Topics

Pyrmont CSR


Petan
 

Thanks John!

 

Cheers Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Thursday, 12 April 2018 2:32 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: [LRRSA] Re: Pyrmont CSR

 




Molasses sounds like a possibility.

John





John Browning
 

Molasses sounds like a possibility.

John


Petan
 

Folks, I am still following up on the molasses help I received the other week .

 

I am checking why, in 1897, the cargo list of a CSR Condong mill, Tweed River, bound ship would include empty casks listed as for CSR, as well as the to be expected coal from Newcastle for CSR Condong. In July 1897 the Langley Brothers ‘Heroine’, an 1894 Nambucca River built 98 feet schooner, was anchored off Coolangatta waiting to enter the Tweed River. Storms generated by an East Coast low lashed at the boat causing waves to break over her deck, staving in her hatches. She slipped her anchors and she was driven ashore close to Coolangatta Creek at North Kirra. Fortunately, the captain and crew landed safely but she was badly damaged and abandoned.   Sources include The Sydney Morning Herald, 27 July 1897, p5 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article28252432  

 

My suggestion for the empty casks would be to send out molasses, so I wonder if any other person’s research has found molasses was transported in casks in that era?   

 

On a side note, we are members of the Geocaching GPS hobby and we have a cache at the probably wreck site of the Heroine which is also close to the probably site of the August 1846 wreck of the Coolangatta, a 63 foot 88 ton top sail schooner built in the Shoalhaven area of southern NSW in 1843. She was in the area to pick-up cedar logs harvested amongst the hills of the Tweed Valley. Coolangatta QLD is named after this 1846 wreck. Our geocaching user name is Petan, same as my Railpage name. Our geocaching page Has more  https://www.geocaching.com/geocache/GC5M69F_coolangatta-or-heroine?guid=f948ee9c-a59e-438e-96ca-d1c105c9d06b

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2018 5:31 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

 

      Indeed Kevin, My Dad reports workmen who spent time in the empty fermenting vats becoming somewhat merry. They also used beryllium copper tools, to prevent any chance of a spark igniting the vapour. The sugar dust was also highly explosive, a spark from a conveyor, at one time blew out all the windows of the warehouse, into the harbour.

  I rather wonder if the molasses loaded on rail at Condong, went to Pyrmont at all. There were many other users of it. Stock food makers use. Bob


Petan
 

Thanks Tony and I am very thankful!!

 

That accounts for all four of the former carriage underframe LCT wagons listed in the 1936 NSWGR Carrying Capacity of Goods Wagons, Coal Hoppers, Horse Boxes, Carriage and Motor Trucks.  Jackpot!!!

 

Also of interest are the years of 1920 and 1911.  Crabbes Creek started in 1921 which accounts for 1920 and 1911 shows cane from the earlier areas was still active with volumes requiring three new wagons or replacements for older stock.  

 

Thanks again!

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Thursday, 8 March 2018 8:25 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

 

In the book "Coaching Stock of the NSWGR" by Cooke, Estell, Beckhaus and Seckhold, there is mention of the 22ft bodied, 11ft 6in wheelbase 4 wheeled carriages built in 1881 by Moyes & Donald in Wickham, Newcastle for use on the Northern system. Second Class car 52N (later various renumberings in different years as 289, 654 and finally 289A) ended up as condemned at Lismore in 1912. The book then says this carriage ".. Lay idle there for 8 years until 1920 when it was ordered to be converted into a Cane Truck".

 

Also, there are mention of the Ritchie Cars of 1883 (21ft body, 11' wb), and again quoting from the book: ".. A number of the longest surviving in Passenger Service ended their days on the isolated Tweed Railway, headquartered at Lismore. Two of these had their underframes used as Cane Trucks...". (69N condemned 8/10, converted 1911, and 74N also condemned 8/10, converted 1911). 

 

The Hudson built cars (21ft body, 11'6" wb) of 1885 shows 1st class car No.86 also being condemned at Lismore in Aug 1910 and the underframe being converted in 1911 to Cane Truck.

 

The 4 wheel Cane Trucks were it seems NOT built using segments of longer bogie passenger underframes, but built on actual 4wh underframes to give 24' 6" over buffers. 52N, 69N, 74N and 86 were the only specific references I could find to conversion to Cane Truck, but there are other numerous 4 wheeled Carriages that show their final end as "Unknown" that could also have been utilised.

 

Cheers.


Tony Smith
 

In the book "Coaching Stock of the NSWGR" by Cooke, Estell, Beckhaus and Seckhold, there is mention of the 22ft bodied, 11ft 6in wheelbase 4 wheeled carriages built in 1881 by Moyes & Donald in Wickham, Newcastle for use on the Northern system. Second Class car 52N (later various renumberings in different years as 289, 654 and finally 289A) ended up as condemned at Lismore in 1912. The book then says this carriage ".. Lay idle there for 8 years until 1920 when it was ordered to be converted into a Cane Truck".

