Topics

Strange Fading effects

Thomas Scheelen
 

Hi guys, 

my name is Thomas and iam from Heidelberg/germany. 

Iam in weather reception for ages. Beginning with a circular antenna for Noaa APT, following with a direct readout station for HRPT. 

Since 2006 iam subscribed to meteocast. It was always pretty easy to receive the data from Astra and Eurobird9, but the switch to Eutelsat 10 stopped working for me.

I  tried several dvb-s2 cards, but always with the same effect of heavy fading effects. 
In use is a 85cm Offset antenna and a standard universal lnb with high quality coax cable. 
The sight in Eutelsat directory is totally free of any obstacles. The antenna is about 10 m away from the house.  The cable is about 13m long. 
The actual card in use is a Technisat Dvb-s2 PCIe
with the BDA driver from eumetsat together with the BDA data tool. All is configured as recommended by eumetsat help pages. 

I get a quality of about 60% and no signal indication, but the signal fades dramatically from 0% to 60% The signal does not lock, or just a few seconds. 

As I mentioned i tried different components, always with that result.  All components were changed in different constellation, even the computer. 

If i connect the antenna cable to my tv (build in tuner), i get 100% signal and quality indicated, even on 11262.5.
All TV channels working fine, without artefacts or any interferences. 
I assume that's not comparable with a pc card, but it shows me at least that the signal is good. 

Not to forget... the telicast software and Eku client are not yet installed, because i guess without a locked signal.... no data to process. 

I have no further idea. Off course i should invest in a larger antenna and good receiver, but the fact that all component variations had no effect concerns me a bit.

I really hope anyone of you has a hint or idea. 

Kind Regards 
Thomas 

David J Taylor
 

Hi guys,

my name is Thomas and iam from Heidelberg/germany

Iam in weather reception for ages. Beginning with a circular antenna for Noaa APT, following with a direct readout station for HRPT

Since 2006 iam subscribed to meteocast. It was always pretty easy to receive the data from Astra and Eurobird9, but the switch to Eutelsat 10 stopped working for me.

I tried several dvb-s2 cards, but always with the same effect of heavy fading effects.
In use is a 85cm Offset antenna and a standard universal lnb with high quality coax cable.
The sight in Eutelsat directory is totally free of any obstacles. The antenna is about 10 m away from the house. The cable is about 13m long.
The actual card in use is a Technisat Dvb-s2 PCIe
with the BDA driver from eumetsat together with the BDA data tool. All is configured as recommended by eumetsat help pages.

I get a quality of about 60% and no signal indication, but the signal fades dramatically from 0% to 60% The signal does not lock, or just a few seconds.

As I mentioned i tried different components, always with that result. All components were changed in different constellation, even the computer.

If i connect the antenna cable to my tv (build in tuner), i get 100% signal and quality indicated, even on 11262.5.
All TV channels working fine, without artefacts or any interferences.
I assume that's not comparable with a pc card, but it shows me at least that the signal is good.

Not to forget.. the telicast software and Eku client are not yet installed, because i guess without a locked signal.... no data to process.

I have no further idea. Off course i should invest in a larger antenna and good receiver, but the fact that all component variations had no effect concerns me a bit.

I really hope anyone of you has a hint or idea.

Kind Regards
Thomas
====================================

Thomas,

Welcome to the group!

On this page, in the "Devices" section, you will find a list of devices supported for EUMETCast:

https://www.eumetsat.int/website/home/Data/DataDelivery/EUMETCast/ReceptionStationSetup/index.html


The TechniSat DVB-S2 PCIe is not listed by EUMETSAT, so may be unsuitable for the new DVB-S2 service. Perhaps this is the cause of your problem? There is one older card listed which may be suitable for the Basic Service alone, the TechniSat SkyStar 2 HD, and you might be able to find that second hand.

Otherwise there are three choices - network receiver, USB receiver, or PCIe card. They are listed on that page.

- Many people are using the Ayecka SR1 which can receive one transponder at a time, but only requires a network connection to your PC. Likely this means adding a second network card to your desktop PC, but a USB-Ethernet adapter also works. The Novra S300 also works well.

