Topics

Missing segments

David Pykett
 

Hi

I had my dish (88cm) mounted at the rear of the garage last Saturday and
it appears that since then I have lost far more segments than previously
and the signal quality although most of the time around 60% seems to
drop sometimes down to about 50% then up to 60-61% there are no trees or
anything else in front of the dish that would cause a problem, below I
have pasted the missing segment report for today so far, is anyone else
getting this many errors?

Cycle: 0245
msg-ch12, seg: 19
Cycle: 0300
g9-ir, seg: 1
Cycle: 0715
msg-ch01, seg: 7 8
msg-ch02, seg: 7 8
msg-ch03, seg: 7 8
msg-ch04, seg: 7 8
msg-ch05, seg: 7 8
msg-ch06, seg: 7 8
msg-ch07, seg: 7 8
msg-ch08, seg: 7 8
msg-ch09, seg: 7 8
msg-ch10, seg: 7 8
msg-ch11, seg: 6 7 8
msg-ch12, seg: 19 20 21 22 23 24
lrit-ch01, seg: 7 8
lrit-ch03, seg: 7 8
lrit-ch04, seg: 7 8
lrit-ch05, seg: 7 8
lrit-ch09, seg: 7 8

Regards

Dave

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί
 

I had my dish (88cm) mounted at the rear of the garage last Saturday and
it appears that since then I have lost far more segments than previously
and the signal quality although most of the time around 60% seems to
drop sometimes down to about 50% then up to 60-61% there are no trees or
anything else in front of the dish that would cause a problem, below I
have pasted the missing segment report for today so far, is anyone else
getting this many errors?

Cycle: 0245
msg-ch12, seg: 19
Cycle: 0300
g9-ir, seg: 1
Cycle: 0715
msg-ch01, seg: 7 8
msg-ch02, seg: 7 8
msg-ch03, seg: 7 8
msg-ch04, seg: 7 8
msg-ch05, seg: 7 8
msg-ch06, seg: 7 8
msg-ch07, seg: 7 8
msg-ch08, seg: 7 8
msg-ch09, seg: 7 8
msg-ch10, seg: 7 8
msg-ch11, seg: 6 7 8
msg-ch12, seg: 19 20 21 22 23 24
lrit-ch01, seg: 7 8
lrit-ch03, seg: 7 8
lrit-ch04, seg: 7 8
lrit-ch05, seg: 7 8
lrit-ch09, seg: 7 8
Dave, I had none of the missing segments you noted. Today has been 100%
OK for segments. It looks possible that cycle 0715 was not complete at
the time you produced the Missing Segment report, if not, then that's not
so good.

Some of us have found that after signal interruption, either therer is a
high missing segment rate, or the whole receiver PC needs to be rebooted.
I would suggest a receiver PC reboot as the first step to try. I have
also had two periods of a high missing segment rate, which I could not
explain. No high wind, no rain, and no obvious foreign bodies near the
dish and LNB. These went away after a few hours in one case, and a couple
of days in the other. To this day, I don't know what caused that problem.

Good luck with resolving this problem.

Cheers,
David

davidstrickland2003 <David@...>
 

David,
I have been away for a few days. Today I powered up my 2 PC MSG
system when I arrived home early this afternoon. The 1400 missing
segments are, I believe understandable as I must have just caught the
middle of that transmission. So from ch1-11 I lost segs. 1234 and
from ch.12 1-11. At 1515 I lost seg 8 from ch 1,3,4,5,9; at 1545 I
lost seg 6 from ch 1,3,4,5,9 and at 1815 I lost seg 7 from ch
1,3,4,5,9. All other images inbetween these are 100% ok. Note that
the losses effect the same channels!! I am sure my hardware does not
know about channels and time and although it is a little rainy it
would be extremely improbable that it would cause this effect. As the
machines have just been restarted any previous state should have been
lost. The patterns above shout software, not hardware but it is
probably within the TEllique software so would be hard for me to
trouble shoot - no code!! Question - any ideas how I could go about
troubleshooting. If I had two front end machines I could start them
at different times and compare the raw files collected but I do not.
Any ideas?

Regards David S.