Also, there are mention of the Ritchie Cars of 1883 (21ft body, 11' wb), and again quoting from the book: ".. A number of the longest surviving in Passenger Service ended their days on the isolated Tweed Railway, headquartered at Lismore. Two of these had their underframes used as Cane Trucks...". (69N condemned 8/10, converted 1911, and 74N also condemned 8/10, converted 1911). 

The Hudson built cars (21ft body, 11'6" wb) of 1885 shows 1st class car No.86 also being condemned at Lismore in Aug 1910 and the underframe being converted in 1911 to Cane Truck.

The 4 wheel Cane Trucks were it seems NOT built using segments of longer bogie passenger underframes, but built on actual 4wh underframes to give 24' 6" over buffers. 52N, 69N, 74N and 86 were the only specific references I could find to conversion to Cane Truck, but there are other numerous 4 wheeled Carriages that show their final end as "Unknown" that could also have been utilised.

Cheers.



From: "'Peter Cokley' yahoomail@... [LRRSA]"
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Monday, 5 March 2018, 11:21
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

Quite an interesting topic as the standard gauge NSWGR aspect of the Tweed sugar cane and processed sugar  / molasses transportation shows some ‘interesting’ aspects for those LRRSA folk who study the wagons that operated on long disused rail routes. Sugar Cane wagon were listed in the 1945 version of the state wide NSWGR General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I. The wagon data included wheel arrangements (bogie or 4W), length over buffers / couplers as well as carrying capacity. The cane wagon of particular interest is the LCT, described as ***Old Carriage Underframe*** 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That 1945 GA is found at http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/appendix/documents/
 
But the LCT, described as ‘Old Carriage Underframe’ on that 1945 GA, are listed as four wheel in the February 1969 NSWGR state wide General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I, as follows; LCT 4W, 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That suggests the passenger presumably bogie gear was swapped for 4 wheel style in the cane rebuild. Maybe the passenger bogies were reused under other passenger cars.  

Cheers
Peter Cokley
 
 
 
 
 



Petan
 

Just rechecked my file and realised I had two LCT plans. The one I initially checked had the EE Lucy signature but the other had metric plus imperial data plus the page was of the modern layout and showed text (brake change over load). That suggest the LCT lasted to the NSWGR change over to metric plans.

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2018 9:42 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

 

Hi Brian and everyone,

What I initially wondered was maybe they just reused the old carriage frame to build the LCT and everything under it and above it was redone.  But it puzzled me as it was seemingly important enough for someone to quote it in the rollingstock list in the 1945 General Appendix. So, I did a bit of checking just now and discovered NSW ‘American Cars’, as an example, had an underframe of four 8in x 3in longitudinal timbers running the full length of the cars between headstocks. These were connected by various cross members and steel rods supporting drawgear etc. Thus cane wagons built using ‘Old Carriage Underframes’ could mean just reusing parts of some or all of these longitudinal timbers and cross pieces? My suspicion now is it was perhaps more of a ‘book entry’ to show the re-use of parts and a way of accounting for the costs of building the cane wagon.

 

(snipped to save emails)


Petan
 

Hi Brian and everyone,

What I initially wondered was maybe they just reused the old carriage frame to build the LCT and everything under it and above it was redone.  But it puzzled me as it was seemingly important enough for someone to quote it in the rollingstock list in the 1945 General Appendix. So, I did a bit of checking just now and discovered NSW ‘American Cars’, as an example, had an underframe of four 8in x 3in longitudinal timbers running the full length of the cars between headstocks. These were connected by various cross members and steel rods supporting drawgear etc. Thus cane wagons built using ‘Old Carriage Underframes’ could mean just reusing parts of some or all of these longitudinal timbers and cross pieces? My suspicion now is it was perhaps more of a ‘book entry’ to show the re-use of parts and a way of accounting for the costs of building the cane wagon.

 

I then wondered about the length of the cane wagon built using carriage underframe (LCT) compared to some carriage types used a possible donors. The LCT was 24ft 6in over buffers and the only coaching stock in the 1969 General Appendix that were anywhere near as short as that was 37ft prison van bogie, 40ft 9.25in Laboratory Test Car (No. L550) and education cars such as Education Cars; Lecture Room 23ft 8 in (Nos 1489, 1492, 1495,1498), Mobile Workshop 43ft 9 in (Nos 1491, 1494, 1497, 1500) and Mobile Workshop 43ft 9in (Nos 1490, 1493, 1496, 1499). Even an LFX was 52 ft 2.5in. Maybe they chopped one car frame to get two cane wagons?

