Topics

QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB


Ernst Lobsiger
 

Dear All

I have used a QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB for years. During this
summer I did again intensive testing with up to 4 TC receivers.
Only lately I discovered that the moment of starting a TC receiver
on one of the four cables can regularly produce missed packets
on the rest of the running TC receivers on the other three cables.

Has this been observed by other users that use a/this QUAD LNB?
Is this a problem of the multiswitch or some voltage regulator?
Can someone with electrical backgound comment on my 25m cables?
Is this a sign that it is about time to have this QUAD LNB replaced?


Best regards
Ernst

P.S.
It's well possible it has always been like that and I just didn't notice.


Ernst Lobsiger
 

Dear All

I attach an schematic layout of a typical QUAD LNB. The only difference
from a SINGLE or TWIN LNB is the multiswitch (matrix) at the right side.

SINGLE: 4 x 1
TWIN   : 4 x 2
QUAD  : 4 x 4

So the effect I observed lately should also be seen on a TWIN LNB.
Assuming you have e.g. a TWIN Inverto Black Ultra LNB with two TC
receivers of any kind (Router like SR1, TBS PCIe card or USB-box).
If a first receiver is running (e.g with BASIC + HVS-1) and you
now start and tune the second receiver (e.g. HVS-2), does this
produce a burst of missed packets on the first TC receiver?

If this is a problem of the multiswitch maybe someone uses an
external multiswitch and has observed a similar effect. Switching
on one channel would give a burst of missed packets on a running
TelliCast receiver on a different cable?

My four 25m cables run in a plastic tube of about 1'' diameter. But
they have shielding > 100dB and I cannot think of a DC powering of one
cable can affect IF frequencies in another cable. HAMs might comment.


Best regards
Ernst


Markus Kempf
 

Ernst, you could try an increased supply voltage for the lnb. Some tuners allow this setting. You can also measure the nominally 13/18V at the LNB. Too low a voltage could be a reason. Second guess is a bad capacitor in the lnb. Third guess a suboptimal circuit design of the switch matrix. I own a single Inverto black ultra lnb with approx 30m of cable run and two quad lnb for Astra/Hotbird with in-house Switches. 

Markus
Am 16. Aug. 2020, 13:44 +0300 schrieb Ernst Lobsiger via groups.io <ernst.lobsiger@...>:

Dear All

I attach an schematic layout of a typical QUAD LNB. The only difference
from a SINGLE or TWIN LNB is the multiswitch (matrix) at the right side.

SINGLE: 4 x 1
TWIN   : 4 x 2
QUAD  : 4 x 4

So the effect I observed lately should also be seen on a TWIN LNB.
Assuming you have e.g. a TWIN Inverto Black Ultra LNB with two TC
receivers of any kind (Router like SR1, TBS PCIe card or USB-box).
If a first receiver is running (e.g with BASIC + HVS-1) and you
now start and tune the second receiver (e.g. HVS-2), does this
produce a burst of missed packets on the first TC receiver?

If this is a problem of the multiswitch maybe someone uses an
external multiswitch and has observed a similar effect. Switching
on one channel would give a burst of missed packets on a running
TelliCast receiver on a different cable?

My four 25m cables run in a plastic tube of about 1'' diameter. But
they have shielding > 100dB and I cannot think of a DC powering of one
cable can affect IF frequencies in another cable. HAMs might comment.


Best regards
Ernst

<ABB_2495_03_08_Block_Quad_L.gif>


Ernst Lobsiger
 

Markus

I know routers like the SR1 have the possibility to compensate for long cable runs with increased voltages. There is no such thing on my TBS PCIe cards.
But I think this has never been a problem so far. The fact that all my receivers have their independant APC-Smart-1000 UPS  might be a problem though.

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 03:57 AM, Markus Kempf wrote:
... two quad lnb for Astra/Hotbird with in-house Switches. 
I f you use in-house switches don't you actually have QUATTRO LNBs (... what EUMETSAT proposes us to use with multiple routers in the future) ?
Of course on Astra/Hotbird TV channels you will hardly see a small glitch if another channel is switching on.

Best regards
Ernst




Markus Kempf
 

Ernst, yes I have quattro switches with fixed band/polarization outputs. You might want to switch to this setup for unlimited flexibility and you have 4 cables already. 

