New user with missed packets problems


angusperfect <angusperfect@...>
 

Hello group,
I wondered if anyone there can help a new user with a setup problem that I have been unable to solve.
I have a serious missed packets before FEC rate that is running around 10000 for every 500000 packets received with the FEC recovered packet rate running at 7000 in the Tellicast statistics. The setup4pc signal quality is consistent at 87 to 90% the SNR is around 12dB and the BER is consistently zero. The net result is an very high rate of missed segments, I am lucky to get 1 or 2 for each channel. The missed segments seem to be random between each data set.
The setup I have is a conventional single PC dual core 2Ghz 2GB ram dual hard drive, Skystar2 PCI card, windows XP SP3, except that because the dish (85cm)is someway from the house (around 30 metres of cable), I have a 20dB amplifier about halfway down the cable. The only other notable difference is that none of the Eumetsat drivers would work with my card (failure to start messages) and I had to download the v4.5 drivers and S/W from Technisat to get the system to run at all.
I have tried all the suggested PC fixes I can find on the web and documentation, RAM disks, drivers etc etc, none of which seem to help or even slightly alter the problem symptoms so my feeling is it is in the dish/LNB/cable system.
Does the group think this the right area to attack next or is it more likely it be in the PC hardware/software somewhere.
Thanks for any help or pointers you can give me.

Angus


a_van_belle
 

Hello Angus,

Sorry to hear of all your problems.
First try to limit data to only 1 data channel (like data channel 2)
to make sure it is not a performance issue.

SNR is good but this readout is an average that does not show very short interruptions. A satfinder connected just before the skystar does show fast changes due to waving trees, oscillating amplifiers better. Have you tried without the amplifier ?

Good luck,
Arne van Belle

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "angusperfect" <angusperfect@...> wrote:

Hello group,
I wondered if anyone there can help a new user with a setup problem that I have been unable to solve.
I have a serious missed packets before FEC rate that is running around 10000 for every 500000 packets received with the FEC recovered packet rate running at 7000 in the Tellicast statistics. The setup4pc signal quality is consistent at 87 to 90% the SNR is around 12dB and the BER is consistently zero. The net result is an very high rate of missed segments, I am lucky to get 1 or 2 for each channel. The missed segments seem to be random between each data set.
The setup I have is a conventional single PC dual core 2Ghz 2GB ram dual hard drive, Skystar2 PCI card, windows XP SP3, except that because the dish (85cm)is someway from the house (around 30 metres of cable), I have a 20dB amplifier about halfway down the cable. The only other notable difference is that none of the Eumetsat drivers would work with my card (failure to start messages) and I had to download the v4.5 drivers and S/W from Technisat to get the system to run at all.
I have tried all the suggested PC fixes I can find on the web and documentation, RAM disks, drivers etc etc, none of which seem to help or even slightly alter the problem symptoms so my feeling is it is in the dish/LNB/cable system.
Does the group think this the right area to attack next or is it more likely it be in the PC hardware/software somewhere.
Thanks for any help or pointers you can give me.

Angus


Alan Banks <alan@...>
 

Hi Angus,
I would try without the amplifier for starters. I have a 25m + run of cable with no concerns at all ( dish is on far side of house from the PC.
Also concerned re your drivers - are you using drivers from the CD enclosed in packaging with the PCI card?
As Arne says - try one channel alone and see if that helps.
Are you running XP or Vista?

Regards

Alan

angusperfect wrote:

Hello group,
I wondered if anyone there can help a new user with a setup problem that I have been unable to solve.
I have a serious missed packets before FEC rate that is running around 10000 for every 500000 packets received with the FEC recovered packet rate running at 7000 in the Tellicast statistics. The setup4pc signal quality is consistent at 87 to 90% the SNR is around 12dB and the BER is consistently zero. The net result is an very high rate of missed segments, I am lucky to get 1 or 2 for each channel. The missed segments seem to be random between each data set.
The setup I have is a conventional single PC dual core 2Ghz 2GB ram dual hard drive, Skystar2 PCI card, windows XP SP3, except that because the dish (85cm)is someway from the house (around 30 metres of cable), I have a 20dB amplifier about halfway down the cable. The only other notable difference is that none of the Eumetsat drivers would work with my card (failure to start messages) and I had to download the v4.5 drivers and S/W from Technisat to get the system to run at all.
I have tried all the suggested PC fixes I can find on the web and documentation, RAM disks, drivers etc etc, none of which seem to help or even slightly alter the problem symptoms so my feeling is it is in the dish/LNB/cable system.
Does the group think this the right area to attack next or is it more likely it be in the PC hardware/software somewhere.
Thanks for any help or pointers you can give me.
Angus
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David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

angusperfect wrote:
Hello group,
[]
Does the group think this the right area to attack next or is it more
likely it be in the PC hardware/software somewhere.
Thanks for any help or pointers you can give me.