- For a USB direct connection, the TBS5927 works well, as does its older version (TBS5925) which you may be able to find second-hand. This also works on a single transponder at a time, so two boxes if you need data from both transponders.

- The TBS 6903 PCIe card has two receivers, and can therefore take both transponder 1 (BS, HVS-1) and transponder 2 (HVS-2) at the same time.

Someone on the group here may have any of these spare or for sale second-hand.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@...
Twitter: @gm8arv

Thomas Scheelen
 

Hi David,

thanks for the helpful informations.

The Skystar PCIe is listed, but as obsolete or just for basic service. There exist a PCI Version as well. I have one, but it makes no difference regarding the issue.

For the first time i will start with basic service.The limited antenna size is one reason.

I guess the receiver isn't the cause. I tried 4 different cards with no change in behavior.

Today I'll get an inverto black lnb. As far as i know, that works well for several users..
Since ES9A has strong output power i guessed it may produces some interferences.

To be honest i hoped that issue is already known. It's pretty confusing that the TV has no problems.

Thomas

PS
I'm open for offers for used receivers from group members.

Am 30. Oktober 2019 09:21:20 schrieb "David J Taylor via Groups.Io" <gm8arv=yahoo.co.uk@groups.io>:

Hi guys,


my name is Thomas and iam from Heidelberg/germany


Iam in weather reception for ages. Beginning with a circular antenna for
Noaa APT, following with a direct readout station for HRPT


Since 2006 iam subscribed to meteocast. It was always pretty heasy to receive
the data from Astra and Eurobird9, but the switch to Eutelsat 10 stopped
working for me.


I tried several dvb-s2 cards, but always with the same effect of heavy
fading effects.
In use is a 85cm Offset antenna and a standard universal lnb with high
quality coax cable.
The sight in Eutelsat directory is totally free of any obstacles. The
antenna is about 10 m away from the house. The cable is about 13m long.
The actual card in use is a Technisat Dvb-s2 PCIe
with the BDA driver from eumetsat together with the BDA data tool. All is
configured as recommended by eumetsat help pages.


I get a quality of about 60% and no signal indication, but the signal fades
dramatically from 0% to 60% The signal does not lock, or just a few seconds.


As I mentioned i tried different components, always with that result. All
components were changed in different constellation, even the computer.


If i connect the antenna cable to my tv (build in tuner), i get 100% signal
and quality indicated, even on 11262.5.
All TV channels working fine, without artefacts or any interferences.
I assume that's not comparable with a pc card, but it shows me at least that
the signal is good.


Not to forget.. the telicast software and Eku client are not yet installed,
because i guess without a locked signal.... no data to process.


I have no further idea. Off course i should invest in a larger antenna and
good receiver, but the fact that all component variations had no effect
concerns me a bit.


I really hope anyone of you has a hint or idea.


Kind Regards
Thomas
====================================


Thomas,


Welcome to the group!


On this page, in the "Devices" section, you will find a list of devices
supported for EUMETCast:


https://www.eumetsat.int/website/home/Data/DataDelivery/EUMETCast/ReceptionStationSetup/index.html




The TechniSat DVB-S2 PCIe is not listed by EUMETSAT, so may be unsuitable
for the new DVB-S2 service. Perhaps this is the cause of your problem?
There is one older card listed which may be suitable for the Basic Service
alone, the TechniSat SkyStar 2 HD, and you might be able to find that second
hand.


Otherwise there are three choices - network receiver, USB receiver, or PCIe
card. They are listed on that page.


- Many people are using the Ayecka SR1 which can receive one transponder at
a time, but only requires a network connection to your PC. Likely this
means adding a second network card to your desktop PC, but a USB-Ethernet
adapter also works. The Novra S300 also works well.


- For a USB direct connection, the TBS5927 works well, as does its older
version (TBS5925) which you may be able to find second-hand. This also
works on a single transponder at a time, so two boxes if you need data from
both transponders.


- The TBS 6903 PCIe card has two receivers, and can therefore take both
transponder 1 (BS, HVS-1) and transponder 2 (HVS-2) at the same time.