 

The LCT wagon plan has 24ft 6in over buffers, 20ft 10 body, 3ft 6 in wheels on a 4wheel, not bogie, arrangement. The LCT plan has the text ‘Old Carriage Underframe’ and EE Lucy’s signature so before he retired age of 71 in February 1932 https://eveleighstories.com.au/story/chief-mechanical-engineer

 

The 1936 Carrying Capacity of Goods Wagons etc shows only four LCTs in traffic, 23 CT wagons and two BCT (bogie) and the 1962 NSWGR ‘Carrying Capacity of Goods Wagons etc reveals there were 22 CT and 11 BCT in traffic and no LCTs listed in 1962 but the LCT was listed as a vehicle type without quantities in the 1969 General Appendix.

 

I copied that carriage frame description from P.6 of Wayne Dempsey’s story in Australian Railway History September 2014. The Endnotes show the source as ‘Coaching stock of the NSW railways’, volume 2  by David Cooke [et al], Eveleigh Press.

 

I think chasing up company details and wagon data helps illustrate how the traffic on long closed lines was handled. In this case we are referring to sugar cane stalks from Crabbes Creek to Condong Mill which was a distance of 27.92 km or 17 miles 28 chains. Peter Neve has supplied 1967 images at Crabbes Ck with loco 5163 with a 4 wheeler cane wagon immediately behind the tender and bogie wagons as well. David Mewes has advised his records show only bogie NSWGR cane wagons at Condong in 1969. So a possible wagon type change between 1967 and 1969?

In the pre Crabbes Creek (1921) era, the NSWGR had high volumes of cane traffic (around 15,000 tons at least annually late 1890s) from between Bangalow and Lismore as well as the Mullumbimby areas before the change from cane to dairy especially once Norco was established. That meant cane wagons were part of the NSWGR fleet at least as far back as 1894 when the Lismore Mullumbimby (15 May 1894) Murwillumbah Condong line (24 December 1894) opened.

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Tuesday, 6 March 2018 5:37 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR



On 05/03/2018 00:21, 'Peter Cokley' yahoomail@... [LRRSA] wrote:

But the LCT, described as ‘Old Carriage Underframe’ on that 1945 GA, are listed as four wheel in the February 1969 NSWGR state wide General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I, as follows; LCT 4W, 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That suggests the passenger presumably bogie gear was swapped for 4 wheel style in the cane rebuild. Maybe the passenger bogies were reused under other passenger cars.  

I can't see how it would be practical to "swap bogie gear for 4-wheel', as they are so different.

But maybe some old 4-wheel passenger cars were still knocking around? I don't know about Australia, but some 4-wheel passenger cars were still about in the UK in 1945, and 'modern' 4-wheelers were still running around in Germany until well after the war; in fact some new steel bodies were built on the steel frames of wooden bodied 4-wheelers that were destroyed by fire in the bombing, as a way of getting the railways back in action.

-- 
Brian Rumary
England
brian(at)rumary.co.uk



B.Rumary
 

On 05/03/2018 00:21, 'Peter Cokley' yahoomail@... [LRRSA] wrote:
But the LCT, described as ‘Old Carriage Underframe’ on that 1945 GA, are listed as four wheel in the February 1969 NSWGR state wide General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I, as follows; LCT 4W, 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That suggests the passenger presumably bogie gear was swapped for 4 wheel style in the cane rebuild. Maybe the passenger bogies were reused under other passenger cars.  

I can't see how it would be practical to "swap bogie gear for 4-wheel', as they are so different.

But maybe some old 4-wheel passenger cars were still knocking around? I don't know about Australia, but some 4-wheel passenger cars were still about in the UK in 1945, and 'modern' 4-wheelers were still running around in Germany until well after the war; in fact some new steel bodies were built on the steel frames of wooden bodied 4-wheelers that were destroyed by fire in the bombing, as a way of getting the railways back in action.

-- 
Brian Rumary
England
brian(at)rumary.co.uk


John Browning
 

I imagine that CO2 may well have been a valueless by-product vented to the atmosphere if produced in manufacturing.

John


Petan
 

Annoying typo alert in the previous email re the Robb section although astute readers would have worked it out. It should have been; The father was the well-known John Robb etc etc

 

The 1962 NSWGR ‘Carrying Capacity of Goods Wagons, Coal Hoppers, Horse Boxes and Motor Trucks’, P.17, reveals there were 22 CT and 11 BCT (bogie) sugar cane wagons in traffic. The MX molasses tankers were listed on P. 23 of this 1962 document as tank wagons of 2,200-gallon capacity tank wagons. The tanks were 18 ft 0in x 8 ft 11 in. The tare was 10 t 10 cwt and 6 in traffic. There were shown as owned by CSR.

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Monday, 5 March 2018 10:21 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

 

Thanks everybody for all these revealing responses and I’ll enjoy spending time analysing them in depth!!  Also just downloaded that City of Sydney historical map and it is quite revealing.   