Angus
Angus,

As others have said, drop the amplifier and set up TelliCast to deliver just the minimum subset, perhaps [EUMETSAT Data Channel 2] alone to get just the HRIT data.

The EUMETSAT-supplied drivers have an error when they checked the Windows version - they will /work/ on XP SP3, but they will not /install/ on XP SP3. I am using the 4.5 drivers on one PC without the high level of segment loss you are seeing.

I suspect the PC hardware or software. The PCI SkyStar card doesn't seem as good with today's data stream as the DVB World / Dexatek USB box, but you won't want to change that just yet. Try running the DPC Latency Checker and report its results.

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

Look with the Windows Task Manager whether anything is eating the CPU, disk, or network I/O resources. Particularly, try the PC without any Internet connection, and with any anti-virus or Firewall software removed.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: www.satsignal.eu
Email: davidtaylor@writeme.com


angusperfect <angusperfect@...>
 

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "David J Taylor" <gm8arv@...> wrote:

angusperfect wrote:
Hello group,
[]
Does the group think this the right area to attack next or is it more
likely it be in the PC hardware/software somewhere.
Thanks for any help or pointers you can give me.

Angus
Angus,

As others have said, drop the amplifier and set up TelliCast to deliver
just the minimum subset, perhaps [EUMETSAT Data Channel 2] alone to get
just the HRIT data.

The EUMETSAT-supplied drivers have an error when they checked the Windows
version - they will /work/ on XP SP3, but they will not /install/ on XP
SP3. I am using the 4.5 drivers on one PC without the high level of
segment loss you are seeing.

I suspect the PC hardware or software. The PCI SkyStar card doesn't seem
as good with today's data stream as the DVB World / Dexatek USB box, but
you won't want to change that just yet. Try running the DPC Latency
Checker and report its results.

http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml

Look with the Windows Task Manager whether anything is eating the CPU,
disk, or network I/O resources. Particularly, try the PC without any
Internet connection, and with any anti-virus or Firewall software removed.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: www.satsignal.eu
Email: davidtaylor@...
David, Arne and Alan,
First of all thanks for your help, its good to have people to bounce ideas off!!
Today I have removed the in-line amplifier and re-ran the LNB cable with new higher quality coax and connectors. By taking an underground route I managed to get the total run down to 23 metres which sounds within the groups experience. Checking on Setup4PC I have only lost 1 or 2% of signal quality which is now at 86-87%, with 12.4dB S/N and still zero BER. Alas after this modification I could detect no improvement in missed packets and segments.
Next I tried repositioning the PCI card in a different slot (other side of the video card) to see if a new interrupt/bus position might help. Again after re-installing all software and drivers the dropouts were just as bad. I also tried disabling all other network devices leaving just the SS2 running. DHCP allocated a new interface address after a reboot so I changed recv-ini in Tellicast to match. Again no improvement.
Next I disabled all Firewall and Virus scanning software, again no detectable difference.
Next I tried removing all PIDs from Setup4PC except 100 and 300 and set Tellicast to just gather channel 2 HRIT data. Data rates of course were much lower and I think I can see a very slight improvement, maybe 1 or 2 more segments in each channel which are now running at 3 out of 8 and 2 or 3 out of 24 for HRV, using XRIT2Pic.
I have run the DPC latency checker, as suggested by David. This stays in the green at all times unless I am on the internet and changing pages. DPC values with the PC doing nothing other than services etc and the logging, peak abs max at 302uS and average around 100uS.(Is this good enough?)
I had a look at the CPU load during this period and it never rises above 5% and the disk queue length no more than 2 or 3%.
I have also tried moving the receiving and received files in various combinations between a 128M RAM disk and the two hard drives (one SATA one IDE) available with no detectable difference in performance. The .fsy files (which I assume is where all the file fragments end up if the file cannot be assembled correctly) expand at such a rate that when held on a RAM disk it rapidly fills and another T icon appears on the task bar.
Over the last few hours of recording just channel 2 Tellique has reported 13600 packets lost before FEC with 9740 recovered after FEC out of 641899 received.
I am now completely out of ideas to try except to buy a new card!!
Can anyone think of anything I might have missed?
Thanks again for your help.
Angus