Someone on the group here may have any of these spare or for sale
second-hand.


Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@...
Twitter: @gm8arv








----------------------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail was checked for spam by the freeware edition of CleanMail.
The freeware edition is restricted to personal and non-commercial use.
You can remove this notice by purchasing a commercial license:
http://antispam.byteplant.com/products/cleanmail/index.html

geojohnt@...
 

Hello Thomas,

You have an interesting problem that we do not seem to have heard of before.

Firstly there are several users in this group using an 85 cm dish and getting quite good SNR.
So that's a good starting place.

Inverto Black Ultra LNB is a good choice and many of us use them.

There are two satellites at 9 degrees east - 'co-located' - 9 A is Ka-band so no problem, and 9 B is Ku-band but its transmissions start at 11.727 GHz V, so no interference to 'our signal' from 10 A.
But you are right, its output power is higher than 10 A.

Best wishes,
John.

+++++++++++++++++

In a message dated 30/10/2019 10:07:37 GMT Standard Time, privat@... writes:

Today I'll get an inverto black lnb. As far as i know, that works well for
several users..
Since ES9A has strong output power i guessed it may produces some
interferences.

David J Taylor
 

Hi David,

thanks for the helpful informations.
[]
To be honest i hoped that issue is already known. It's pretty confusing
that the TV has no problems.

Thomas
====================================

Thomas,

The only time when I've heard of a similar issue is when you have two receivers trying to drive the single LNB over the same cable, and the two 22 kHz signals (to switch to high band - 11700-12750 MHz) are not on quite the same frequency and beat with each other, causing the LNB to switch to low-band occasionally. This should not be happening with EUMETCast as it uses low band frequencies (11262, 11378 MHz).

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@...
Twitter: @gm8arv

Ernst Lobsiger
 

Thomas,

Are you sure your receiver/driver can handle VCM?  This is necessary for EUMETCast.
Maybe TV transponders you see just use CCM. (which is much easier to receive)?!

Ernst

Thomas Scheelen
 

Hi John, 

yes its pretty rare indeed. Today I made the fault to realign the dish. I was struggling to find ES10A again. I think know i know each single satellite between 20 and 3 degrees. 

And yes..... ES9B is strong.... 


Finally i found it, but with the same results. 

What me also makes wonder is that the Ip data tool does not lock to the sat signal once the signal i stable (for few seconds) 

I guess  locking is mandatory to start data streams?! 

I watch out for a lager antenna know, even when it will not solve the actually issue. 

But a stronger signal and less S/N can only be positive... 😊

Thanks 

Thomas

Am 30. Oktober 2019 11:54:15 schrieb "geojohnt via Groups.Io" <geojohnt@...>:

Hello Thomas,

You have an interesting problem that we do not seem to have heard of before.

Firstly there are several users in this group using an 85 cm dish and getting quite good SNR.
So that's a good starting place.

Inverto Black Ultra LNB is a good choice and many of us use them.

There are two satellites at 9 degrees east - 'co-located' - 9 A is Ka-band so no problem, and 9 B is Ku-band but its transmissions start at 11.727 GHz V, so no interference to 'our signal' from 10 A.
But you are right, its output power is higher than 10 A.

Best wishes,
John.

+++++++++++++++++

In a message dated 30/10/2019 10:07:37 GMT Standard Time, privat@... writes:

Today I'll get an inverto black lnb. As far as i know, that works well for
several users..
Since ES9A has strong output power i guessed it may produces some
interferences.

Thomas Scheelen
 

Hi Ernst, 

ups? That's really new for me. I thought VCM is only needed for High data rate on transponder 2?

Will i need it actually need for basic too? 

Eumetsat supported skystar 2 cards and i think they didn't support VCM. 

But as ever.... i am always willing to learn.. 🤔😊

Best Regards 
Thomas 

Am 30. Oktober 2019 22:43:26 schrieb "Ernst Lobsiger" <ernst.lobsiger@...>:

Thomas,

Are you sure your receiver/driver can handle VCM?  This is necessary for EUMETCast.
Maybe TV transponders you see just use CCM. (which is much easier to receive)?!

