Date   

(No subject)

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "Trevor David" <tdavid@d...> wrote:
Looking at the emails over the last few weeks it appears that
there are many more problems with the set up that is beeing
attempted. Has any one asked Eumestsat what they are recieving and
if the same problems are apparent with them? If we find out they are
in the same boat then we can take heart it is not us, but if all is
OK with them then....... we are in trouble.

Trevor

EUMETSAT do monitor for missing segments and they run (I understand)
both similar systems to ourselves and Unix-based monitoring
systems. They do see the occasional missing segments (the same that
we all see), but not the very high segment loss that a minority of
this group have reported (I believe). Sorry if this sounds like
guesswork but I am not based in Darmstadt!

Cheers,
David


Re: Missing segments

Robert Moore
 

Dear Dave M. and Dave C.
I only get the full Sun between April and mid-September. From now to late March
I will only see the Sun at the bottom of the garden. I'm on a north-facing
slope with high tress to the south, there is a shallow dip in the tree- line
around south which enables me to line up an HRPT dish until late October. The
_only_ line I have on Hotbird is from the place I have my dish. The erector
even tried the top of the chimney, to no avail. The bottom of the garden would
be unsuitable for various reasons including obstruction by my own trees. In my
current 'slot' I have about 5 degrees clearance over the trees.
The mounting pole is on brackets but it is also braced back against the wall
with a five-foot metal pole to give a rigid triangular structure.
The other 'side of the trees' is over the road, half a mile up a hill, through
the woods and the garden of another house. So some of us have no option but to
go high!
What we do for our hobby - anything but chop down trees (or move house)!
Let's wait and see if there is something other than the inadequacies of our
mountings before we (I) start climbing ladders. Plainly a lot of us are
currently having problems. Has anyone kept count of how many of us are still
having serious segment losses?

Robert



Quoting Dave Martin <Dave.Martin@manx.net>:


and to reinforce Dave C's comments -

Our farmhouse has a shelter-belt of trees, and I was loathe to mount a dish
high on the house, so beyond the trees I have a 1.2m dish =at ground level=
on a substantial mount with lots of concrete ballast

As part of monitoring experiments, in the style of a mirror galvanometer, I
affixed a laser diode module to the rim of the dish projected onto a board
and pencil-tracked the deflection - a "good" gale only gave about 15
arc-seconds of movement of the dish

The second hand Channel Master dish I'm using for MSG has good
rib-reinforcement, but the 1m pressed steel dish I was using for Met-7, even
when mounted on a solid steam-pipe mounting, had noticeable flex and I
resorted to a number of wooden struts self-tappered at the rim and running
back/down to the ground to stabilise the rim. Before I stabilised it, I
could see the equivalent of a couple of degrees movement in a good storm !

Also, don't be afraid of a long lead-in with about an 85m (eighty five metre)
of CT100 lead into the house.

Dave M

----- Original Message -----
From: Timestep
To: MSG-1@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments


My thoughts, which should have been illustrated with a picture, are that
all
the installations I have seen of 88cm dishes, the brackets used are barely
capable of holding a 45cm. And why so high, if a garden gets the sun,
and
it would be a strange garden that couldn't, then the dish can be at ground
level, or certainly not waving high in the sky on flimsy brackets !

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------------------------------
Professor Robert Moore
Department of Sociology, Social Policy
and Social Work Studies
The University of Liverpool
Eleanor Rathbone Building
Bedford Street South
Liverpool
L69 7ZA

tel and fax: 44 (0) 1352 714456


Re: Missing segments

Trevor Davies <g0jix@...>
 

Hi

The mystery deepens!

I bought my 88cm dish from Timestep in March 03.
It is mounted at ground level on a metal tube and anchored to the wooden garden fence to limit lateral movement.
It was installed early April using the Status facility in Set4PC to obtain maximum Signal quality,which can vary from 60% - 70%,SNR 9.7 - 10.8 and BER all 0000,s and no ill affect on imagery in any way.
It has not been altered since day one.
I have posted a photo at http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/MSG-1/lst titled 'Dishview.jpg' This is the view my dish has and I think it can be said it is not ideal,prior to this photo the trees carried a lot more foliage.
I have,judging from the mail,had results comparable with many and far better than others
I'm not sure this helps,but may save some from premature baldness.