David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

angusperfect wrote:
[]
I am now completely out of ideas to try except to buy a new card!!
Can anyone think of anything I might have missed?
Thanks again for your help.
Angus
Angus,

I was asked to look at PC with similarly poor performance with a SkyStar card. Couldn't resolve the problem in the time available, but I heard that the owner bought one of the new USB 2.0 hi-speed DVB World boxes, and the PC worked perfectly.

Two questions
- which version of the TelliCast software do you have?
- is the missing packets rate greater than one per hour?

You can use the Reset Statistics button and see how many missed, but not recovered, packets accumulate over a period of time. Perhaps turn off all processing and just gather data for an hour?

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: www.satsignal.eu
Email: davidtaylor@writeme.com


a_van_belle
 

Hello Angus,

You did rule out many causes already. Your latency values look fine.

But your fsy should not grow so rapidly.
FSY is a database that holds the raw datastream, whenever a file transmission is ended, segments are located and combined in to files and removed from the database.
But when packets/segments gets distorted they cannot be combined and fill up the FSY file(s).

Do you know if there are high powered transmitters around your location ?
Interference on the IF frequency of 1377 MHz could be a possible cause.

You can just receive Eurobird 9 on 11977 MHz using low band for
testing however. Open Setup4PC, and Edit Eurobird 9
Change "Switch: 11700 MHz" into "Switch: 11978 MHz"
Press OK and re-select ""Eumetcast :: Eurobird 9 East" from the system
tray.
This forces your setup to switch to high band only for frequencies
above 11978 instead of the normal 11700 Mhz.
But the higher intermediate frequency of 2227 MHz instead of 1377 MHz
will cause more signal loss between LNB and receiver.
The higher IF may be free of interference however.

If you are familiar with the DVBviewer software you could install this and try to receive a TV-channel on EB-9A and watch for reezes/blocking.

If this does not solve your problem, the only way to sort this problem out is to try your PC+receiver on another location/dish setup or another receiver/PC on your current location/dish.

Good luck,
Arne van Belle


angusperfect <angusperfect@...>
 

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "David J Taylor" <gm8arv@...> wrote:

angusperfect wrote:
[]
I am now completely out of ideas to try except to buy a new card!!
Can anyone think of anything I might have missed?
Thanks again for your help.
Angus
Angus,

I was asked to look at PC with similarly poor performance with a SkyStar
card. Couldn't resolve the problem in the time available, but I heard
that the owner bought one of the new USB 2.0 hi-speed DVB World boxes, and
the PC worked perfectly.

Two questions
- which version of the TelliCast software do you have?
- is the missing packets rate greater than one per hour?

You can use the Reset Statistics button and see how many missed, but not
recovered, packets accumulate over a period of time. Perhaps turn off all
processing and just gather data for an hour?

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: www.satsignal.eu
Email: davidtaylor@...
David,
I am running Tellicast 2.4.4a.
My lost packet rate just taking PID100 and 300 and saving data channel 2 is >5000 per hour before FEC and around 4000 per hour after FEC. I usually only get 1 or 2 segments in each of the channels in each 15 minute cycle. HRV is even worse.
Cheers
Angus


David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

angusperfect wrote:
[]
David,
I am running Tellicast 2.4.4a.
My lost packet rate just taking PID100 and 300 and saving data
channel 2 is >5000 per hour before FEC and around 4000 per hour after
FEC. I usually only get 1 or 2 segments in each of the channels in
each 15 minute cycle. HRV is even worse. Cheers
Angus
That's far too high, Angus, as I suspect you already know!

What happens if you don't process - just collect data? Do a power-down reboot as well.