Markus
Am 16. Aug. 2020, 14:23 +0300 schrieb Ernst Lobsiger via groups.io <ernst.lobsiger@...>:

Markus

I know routers like the SR1 have the possibility to compensate for long cable runs with increased voltages. There is no such thing on my TBS PCIe cards.
But I think this has never been a problem so far. The fact that all my receivers have their independant APC-Smart-1000 UPS  might be a problem though.

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 03:57 AM, Markus Kempf wrote:
... two quad lnb for Astra/Hotbird with in-house Switches. 
I f you use in-house switches don't you actually have QUATTRO LNBs (... what EUMETSAT proposes us to use with multiple routers in the future) ?
Of course on Astra/Hotbird TV channels you will hardly see a small glitch if another channel is switching on.

Best regards
Ernst


<ABB_2495_03_09_Block_Quattro-LNB.gif>


Ernst Lobsiger
 

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 05:02 AM, Markus Kempf wrote:
You might want to switch to this setup for unlimited flexibility and you have 4 cables already. 
Markus

I'am not interested in SAT TV and until we know how HVS-3, HVS-4  will be installed I will not follow EUMETSAT's QUATTRO recommandations.
A TBS6908 V10 can already handle all that today. But we get off topic. A "negative" post, that someone has a QUAD or TWIN LNB and at least
two TelliCast receivers (two cables) connected and does *NOT* see these missed packets I described above, would be valuble information too.

Cheers
Ernst


Ian Deans
 

On 16/08/2020 17:44, Ernst Lobsiger via groups.io wrote:
On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 05:02 AM, Markus Kempf wrote:
You might want to switch to this setup for unlimited flexibility and
you have 4 cables already. Markus
I'am not interested in SAT TV and until we know how HVS-3, HVS-4  will be installed I will not follow EUMETSAT's QUATTRO recommandations.
A TBS6908 V10 can already handle all that today. But we get off topic. A "negative" post, that someone has a QUAD or TWIN LNB and at least
two TelliCast receivers (two cables) connected and does *NOT* see these missed packets I described above, would be valuble information too.
Cheers
Ernst
___________________________________________________________________________

Ernst, I tried the above this evening and saw no missed packets.

I have a twin Inverto Black ultra and was running one cable attached to a TBS 5925 taking basic and HVS-1. The other cable was lying unattached to any receiver.

I then attached the spare cable to my SR1 and set it up for HVS-2 via telnet and then commenced to receive HVS-2 data. The basic and HVS-1 services from my TBS 5925 were still at 0 packets lost and no lost or recovered either.

Hope that helps.

Regards
Ian.


Ernst Lobsiger
 

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 12:02 PM, Ian Deans wrote:
Ernst, I tried the above this evening and saw no missed packets.
Ian

Thanks for your test. I have an unused spare QUAD Inverto Black Ultra and will probably test this one.
Of course you can only get missed packets when file transfer takes place. But with Basic+HVS-1
and a couple of EUMETCast channels subscribed this should almost always be the case.

Regards
Ernst


geojohnt@...
 

Hello Ernst,

I've been watching this unfolding discussion and thought I would have a go.

I use a 'Quad Hi Gain Low Noise' Inverto Black Ultra LNB but only use two outputs regularly - one for 24/7 EUMETCast TP 1 the other for receiving Eutelsat 9B TV - not running 24/7 but switched on and off most days.

The third port I use occasionally for checking signal/spectrum on a spectrum analyser.

The Eutelsat 9B cable itself is separate from the other two 'quad cables' which run together for a length of around 4.5 m through a narrow plastic tube along with another cable coming from another dish receiving Astra 1 which is not on 24/7 but switched on and off for a time most days.

Total cable run is around 14/15 m and is CT100.
The Eutelsat 9B coax is from a German websate firm but I'm not sure of it's 'technical spec/quality.'
It's 'silver' screening mesh is fairly open and the 'metal shield' is also 'silver.'
Not as high a technical spec/quality as CT100.

Right, mmmm, interesting.
You appear to be right.

