addition, rather than messing with reprogramming the ESM sequence, simply ask the developers to change the default message keys to reflect the more efficient operation that you desire.  Give users an example to go by.  Education is the key to solving this.

 

73, Ted W4NZ

 

 

From: N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io [mailto:N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io] On Behalf Of danzee via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2019 7:21 AM
To: N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io
Subject: Re: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros

 

Good Lord. Just program another key for the number only. 

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

-------- Original message --------

From: Kenneth Grimm <grimm@...>

Date: 8/13/19 6:25 AM (GMT-05:00)

To: N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io

Subject: Re: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros

 

 

 

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:57 PM Ken McVie <kenmc@...> wrote:

Maybe look at this another way!!  Everybody in the contest is getting the same thing when they ask for a fill of the serial number, so does it really matter, everybody is equal?? And also, if everybody sets their function keys to do the same as you suggest, then everybody in the contest is still in the same position, ie: equal. So again, does it really make a difference??

73
Ken ZL4NR

 

Yes, I think it does make a difference.  The goal here, at least for me, isn't to gain some fractional advantage but to simplify a process.  When you are asked for a serial number sending 599 first only serves to complicate what the station needs....especially in conditions of severe QRN or QRM.  Sending ONLY what the person needs reduces the chance of error. 

 

73,

Ken - K4XL

 

On 13/08/2019 3:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote:

Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

 

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

 

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

 

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

 

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

 

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

 

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

 

Tim N3QE

 



--

Ken - K4XL
BoatAnchor Manual Archive
BAMA - http://bama.edebris.com

 

Keep in mind that not all participants are using N1MM+ either.

Modifying the N1MM+ macro set will only affect a subset of operators in
any given event and then only those who apply the new macros.

Personally, I would not want to see the F2 key modified. What happens
if it automatically only sends SN on the second and subsequent press but
the running op asked for "ALL AGN"? Far better is to educate ops on the
proper use of one of the extra F keys for only sending the SN.

MHO

73, Nate, N0NB

--

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true."

Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819

Jim Stahl K8MR
 

I would like to make a plug for a different improvement to the F2 macro:

Provide an option to increment the serial number when the QSO is logged, rather than when the first keyboard entry is made for the next QSO.

Two issues here:

1. On CW, I often recognize a call at the end - hearing "BAI" jump out of a pileup I know who that is, and would rather immediately send "K4BAI" with my paddle and then hit F2, rather than waiting until I type in the call, thereby slowing down the pileup rhythm. As it is, I very often find myself hitting a random key before hitting F2 (having sent his call with the paddle), and then having to backspace to erase those letters. I find this situation happens much more often than a guy asking for a repeat of my number.

2. On SSB, where in a good pileup one talks faster than one types, you are staring at the previous number, and have to mentally increment the number you are going to give out.

I understand that in certain situations - where there may be two active radios - it may be better to have it as it is. But an option for "Increment Serial Number when QSO is Logged - YES / NO" would be a great improvement for us one radio at a time guys.

A Macro to send the previous QSO number, though not particularly important to me, would deal with the situation of QSO number repeats.


73  -  Jim  K8MR



-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@...>
To: N1MMLoggerPlus <N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2019 11:01 am
Subject: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros

Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE

Tim Shoppa
 

I should add.... I have observed when asking for serial number fills over the past decade, that the fraction of folks who send the "5NN then the serial" for every fill has gone from a few percent to circa 80%.

I think this percentage is ENTIRELY a measure of the N1MM market penetration and usage it's default macros. If you look at the logs submitted by various logger software, more than 50% of the logs are now made by N1MM. Now factor in that most of the N1MM logs are much larger than the onesy-twosy loggers, and probably 80% of QSO's are made with N1MM worldwide today.

In other words, it's because N1MM is so popular today, and the default F2 key macro sends 5NN before the exchange, that I observe 5NN being sent unnecessarily on almost every fill repeat. And I make a lot of fill repeat requests in every serial number contest!!! Yes I am a stickler for getting the serial number right.

Yes education can also be part of the solution too. But everybody could've optimized their macros for a serial number repeat, and hardly any did. 
 
It's because of N1MM's large market penetration, and the way everyone is using its default macros, that I feel N1MM's default F2 behavior and default macros can be part of the solution.

Tim N3QE

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:01 AM Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@...> wrote:
Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE

Peter Alterman
 

In such circumstances I simply hit the ESC button after the 'TU', (to confirm QSO) which suspends the macro and then use paddle to send the recognized callsign. No need for programming trickery. I do the same if I hear more than one signal replying to a CQ. Usually works for up to 3 QSOs before I have to go back to the full TU macro.
Regards,  Peter W2CDO 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: "Jim Stahl K8MR via Groups.Io" <jimk8mr@...>
Date: 8/13/19 8:51 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io
Subject: Re: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros

I would like to make a plug for a different improvement to the F2 macro:

Provide an option to increment the serial number when the QSO is logged, rather than when the first keyboard entry is made for the next QSO.

Two issues here:

1. On CW, I often recognize a call at the end - hearing "BAI" jump out of a pileup I know who that is, and would rather immediately send "K4BAI" with my paddle and then hit F2, rather than waiting until I type in the call, thereby slowing down the pileup rhythm. As it is, I very often find myself hitting a random key before hitting F2 (having sent his call with the paddle), and then having to backspace to erase those letters. I find this situation happens much more often than a guy asking for a repeat of my number.

2. On SSB, where in a good pileup one talks faster than one types, you are staring at the previous number, and have to mentally increment the number you are going to give out.