73 de Trevor G0JIX
All mail scanned with Norton.


Lateral thinking

Roger Mawhinney <roger@...>
 

We seem to be missing something here.

I've been running a single PC system (Athlon 2200+, 1Gb memory, Raid 0
disks, XP Pro) and never really checked missing segments assuming that I
would naturally miss a lot more than the dedicated 2 PC systems. However,
over the past few days, I've realised that I'm probably on a par with most
users. I'm currently running MSGDataManager, Outlook, Norton Anti-virus,
Office Indexing, Defrag, Climate Prediction and probably a load of other
junk I don't even realise. When I use the PC it's for mostly really serious
Photoshop work as well as the background remote imaging, yet I do not feel I
am seriously disadvantaged in terms of quality and lost segments. Why not?

If it's not the PC, what else would cause serious segment loss? Is it
Eumetsat? Do they give any statistics as to lost or delayed segments?
Perhaps it is time for a bit more investigation away from the obvious over
loaded PC.

Roger Mawhinney
Lurgan, N. Ireland


(No subject)

Trevor David <tdavid@...>
 

Looking at the emails over the last few weeks it appears that there are many more problems with the set up that is beeing attempted. Has any one asked Eumestsat what they are recieving and if the same problems are apparent with them? If we find out they are in the same boat then we can take heart it is not us, but if all is OK with them then....... we are in trouble.

Regards

Trevor





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Re: Missing segments

Dave Martin <Dave.Martin@...>
 

and to reinforce Dave C's comments -

Our farmhouse has a shelter-belt of trees, and I was loathe to mount a dish high on the house, so beyond the trees I have a 1.2m dish =at ground level= on a substantial mount with lots of concrete ballast

As part of monitoring experiments, in the style of a mirror galvanometer, I affixed a laser diode module to the rim of the dish projected onto a board and pencil-tracked the deflection - a "good" gale only gave about 15 arc-seconds of movement of the dish

The second hand Channel Master dish I'm using for MSG has good rib-reinforcement, but the 1m pressed steel dish I was using for Met-7, even when mounted on a solid steam-pipe mounting, had noticeable flex and I resorted to a number of wooden struts self-tappered at the rim and running back/down to the ground to stabilise the rim. Before I stabilised it, I could see the equivalent of a couple of degrees movement in a good storm !

Also, don't be afraid of a long lead-in with about an 85m (eighty five metre) of CT100 lead into the house.

Dave M

----- Original Message -----
From: Timestep
To: MSG-1@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [MSG-1] Re:Missing segments


My thoughts, which should have been illustrated with a picture, are that all
the installations I have seen of 88cm dishes, the brackets used are barely
capable of holding a 45cm. And why so high, if a garden gets the sun, and
it would be a strange garden that couldn't, then the dish can be at ground
level, or certainly not waving high in the sky on flimsy brackets !

************************************************************************
This email has been scanned by the Manxnet Mail Plus anti-virus system.
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Re: Missing segments

Timestep <Information@...>
 

From: Dave Cawley
Timestep Dartmouth England
e-mail Information@Time-step.com
Web site http://www.Time-step.com
Tel. +44 (0)1803 833366
Fax. +44 (0)1803 839498

My thoughts, which should have been illustrated with a picture, are that all
the installations I have seen of 88cm dishes, the brackets used are barely
capable of holding a 45cm. And why so high, if a garden gets the sun, and
it would be a strange garden that couldn't, then the dish can be at ground
level, or certainly not waving high in the sky on flimsy brackets !

Dave


Re: Definitions and questions!