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί
 

--- In MSG-1@..., "davidstrickland2003" <David@s...>
wrote:
David,
I have been away for a few days. Today I powered up my 2 PC MSG
system when I arrived home early this afternoon. The 1400 missing
segments are, I believe understandable as I must have just caught
the
middle of that transmission. So from ch1-11 I lost segs. 1234 and
from ch.12 1-11. At 1515 I lost seg 8 from ch 1,3,4,5,9; at 1545 I
lost seg 6 from ch 1,3,4,5,9 and at 1815 I lost seg 7 from ch
1,3,4,5,9. All other images inbetween these are 100% ok. Note that
the losses effect the same channels!! I am sure my hardware does
not
know about channels and time and although it is a little rainy it
would be extremely improbable that it would cause this effect. As
the
machines have just been restarted any previous state should have
been
lost. The patterns above shout software, not hardware but it is
probably within the TEllique software so would be hard for me to
trouble shoot - no code!! Question - any ideas how I could go
about
troubleshooting. If I had two front end machines I could start
them
at different times and compare the raw files collected but I do
not.
Any ideas?

Regards David S.
David,

I believe the fact that the same channels are affected is because
the files are transmitted in groups. (I am guessing this from the
entries in the Tellique log file). I also see that if I get a loss,
frequently it is not a single segment, but a set of segments from
different channels. So there is a single point of failure for
multiple segments (could someone from Eumetsat please confirm this?).

I hope soon to have a dual-receiver system (for a short while at
least) so that I can see if such failures do occur in common. Other
than that, I am really stuck to explain this.

My kit is still playing up in spite of repeated reboots etc. If it
was like this on day one, it would have been sent straight back to
the supplier!

Cheers,
David

Guy Martin <agm@...>
 

Davids,

Just a thought, is it worth trying another DVB card, they are fairly cheap, and some have already proved to be 'iffy' in terms of overheating, it is running hot ?, and you have more or less proved that its not the OS or wind.

Cheers, Guy

----- Original Message -----
From: David Taylor
To: MSG-1@...
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 8:16 PM
Subject: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments


--- In MSG-1@..., "davidstrickland2003" <David@s...>
wrote:
> So from ch1-11 I lost segs. 1234 and
> from ch.12 1-11. At 1515 I lost seg 8 from ch 1,3,4,5,9; at 1545 I
> lost seg 6 from ch 1,3,4,5,9 and at 1815 I lost seg 7 from ch
> 1,3,4,5,9. All other images inbetween these are 100% ok. Note that
>
My kit is still playing up in spite of repeated reboots etc. If it
was like this on day one, it would have been sent straight back to
the supplier!

Cheers,
David


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David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί
 

--- In MSG-1@..., "Guy Martin" <agm@t...> wrote:
Davids,

Just a thought, is it worth trying another DVB card, they are
fairly cheap, and some have already proved to be 'iffy' in terms of
overheating, it is running hot ?, and you have more or less proved
that its not the OS or wind.

Cheers, Guy
Thanks, Guy. Yes, I already have that in hand. I hope to try a
different card, in a different PC, with a different version of the
OS!

Today it is quite windy, and I am seeing short bursts of higher BER,
and then Uncorrected Blocks, which can be roughly correlated with
the noise of the wind outside. Even an occasional dip of signal
quality into the yellow. So under those circumstances missing
segments are understandable, if not desirable.

At other times, though, like a few other people, I seem to get a day
of missing segments with no apparent explanation.

I am wondering if a bigger dish might be a good idea, or if it would
be even more likely to become mis-aligned and therefore produce even
more missing segments!

Cheers,
David

John Parkins <kvp@...>
 

Hello David,

How bigger dish are you using at the moment David?


Wednesday, November 5, 2003, 8:33:32 AM, you wrote:



DT> I am wondering if a bigger dish might be a good idea, or if it would
DT> be even more likely to become mis-aligned and therefore produce even
DT> more missing segments!

DT> Cheers,
DT> David


--
Best regards,
John mailto:kvp@...

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί
 

--- In MSG-1@..., John Parkins <kvp@b...> wrote:
Hello David,

How bigger dish are you using at the moment David?
88cm - as supplied by TimeStep. My location is Edinburgh. Signal
quality is normally 60^ - 70%, SNR 9.3 to 10.7dB.

Cheers,
David

Ian S Deans <ian@...>
 

David,

Your dish size is more than adequate. For normal TV use the recommended size
for Hotbird for most of Scotland is 70cm and that should not be any
different for data. What concerns me more about your system is the fact the
strong winds are obviously seriously affecting your dish. If this was put up
professionally David get them back out. In this modern day and age dishes
attached to walls buildings etc. should not have so much movement that
serious signal loss occurs.

Regards
Ian.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Taylor" <david-taylor@...>
To: <MSG-1@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:46 AM
Subject: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments


--- In MSG-1@..., John Parkins <kvp@b...> wrote:
Hello David,

How bigger dish are you using at the moment David?
88cm - as supplied by TimeStep. My location is Edinburgh. Signal
quality is normally 60^ - 70%, SNR 9.3 to 10.7dB.