Lost data can be caused by a high CPU, network I/O, or disk load.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: www.satsignal.eu
Email: davidtaylor@writeme.com


angusperfect <angusperfect@...>
 

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "David J Taylor" <gm8arv@...> wrote:

angusperfect wrote:
[]
David,
I am running Tellicast 2.4.4a.
My lost packet rate just taking PID100 and 300 and saving data
channel 2 is >5000 per hour before FEC and around 4000 per hour after
FEC. I usually only get 1 or 2 segments in each of the channels in
each 15 minute cycle. HRV is even worse. Cheers
Angus
That's far too high, Angus, as I suspect you already know!

What happens if you don't process - just collect data? Do a power-down
reboot as well.

Lost data can be caused by a high CPU, network I/O, or disk load.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: www.satsignal.eu
Email: davidtaylor@...
David,
Tried a power down and reboot- no difference....

I don't think the problem is associated with disk I/O or the processor loading. I ran a process monitor tool just looking at the disk I/O activity of Tellicasts tcrecv.exe. The read and writes to the .fsy file are all succesful as are the writes to the received files. The tool does show a buffer overflow when reading from the recv.ini file, which tcrecv seems to do now and again but I don't think these are significant.
I tried a 30 minute period of data collection with nothing else(apparently) running and the error rate was just as bad. Just for fun I then tried running a virus scan on the disk with the .fsy temp file at the same time as collecting data and this made no difference to the error rate either!
It appears to me that the data is corrupted either on the Skystar card before it gets to the network interface or in the transfer between the network interface and Tellicast.
I think I will try and snoop the traffic on the skystar2 port and see if that reveals anything!
cheers
Angus


a_van_belle
 

Hello Angus,

Not sure if snooping the traffic will tell you anything.
The stream that is captured is an encrypted DVB stream.

Did you try to switch to low band ?

There have been issues with certain mainboards.
The ASUS A8N does not deliver enough power over PCI and on some other PCs you have to avoid using certain PCI slots.

Receiving a TV channel for test with the enclosed dvbviewer TE (Technisat Edition) could show you if signal is fine and communications with the Skystar is working correctly.

Good luck,
Arne van Belle

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "angusperfect" <angusperfect@...> wrote:
David,
Tried a power down and reboot- no difference....

I don't think the problem is associated with disk I/O or the processor loading. I ran a process monitor tool just looking at the disk I/O activity of Tellicasts tcrecv.exe. The read and writes to the .fsy file are all succesful as are the writes to the received files. The tool does show a buffer overflow when reading from the recv.ini file, which tcrecv seems to do now and again but I don't think these are significant.
I tried a 30 minute period of data collection with nothing else(apparently) running and the error rate was just as bad. Just for fun I then tried running a virus scan on the disk with the .fsy temp file at the same time as collecting data and this made no difference to the error rate either!
It appears to me that the data is corrupted either on the Skystar card before it gets to the network interface or in the transfer between the network interface and Tellicast.
I think I will try and snoop the traffic on the skystar2 port and see if that reveals anything!
cheers
Angus


angusperfect <angusperfect@...>
 

Hello Arne,
You are right -snooping the traffic with Wireshark didn't help a lot. It did show that the checksum on about 1 in 100 of the packets sent from the SS2 port to Tellicast was incorrect, but I don't know if that is a locally generated checksum or an indication that the received data is bad.
I could not get the card (or maybe its the LNB) to tune 11977 on low band, however I did try tuning to the Test Card on 11977 using dbviewer. This channel locks and is perfect, with no dropouts, as long as I do not set any PIDs in the data services on setup4pc. As soon as I set up some data services PIDs on setup4pc, even if Tellicast is not running, I can see dropouts on video and sound on the tuned channel on dbviewer.
I have a wintv usb satellite receiver and that also works fine on Eurobird9 11977 test card, so I am confident that it is not an external interference issue. I seem to have plenty of signal strength and signal quality.
I have managed to get all the old drivers for the SS2 to work on my XP service pack 3 by rolling back the driver after installing setup4pc and server4pc with driver 4.5.0. However none of the previous drivers are any better than 4.5.0!
I checked the voltages on the SS2 card and none of them are low. I found a 3.3v coming onto the card at 3.35v and a 5v at 5.1v. I don't know enough about the PCI bus standard to know if there are any other voltages suplied.
My somewhat dispairing conclusion from all this is that for whatever reason the Skystar 2 card I have (HW 2.8 I think) when coupled up to my machine (Foxconn 975X7AB motherboard) is not suitable for reliably receiving Eumetcast.
I guess I will have to try a USB box instead.
Thanks to you and David for all your help on this.
Angus.