Ernst

Ernst Lobsiger
 

Thomas,

If you have a SkyStar 2 eXpress HD (the PCI-Express card you have to power with a separate cable) then it's possible to get BASIC service ONLY even if the card is not really VCM capable. But this only works with CrazyCat drivers and I only did it under GNU/Linux where I demonstrated a 40Euro Eumetcast receiver. So readers of this list that did it under Windows should be able to give you a hand. If you get it working the SkyStar 2 eXpress HD is a good BASIC receiver.

Ernst

Cornish Man
 

Having trouble with my 110cm Dish. I am on the lookout for a cheap 120cm one.

hopefully it will solve the problem of being disconnected all the time and have to click on reset on the page

On Thursday, 31 October 2019, 20:16:45 GMT, Ernst Lobsiger <ernst.lobsiger@...> wrote:


Thomas,

If you have a SkyStar 2 eXpress HD (the PCI-Express card you have to power with a separate cable) then it's possible to get BASIC service ONLY even if the card is not really VCM capable. But this only works with CrazyCat drivers and I only did it under GNU/Linux where I demonstrated a 40Euro Eumetcast receiver. So readers of this list that did it under Windows should be able to give you a hand. If you get it working the SkyStar 2 eXpress HD is a good BASIC receiver.

Ernst

Thomas Scheelen
 

Ernst, 

that's a good hint indeed. I am going to try crazycat drivers. 

Just to clarify a few things things for me. 

While on DVBS1  the standard drivers and tools of technisat worked well. 
Especially the IP Data tool. 

Is it mandatory to use the BDADataEx on Windows, or will the standard ip tool work as well? The included drivers and tools are also for DVB-S2. 

To be honest i still not understand the difference between S2 and S if we talk about Eumetcast. 

I thankful for a short explanation... 👀🤔

Greetings 
Thomas 




Am 1. November 2019 01:29:13 schrieb "Cornish Man via Groups.Io" <cornishman68@...>:

Having trouble with my 110cm Dish. I am on the lookout for a cheap 120cm one.

hopefully it will solve the problem of being disconnected all the time and have to click on reset on the page

On Thursday, 31 October 2019, 20:16:45 GMT, Ernst Lobsiger <ernst.lobsiger@...> wrote:


Thomas,

If you have a SkyStar 2 eXpress HD (the PCI-Express card you have to power with a separate cable) then it's possible to get BASIC service ONLY even if the card is not really VCM capable. But this only works with CrazyCat drivers and I only did it under GNU/Linux where I demonstrated a 40Euro Eumetcast receiver. So readers of this list that did it under Windows should be able to give you a hand. If you get it working the SkyStar 2 eXpress HD is a good BASIC receiver.

Ernst

David J Taylor
 

Ernst,

that's a good hint indeed. I am going to try crazycat drivers.

Just to clarify a few things things for me.

While on DVBS1 the standard drivers and tools of technisat worked well.
Especially the IP Data tool.

Is it mandatory to use the BDADataEx on Windows, or will the standard ip tool work as well? The included drivers and tools are also for DVB-S2.

To be honest i still not understand the difference between S2 and S if we talk about Eumetcast.

I thankful for a short explanation... ????????

Greetings
Thomas
==================================

Thomas,

With the TBS software, some of us have found that it crashed (inconsistently), but for others it works correctly. Here, it crashes, so I've used the BDADataEx software without any problems.

The difference with transponder 1 is that it can send two standards of modulation, one for the Basic Service, and a different, higher-rate scheme for the High Volume 1 service. The DVB receiver must be able to switch between the two schemes to receive data correctly. With some receiver software (e.g. BDADataEx) you can disable reception of the higher volume service, so that the BS isn't affected by low signal levels which would cause the HVS to be received with errors. Both the TBS and BDADataEx programs allow this.

So the difference is: S is a fixed rate per transmission, S2 allows multiple rates and error correction streams within the single transmission. Hence VCM - variable coding and modulation - used on transponder 1.

Does that help?