Timestep <Information@...>
 

From: Dave Cawley
Timestep Dartmouth England
e-mail Information@Time-step.com
Web site http://www.Time-step.com
Tel. +44 (0)1803 833366
Fax. +44 (0)1803 839498

You just can't believe specifications, it probably says +/- 1dB somewhere,
or if not, what is the tolerance ? And anyway, manufactures have been known
to just invent figures, who can prove them wrong, or right ?

Dave


Re: Definitions and questions!

Guy Martin <agm@...>
 

Haven't checked the maker's site myself but do they offer tech support by e-mail, might be worth a try.

Cheers, Guy

----- Original Message -----
From: David Taylor
To: MSG-1@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 5:29 PM
Subject: [MSG-1] Re: Definitions and questions!


--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Sewards" <alan.sewards@c...>
wrote:
> David,
> Looks as though the 2.3 card is the more sensitive, taking the
1/2 at 27.7 Ms/s figures, by about 1 dB.
>
> Best regards - Alan

Yes, that was the way I read it as well. I just didn't want to
think that the card I had just replaced was actually better than its
replacement! Presumably this means that you need at least 1dB
greater SNR with the newer card (or USB version) than with the older
card for the same performance. Perhaps it isn't that simple....

Cheers,
David



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Re: Missing segments

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 3:57 PM
[]
Modern and cheap meters are just fine. But having looked at several
users
installations I can see the problem. I'll expand on this tomorrow.

Regards

Dave
What are your thoughts, Dave?

David


Re: Definitions and questions!

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Sewards" <alan.sewards@c...>
wrote:
David,
Looks as though the 2.3 card is the more sensitive, taking the
1/2 at 27.7 Ms/s figures, by about 1 dB.

Best regards - Alan
Yes, that was the way I read it as well. I just didn't want to
think that the card I had just replaced was actually better than its
replacement! Presumably this means that you need at least 1dB
greater SNR with the newer card (or USB version) than with the older
card for the same performance. Perhaps it isn't that simple....

Cheers,
David


Re: Definitions and questions!

Alan Sewards <alan.sewards@...>
 

David,
Looks as though the 2.3 card is the more sensitive, taking the 1/2 at
27.7 Ms/s figures, by about 1 dB.

Best regards - Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Taylor" <david-taylor@blueyonder.co.uk>
To: <MSG-1@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:20 PM
Subject: [MSG-1] Re: Definitions and questions!


--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "pa3aod" <harms@a...> wrote:
Hi David,

I found some info on the WEB about the B2C2 chip(and software),
look at the following web-pages www.bbti.us and www.b2c2.com.

Bert PA3AOD
Thanks, Bert. I'd found those pages later by searching on B2C2. I
got an outline data sheet on the main chip on the card (FlexCop) and
on the "TechniSat" card (which seems to actually be a B2C2 card).
the plot thickens!

I am trying to get a better undertsanding of how the system works,
and what the so-called quality indicator means. At least in the
data sheet they talk about power (dBm) into a 75 ohm impedance, so I
am on familiar ground there. I haven't yet worked out from the
Eb/No threshold tables whether the 2.3 or the 2.6B is the more
sensitive card!

Cheers,
David

chip: <http://www.b2c2.com/docs/flexcop.pdf>

card:

<http://www.bbti.us/download/documentation/Sky2PC_Product_Specificati
on.pdf>

(beware of URL wrapping)



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Re: Dish

johnrigsec@...
 

In a message dated 07-11-03 04:54:59 GMT Standard Time, a.van.belle@hccnet.nl
writes:

Modern LNB's are only suited for offset dishes. The feedhorn is
different to get a smaller beamwidth, compared to most prime focus
dishes with F/D=0.5 (offsets have F/D of 0.6 to 0.7).

You can put a modern LNB in the focus of a prime focus dish, but you
will only use 40 to 60% of its surface, giving low signal level.
Arne,

Thanks for your useful information.
I knew there was a difference between (early) prime focus RF equipment and
present
day offset equipment but not sure quite what.
I suspect I'm not the only person to learn something new.

My early prime focus LNC's (as they were called in those days) have wider
apertures
and scalar feeds.

