Topics

Brisbane Grafton data

Petan
 

Some track plans as well as maps and line histories for Brisbane to Grafton and Casino to Murwillumbah lines, are now available thanks to the generosity of various people who sent these via email. The working plans and sections for the Grafton Casino Murwillumbah Condong lines are included.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KCnx3cACRdCeM2yc9UbIcCK7i4UHh6Io

Those who read Ian Dunn’s Byways of Steam 18: 'the railway from nowhere to nowhere': the Grafton to the Tweed Railway 1894-1932, published by Eveleigh Press NSW  in 2002, would know about the proposed line from Killarney in Queensland to Legume just over the border in NSW and onwards to Grafton via Bonalbo. While I don’t have plans for that, this download does have plans for parts of the Casino Bonalbo Tenterfield line of which parts of the Casino section were built. Not all proposals went through Bonalbo.

Some other proposed lines in the Tenterfield Casino area are marked on the historical parish cadastrals obtainable from NSW Historical Land Records Viewer. Perhaps start at either Tenterfield Parish or Tabulam parish around a probably era and follow the marked surveys through the adjoining parish maps http://www.nswlrs.com.au/land_titles/historical_research/parish_maps

Thanks to those who forwarded material including Kevin Spicer and Monty Cello (Niagarapark on QRIG yahoogroup). Others wish to remain anonymous or I have not recorded their names and sorry about that if that is you and send me a private email as I have tried to be careful and respectful with names.

Section 30 of the Grafton Casino working plans and section was unavailable and so I did a substitute page with the history and track plans for Mount Neville at 477 miles 41 chains (768.481km), which was a station on sheet 30.

Also note one of the plans correctly shows what was usually known as South Brisbane Interstate Station as using it correct name of Brisbane as it was known and marked on NSWGR sourced plans in 1930 at the lines opening. The image resolution is the best I have.

Cheers

Peter Cokley

Petan
 

A generous person just sent a copy of the NSWR 1917 plan for Casino's double roundhouse arrangement, ie two full size roundhouses, both with 75 ft turntables. What did eventuate was one 75ft turntable, with covering on the southern side only, which opened December 1933, replacing Lismore as main depot for area. Mileage from Grafton. The plan shows the present station which opened 22.9.1930 with the Sth Brisbane standard gauge line, as well as the original 1903 platform and triangle on the Lismore line.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RNSkBG_woE5B8pQEYI5UMQWvOmEzPO0f/view

The links in my earlier post give other regional data.

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2017 8:55 AM
To: LRRSA@...; qrig@...
Subject: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

Some track plans as well as maps and line histories for Brisbane to Grafton and Casino to Murwillumbah lines, are now available thanks to the generosity of various people who sent these via email. The working plans and sections for the Grafton Casino Murwillumbah Condong lines are included.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KCnx3cACRdCeM2yc9UbIcCK7i4UHh6Io

Those who read Ian Dunn’s Byways of Steam 18: 'the railway from nowhere to nowhere': the Grafton to the Tweed Railway 1894-1932, published by Eveleigh Press NSW  in 2002, would know about the proposed line from Killarney in Queensland to Legume just over the border in NSW and onwards to Grafton via Bonalbo. While I don’t have plans for that, this download does have plans for parts of the Casino Bonalbo Tenterfield line of which parts of the Casino section were built. Not all proposals went through Bonalbo.

Some other proposed lines in the Tenterfield Casino area are marked on the historical parish cadastrals obtainable from NSW Historical Land Records Viewer. Perhaps start at either Tenterfield Parish or Tabulam parish around a probably era and follow the marked surveys through the adjoining parish maps http://www.nswlrs.com.au/land_titles/historical_research/parish_maps

Thanks to those who forwarded material including Kevin Spicer and Monty Cello (Niagarapark on QRIG yahoogroup). Others wish to remain anonymous or I have not recorded their names and sorry about that if that is you and send me a private email as I have tried to be careful and respectful with names.

