Norwegian Museum Railways ...


Frank Stamford
 

Hello all,

Over the past week I have escaped from LRRSA matters and have been processing the photographs I took in Norway in July-August.

As a result I have just updated my website:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~telica/Norway_Trip_Menu.html

More specifically, the changes that have been made are:

(1) Norwegian Railway Museum:

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~telica/Norway_Hamar_Railway_Museum.html

What was one page has now been expanded to about six. In many respects I think this might be one of the best set up railway museums in the world, although most of the rolling stock items are difficult to photograph due to confined space.

(2) Old Voss Railway

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~telica/Norway_Gamle_Vossebanen.html

This is a new page and relates to a standard gauge (former 3ft 6in) museum railway near Bergen.

(3) Krøderen Railway

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~telica/Norway_Kroderbanen.html

This is Norway's longest museum railway (26 km). I have added a number of new photographs, and replaced some with better ones.

(4) Trondheim Tramway

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~telica/Norway_Trondheim%20Trams.html

This is a new page and it relates to Trondheim's metre gauge electric tramway which climbs a hill on its own right-of-way, and is more like a narrow-gauge railway than a city tramway.

(5) Oslo - Trondheim

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~telica/Norway_Oslo_Trondheim.html

This is a new page, and contains shots of scenery taken from a moving train

(6) Oslo - Bergen

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~telica/Norway_Oslo_Bergen.html

This is an existing page of scenic shots taken from moving trains to which I have added some extra photos, including one of a rotary steam snow plough at Finse, which parked itself outside my window while I was having lunch in the buffet car.

(7) Lysøen

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~telica/Norway_Lysoen.html

This is the extraordinary house on an island near Bergen which was built by Ole Bull, a world famous nineteenth century violinist. The only remote connection to railways is that Ole Bull's brother was the first architect for Norwegian Railways and was responsible for almost all the railway stations in the 1860s and 1870s, but he certainly was not responsible for this strange over-decorated house!

None of that has any direct relevance to the LRRSA, but Norway may have been responsible for inflicting 3ft 6in gauge upon us.

By the way I have used the term "museum railway" rather than "preserved railway" since there seems to be an over-riding philosophy to operate these lines as they did in the past, with as little interference with the original fabric or operating procedures as possible.

Regards,

Frank


John Dennis <jdennis@...>
 

Excellent work Frank,

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

One minor correction. The Oslo-Trondheim page, with the views from the
moving train, has the Oslo-Bergen map.

John

On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 12:42:48 -0000, "Frank"
<frank.stamford@bigpond.com> wrote:

Hello all,

Over the past week I have escaped from LRRSA matters and have been processing the photographs I took in Norway in July-August.
==========================================================
John Dennis jdennis@optusnet.com.au
Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optusnet.com.au/duttonbay
WebX http://members.optusnet.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html


Frank Stamford
 

Hello John,

Thanks for the feedback.

With regard to the Oslo-Trondheim page, I am afraid the map is not a
mistake. It is the Oslo-Bergen map recycled with the names of Trondheim
and Dombås added. As I wanted to wind that project up before the year
ended I needed to take a short cut, though I am not very happy with it.

For the same reason there is no route map of the Old Voss Railway or the
Krøderen railway, though the Old Voss Railway, especially, needs one.
Later this year I hope to start writing a book on Norwegian 3ft 6in
gauge railways, and that will need a lot of map work. As a spin-off of
that process I should be able to provide better maps on the website.

Any feedback on the need for corrections on the website is greatly
welcomed, and providing making the corrections is not too time consuming
I will happily do it.

By the way, I think the strange weight driven device in the waiting room
of Ilseng station at the Hamar Railway Museum is probably a clock, with
the clock-face on the other side of the wall in the station-master's office.

Regards,

Frank

On 1/01/2011 6:55 PM, John Dennis wrote:

Excellent work Frank,

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

One minor correction. The Oslo-Trondheim page, with the views from the
moving train, has the Oslo-Bergen map.