But you will be shocked by the noise figure of these oldies, 1.3 to
1.8 was excellent these days !
Nowadays you have 0.6 to 0.7 dB for 1/5 of the price !
Indeed, my first 10/11 GHz LNC from Avantek had a noise figure of 1.8 dB and
cost,
in 1986, £1,200!

Sorry, a bit off topic for MSG, but it was through C-band and Ku-band
satellite TV
that I got into weather satellites.
And the rest, as they say, is history.

One thing, for us in the UK who are only supposed to install ONE dish per
property,
take a look at the ultimate(?) multi satellite dish system at <A HREF="www.wavefrontier.com">
www.wavefrontier.com</A>
you can have your (multiple) satellite, satellite TV and EUMETCast, from one
dish!

Regards,
John.
RIG


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Reception fluctuations

Dave Martin <Dave.Martin@...>
 

just to throw in another idea - I wonder if frequency drift is playing any part here?

The B2C2 receiver cards have a Xtal osc and should be quite stable; but as I understand LNBs they don't have a Xtal oscillator but a "Dielectric Reasonant Oscillator" (DRO) which is not so stable - and, I was wondering, perhaps it is temperature sensitive? (and suffering from the onset of Autumn?)

I haven't been able to confirm anything in my native MSG setup, but, in common with the general scepticism over the "indicators" reported by the Tellique client, have carried out following experiment which led to the above suggestion :

I have tried look at things "raw" from the LNB but spectrum analyser I have which covers those LNB output frequencies wasn't stable enough, so ....

I have an ex-broadcast-relay analog receiver (Intercontinental MT900 / Agile Omni) which has both AFC and AGC which can be manually disabled. It also has metering for Carrier/Noise, Signal Strength, and Tuning; and I have used the signal strength in the past for alignment and watching rain fade. I understand that the "Tune" metering (scaled +/- 2MHz ) is some form of indication for a PLL error signal from the AFC or similar, and normally doesn't vary much - BUT as an experiment, with the receiver tuned to an analog transmission with the AFC off, I tried cooling an old LNB and I got a noticeable change - although with the AFC back on it was more than powerful enough to pull the rx back on tune.

This receiver setup / internal meter is unfortunately not able to directly meter a digital transmission - but I have found a way and it showed the same sensitivity. Even though it couldn't demodulate it, I tuned the receiver to the frequency used for the digital MSG hotbird downlink, and with the receiver bandwidth set to the max 36Mhz I picked-off the 70MHz IF to a Marconi TF2370 s/a - this only goes to 110MHz but is ideal to monitor 70MHz IF and has dual digital storage - storing one trace before cooling and superimposing a second after cooling showed a mass shift of the whole of the 'digital hump' by just over 1MHz.

Perhaps, if the link budget is already marginal, then =maybe= this is contributing - either drifting in&out, or drifting out and the card is then having to re-lock?

Dave M
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Re: missing segments

Alan Sewards <alan.sewards@...>
 

Arne,
I agree with your list except that I did not miss the 1815 cycle
segments. They were not reported as missing in MDM, and the images appear to
be present on the hard disk.

Best regards - Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: "a_van_belle" <a.van.belle@hccnet.nl>
To: <MSG-1@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 11:59 PM
Subject: [MSG-1] Re: missing segments


--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "David Taylor" <david-taylor@b...>
wrote:
Robert, there have been some issues today, but the 16:15 cycle just
completed seems perfect.
Quite some missing segments today.
They could be local but my receive PC has been running well.

Please notify me if someone had less missing segments !
<
snip
<
Cycle: 1815
msg-ch04, seg: 8
lrit-ch01, seg: 8
lrit-ch03, seg: 8
lrit-ch04, seg: 8
Key: msg=HRIT lrit=LRIT
01=VIS006 02=VIS008 03=IR016 04=IR039
05=WV062 06=WV073 07=IR087 08=IR097
09=IR108 10=IR120 11=IR134 12=HRV
_____________________
Missing rebroadcast & derived segments report
Cycle: 0000
g9-ir, seg: 2
Key: gnn=FSD cla=CLA clai=CLAI clm=CLM cth=CTH



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Re: Definitions and questions!