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "a_van_belle" <a.van.belle@...> wrote:

Hello Angus,

Not sure if snooping the traffic will tell you anything.
The stream that is captured is an encrypted DVB stream.

Did you try to switch to low band ?

There have been issues with certain mainboards.
The ASUS A8N does not deliver enough power over PCI and on some other PCs you have to avoid using certain PCI slots.

Receiving a TV channel for test with the enclosed dvbviewer TE (Technisat Edition) could show you if signal is fine and communications with the Skystar is working correctly.

Good luck,
Arne van Belle
--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "angusperfect" <angusperfect@> wrote:
David,
Tried a power down and reboot- no difference....

I don't think the problem is associated with disk I/O or the processor loading. I ran a process monitor tool just looking at the disk I/O activity of Tellicasts tcrecv.exe. The read and writes to the .fsy file are all succesful as are the writes to the received files. The tool does show a buffer overflow when reading from the recv.ini file, which tcrecv seems to do now and again but I don't think these are significant.
I tried a 30 minute period of data collection with nothing else(apparently) running and the error rate was just as bad. Just for fun I then tried running a virus scan on the disk with the .fsy temp file at the same time as collecting data and this made no difference to the error rate either!
It appears to me that the data is corrupted either on the Skystar card before it gets to the network interface or in the transfer between the network interface and Tellicast.
I think I will try and snoop the traffic on the skystar2 port and see if that reveals anything!
cheers
Angus


David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

angusperfect wrote:
[]
My somewhat dispairing conclusion from all this is that for whatever
reason the Skystar 2 card I have (HW 2.8 I think) when coupled up to
my machine (Foxconn 975X7AB motherboard) is not suitable for reliably
receiving Eumetcast.
I guess I will have to try a USB box instead.
Thanks to you and David for all your help on this.
Angus.
It's a pain, Angus, but you wouldn't be the first one with SkyStar problems. Far between, though. Fingers crossed, but the USB box seems to be a more reliable vet, and a better performer. I've not tried the 2.8 revision SkyStar cards myself, mine are one 2.3 and mixed 2.6B and 2.6 D, IIRC.

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: www.satsignal.eu
Email: davidtaylor@writeme.com


a_van_belle
 

Sorry Angus,

I have no experience with this 2.8 version.

In a final attempt you could try removing drivers once more, and put the card in the other PCI slot and install drivers again.

Good luck,
Arne van Belle


angusperfect <angusperfect@...>
 

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "a_van_belle" <a.van.belle@...> wrote:

Sorry Angus,

I have no experience with this 2.8 version.

In a final attempt you could try removing drivers once more, and put the card in the other PCI slot and install drivers again.

Good luck,
Arne van Belle
Arne,
I finally got round to trying the v2.8A Skystar PCI card with 4.5.0 drivers,Client v5.5 disk etc, in an old pc with a Celeron 1.3ghz processor, 512mbyte ram, an old 40 Gbyte disk and windows XP SP3. Can you believe it!-It works with no lost packets and no lost segments!!
I still have no idea why it didn't work in the other PC, but at least I now have a useable system.
Thanks for your help,
Angus


David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

angusperfect wrote:
[]
Arne,
I finally got round to trying the v2.8A Skystar PCI card with 4.5.0
drivers,Client v5.5 disk etc, in an old pc with a Celeron 1.3ghz
processor, 512mbyte ram, an old 40 Gbyte disk and windows XP SP3. Can
you believe it!-It works with no lost packets and no lost segments!!
I still have no idea why it didn't work in the other PC, but at least
I now have a useable system.
Thanks for your help,
Angus
Angus,

Yes, I can believe it! In the past, with EUMETCast, we have sometimes found that Intel processors (and chipsets) to better than AMD in certain circumstances, although it's been difficult (if not impossible) to tie such circumstances down. Similarly, some systems seem to cause problems.

It would therefore be interesting to see a comparison between your working and non-working systems:

- processor
- memory
- motherboard
- chipset
- memory
- disk size and connection
- network connection
- operating system
- DVB connection
- CPU load
- memory load

and anything else you can think of!

Cheers,
David
--
SatSignal software - quality software written to your requirements
Web: www.satsignal.eu
Email: davidtaylor@writeme.com