John

On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 12:42:48 -0000, "Frank"
<frank.stamford@bigpond.com <mailto:frank.stamford%40bigpond.com>> wrote:

Hello all,

Over the past week I have escaped from LRRSA matters and have been
processing the photographs I took in Norway in July-August.
==========================================================
John Dennis jdennis@optusnet.com.au <mailto:jdennis%40optusnet.com.au>
Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optusnet.com.au/duttonbay
WebX http://members.optusnet.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html


B.Rumary
 

Frank Stamford wrote:

Later this year I hope to start writing a book on Norwegian 3ft 6in
gauge railways, and that will need a lot of map work.
That should be worth waiting for; I don't know of _any_ books on the
subject in English. Don't forget to let us know the details when it
finally comes out.

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk


Frank Stamford
 

Hello Brian,

Thanks for your comment.

I do not know of any books in any language covering the subject as a
whole. There are a several good histories of individual lines in
Norwegian (the Røros line in particular), and a very good (but long
out-of-print) history of the locomotives in Norwegian, but nothing
covering the subject as a whole.

At this stage I think I have most of the necessary source material, and
an outline structure of chapter headings. When I have more to show for
it I will be seeking a publisher in the UK but if necessary I will self
publish. I expect most of the market for such a book would be in Europe,
not in the southern hemisphere, though early Queensland developments
will be partly covered in the book.

Regards,

Frank



On 3/01/2011 4:14 AM, Brian Rumary wrote:

Frank Stamford wrote:

Later this year I hope to start writing a book on Norwegian 3ft 6in
gauge railways, and that will need a lot of map work.
That should be worth waiting for; I don't know of _any_ books on the
subject in English. Don't forget to let us know the details when it
finally comes out.

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


rthorne475
 

But don't the early 3'6"g. locos in Norway have more in common with those in South Australia that in Queensland?  Norway's Beyer, Peacock 2-4-0Ts with sloping cylinders dated from1873 and the SAR's W class 2-6-0s of 1877 were clearly a BP development of that design.  I imagine that the SAR V class 0-4-4Ts of 1876 were derived from the Norwegian 0-4-4Ts of 1875, both being built by BP.  Both systems used centre couplings, whereas QGR used buffers and screw link couplings.  I seem to recall that either John Knowles or Bill Callaghan had an interest in this, but I'm sure that you are well aware of it, too.

Richard

--- On Sun, 2/1/11, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com> wrote:

From: Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Norwegian Museum Railways ...
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Date: Sunday, 2 January, 2011, 20:47







 









Hello Brian,



Thanks for your comment.



I do not know of any books in any language covering the subject as a

whole. There are a several good histories of individual lines in

Norwegian (the Røros line in particular), and a very good (but long

out-of-print) history of the locomotives in Norwegian, but nothing

covering the subject as a whole.



At this stage I think I have most of the necessary source material, and

an outline structure of chapter headings. When I have more to show for

it I will be seeking a publisher in the UK but if necessary I will self

publish. I expect most of the market for such a book would be in Europe,

not in the southern hemisphere, though early Queensland developments

will be partly covered in the book.



Regards,



Frank



On 3/01/2011 4:14 AM, Brian Rumary wrote:

Frank Stamford wrote:
Later this year I hope to start writing a book on Norwegian 3ft 6in
gauge railways, and that will need a lot of map work.
That should be worth waiting for; I don't know of _any_ books on the
subject in English. Don't forget to let us know the details when it
finally comes out.
Brian Rumary, England
www.rumary.co.uk


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Frank Stamford
 

On 3/01/2011 9:59 AM, richard horne wrote:

But don't the early 3'6"g. locos in Norway have more in common with
those in South Australia that in Queensland? Norway's Beyer, Peacock
2-4-0Ts with sloping cylinders dated from1873 and the SAR's W class
2-6-0s of 1877 were clearly a BP development of that design. I
imagine that the SAR V class 0-4-4Ts of 1876 were derived from the
Norwegian 0-4-4Ts of 1875, both being built by BP. Both systems used
centre couplings, whereas QGR used buffers and screw link couplings.
I seem to recall that either John Knowles or Bill Callaghan had an
interest in this, but I'm sure that you are well aware of it, too.