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@...
Twitter: @gm8arv

Ernst Lobsiger
 

Thomas,

If you go to the page

https://www.eumetsat.int/website/home/Data/DataDelivery/EUMETCast/ReceptionStationSetup/index.html

Under "Devices" at the very bottom you find the Technisat
SkyStar 2 eXpress HD card that works for BASIC service only.

"The following device with STV0903BAC demodulator chip support only 8PSK MODCODs"

At first EUMETSAT didn't beleave it's possible but then they
even wrote an installation and setup guide. This paper is
dated 2015 but it might still work. Make sure you have the
exact card depicted, use BDADataEx (David can possibly hint
where you find the latest version) and also use the CrazyCat
special SS2XPFIX that enables the demodulator to work the
way EUMETSAT never dreamed of. As I said before: I only
did it under GNU/Linux where what SS2XPFIX does was possibly
integrated in the CrazyCat driver. Under Windows it seems to
work with standard card drivers but enabled with SS2XPFIX.

DVB-S2 is *very* different from DVB-S (but still includes it).
ACM/VCM is one of the most advanced features of DVB-S2 ...

Regards
Ernst

P.S. If you search the list for things like STV0903BAC or
SkyStar eXpress and SS2XPFIX you might find related posts.

David J Taylor
 

Thomas,
[]
Make sure you have the exact card depicted, use BDADataEx (David can possibly hint where you find the latest version) and also use the CrazyCat special SS2XPFIX that enables the demodulator to work the way EUMETSAT never dreamed of.
[]
Regards
Ernst
=====================================

Thanks, Ernst. Downloads are on the EUMETCast Web site, although I don't know their vintage:

ftp://ftp.eumetsat.int/pub/OPS/out/user/EUMETCast_Support/EUMETCast_Licence_cd/Windows/DVB_devices/TOOLS/


I had not heard of SS2XPFIX (sounds like a version for Windows XP?), but EUMETSAT say it can be downloaded here:

ftp://ftp.eumetsat.int/pub/OPS/out/user/EUMETCast_Support/EUMETCast_Licence_cd/Windows/DVB_devices/SKYSTAR2_HD/

Both URLs work here right now, and the files are dated 2019 - if that means anything.

For all the bother of using the older cards, perhaps getting a second-hand TBS6903 (or even TBS6983) may be the better approach.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@...
Twitter: @gm8arv

Ernst Lobsiger
 

David and Thomas,

The EUMETSAT Setup Guide is for Windows 7 (not XP)

<Cite>
3.6 Running SS2XPFIX
SS2XPFIX is a small console utility created by CrazyCat which is setting one bit in BDA demodulator register.
</Cite>

IIRC this did the trick to enable the use of the STV0903BAC demodulator to receive at least
the BASIC MODCOD of the Transport Stream (TS) without really being fully VCM capable.
Not sure something like that was integrated in later BDADataEx versions (I doubt it).

Cheers,
Ernst

Thomas Scheelen
 

Good morning, 

first off all i wanna thank you for all the great informations and assistance. You brought me a lot further. 

As recommended by David I ordered an used 5927 which i found for a reasonable price. 
Additional i purchased a new dish with a diameter of 125cm. Hope my Neighbor does not think E.T. has landed.. :-) 

I expect a lot better performance in reception, but also new challenges. 

With the present equipment no improvements seems achievable. 

Greetings 
Thomas 



Am 1. November 2019 15:37:59 schrieb "Ernst Lobsiger" <ernst.lobsiger@...>:

David and Thomas,

The EUMETSAT Setup Guide is for Windows 7 (not XP)

<Cite>
3.6 Running SS2XPFIX
SS2XPFIX is a small console utility created by CrazyCat which is setting one bit in BDA demodulator register.
</Cite>

IIRC this did the trick to enable the use of the STV0903BAC demodulator to receive at least
the BASIC MODCOD of the Transport Stream (TS) without really being fully VCM capable.
Not sure something like that was integrated in later BDADataEx versions (I doubt it).

Cheers,
Ernst

Thomas Scheelen
 

Hi, 

now i got the 5927 and what shall I say? Everything is fine, even with the 85cm dish. 
I have 11DB s/n and almost no errors or lost of packets. 

I am curious how the 120cm dish will improve the whole thing. 