 

Quite an interesting topic as the standard gauge NSWGR aspect of the Tweed sugar cane and processed sugar  / molasses transportation shows some ‘interesting’ aspects for those LRRSA folk who study the wagons that operated on long disused rail routes. Sugar Cane wagon were listed in the 1945 version of the state wide NSWGR General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I. The wagon data included wheel arrangements (bogie or 4W), length over buffers / couplers as well as carrying capacity. The cane wagon of particular interest is the LCT, described as ***Old Carriage Underframe*** 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That 1945 GA is found at http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/appendix/documents/

 

But the LCT, described as ‘Old Carriage Underframe’ on that 1945 GA, are listed as four wheel in the February 1969 NSWGR state wide General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I, as follows; LCT 4W, 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That suggests the passenger presumably bogie gear was swapped for 4 wheel style in the cane rebuild. Maybe the passenger bogies were reused under other passenger cars.  

 

I am using the standard research method of ‘following the money trail’ for the Tweed sugar tramway research, by ‘shaking the money tree’ and seeing what titbits fall at my feet! The Tweed Regional Museum staff are helping me close in on this corporate money trail as they have given me access to their files including the Robb family and other sugar data. Dare I introduce a pun and say it is ‘juicy data’!! Once I started on the Robb family file for the Cudgen sugar mill / tramway enterprise, I quickly discovered it was a father and son job at Cudgen, with other offspring in other parts of the Robb business.  The father was the well John Robb, commemorated by Robb’s Monument on the Cairns Kuranda railway in north Queensland. The Tweed files revealed him as John Frederick Robb, the father, who died in 1896, so clearly not the Robb who sold the mill / tramway etc to CSR many years after his death! The third son was John Alexander Robb, who entered this chronicle as a major Cudgen executive around 1892. John Alexander Robb, the son, was born 5 September 1870, so was 21 in September 1891.  John Frederick Robb, the father, was usually listed as John Robb in the Government Gazettes and his son was usually shown as John Alexander Robb or John A  Robb in the NSW Gazettes. The museum has given me a scan of the **handwritten** (Robb Casey Julius) Cudgen Robb & Co December 1882 agreement and a copy of that PDF is now safely with the LR editors. The museum has also given me their preferred acknowledgement style.  I will not reveal too much more on the Robb corporate money trail before I submit the article to LR..

 

CSR Condong’s corporate history, like Robb and Co, also involved a father and son in executive positions. The father was Edward Knox, (1819–1901), and the son was Edward William Knox, (1847–1933). As the father was knighted in 1898, only three years before his death, many of the Trove references would not refer to him as Sir Edward Knox. Again, I am sorting out Condong’s money trail to see what business / financial aspects of the tramway are extracted (pun intended!!). At the moment, I am examining the standard gauge aspects of Condong as earlier published research was mostly done in the pre Trove era and Trove documents have allowed very bright spotlights on certain matters which I won’t spill here before publication.

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley


Petan
 

Thanks everybody for all these revealing responses and I’ll enjoy spending time analysing them in depth!!  Also just downloaded that City of Sydney historical map and it is quite revealing.   

 

Quite an interesting topic as the standard gauge NSWGR aspect of the Tweed sugar cane and processed sugar  / molasses transportation shows some ‘interesting’ aspects for those LRRSA folk who study the wagons that operated on long disused rail routes. Sugar Cane wagon were listed in the 1945 version of the state wide NSWGR General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I. The wagon data included wheel arrangements (bogie or 4W), length over buffers / couplers as well as carrying capacity. The cane wagon of particular interest is the LCT, described as ***Old Carriage Underframe*** 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That 1945 GA is found at http://www.coalstonewcastle.com.au/appendix/documents/

 

But the LCT, described as ‘Old Carriage Underframe’ on that 1945 GA, are listed as four wheel in the February 1969 NSWGR state wide General Appendix to the Book of Rules and Regulations and to the Working Time-Tables - Part I, as follows; LCT 4W, 24 ft 6 in, 8 Tons;  That suggests the passenger presumably bogie gear was swapped for 4 wheel style in the cane rebuild. Maybe the passenger bogies were reused under other passenger cars.  

 

I am using the standard research method of ‘following the money trail’ for the Tweed sugar tramway research, by ‘shaking the money tree’ and seeing what titbits fall at my feet! The Tweed Regional Museum staff are helping me close in on this corporate money trail as they have given me access to their files including the Robb family and other sugar data. Dare I introduce a pun and say it is ‘juicy data’!! Once I started on the Robb family file for the Cudgen sugar mill / tramway enterprise, I quickly discovered it was a father and son job at Cudgen, with other offspring in other parts of the Robb business.  The father was the well John Robb, commemorated by Robb’s Monument on the Cairns Kuranda railway in north Queensland. The Tweed files revealed him as John Frederick Robb, the father, who died in 1896, so clearly not the Robb who sold the mill / tramway etc to CSR many years after his death! The third son was John Alexander Robb, who entered this chronicle as a major Cudgen executive around 1892. John Alexander Robb, the son, was born 5 September 1870, so was 21 in September 1891.  John Frederick Robb, the father, was usually listed as John Robb in the Government Gazettes and his son was usually shown as John Alexander Robb or John A  Robb in the NSW Gazettes. The museum has given me a scan of the **handwritten** (Robb Casey Julius) Cudgen Robb & Co December 1882 agreement and a copy of that PDF is now safely with the LR editors. The museum has also given me their preferred acknowledgement style.  I will not reveal too much more on the Robb corporate money trail before I submit the article to LR.