Richard
Hello Richard,

Yes there is also a close connection between the early South Australian
3ft 6in gauge and the Norwegian 3ft 6in gauge, and I intend to cover
that in the book. As things developed the South Australian 3ft 6in gauge
more closely resembled the Norwegian than did the Queensland.

Norway's Beyer, Peacock 2-4-0Ts with the sloping cylinders were an
extremely important development, as they greatly surpassed the previous
attempts at building 3ft 6in gauge locos in performance. They appear to
have been jointly designed by Carl Pihl (of Norway) and Charles Beyer.
The first was "Tryggve" BP builder's number 704 of June 1866, so they
predated the Isle of Man copies by a considerable time. Yes the SAR "V"
class derived from the Norwegian Type VI, but they were much smaller
than the Norwegian locos.

The early sequence of 3ft 6in gauge developments (as I see it) were:

1. 1862 - Hamar-Grundsett (Norway) railway opened - proved 3ft 6in gauge
would work for a public railway. Used link and pin couplings, and 0-4-2T
locomotives built by Robert Stephenson which had a rigid wheelbase and
recommended minimum curve radius of 15 chains.

2. 1864 - Trondheim-Støren (Norway) railway opened - proved 3ft 6in
gauge would work in difficult country. Still used link and pin
couplings, but locomotives were Avonside 2-4-0Ts with leading Bissell
truck, and much more successful on sharp curves (but the sharpest was 9
chains radius).

3. 1865 - 1867 Ipswich - Toowoomba railway opened - proved that 3ft 6in
gauge would work in mountainous country with very sharp curves (5 chains
radius). First locomotives were Avonside 2-4-0s - a tender version of
the locomotives already supplied to Norway. Did not use chopper
couplings as they had not been invented yet, and the English consultant
Charles Fox did not like the link and pin couplings.

4. 1866 - 1868 Drammen - Randsfjord (Norway) railway opened. First use
of chopper couplings, and first use of Beyer, Peacock sloping cylindered
2-4-0T locomotives. Both of these new developments were considered very
successful.

After that a frenzy of 3ft 6in gauge developments occurred throughout
the world.

It perplexes me why Queensland avoided using Beyer, Peacock locomotives
when they were used so successfully in all the other Australian
colonies. Possibly politicians or book-keepers made the decisions based
on lowest tender bids rather than long term cost effectiveness

Regards,

Frank






--- On Sun, 2/1/11, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com
<mailto:frank.stamford%40bigpond.com>> wrote:

From: Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com
<mailto:frank.stamford%40bigpond.com>>
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Norwegian Museum Railways ...
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>
Date: Sunday, 2 January, 2011, 20:47



Hello Brian,

Thanks for your comment.

I do not know of any books in any language covering the subject as a

whole. There are a several good histories of individual lines in

Norwegian (the Røros line in particular), and a very good (but long

out-of-print) history of the locomotives in Norwegian, but nothing

covering the subject as a whole.

At this stage I think I have most of the necessary source material, and

an outline structure of chapter headings. When I have more to show for

it I will be seeking a publisher in the UK but if necessary I will self

publish. I expect most of the market for such a book would be in Europe,

not in the southern hemisphere, though early Queensland developments

will be partly covered in the book.