My Tellicast Statistics and SR1 Telnet readout have been running 3 days and 2 hours 15 minutes after a reset and the figures from that time were:

HVS 1 M. P. B4. FEC.  47
           FEC. R. P.         0

BS      M. P. BS. FEC. 10
           FEC. R. P.        10 

Switch on another port (Eutelsat 9B)  HVS 1 now M.P. B4. FEC.  104  -  FEC. R. P.   0.
                                                            BS now      M. P. B4. FEC.  170  -  FEC. R. P.   41 

SR1 Telnet Readout after '3 days 2 hr 15 mins reset:' 

B. F. C. 43
B. P. C. 351.

After switch on of adjacent Eutelst 9B port: B. F. C. 61  -  B. P. C. 361.

I switched the adjacent port on again an hour later - the second of (new) figures above had remained the same and the new figures were now:

HVS 1 M. B. P. B4. FEC   155.
           FEC. R. P.              1

BS      M. B. P. B4. FEC.   233
           FEC. R. P.              41    

SR1 readout 'second set new' figures above had remained the same, the new figures are now:

B. F. C.  62
B. P. C.  389

Sorry about the above tabulation format, I hope it remains as typed and makes sense.

It does seem switching on another quad output 'effects' EUMETCast's SR1 readout and Tellicast Statistics.

Best wishes,
John.

 







-----Original Message-----
From: Ernst Lobsiger via groups.io <ernst.lobsiger@...>
To: MSG-1@groups.io
Sent: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:11
Subject: [MSG-1] QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB

Dear All

I have used a QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB for years. During this
summer I did again intensive testing with up to 4 TC receivers.
Only lately I discovered that the moment of starting a TC receiver
on one of the four cables can regularly produce missed packets
on the rest of the running TC receivers on the other three cables.

Has this been observed by other users that use a/this QUAD LNB?
Is this a problem of the multiswitch or some voltage regulator?
Can someone with electrical backgound comment on my 25m cables?
Is this a sign that it is about time to have this QUAD LNB replaced?


Best regards
Ernst

P.S.
It's well possible it has always been like that and I just didn't notice.


Hendrik Fleming
 

Hi Ernest,
I had a similar experience with one of my other Quad-LNBs. I used 2 inputs to go to my TBS-6903, one input to go to a SDR  and my Spectrum Analyzer (via a little box supplying the pilot tone and correct voltage.) On that LNB I have noticed the 22kHz pilot tone on one channel seems to leak through and switch the other channels into high-band. Have since changed to a QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB and the problem has gone away. Maybe something similar is happening to yours. I haven't opened that funny LNB yet to see if I can figure out why the 22kHz pilot tone switches the other channels to High-band.

Regards
Hendrik


geojohnt@...
 

Hello again Ernst,

Well, that's annoying?

I've tried switching on my Satellite TV receiver twice again using the same quad port for Eutelsat 9B as before but this time - with increased SR1 SNR than the previous test, ~ +0.4 dB - it had no effect on either HVS-1 and BS Tellicast Statistics or the SR1 Telnet RX Status readout.

?????

Best wishes,
John

+++++++++++++++++++++++

-----Original Message-----
From: geojohnt via groups.io <geojohnt@...>
To: MSG-1@groups.io <MSG-1@groups.io>
Sent: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 14:52
Subject: Re: [MSG-1] QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB

Hello Ernst,

I've been watching this unfolding discussion and thought I would have a go.

I use a 'Quad Hi Gain Low Noise' Inverto Black Ultra LNB but only use two outputs regularly - one for 24/7 EUMETCast TP 1 the other for receiving Eutelsat 9B TV - not running 24/7 but switched on and off most days.

The third port I use occasionally for checking signal/spectrum on a spectrum analyser.

The Eutelsat 9B cable itself is separate from the other two 'quad cables' which run together for a length of around 4.5 m through a narrow plastic tube along with another cable coming from another dish receiving Astra 1 which is not on 24/7 but switched on and off for a time most days.

Total cable run is around 14/15 m and is CT100.
The Eutelsat 9B coax is from a German websate firm but I'm not sure of it's 'technical spec/quality.'
It's 'silver' screening mesh is fairly open and the 'metal shield' is also 'silver.'
Not as high a technical spec/quality as CT100.

Right, mmmm, interesting.
You appear to be right.