Cheers,
David

Guy Martin <agm@...>
 

David,

You say it has been working fine until recently so the dish size is ok, a bigger dish will offer more wind resistance. I would be inclined to change the card first of all, then look for cable problems, water ingress etc, have you used self amalgamating tape around the connectors, then is the LNB ok ? "Suspect a simple fault !" The DVB card would still be my first bet given its history of problems.

Cheers, Guy

----- Original Message -----
From: David Taylor
To: MSG-1@...
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 8:33 AM
Subject: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments


--- In MSG-1@..., "Guy Martin" <agm@t...> wrote:
> Davids,
>
>Thanks, Guy. Yes, I already have that in hand. I hope to try a
different card, in a different PC, with a different version of the
OS!

I am wondering if a bigger dish might be a good idea, or if it would
be even more likely to become mis-aligned and therefore produce even
more missing segments!

Cheers,
David


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Peter Benney <tugboat@...>
 

David,

Having once again read the following :-

http://www.tellique.de/tq_tellicast/filebroadcast_p2.html

Do you think there could be errors in the dynamic key generation on the Tellicast server. I am not refering to the encryption which is not yet in place.

If the generation of the keys which enable each Tellique Client User/Password to receive specific data channels and files become corrupted this would explain why these problems are user and time related.

Peter

Douglas Deans <douglas@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian S Deans" <ian@...>
To: <MSG-1@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments


David,

Your dish size is more than adequate. For normal TV use the recommended
size
for Hotbird for most of Scotland is 70cm and that should not be any
different for data. What concerns me more about your system is the fact
the
strong winds are obviously seriously affecting your dish. If this was put
up
professionally David get them back out. In this modern day and age dishes
attached to walls buildings etc. should not have so much movement that
serious signal loss occurs.

Regards
Ian.

I do agree. My dish (80cms ex SKY analogue) is on top of a 'non rigid' 6'
pole with no guys, fixed directly into the ground, and moves quite a bit in
the wind with no loss of data. This makes me think that if it is movement
it must be excessive. Perhaps a poor cable connection ?
Is it within reach of reasonable ladders or a pole to see if it is 'wobbly'
before calling the fitters back.
The card is still a possibility in that it could be behaving incorrectly to
small drops in signal caused by wind.
Next windy day why not stop taking MSG and watch Sailing channel keeping an
eye on signal levels and image quality.
Just one other thing as a long shot. I once tried whilst MSG data was
coming in, looking at the signal level on SetUP4PC....disaster. You must
not do anything with that program during MSG reception or data can be
lost.... not even checking signal level.

Regards
Douglas.

Timestep <Information@...>
 

From: Dave Cawley
Timestep Dartmouth England
e-mail Information@...
Web site http://www.Time-step.com
Tel. +44 (0)1803 833366
Fax. +44 (0)1803 839498

I think your dish is on the edge of the satellite ?

Dave

Ian S Deans <ian@...>
 

That's a very fair point. Very slight movement in a badly aligned dish will
lose signal rapidly. There is no better illustration of this than the
recent move by BBC to Astra 2D with its much tighter spot beam allowing the
BBC to go FTA. Thousands of Sky customers particularly at the extremes of
the beam lost the BBC channels and it is reckoned that most of the problems
were down to badly aligned dishes. Shoddy work by professionals.

Ian

----- Original Message -----
From: "Timestep" <Information@...>
To: <MSG-1@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments



From: Dave Cawley
Timestep Dartmouth England
e-mail Information@...
Web site http://www.Time-step.com
Tel. +44 (0)1803 833366
Fax. +44 (0)1803 839498

I think your dish is on the edge of the satellite ?

Dave

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί
 

--- In MSG-1@..., "Ian S Deans" <ian@i...> wrote:

I think your dish is on the edge of the satellite ?

Dave
That's a very fair point. Very slight movement in a badly aligned
dish will lose signal rapidly.

Dave, Ian. Many thanks to you both for your comments.

.. and I found that the maximum solar outage did not correspond
_precisely_ with the WXtrack predictions. It does all point to a
slight alignment error, but how to convince the professional
installers of this? How many months guarantee you would expect on
dish alignment in any case? I would love to get the "professional
installers" out again, but am worried that they check the dish, and
say "It looks OK to us, that will be Β£50, please!"

Cheers,
David

John Parkins <kvp@...>
 

Hello David,

I use a 1m dish here in London and get 80%+ and a SNR of 12+. I would
have thought that so long as your getting a fairly solid signal this
wouldn't be causing lost segments. I have to say though that apart
from the ones reported by others I don't seem to miss any, the dish
does have the mother of a bracket on it though and doesn't move a bit
even in the highest winds.