Regards,

Frank

On 3/01/2011 4:14 AM, Brian Rumary wrote:

Frank Stamford wrote:
Later this year I hope to start writing a book on Norwegian 3ft 6in
gauge railways, and that will need a lot of map work.
That should be worth waiting for; I don't know of _any_ books on the
subject in English. Don't forget to let us know the details when it
finally comes out.
Brian Rumary, England
www.rumary.co.uk
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


rthorne475
 

Thank you, Frank.  Fascinating and I'll look forward to purchasing your book in due course!
Best wishes,
Richard

--- On Mon, 3/1/11, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com> wrote:

From: Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Norwegian Museum Railways ...
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Date: Monday, 3 January, 2011, 0:10







 









On 3/01/2011 9:59 AM, richard horne wrote:

But don't the early 3'6"g. locos in Norway have more in common with
those in South Australia that in Queensland? Norway's Beyer, Peacock
2-4-0Ts with sloping cylinders dated from1873 and the SAR's W class
2-6-0s of 1877 were clearly a BP development of that design. I
imagine that the SAR V class 0-4-4Ts of 1876 were derived from the
Norwegian 0-4-4Ts of 1875, both being built by BP. Both systems used
centre couplings, whereas QGR used buffers and screw link couplings.
I seem to recall that either John Knowles or Bill Callaghan had an
interest in this, but I'm sure that you are well aware of it, too.
Richard
Hello Richard,



Yes there is also a close connection between the early South Australian

3ft 6in gauge and the Norwegian 3ft 6in gauge, and I intend to cover

that in the book. As things developed the South Australian 3ft 6in gauge

more closely resembled the Norwegian than did the Queensland.



Norway's Beyer, Peacock 2-4-0Ts with the sloping cylinders were an

extremely important development, as they greatly surpassed the previous

attempts at building 3ft 6in gauge locos in performance. They appear to

have been jointly designed by Carl Pihl (of Norway) and Charles Beyer.

The first was "Tryggve" BP builder's number 704 of June 1866, so they

predated the Isle of Man copies by a considerable time. Yes the SAR "V"

class derived from the Norwegian Type VI, but they were much smaller

than the Norwegian locos.



The early sequence of 3ft 6in gauge developments (as I see it) were:



1. 1862 - Hamar-Grundsett (Norway) railway opened - proved 3ft 6in gauge

would work for a public railway. Used link and pin couplings, and 0-4-2T

locomotives built by Robert Stephenson which had a rigid wheelbase and

recommended minimum curve radius of 15 chains.



2. 1864 - Trondheim-Støren (Norway) railway opened - proved 3ft 6in

gauge would work in difficult country. Still used link and pin

couplings, but locomotives were Avonside 2-4-0Ts with leading Bissell

truck, and much more successful on sharp curves (but the sharpest was 9

chains radius).



3. 1865 - 1867 Ipswich - Toowoomba railway opened - proved that 3ft 6in

gauge would work in mountainous country with very sharp curves (5 chains

radius). First locomotives were Avonside 2-4-0s - a tender version of

the locomotives already supplied to Norway. Did not use chopper

couplings as they had not been invented yet, and the English consultant

Charles Fox did not like the link and pin couplings.



4. 1866 - 1868 Drammen - Randsfjord (Norway) railway opened. First use

of chopper couplings, and first use of Beyer, Peacock sloping cylindered

2-4-0T locomotives. Both of these new developments were considered very

successful.



After that a frenzy of 3ft 6in gauge developments occurred throughout

the world.