Section 30 of the Grafton Casino working plans and section was unavailable and so I did a substitute page with the history and track plans for Mount Neville at 477 miles 41 chains (768.481km), which was a station on sheet 30.

Also note one of the plans correctly shows what was usually known as South Brisbane Interstate Station as using it correct name of Brisbane as it was known and marked on NSWGR sourced plans in 1930 at the lines opening. The image resolution is the best I have.

Cheers Peter Cokley

Hunslet
 

This was a grand plan, including a massive carriage shed and “standard” ramped coal stage.      Considering that the through line to South Brisbane did not eventuate until 1930, one must assume that this facility was intended to replace the facilities at Lismore – which were okay when Lismore was the nerve centre of the Tweed Railway, but certainly not so as the line expanded southwards to Grafton.

It would be of interest to be able to read the Report for which this plan was prepared … what were the operating intentions planned?

Hunslet.

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Saturday, 17 March 2018 12:59 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

 

A generous person just sent a copy of the NSWR 1917 plan for Casino's double roundhouse arrangement, ie two full size roundhouses, both with 75 ft turntables. What did eventuate was one 75ft turntable, with covering on the southern side only, which opened December 1933, replacing Lismore as main depot for area. Mileage from Grafton. The plan shows the present station which opened 22.9.1930 with the Sth Brisbane standard gauge line, as well as the original 1903 platform and triangle on the Lismore line.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RNSkBG_woE5B8pQEYI5UMQWvOmEzPO0f/view

The links in my earlier post give other regional data.

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2017 8:55 AM
To: LRRSA@...; qrig@...
Subject: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

Some track plans as well as maps and line histories for Brisbane to Grafton and Casino to Murwillumbah lines, are now available thanks to the generosity of various people who sent these via email. The working plans and sections for the Grafton Casino Murwillumbah Condong lines are included.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KCnx3cACRdCeM2yc9UbIcCK7i4UHh6Io

Those who read Ian Dunn’s Byways of Steam 18: 'the railway from nowhere to nowhere': the Grafton to the Tweed Railway 1894-1932, published by Eveleigh Press NSW  in 2002, would know about the proposed line from Killarney in Queensland to Legume just over the border in NSW and onwards to Grafton via Bonalbo. While I don’t have plans for that, this download does have plans for parts of the Casino Bonalbo Tenterfield line of which parts of the Casino section were built. Not all proposals went through Bonalbo.

Some other proposed lines in the Tenterfield Casino area are marked on the historical parish cadastrals obtainable from NSW Historical Land Records Viewer. Perhaps start at either Tenterfield Parish or Tabulam parish around a probably era and follow the marked surveys through the adjoining parish maps http://www.nswlrs.com.au/land_titles/historical_research/parish_maps

Thanks to those who forwarded material including Kevin Spicer and Monty Cello (Niagarapark on QRIG yahoogroup). Others wish to remain anonymous or I have not recorded their names and sorry about that if that is you and send me a private email as I have tried to be careful and respectful with names.

Section 30 of the Grafton Casino working plans and section was unavailable and so I did a substitute page with the history and track plans for Mount Neville at 477 miles 41 chains (768.481km), which was a station on sheet 30.

Also note one of the plans correctly shows what was usually known as South Brisbane Interstate Station as using it correct name of Brisbane as it was known and marked on NSWGR sourced plans in 1930 at the lines opening. The image resolution is the best I have.

Cheers Peter Cokley

Petan
 

Hi Pete and all,

Like you Peter, I was very curious and posted some of the following on another email group yesterday and it is similar to your questions.