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

I think this might be it.

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/TDA8060ATS_C2.html

Peter
Not convinced! The package is wrong.

But the two ICs in the tuner are SL1925 (zero-IF demodulator) and
TSA5059 (2.7GHz synthesiser). Perhapss the chip outside the tuner
does the analog to digital demodulation? The FlexCop II chip is
defined in the data sheet. The data sheets for those chips makes
fascinating reading.

Cheers,
David


Re: Definitions and questions!

David J Taylor GM8ARV 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🇪🇺
 

--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "pa3aod" <harms@a...> wrote:
Hi David,

I found some info on the WEB about the B2C2 chip(and software),
look at the following web-pages www.bbti.us and www.b2c2.com.

Bert PA3AOD
Thanks, Bert. I'd found those pages later by searching on B2C2. I
got an outline data sheet on the main chip on the card (FlexCop) and
on the "TechniSat" card (which seems to actually be a B2C2 card).
the plot thickens!

I am trying to get a better undertsanding of how the system works,
and what the so-called quality indicator means. At least in the
data sheet they talk about power (dBm) into a 75 ohm impedance, so I
am on familiar ground there. I haven't yet worked out from the
Eb/No threshold tables whether the 2.3 or the 2.6B is the more
sensitive card!

Cheers,
David

chip: <http://www.b2c2.com/docs/flexcop.pdf>

card:

<http://www.bbti.us/download/documentation/Sky2PC_Product_Specificati
on.pdf>

(beware of URL wrapping)


Re: Definitions and questions!

Peter Benney <tugboat@...>
 

The B2C2 card is purely digitial, so that doesn't
help, I can't find the part number for the tuner, and the chip next
to it is hidden under a heatsink!
David,

I think this might be it.

http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/pip/TDA8060ATS_C2.html

Peter


Re: missing segments

Robert Moore
 

Quoting a_van_belle <a.van.belle@hccnet.nl>:


Robert do you have TV4PC under Start, programs, DVB ?
No and the supplied Tellique disk only lists:
'SkyStar2_4_T-systems_EUMETSAT_data_only'


Robert



David Taylor, now you have version 4.2.8 running with the new setup,
is TV4PC installed by default?

TV4PC is not the only way to view TV, other viewers can be used once
the skystar drivers are installed.
Did anyone else try to install and start DVBviewer after the official
Eumetcast installation procedure?

At my work at this moment, but I will try this evening to get a
viewer working.

Greetings,
Arne van Belle




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------------------------------
Professor Robert Moore
Department of Sociology, Social Policy
and Social Work Studies
The University of Liverpool
Eleanor Rathbone Building
Bedford Street South
Liverpool
L69 7ZA

tel and fax: 44 (0) 1352 714456


Re: Definitions and questions!

pa3aod <harms@...>
 

Hi David,

I found some info on the WEB about the B2C2 chip(and software), look
at the following web-pages www.bbti.us and www.b2c2.com.

Bert PA3AOD



--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "David Taylor" <david-taylor@b...>
wrote:
--- In MSG-1@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Sewards" <alan.sewards@c...>
wrote:
David,
Arne and I discussed this on MSG-1 group on 12 October. I'm
am
fairly sure that Signal Quality is a measure of S/N, and probably
improves if a splitter is fitted because of reduction of overload
or
subtle changes in receiver parameters with changes in signal level.
Easiest way to check is to exchange the splitter for an attenuator!

Best regards - Alan
Yes, I found that after a little looking. I have tried to find the
specs of the B2C2 chip and other component of the SkyStar card, in
the hope of finding something more like an engineering manual that
I
could understand! The B2C2 card is purely digitial, so that
doesn't
help, I can't find the part number for the tuner, and the chip next
to it is hidden under a heatsink!

In any case, if all these cards need lower signal strength to
perform well, shouldn't AGC be doing something about that?
Is "our"
transponder being hidden in a mush of intermodulation from the
others?

Cheers,
David