My Tellicast Statistics and SR1 Telnet readout have been running 3 days and 2 hours 15 minutes after a reset and the figures from that time were:

HVS 1 M. P. B4. FEC.  47
           FEC. R. P.         0

BS      M. P. BS. FEC. 10
           FEC. R. P.        10 

Switch on another port (Eutelsat 9B)  HVS 1 now M.P. B4. FEC.  104  -  FEC. R. P.   0.
                                                            BS now      M. P. B4. FEC.  170  -  FEC. R. P.   41 

SR1 Telnet Readout after '3 days 2 hr 15 mins reset:' 

B. F. C. 43
B. P. C. 351.

After switch on of adjacent Eutelst 9B port: B. F. C. 61  -  B. P. C. 361.

I switched the adjacent port on again an hour later - the second of (new) figures above had remained the same and the new figures were now:

HVS 1 M. B. P. B4. FEC   155.
           FEC. R. P.              1

BS      M. B. P. B4. FEC.   233
           FEC. R. P.              41    

SR1 readout 'second set new' figures above had remained the same, the new figures are now:

B. F. C.  62
B. P. C.  389

Sorry about the above tabulation format, I hope it remains as typed and makes sense.

It does seem switching on another quad output 'effects' EUMETCast's SR1 readout and Tellicast Statistics.

Best wishes,
John.

++++++++++++++++++

-----Original Message-----
From: Ernst Lobsiger via groups.io <ernst.lobsiger@...>
To: MSG-1@groups.io
Sent: Sat, 15 Aug 2020 18:11
Subject: [MSG-1] QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB

Dear All

I have used a QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB for years. During this
summer I did again intensive testing with up to 4 TC receivers.
Only lately I discovered that the moment of starting a TC receiver
on one of the four cables can regularly produce missed packets
on the rest of the running TC receivers on the other three cables.

Has this been observed by other users that use a/this QUAD LNB?
Is this a problem of the multiswitch or some voltage regulator?
Can someone with electrical backgound comment on my 25m cables?
Is this a sign that it is about time to have this QUAD LNB replaced?


Best regards
Ernst

P.S.
It's well possible it has always been like that and I just didn't notice.


Ernst Lobsiger
 

Hi John

Thank you for your experiments and detailed description of your system. It could well be that we see the effect only with lower SNR when everything is more easily disturbed.

If I understand your first post right you were able to disturb the SR1 via a TV cable ON/OFF that runs apart from the EUMETCast SR1 and Spectrum Analizer cables.
So this excludes a cable to cable induction which is even less likely when the cables only run 4.5m in the same tube. This should also test negative with your ASTRA TV.

Your system is good for a couple of more combinations to nail the culprit down. Maybe Ian can repeat his experiment so we can truly exclude the TWIN LNB from consideration.
In any case it must be certain, that at the moment you do the ON/OFF switching of a second receiver, the TELLICast receiver must download data of a subscribed channel.

Looking more closely at the problem today, I even see missed packets when the second source is switched OFF. I had the TC client renamed/rearranged on receiver Europa.
For that I had to take Europa down for a couple of minutes and also unload the DVB-Interfaces in GNU/Linux which will stop tuning and powering the respective LNB cable.

This disturbed receiver Titan on HVS-1 and HVS-2 with missed packets both when OFF and ON at Europa. The basic service on Titan was not affected. See my plots below.

Best regards
Ernst








geojohnt@...
 

Ernst,

Well, as far as I know, EUMETSAT are going to use a different satellite for future new streams (as well as Eutelsat 10 A).
I seem to recall a diagram some time ago from EUMETSAT regarding the setup of a multi LNB dish for current and future EUMETCast services.

Best wishes,
John.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 


-----Original Message-----
From: Ernst Lobsiger via groups.io <ernst.lobsiger@...>
To: MSG-1@groups.io
Sent: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:44
Subject: Re: [MSG-1] QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 05:02 AM, Markus Kempf wrote:
You might want to switch to this setup for unlimited flexibility and you have 4 cables already. 
Markus

I'am not interested in SAT TV and until we know how HVS-3, HVS-4  will be installed I will not follow EUMETSAT's QUATTRO recommandations.
A TBS6908 V10 can already handle all that today. But we get off topic. A "negative" post, that someone has a QUAD or TWIN LNB and at least
two TelliCast receivers (two cables) connected and does *NOT* see these missed packets I described above, would be valuble information too.