 

CSR Condong’s corporate history, like Robb and Co, also involved a father and son in executive positions. The father was Edward Knox, (1819–1901), and the son was Edward William Knox, (1847–1933). As the father was knighted in 1898, only three years before his death, many of the Trove references would not refer to him as Sir Edward Knox. Again, I am sorting out Condong’s money trail to see what business / financial aspects of the tramway are extracted (pun intended!!). At the moment, I am examining the standard gauge aspects of Condong as earlier published research was mostly done in the pre Trove era and Trove documents have allowed very bright spotlights on certain matters which I won’t spill here before publication.

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

 

 

 

 


Kevin Sewell
 

At the risk of getting a bit OT ...

Does anybody know what else CO2 could be an ingredient in, because I don't think CO2 went out the CSRC gate in liquid or solid form, but perhaps went into something else that they made there. I am BY NO MEANS a chemist so I have absolutely NO idea what these chemicals are but ISTR they made acetaldehyde, something or other anhydride (acid anhydride perhaps) acetic acid, the stuff that takes nail polish off, zinc and aluminium sterates, and others I now don't recall. Perhaps CO2 goes into one of these.
Again it was rather a long time ago and I was only a kid, but I think I recall them doing research work on synthetic sugars as well, which might seem a bit odd for a sugar company. I remember dad bringing home (probably pint) bottles of liquid sugar, but I don't think it was around for long, or maybe they stopped allowing employees to take it home.
I did a school holidays job working down in the sterates plant as a 14y.o. Hardest bloody physical work I have ever done!!!!!
And now it's all gone - Pyrmont, Lane Cove, Rhodes, and Mayfield West in Newcastle. Great days.




On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 at 6:31 PM, Bob Mcleod bobmcleod45@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

      Indeed Kevin, My Dad reports workmen who spent time in the empty fermenting vats becoming somewhat merry. They also used beryllium copper tools, to prevent any chance of a spark igniting the vapour. The sugar dust was also highly explosive, a spark from a conveyor, at one time blew out all the windows of the warehouse, into the harbour.
  I rather wonder if the molasses loaded on rail at Condong, went to Pyrmont at all. There were many other users of it. Stock food makers use a lot. 
    Bob


From: "Kevin Sewell kevinrsewell@... [LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...>
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2018, 15:49
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

 


On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 2:42 PM, Bob Mcleod wrote:
 
The molasses was largely used for distilling alcohol, and the resulting CO2 gas was compressed, also converted to dry ice. Pyrmont was a huge industrial complex, with a large range of by-products, and an engineering facility equal to anything in Australia.

BINGO!!! - then thats why the molasses went to CSRC at Lane Cove ... CSRC made industrial quantities of pure alcohol. It was shipped out by the stainless steel semitrailer tanker load. 
I vaguely recall an incident probably about 1970, where workmen had to climb inside the tanker to wash it out for the next load, and were overcome by the fumes and became unconcious and died before they could be got out. I suppose alcoholic poisoning. The tank had not been fully drained after the previous load and there was still a small amount of pure alcohol in the tank. A somewhat different approach to WHS in those days.



--
Cheers,
Kevin
Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement.


--
Don't just answer the question, question the answer.


Bob Mcleod
 

      Indeed Kevin, My Dad reports workmen who spent time in the empty fermenting vats becoming somewhat merry. They also used beryllium copper tools, to prevent any chance of a spark igniting the vapour. The sugar dust was also highly explosive, a spark from a conveyor, at one time blew out all the windows of the warehouse, into the harbour.
  I rather wonder if the molasses loaded on rail at Condong, went to Pyrmont at all. There were many other users of it. Stock food makers use a lot. 
    Bob


From: "Kevin Sewell kevinrsewell@... [LRRSA]"
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2018, 15:49
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

 


On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 2:42 PM, Bob Mcleod wrote:
 
The molasses was largely used for distilling alcohol, and the resulting CO2 gas was compressed, also converted to dry ice. Pyrmont was a huge industrial complex, with a large range of by-products, and an engineering facility equal to anything in Australia.