Wednesday, November 5, 2003, 8:46:48 AM, you wrote:

DT> --- In MSG-1@..., John Parkins <kvp@b...> wrote:
Hello David,

How bigger dish are you using at the moment David?
DT> 88cm - as supplied by TimeStep. My location is Edinburgh. Signal
DT> quality is normally 60^ - 70%, SNR 9.3 to 10.7dB.

DT> Cheers,
DT> David



DT> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
DT> MSG-1-unsubscribe@...



DT> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
DT> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




--
Best regards,
John mailto:kvp@...

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί
 

Just one other thing as a long shot. I once tried whilst MSG data
was coming in, looking at the signal level on SetUP4PC....disaster.
You must not do anything with that program during MSG reception or
data can be lost.... not even checking signal level.

Douglas,

Thanks for your comments on dish alignment etc. I'm phsching myself
up to calling the professionals again! (They did seem to take good
care when installing, that's why I'm reluctant).

I run Setup4PC all the time when receiving MSG-1 and have not, as
far as I know, ever had a problem due to this. I have the
Statistics screen on permanent display. What you say surprises me.
Has anyone else found this?

Cheers,
David

Douglas Deans <douglas@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Taylor" <david-taylor@...>
To: <MSG-1@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:56 PM
Subject: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments


Just one other thing as a long shot. I once tried whilst MSG data
was coming in, looking at the signal level on SetUP4PC....disaster.
You must not do anything with that program during MSG reception or
data can be lost.... not even checking signal level.

Douglas,

Thanks for your comments on dish alignment etc. I'm phsching myself
up to calling the professionals again! (They did seem to take good
care when installing, that's why I'm reluctant).

I run Setup4PC all the time when receiving MSG-1 and have not, as
far as I know, ever had a problem due to this. I have the
Statistics screen on permanent display. What you say surprises me.
Has anyone else found this?

Cheers,
David
Try a few days without the statistics screen, David..... might be
interesting. All I have is the green 'signal ok' icon in the taskbar. If I
want to have a look at signal level I do it after I have shutdown Tellique.
The only other issue (don't know whether it is relevant or not) is that I
have the original Tellique software (pre MSG).
I do hope you will get this resolved. If anyone deserves hassle free
reception, it's you David !

Regards
Douglas.

Ian S Deans <ian@...>
 

David,

I have just tried running Setup4PC for about 4 minutes with data coming in.
I take channels 2-4-5-9-12 at the moment and in that very short period I
lost 3 segments. Even with this fairly low computer spec. I have never ever
had segment loss ( apart from Eumetsat problems ). I am running a more
recent version of the Tellique software and the newer card. It would appear
that Douglas is spot on -- if you attempt to even look at the status on the
card with data coming in you are going to get segment loss -- certainly that
is my findings.

Regards

Ian.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Taylor" <david-taylor@...>
To: <MSG-1@...>
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 3:56 PM
Subject: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments


Just one other thing as a long shot. I once tried whilst MSG data
was coming in, looking at the signal level on SetUP4PC....disaster.
You must not do anything with that program during MSG reception or
data can be lost.... not even checking signal level.

Douglas,

Thanks for your comments on dish alignment etc. I'm phsching myself
up to calling the professionals again! (They did seem to take good
care when installing, that's why I'm reluctant).

I run Setup4PC all the time when receiving MSG-1 and have not, as
far as I know, ever had a problem due to this. I have the
Statistics screen on permanent display. What you say surprises me.
Has anyone else found this?

Cheers,
David

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁒󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 πŸ‡ͺπŸ‡Ί
 

--- In MSG-1@..., "Ian S Deans" <ian@i...> wrote:
David,

I have just tried running Setup4PC for about 4 minutes with data
coming in. I take channels 2-4-5-9-12 at the moment and in that
very short period I lost 3 segments. Even with this fairly low
computer spec. I have never ever had segment loss ( apart from
Eumetsat problems ). I am running a more recent version of the
Tellique software and the newer card. It would appear that Douglas
is spot on -- if you attempt to even look at the status on the card
with data coming in you are going to get segment loss -- certainly
that is my findings.

Regards

Ian.
Well, that's interesting - perhaps we are starting to get somewhere?

However, I've been running Setup4PC, Transponder Status display, all
day today (last reboot was 19:30 last night) and since 10:15 this
morning I have had zero missing segments! Today's problems I can
relate to the wind. But if I start getting unexplained missing
segments I will certainly stop Setup4PC.

(Also running Tellique 2.3.1, Windows Server 2000, older DVB card).

Thanks,
David