The 1917 plan with all those locomotive facilities, especially two 75 ft turntables, does suggest someone in Sydney considered the proposed standard gauge right through to Brisbane traffic volumes would need two roundhouses in Casino. The other initial alternative to Brisbane was transhipping at Tweed Heads and that might not require two roundhouses for NSW locos as the QLD side would be QR locomotives, thus less NSW locos. The only other alternative was someone in Sydney thought the local NSW traffic, and any new lines as the Casino Tenterfield one, would expand to need two roundhouses with 75 ft turntables. For the record, the NSW 35 class were 62 ft 10 in and introduced in 1914 before the 1917 date of this plan, so the 75 ft might suggest eventual use of the 35 class or larger locos in the district. Byways of Steam 18 shows NSW 32 class express passenger locos first arrived Lismore 1927 and the standard goods 50 class arrived Lismore Depot 1930 for Brisbane run. Also, in 1917, as people are aware, the line Grafton to Sydney was not finished with the last missing section south of Grafton being the Macksville Urunga section which opened in December 1923, although the trunk route also included the rail ferry across the Clarence River at Grafton until the 1932 bridge.

 

I read somewhere, but can’t recall exactly where, the decision to build a standard gauge loco depot in Brisbane changed the planning for the size of the Casino one, remembering Casino opened in 1933. The initial QLD standard gauge loco depot was proposed but never built at Park Rd, 2.6km from South Brisbane. I traced the files at QLD State Archives on the standard gauge Park Rd loco depot with the item ID on the following URL which is extracted from that QSA file. I used my camera to obtain these  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByB-ppGeDyvwNGRpQWlMVVhBNFU/view

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@... <LRRSA@...>
Sent: Saturday, 17 March 2018 7:25 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

This was a grand plan, including a massive carriage shed and “standard” ramped coal stage.      Considering that the through line to South Brisbane did not eventuate until 1930, one must assume that this facility was intended to replace the facilities at Lismore – which were okay when Lismore was the nerve centre of the Tweed Railway, but certainly not so as the line expanded southwards to Grafton.

It would be of interest to be able to read the Report for which this plan was prepared … what were the operating intentions planned?

Hunslet.

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Saturday, 17 March 2018 12:59 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

A generous person just sent a copy of the NSWR 1917 plan for Casino's double roundhouse arrangement, ie two full size roundhouses, both with 75 ft turntables. What did eventuate was one 75ft turntable, with covering on the southern side only, which opened December 1933, replacing Lismore as main depot for area. Mileage from Grafton. The plan shows the present station which opened 22.9.1930 with the Sth Brisbane standard gauge line, as well as the original 1903 platform and triangle on the Lismore line.https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RNSkBG_woE5B8pQEYI5UMQWvOmEzPO0f/view The links in my earlier post give other regional data. Cheers Peter Cokley

 

Hunslet
 

G’day Peter.

Thanks for your email.

The length quoted for the 35 class would be the overall length, and NOT the wheelbase length.   According to “Steam Locomotive Data” (PTC of NSW, 7/1974), the wheelbase length of a 35 class is “only” 53ft 9¾in., well short enough to be turned on a 60-ft turntable.

A 36 class is 59ft 1in.   There were apparently “short 60-ft” and  “long 60-ft” turntables – so it obviously relies on the skill of the enginemen as to whether it would be necessary to split the 36 class for turning.  Armidale had a 60-ft turntable and 36 class off the North Mail were regularly turned there without splitting.

Another matter to consider when turning an engine which is longer than the turntable itself is whether there are any obstructions around the turntable perimeter.   This was found to be the case when a 36 class was first turned on the 60-ft ‘table at Kiama.   Luckily, the local Bridge Gang were working nearby and were able to attend with their oxy-gear to remove the offending item.

Cheers,

Pete.

Peter Neve OAM 

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Sunday, 18 March 2018 10:25 AM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

 

Hi Pete and all,

Like you Peter, I was very curious and posted some of the following on another email group yesterday and it is similar to your questions.