BINGO!!! - then thats why the molasses went to CSRC at Lane Cove ... CSRC made industrial quantities of pure alcohol. It was shipped out by the stainless steel semitrailer tanker load. 
I vaguely recall an incident probably about 1970, where workmen had to climb inside the tanker to wash it out for the next load, and were overcome by the fumes and became unconcious and died before they could be got out. I suppose alcoholic poisoning. The tank had not been fully drained after the previous load and there was still a small amount of pure alcohol in the tank. A somewhat different approach to WHS in those days.



--
Cheers,
Kevin
Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement.



Kevin Sewell
 



On Sun, Mar 4, 2018 at 2:42 PM, Bob Mcleod wrote:
 

The molasses was largely used for distilling alcohol, and the resulting CO2 gas was compressed, also converted to dry ice. Pyrmont was a huge industrial complex, with a large range of by-products, and an engineering facility equal to anything in Australia.

BINGO!!! - then thats why the molasses went to CSRC at Lane Cove ... CSRC made industrial quantities of pure alcohol. It was shipped out by the stainless steel semitrailer tanker load. 
I vaguely recall an incident probably about 1970, where workmen had to climb inside the tanker to wash it out for the next load, and were overcome by the fumes and became unconcious and died before they could be got out. I suppose alcoholic poisoning. The tank had not been fully drained after the previous load and there was still a small amount of pure alcohol in the tank. A somewhat different approach to WHS in those days.



--
Cheers,
Kevin

Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement.


Bob Mcleod
 

I am interested in this CSR business, as my father served his apprenticeship there and went to sea on the CSR sugar ships in the 1930's. He spoke with reverence of CSR for the rest of his life. The Company had two ocean going steamships, the Rona, and the Fiona, built around the early years of the Century, triple expansion engines. They travelled to Fiji, New Zealand, and the Aust. east Coast, carrying sugar, copra, molasses and transferring machinery, 2ft. gauge rolling stock etc. It was usual for them to enter Northern Rivers, to load sugar, bagasse and carry bulk molasses, direct from the company mills. This was kept in steam heated tanks, and pumped aboard with steam pumps.  The molasses was largely used for distilling alcohol, and the resulting CO2 gas was compressed, also converted to dry ice. Pyrmont was a huge industrial complex, with a large range of by-products, and an engineering facility equal to anything in Australia.
  The company ships regularly berthed in Elizabeth Bay.  I have never heard of any rail connection, and if molasses was sent there by rail, I assume it was unloaded at Darling Harbour. If it was in bulk, then it must have been transferred to road tankers for the very short haul to the Refinery. This seems unlikely, due to the need to heat it somewhat to enable it to be freely pumped . It would almost have been worthwhile laying  a pipeline this short distance.
  Up until the end of WW2 , all products leaving Pyrmont were carted on 4 wheel horse drawn lorries, 4 or 6 horses, depending on load. The Company was very proud of its horses, (fed plenty of molasses?), and they were greatly loved. They were very intelligent, and would work from store to weighbridge, stables to office etc, without any driver, they were just told where to go. They would always carefully park the wagons on the weighbridge, regardless of how big the team. I include a photo of some of these horses at the Refinery. They would negotiate city traffic to their destination, whilst the driver read the daily paper.
  Incoming stores and goods were brought in by these teams, as well as by independent carriers, but I have not heard of horse drawn or motor molasses tankers. 
  The engineering works at Pyrmont  was much involved in maintenance of the extensive 2ft. gauge railway systems in Australia and Fiji, making most of their own rolling stock, and I remember seeing the massive forges and steam hammers there. The company bought in great quantities of old bones, which were used to make bone charcoal, for filtering sugar syrup. The oil driven off in charring the bones was used as fuel in all the furnaces in the workshops, and it sure did stink!
   There are many more stories of Pyrmont, in the 'good old days' but that is enough.  The map of Sydney is most fascinating.... look at all the names of landowners . All those big Australian companies that have disappeared! 
    Regards,   Bob McLeod


From: "Kevin Sewell kevinrsewell@... [LRRSA]"
To: LRRSA@...
Sent: Sunday, 4 March 2018, 12:14
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

 
This is only a puzzle piece, not an exhaustive solution to your question.