Cheers
Ernst


geojohnt@...
 

Hello Ernst,

Thanks for your comments and diagrams.

I tried the 'other receivers' switch on again last evening when my SNR was a little higher and the Strong Viaccess receiver I use for French TNSAT TV, Eutelsat 9B for EbS and Astra 1 German TV channels sometimes but not always caused a small increase in Tellicast Missed Packets before FEC.  Most of these missed packets over time were/are never FEC recovered.

Also the SR1 readout showed increases in errors some of the time.

My SatPal spectrum analyser seemed to cause 'problems' more of the time when switching on at this time. 

But, these missed packets never seem to be a 'visible problem' as I do not see missed data gaps in my images.

>If I understand your first post right you were able to disturb the SR1 via a TV cable ON/OFF that runs >apart from the EUMETCast SR1 and Spectrum Analizer cables.

Yes that's right.
My satellite TV receiver is fed by a cable from another dish and LNB for Astra 1 French and German TV [this cable runs for a length in a plastic tube together with the SatPal cable and EUMETCast cable from the quad LNB] the third cable from the quad LNB runs on its own to the satellite TV receiver for Eutelsat 9B EbS.
The Astra 1 cable and the Eutelsat 9B cable are connected to the satellite TV receiver receiver via a hi isolation coax switch.
Yes I know, I should use a modern DiSEqC switch.

And yes, I too have seen a few missed packets occasionally when switching off 'another receiver.' 

Oh no!
I've just switched on the satellite TV receiver (from the EUMETCast quad LNB) with rain reduced SR1 SNR and no change in Tellicast missed packets!
Both rebooting the receiver and/or switching the antenna coax.

But switching on the SatPal spectrum analyser did cause an increase in BS lost packets (and increased FEC recovered packets!) but not in HVS-1 lost packets.
I switched the SatPal on again and no increase this time in BS (nor any in HVS-1).

I'm not sure I'm proving anything and maybe it's all a coincidence?

Best wishes,
John.

++++++++++++++++
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ernst Lobsiger via groups.io <ernst.lobsiger@...>
To: MSG-1@groups.io
Sent: Mon, 17 Aug 2020 20:37
Subject: Re: [MSG-1] QUAD Inverto Black Ultra LNB

Hi John

Thank you for your experiments and detailed description of your system. It could well be that we see the effect only with lower SNR when everything is more easily disturbed.

If I understand your first post right you were able to disturb the SR1 via a TV cable ON/OFF that runs apart from the EUMETCast SR1 and Spectrum Analizer cables.
So this excludes a cable to cable induction which is even less likely when the cables only run 4.5m in the same tube. This should also test negative with your ASTRA TV.

Your system is good for a couple of more combinations to nail the culprit down. Maybe Ian can repeat his experiment so we can truly exclude the TWIN LNB from consideration.
In any case it must be certain, that at the moment you do the ON/OFF switching of a second receiver, the TELLICast receiver must download data of a subscribed channel.

Looking more closely at the problem today, I even see missed packets when the second source is switched OFF. I had the TC client renamed/rearranged on receiver Europa.
For that I had to take Europa down for a couple of minutes and also unload the DVB-Interfaces in GNU/Linux which will stop tuning and powering the respective LNB cable.

This disturbed receiver Titan on HVS-1 and HVS-2 with missed packets both when OFF and ON at Europa. The basic service on Titan was not affected. See my plots below.

Best regards
Ernst








Ernst Lobsiger
 

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 08:10 AM, <geojohnt@...> wrote:
I'm not sure I'm proving anything and maybe it's all a coincidence?
 
John

Thanks for your help. I'm quite sure you see about what I see here. Distrurbing other receivers is observed in about 30- 50% of my tests.
It may depend of many things (today my black LNB is very hot). I even just now thought of inductive energy peaking out of a long cable
If you switch OFF. But it's definitely seen when switching OFF and ON. I add the BigBang: receiver Terra switched OFF and ON on top. Then
I took image magick convert to stack the plots of missed packets BAS, HVS-1, HVS-2 of my other three receivers connected to the QUAD LNB.

Regards
Ernst