The 1917 plan with all those locomotive facilities, especially two 75 ft turntables, does suggest someone in Sydney considered the proposed standard gauge right through to Brisbane traffic volumes would need two roundhouses in Casino. The other initial alternative to Brisbane was transhipping at Tweed Heads and that might not require two roundhouses for NSW locos as the QLD side would be QR locomotives, thus less NSW locos. The only other alternative was someone in Sydney thought the local NSW traffic, and any new lines as the Casino Tenterfield one, would expand to need two roundhouses with 75 ft turntables. For the record, the NSW 35 class were 62 ft 10 in and introduced in 1914 before the 1917 date of this plan, so the 75 ft might suggest eventual use of the 35 class or larger locos in the district. Byways of Steam 18 shows NSW 32 class express passenger locos first arrived Lismore 1927 and the standard goods 50 class arrived Lismore Depot 1930 for Brisbane run. Also, in 1917, as people are aware, the line Grafton to Sydney was not finished with the last missing section south of Grafton being the Macksville Urunga section which opened in December 1923, although the trunk route also included the rail ferry across the Clarence River at Grafton until the 1932 bridge.

 

I read somewhere, but can’t recall exactly where, the decision to build a standard gauge loco depot in Brisbane changed the planning for the size of the Casino one, remembering Casino opened in 1933. The initial QLD standard gauge loco depot was proposed but never built at Park Rd, 2.6km from South Brisbane. I traced the files at QLD State Archives on the standard gauge Park Rd loco depot with the item ID on the following URL which is extracted from that QSA file. I used my camera to obtain these  https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByB-ppGeDyvwNGRpQWlMVVhBNFU/view

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@...
Sent: Saturday, 17 March 2018 7:25 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

This was a grand plan, including a massive carriage shed and “standard” ramped coal stage.      Considering that the through line to South Brisbane did not eventuate until 1930, one must assume that this facility was intended to replace the facilities at Lismore – which were okay when Lismore was the nerve centre of the Tweed Railway, but certainly not so as the line expanded southwards to Grafton.

It would be of interest to be able to read the Report for which this plan was prepared … what were the operating intentions planned?

Hunslet.

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Saturday, 17 March 2018 12:59 PM
To:
LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

A generous person just sent a copy of the NSWR 1917 plan for Casino's double roundhouse arrangement, ie two full size roundhouses, both with 75 ft turntables. What did eventuate was one 75ft turntable, with covering on the southern side only, which opened December 1933, replacing Lismore as main depot for area. Mileage from Grafton. The plan shows the present station which opened 22.9.1930 with the Sth Brisbane standard gauge line, as well as the original 1903 platform and triangle on the Lismore line.https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RNSkBG_woE5B8pQEYI5UMQWvOmEzPO0f/view The links in my earlier post give other regional data. Cheers Peter Cokley

 

Chris Stratton
 

According to my turntable list the 75 foot turntable from Thirroul was removed in 1929 and later installed at Casino. A 90 foot turntable was then installed at Thirroul.

Regards,

Chris

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Saturday, 17 March 2018 12:59 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: RE: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 




A generous person just sent a copy of the NSWR 1917 plan for Casino's double roundhouse arrangement, ie two full size roundhouses, both with 75 ft turntables. What did eventuate was one 75ft turntable, with covering on the southern side only, which opened December 1933, replacing Lismore as main depot for area. Mileage from Grafton. The plan shows the present station which opened 22.9.1930 with the Sth Brisbane standard gauge line, as well as the original 1903 platform and triangle on the Lismore line.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RNSkBG_woE5B8pQEYI5UMQWvOmEzPO0f/view

The links in my earlier post give other regional data.

Cheers

Peter Cokley

 

From: LRRSA@... <LRRSA@...>
Sent: Wednesday, 20 December 2017 8:55 AM
To: LRRSA@...; qrig@...
Subject: [LRRSA] Brisbane Grafton data

 

Some track plans as well as maps and line histories for Brisbane to Grafton and Casino to Murwillumbah lines, are now available thanks to the generosity of various people who sent these via email. The working plans and sections for the Grafton Casino Murwillumbah Condong lines are included.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KCnx3cACRdCeM2yc9UbIcCK7i4UHh6Io

Those who read Ian Dunn’s Byways of Steam 18: 'the railway from nowhere to nowhere': the Grafton to the Tweed Railway 1894-1932, published by Eveleigh Press NSW  in 2002, would know about the proposed line from Killarney in Queensland to Legume just over the border in NSW and onwards to Grafton via Bonalbo. While I don’t have plans for that, this download does have plans for parts of the Casino Bonalbo Tenterfield line of which parts of the Casino section were built. Not all proposals went through Bonalbo.