My father worked for CSR Chemicals at Lane Cove from about the mid 1950s to when the plant closed and merged with the much bigger CSRC plant at Rhodes. Up until about the mid to late 60s (unsure exactly) molasses was brought to CSRC Lane Cove by barge, up the Lane Cove river to CSRC's wharf, from where it was transferred for use in the plant. I only remember being taken down to see the wharf as a little kid, and didn't see the barges, but probably they only travelled weekdays and I was only there weekends with dad. I have no idea what the molasses was used for, or what process it went into. I think it extraordinarily unlikely to have been domestic/shop retail. It must have been some chemical process/product.
I have no idea how the molasses was transported on the barge - probably not bulk tanks, and certainly not ISO containers. It may have been barrels or casks. CSRC had an in-house cooper up until the late 60s.
Where the molasses came from, I don't know. Possibly from Pyrmont sugar refinery, or possibly off loaded at the refinery from ships directly onto barges for movement up the river to Lane Cove ... don't know. Whether it came from Condong, I don't know. (don't know much do I!!) CSRC would hardly be likely to be buying someone else's molasses so presumably it came from a CSR mill ... quite possibly Condong.
My father was an instrument technician (fancy F&T!!!) and was rostered once a month to go in for several hours Sat and Sun to walk around the entire factory changing and collecting the paper charts that recorded everything to do with the processes (they had to be changed every 24hours). I used to sometimes go with him, riding on his Vespa motor scooter from Lindfield to Lane Cove. I vividly remember the all-consuming overpowering smell of the molass walking around down in that part of the plant. If think very hard about it, I can still smell it - it has burned the smell-image into my brain forever. Even I as a child I could tell which part of the plant we were in from the chemical's smells.
The molasses was stored in huge tanks, maybe 20 or 30m high and about 10m diameter with rounded tops and bottoms. I think there was about 8 or 10 of them. As I said, I don't know how the molasses got from barge to tanks, but I very vaguely recall there being a pipeline, possibly also a steam line going down through the bush to the wharf, so maybe it was steam heated to make it more runny. Don't know ... much. It is possible that CSRC was the sole customer of Condong's molasses, in which case it might never have hit land until off-loaded at Lane Cove.
As I said puzzle piece, not solution.



On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 at 9:54 PM, 'Peter Cokley' yahoomail@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 
Can those who knew Pyrmont in Sydney during the CSR refinery era please help (confirm yes or no) the results of  my following investigations. It is to do with an article on Condong in the CSR era. I live near Coolangatta Tweed Heads.
 
CSR was located with its own ocean going capable ship capable wharf at Pyrmont on the left hand side inbound as you crossed the Victoria Rd bridge, coming from Hunters Hill direction. (Yes or No)
 
The Metropolitan Goods Line, as shown on Hairylegs (Thanks John P.) did not provide a siding for CSR at Pyrmont and the closest siding would have been somewhere like Darling Harbour. (yes or No)
 
If both above are true, then any bagged sugar dispatched from Condong via the NSWGR needed transhipping at Darling Harbour or maybe Rozelle after that yard opened.
 
If above true, and no rail siding for CSR at Pyrmont, what happened with the molasses railed south from Condong? The 1961 NSWGR Local Appendix to the Northern Division Working Timetable P.330 reveals a molasses loading point with 6 outlets was provided at the Condong mill.. Things must have changed as photo from 1969 only shows four outlets.. The molasses was noted in the LA-WTT as being loaded into MX type Railway Tankers.
 
I have also consulted the Metropolitan Goods Line article and diagrams in ARH 2016.  
 
Thanks
Peter Cokley
 
 
 
--
Don't just answer the question, question the answer.



Kevin Sewell
 

This is only a puzzle piece, not an exhaustive solution to your question.

My father worked for CSR Chemicals at Lane Cove from about the mid 1950s to when the plant closed and merged with the much bigger CSRC plant at Rhodes. Up until about the mid to late 60s (unsure exactly) molasses was brought to CSRC Lane Cove by barge, up the Lane Cove river to CSRC's wharf, from where it was transferred for use in the plant. I only remember being taken down to see the wharf as a little kid, and didn't see the barges, but probably they only travelled weekdays and I was only there weekends with dad. I have no idea what the molasses was used for, or what process it went into. I think it extraordinarily unlikely to have been domestic/shop retail. It must have been some chemical process/product.
I have no idea how the molasses was transported on the barge - probably not bulk tanks, and certainly not ISO containers. It may have been barrels or casks. CSRC had an in-house cooper up until the late 60s.
Where the molasses came from, I don't know. Possibly from Pyrmont sugar refinery, or possibly off loaded at the refinery from ships directly onto barges for movement up the river to Lane Cove ... don't know. Whether it came from Condong, I don't know. (don't know much do I!!) CSRC would hardly be likely to be buying someone else's molasses so presumably it came from a CSR mill ... quite possibly Condong.
My father was an instrument technician (fancy F&T!!!) and was rostered once a month to go in for several hours Sat and Sun to walk around the entire factory changing and collecting the paper charts that recorded everything to do with the processes (they had to be changed every 24hours). I used to sometimes go with him, riding on his Vespa motor scooter from Lindfield to Lane Cove. I vividly remember the all-consuming overpowering smell of the molass walking around down in that part of the plant. If think very hard about it, I can still smell it - it has burned the smell-image into my brain forever. Even I as a child I could tell which part of the plant we were in from the chemical's smells.
The molasses was stored in huge tanks, maybe 20 or 30m high and about 10m diameter with rounded tops and bottoms. I think there was about 8 or 10 of them. As I said, I don't know how the molasses got from barge to tanks, but I very vaguely recall there being a pipeline, possibly also a steam line going down through the bush to the wharf, so maybe it was steam heated to make it more runny. Don't know ... much. It is possible that CSRC was the sole customer of Condong's molasses, in which case it might never have hit land until off-loaded at Lane Cove.
As I said puzzle piece, not solution.