I understand that in certain situations - where there may be two active radios - it may be better to have it as it is. But an option for "Increment Serial Number when QSO is Logged - YES / NO" would be a great improvement for us one radio at a time guys.

A Macro to send the previous QSO number, though not particularly important to me, would deal with the situation of QSO number repeats.


73  -  Jim  K8MR



-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@...>
To: N1MMLoggerPlus <N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io>
Sent: Mon, Aug 12, 2019 11:01 am
Subject: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros

Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE

VE9AA - Mike
 

Like Tim and Ken, I too always have another key programmed with JUST the exchange. No 5NN ,no callsigns, mothers maiden name or hat size.

That's precisely Tims point.

Mike

Peter Alterman
 

Perhaps an alternative strategy would work. The default cw F key .mc file could be modified on the website to include a # repeat key. Then ops who simply use the generic F key files would have an alternative to the full repeat. A comment in the documentation as well might help.
Peter W2CDO 



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@...>
Date: 8/13/19 9:05 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: N1MMLoggerPlus@groups.io
Subject: Re: [N1MM+] Suggested improvement for serial number contest F2 macros

I should add.... I have observed when asking for serial number fills over the past decade, that the fraction of folks who send the "5NN then the serial" for every fill has gone from a few percent to circa 80%.

I think this percentage is ENTIRELY a measure of the N1MM market penetration and usage it's default macros. If you look at the logs submitted by various logger software, more than 50% of the logs are now made by N1MM. Now factor in that most of the N1MM logs are much larger than the onesy-twosy loggers, and probably 80% of QSO's are made with N1MM worldwide today.

In other words, it's because N1MM is so popular today, and the default F2 key macro sends 5NN before the exchange, that I observe 5NN being sent unnecessarily on almost every fill repeat. And I make a lot of fill repeat requests in every serial number contest!!! Yes I am a stickler for getting the serial number right.

Yes education can also be part of the solution too. But everybody could've optimized their macros for a serial number repeat, and hardly any did. 
 
It's because of N1MM's large market penetration, and the way everyone is using its default macros, that I feel N1MM's default F2 behavior and default macros can be part of the solution.

Tim N3QE

On Mon, Aug 12, 2019 at 11:01 AM Tim Shoppa <tshoppa@...> wrote:
Most serial number contests - for example WAE, WPX, etc - require a signal report and a serial number. So on CW, everyone has their F2 key setup to send 5NN and the serial number. Or maybe my call then TU then 5NN then the serial number (yes, a lot of guys have that on their S&P F2 macro!)

80%+ of the time I ask for a fill in a CW serial number contest, the guy hits F2 once or twice, and I get 5NN 1234 or maybe 5NN 1234 5NN 1234 or maybe N3QE TU 5NN 1234. Of course I don't need anything but the serial number but the guy only knows the F2 key so I get the full F2 message each time. Although there is some "synchronization value" in the 5NN, really all I want is the serial number and I just asked for the number to be repeated so I don't think there's any actual value in repeating 5NN each time. He sent 5NN the first time as required by the rules, I'm not asking for a fill of the RST, I'm asking for a fill of the serial number.

Now I do it a little different. I programmed a different function key just to repeat only the serial number. So I hit F6 and send the serial number only, or hit it twice and send it twice.

My suggested improvement, is that given these guys will never hit anything but F2, that after the first F2 send, that hitting the F2 button only send the serial number without the RST and without any callsigns or pleasantries.

I know this is programmatically a little weird and breaks some of the consistency of the F2 button. Maybe a N1MM macro expert can recommend a way to use existing macro functions to achieve the same end result, and we can make sure this way goes into all future "default macro setups" from now. For example, maybe {SENTRST} could be the default macro, and we could have a special rule that {SENTRST} is only ever sent once per contact.

Obviously some education could work instead. Since forever, they other op could configure a different function key just for a fill or a super-fill on the serial number. But after getting a record number of 5NN repeats this past weekend I'm dubious that education could reach every corner of the world.

A similar improvement would actually be even better in RTTY. Invariably if I ask for a repeat of a serial number in RTTY they send ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" when all I really wanted was the 1234. When it doesn't come through I ask again and they resend ".... N3QE N3QE TU 599 1234 N3QE" several more times. This could be so much more efficient!

Tim N3QE

Al - N1API
 

A good operator will know what the called or calling stations wants and respond accordingly.

For S&P in CW my working keys are F4 My call, and F2 exchange.  But I also programed F5 My call slowed down about 4 WPM, (which works great also when answering CQ's for operators not running 35 WPM or so), and also F6 which is my exchange slowed down twice also about 4 WPM slower there is also a longer space between the {EXCH}  {EXCH} to either distinguish between the reports or time to hit ESC to only sent the reply once.

Works great for me.

Al

Lu Romero - W4LT
 

Ummmm… When sent a ?, I hit the equals <=> key. It's really smart! It sends the last thing I sent. Works both in S&P and Run. I have programmed individual F Keys with individual parts of an exchange and don't find it useful (Now... What key do I hit to send just the serial... the state... the check... the class... etc.) 

The equals <=> key works for any portion of a repeat: In S&P: "W4?" (I hit the = key) In Run (Not a big gun... Have the Big Gun switch off): "Agn" or "?" (I hit the = key)

No thinking involved.  My feeble brain has enough to think about dealing with QRM/QRN, multiple callers, lid behavior, the other radio when in SO2R etc.

I'm a big fan of the Equals <=> key!. If I really want to get fancy and have the mental capacity to do it, I use that funny looking thing to my right... Those expensive paddles I rarely use in a contest anymore thanks to the automation.

Lu - W4LT