As iam still confused about the modcodes and hvs service, i use transponder 1 with all codes enabled

@David 
I had almost almost all eumetcast related tools registered some time ago. 

Do i need some upgrades and how much will those upgrades cost?

Kind Regards 
Thomas 



Am 4. November 2019 09:39:41 schrieb "Thomas Scheelen" <privat@...>:

Good morning, 

first off all i wanna thank you for all the great informations and assistance. You brought me a lot further. 

As recommended by David I ordered an used 5927 which i found for a reasonable price. 
Additional i purchased a new dish with a diameter of 125cm. Hope my Neighbor does not think E.T. has landed.. :-) 

I expect a lot better performance in reception, but also new challenges. 

With the present equipment no improvements seems achievable. 

Greetings 
Thomas 



Am 1. November 2019 15:37:59 schrieb "Ernst Lobsiger" <ernst.lobsiger@...>:

David and Thomas,

The EUMETSAT Setup Guide is for Windows 7 (not XP)

<Cite>
3.6 Running SS2XPFIX
SS2XPFIX is a small console utility created by CrazyCat which is setting one bit in BDA demodulator register.
</Cite>

IIRC this did the trick to enable the use of the STV0903BAC demodulator to receive at least
the BASIC MODCOD of the Transport Stream (TS) without really being fully VCM capable.
Not sure something like that was integrated in later BDADataEx versions (I doubt it).

Cheers,
Ernst


David J Taylor
 

Hi,

now i got the 5927 and what shall I say? Everything is fine, even with the 85cm dish.
I have 11DB s/n and almost no errors or lost of packets.

I am curious how the 120cm dish will improve the whole thing.

As iam still confused about the modcodes and hvs service, i use transponder 1 with all codes enabled

@David
I had almost almost all eumetcast related tools registered some time ago.

Do i need some upgrades and how much will those upgrades cost?

Kind Regards
Thomas
================================

Thomas,

That's excellent news about the receiver.

Yes, your software is over 6 years old, and there have been updates - quite a few of them - to cover many of the new services from EUMETSAT. There are upgrades available:

MSG Toolset Plus upgrade:
https://order.shareit.com/product?vendorid=200278389&productid=300877399

HRPT Toolset Plus upgrade:
https://order.shareit.com/product?vendorid=200278389&productid=300878427

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor@...
Twitter: @gm8arv

geojohnt@...
 

Hello Thomas,

With a 120 cm dish you 'should' get around 2 dB better SNR with a correctly aligned dish.
Very important for HVS-1 services which have a much lower link margin level than BS.
Rain/snow signal attenuation reduces SNR but BS with its higher link margin level is not as badly effected as HVS-1 if the signal attenuation is high.

Best wishes,
John.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In a message dated 08/11/2019 10:46:32 GMT Standard Time, gm8arv@... writes:

now i got the 5927 and what shall I say? Everything is fine, even with the
85cm dish.
I have 11DB s/n and almost no errors or lost of packets.

I am curious how the 120cm dish will improve the whole thing.

Thomas Scheelen
 

John, 

unfortunately i had no time yet to install the new dish. The basic service is very stable indeed.Even in heavy cloud conditions with rain the s/n dropped just 0,5 db. 

By the way... is it a good idea to mount the new dish on a diseqc motor? Could imagine that the repeat accuracy is not precise enough. 

Regards 

Am 8. November 2019 16:10:39 schrieb "geojohnt via Groups.Io" <geojohnt@...>:

Hello Thomas,

With a 120 cm dish you 'should' get around 2 dB better SNR with a correctly aligned dish.
Very important for HVS-1 services which have a much lower link margin level than BS.
Rain/snow signal attenuation reduces SNR but BS with its higher link margin level is not as badly effected as HVS-1 if the signal attenuation is high.

Best wishes,
John.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

In a message dated 08/11/2019 10:46:32 GMT Standard Time, gm8arv@... writes:

now i got the 5927 and what shall I say? Everything is fine, even with the
85cm dish.
I have 11DB s/n and almost no errors or lost of packets.

I am curious how the 120cm dish will improve the whole thing.