On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 at 9:54 PM, 'Peter Cokley' yahoomail@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

Can those who knew Pyrmont in Sydney during the CSR refinery era please help (confirm yes or no) the results of  my following investigations. It is to do with an article on Condong in the CSR era. I live near Coolangatta Tweed Heads.

 

CSR was located with its own ocean going capable ship capable wharf at Pyrmont on the left hand side inbound as you crossed the Victoria Rd bridge, coming from Hunters Hill direction. (Yes or No)

 

The Metropolitan Goods Line, as shown on Hairylegs (Thanks John P.) did not provide a siding for CSR at Pyrmont and the closest siding would have been somewhere like Darling Harbour. (yes or No)

 

If both above are true, then any bagged sugar dispatched from Condong via the NSWGR needed transhipping at Darling Harbour or maybe Rozelle after that yard opened.

 

If above true, and no rail siding for CSR at Pyrmont, what happened with the molasses railed south from Condong? The 1961 NSWGR Local Appendix to the Northern Division Working Timetable P.330 reveals a molasses loading point with 6 outlets was provided at the Condong mill.. Things must have changed as photo from 1969 only shows four outlets. The molasses was noted in the LA-WTT as being loaded into MX type Railway Tankers.

 

I have also consulted the Metropolitan Goods Line article and diagrams in ARH 2016.  

 

Thanks

Peter Cokley

 

 

 

--
Don't just answer the question, question the answer.


Noel Reed
 

Hello Peter and all,

One of my 1943-1947 high school friends worked with CSR Pyrmont and I believe that he was also at CSR establishments in northern NSW and Queensland at various times.

He still lives in retirement in our area and if I can get specific queries about Pyrmont , he may have some answers which I can pass on.

Noel Reed.

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2018 9:54 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: [LRRSA] Pyrmont CSR

 

 

Can those who knew Pyrmont in Sydney during the CSR refinery era please help (confirm yes or no) the results of  my following investigations. It is to do with an article on Condong in the CSR era. I live near Coolangatta Tweed Heads.

 

CSR was located with its own ocean going capable ship capable wharf at Pyrmont on the left hand side inbound as you crossed the Victoria Rd bridge, coming from Hunters Hill direction. (Yes or No)

 

The Metropolitan Goods Line, as shown on Hairylegs (Thanks John P.) did not provide a siding for CSR at Pyrmont and the closest siding would have been somewhere like Darling Harbour. (yes or No)

 

If both above are true, then any bagged sugar dispatched from Condong via the NSWGR needed transhipping at Darling Harbour or maybe Rozelle after that yard opened.

 

If above true, and no rail siding for CSR at Pyrmont, what happened with the molasses railed south from Condong? The 1961 NSWGR Local Appendix to the Northern Division Working Timetable P.330 reveals a molasses loading point with 6 outlets was provided at the Condong mill.. Things must have changed as photo from 1969 only shows four outlets. The molasses was noted in the LA-WTT as being loaded into MX type Railway Tankers.

 

I have also consulted the Metropolitan Goods Line article and diagrams in ARH 2016.  

 

Thanks

Peter Cokley

 

 

 


Posted by: "Peter Cokley"



Petan
 

Can those who knew Pyrmont in Sydney during the CSR refinery era please help (confirm yes or no) the results of  my following investigations. It is to do with an article on Condong in the CSR era. I live near Coolangatta Tweed Heads.

 

CSR was located with its own ocean going capable ship capable wharf at Pyrmont on the left hand side inbound as you crossed the Victoria Rd bridge, coming from Hunters Hill direction. (Yes or No)

 

The Metropolitan Goods Line, as shown on Hairylegs (Thanks John P.) did not provide a siding for CSR at Pyrmont and the closest siding would have been somewhere like Darling Harbour. (yes or No)

 

If both above are true, then any bagged sugar dispatched from Condong via the NSWGR needed transhipping at Darling Harbour or maybe Rozelle after that yard opened.

 

If above true, and no rail siding for CSR at Pyrmont, what happened with the molasses railed south from Condong? The 1961 NSWGR Local Appendix to the Northern Division Working Timetable P.330 reveals a molasses loading point with 6 outlets was provided at the Condong mill. Things must have changed as photo from 1969 only shows four outlets. The molasses was noted in the LA-WTT as being loaded into MX type Railway Tankers.

 

I have also consulted the Metropolitan Goods Line article and diagrams in ARH 2016.  

 

Thanks

Peter Cokley