Some other proposed lines in the Tenterfield Casino area are marked on the historical parish cadastrals obtainable from NSW Historical Land Records Viewer. Perhaps start at either Tenterfield Parish or Tabulam parish around a probably era and follow the marked surveys through the adjoining parish maps http://www.nswlrs.com.au/land_titles/historical_research/parish_maps

Thanks to those who forwarded material including Kevin Spicer and Monty Cello (Niagarapark on QRIG yahoogroup). Others wish to remain anonymous or I have not recorded their names and sorry about that if that is you and send me a private email as I have tried to be careful and respectful with names.

Section 30 of the Grafton Casino working plans and section was unavailable and so I did a substitute page with the history and track plans for Mount Neville at 477 miles 41 chains (768.481km), which was a station on sheet 30.

Also note one of the plans correctly shows what was usually known as South Brisbane Interstate Station as using it correct name of Brisbane as it was known and marked on NSWGR sourced plans in 1930 at the lines opening. The image resolution is the best I have.

Cheers Peter Cokley




Petan
 

Another generous person has sent the following plans with their URL’s below; Casino roundhouse proposal 1931 (2MB) and the 1950 Casino plan for the 105ft turntable for the Beyer-Garratt AD60 class (4MB). As we know, the Garratt, either the original lower axle load type nor the enlarged cylinder diameter (super) type, did not work the North Coast as everyone will no doubt be muttering to themselves by now. But…. Yes…. It is revealed via the 1968 WTT that someone in NSWGR land did include the 60 class (not super type ) in the max speed of engines list with URL below. The super has the double plus sign and is on the right and the other 60 class in in the middle area of the columns. It even includes the Condong mill line, which, you might have guessed, is how I came across it due to my research on that line. Neither of the 60 class had load tables for the North Coast Line in any of the northern WTTs in my collection, including the 1958 one, although the 59 class steamer was in the 1968 north WTT  as far as Sth Brisbane.

 

Chris S, thanks for the news the 75 foot turntable from Thirroul was removed in 1929 and later installed at Casino.

Peter N, thanks for the reminder the turntable is the wheelbase not the length, so now I understand how the 38 class (76 ft 4 5/8in over buffers) fits on a 75 ft turntable. Plus the overhang business!

 

1931 Casino loco https://drive.google.com/file/d/177A27x1lip4zT1eG2yTwwEN6xuNZWRaS/view

 

1950 Casino loco with 105 ft turntable and the word ‘Garratt’ in the data box lower right corner https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vVrILbbOLSXHoZIoUbKMwiwuMdxhrBQn/view

 

1968 WTT loco max speed https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lSzBJYw1fK13zOLQDMe5LjnAdecGYTv5/view

 

Cheers

Peter Cokley

B.Rumary
 

On 18/03/2018 02:37, 'Hunslet' hunslet@... [LRRSA] wrote:

A 36 class is 59ft 1in.   There were apparently “short 60-ft” and  “long 60-ft” turntables – so it obviously relies on the skill of the enginemen as to whether it would be necessary to split the 36 class for turning.  Armidale had a 60-ft turntable and 36 class off the North Mail were regularly turned there without splitting.

Another matter to consider when turning an engine which is longer than the turntable itself is whether there are any obstructions around the turntable perimeter.   This was found to be the case when a 36 class was first turned on the 60-ft ‘table at Kiama.   Luckily, the local Bridge Gang were working nearby and were able to attend with their oxy-gear to remove the offending item.

There is also the question on many turntables - especially the man-worked ones - of getting the loco properly balanced, so that it could be turned. The loco's centre of gravity may well not be at the same position as the half-way point on its wheelbase, which would mean that the loco would have to be positioned "visually off-centre" to get it properly balanced for turning. And of course the balancing would also be affected by how much coal and water was in the tender when the loco was turned.

-- 
Brian Rumary
England
brian(at)rumary.co.uk