It perplexes me why Queensland avoided using Beyer, Peacock locomotives

when they were used so successfully in all the other Australian

colonies. Possibly politicians or book-keepers made the decisions based

on lowest tender bids rather than long term cost effectiveness



Regards,



Frank



--- On Sun, 2/1/11, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com
<mailto:frank.stamford%40bigpond.com>> wrote:
From: Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@bigpond.com
<mailto:frank.stamford%40bigpond.com>>
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Norwegian Museum Railways ...
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>
Date: Sunday, 2 January, 2011, 20:47
Hello Brian,
Thanks for your comment.
I do not know of any books in any language covering the subject as a
whole. There are a several good histories of individual lines in
Norwegian (the Røros line in particular), and a very good (but long
out-of-print) history of the locomotives in Norwegian, but nothing
covering the subject as a whole.
At this stage I think I have most of the necessary source material, and
an outline structure of chapter headings. When I have more to show for
it I will be seeking a publisher in the UK but if necessary I will self
publish. I expect most of the market for such a book would be in Europe,
not in the southern hemisphere, though early Queensland developments
will be partly covered in the book.
Regards,
Frank
On 3/01/2011 4:14 AM, Brian Rumary wrote:
Frank Stamford wrote:
Later this year I hope to start writing a book on Norwegian 3ft 6in
gauge railways, and that will need a lot of map work.
That should be worth waiting for; I don't know of _any_ books on the
subject in English. Don't forget to let us know the details when it
finally comes out.
Brian Rumary, England
www.rumary.co.uk
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Eddie_Barnes
 

Seconded. I can think of several more titles, mostly Norwegian, but none covering the 3'6" lines specifically.

As for a publisher, why not try Frank Stenvalls in Malmö? He has lots of experience of publishing English-language titles, and the connections to distrubute internationally.

--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au, Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@...> wrote:

Hello Brian,

Thanks for your comment.

I do not know of any books in any language covering the subject as a
whole. There are a several good histories of individual lines in
Norwegian (the Røros line in particular), and a very good (but long
out-of-print) history of the locomotives in Norwegian, but nothing
covering the subject as a whole.

At this stage I think I have most of the necessary source material, and
an outline structure of chapter headings. When I have more to show for
it I will be seeking a publisher in the UK but if necessary I will self
publish. I expect most of the market for such a book would be in Europe,
not in the southern hemisphere, though early Queensland developments
will be partly covered in the book.

Regards,

Frank



On 3/01/2011 4:14 AM, Brian Rumary wrote:

Frank Stamford wrote:

Later this year I hope to start writing a book on Norwegian 3ft 6in
gauge railways, and that will need a lot of map work.
That should be worth waiting for; I don't know of _any_ books on the
subject in English. Don't forget to let us know the details when it
finally comes out.

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Frank Stamford
 

Hello Eddie,

Thank you very much for that suggestion, which I will follow up later
when the project is more advanced.

Back in the 1970s I had quite a bit of correspondence with Frank
Stenvall when the LRRSA was selling the excellent English language
publication "Rail Scene" which Frank was publishing at that time.


Regards,

Frank



On 4/01/2011 12:27 AM, Eddie_Barnes wrote:

Seconded. I can think of several more titles, mostly Norwegian, but
none covering the 3'6" lines specifically.

As for a publisher, why not try Frank Stenvalls in Malmö? He has lots
of experience of publishing English-language titles, and the
connections to distrubute internationally.

--- In LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au <mailto:LRRSA%40yahoogroups.com.au>,
Frank Stamford <frank.stamford@...> wrote:

Hello Brian,

Thanks for your comment.

I do not know of any books in any language covering the subject as a
whole. There are a several good histories of individual lines in
Norwegian (the Røros line in particular), and a very good (but long
out-of-print) history of the locomotives in Norwegian, but nothing
covering the subject as a whole.

At this stage I think I have most of the necessary source material, and
an outline structure of chapter headings. When I have more to show for
it I will be seeking a publisher in the UK but if necessary I will self
publish. I expect most of the market for such a book would be in
Europe,
not in the southern hemisphere, though early Queensland developments
will be partly covered in the book.

Regards,

Frank



On 3/01/2011 4:14 AM, Brian Rumary wrote:

Frank Stamford wrote:

Later this year I hope to start writing a book on Norwegian 3ft 6in
gauge railways, and that will need a lot of map work.
That should be worth waiting for; I don't know of _any_ books on the
subject in English. Don't forget to let us know the details when it
finally comes out.

Brian Rumary, England

www.rumary.co.uk



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]