Date   

Balls!

Iain
 

The Dictionary of Industrial Archaeology defines docks as “places of safe anchorage for sea-going ships where they may be safely loaded and unloaded, with facilities for storage of goods in transit and for repairing ships…”.  I think this needs to be qualified by stating that it is an artificial construction and consists of wharfs and piers for unloading and loading goods and passengers.

 

The same tome describes a dry dock as

 

An arm of a waterway into which boat (!!) may be pass for repair or in which they may be built. The water can be pumped in or out and the dock kept empty by a lock gate. A Graving dock is named because graving is to remove small accretions from the underwater portions of a boat of ship.

 

However when the term slip is looked up the author discusses clay slips and patent slips or marine railways are not mentioned at all.

 

However what is of interest is the confusing use of terminology.

 

Cheers

 

Dr Iain Stuart

 

JCIS Consultants

P.O. Box 2397

Burwood North

NSW 2134

Australia

 

(02) 97010191

Iain_Stuart@...

 


Re: : Re: Balls Head

Michael McCarthy
 

I think they are. Victoria Dock for example had Central Pier which featured numbered wharves along both sides as it jutted out from the end of the dock.
Generally speaking I think Australian usage would see a pier being a more substantially constructed and larger for of a jetty.
Cheers
Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 1 Mar 2016, at 12:43 PM, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

Indeed. And perhaps the largest container berth in Melbourne is Appleton Dock. 

Looks to me as though the names are all interchangable...

John

On 29 February 2016 at 23:07, Mike McCarthy mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

I disagree with the orientation point. Melbourne had many wharves that were at right angles to the shore. It's about function. Wharves to me are facilities where ships/boats berthed to take on/ take off people/cargo. The direction they pointed is irrelevant.
You can tie a boat up to anything.  Many jetties had landing platforms to tie up to. The platforms sometimes are referred to as wharves. It's all pretty subjective.
Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 22:38, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

Fair enough. I agree with your jetty/pier descriptions then . However boats tie up to both jetties and piers, as well as wharves. My description of a wharf would include something indicating "running parallel to the coast/river bank" as opposed to jutting out into the water. 

But. there are exceptions everywhere, I am sure...

John

On 29 February 2016 at 22:28, Mike McCarthy mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

More of description than a definition and in any case I wasn't referring to length. I was referring to how substantial a structure it is. If it was of typical wooden pile construction and a couple of meters in width it would be a jetty to me. If it was of concrete construction I would be inclined to call it a pier.
I suspect pier vs jetty is a bit subjective. What I gave is how I would describe each. How someone else does is their business.
Its a bit like boat vs ship and tramway vs railway. There is a big grey zone. Also some structures start off as small jetties and continue to be referred to as such even if a century later they are of much more substantial construction. "Welshpool jetty" for example is very much a pier to me these days.

Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 19:55, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

The Carnarvon Jetty and the Port Germein Jetty, both about one mile long, sort of contradict your "small/medium" definition. 

John

On 29 February 2016 at 19:47, mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike





Re: : Re: Balls Head

John Dennis
 

Indeed. And perhaps the largest container berth in Melbourne is Appleton Dock. 

Looks to me as though the names are all interchangable...

John

On 29 February 2016 at 23:07, Mike McCarthy mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

I disagree with the orientation point. Melbourne had many wharves that were at right angles to the shore. It's about function. Wharves to me are facilities where ships/boats berthed to take on/ take off people/cargo. The direction they pointed is irrelevant.
You can tie a boat up to anything.  Many jetties had landing platforms to tie up to. The platforms sometimes are referred to as wharves. It's all pretty subjective.
Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 22:38, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

Fair enough. I agree with your jetty/pier descriptions then . However boats tie up to both jetties and piers, as well as wharves. My description of a wharf would include something indicating "running parallel to the coast/river bank" as opposed to jutting out into the water. 

But. there are exceptions everywhere, I am sure...

John

On 29 February 2016 at 22:28, Mike McCarthy mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

More of description than a definition and in any case I wasn't referring to length. I was referring to how substantial a structure it is. If it was of typical wooden pile construction and a couple of meters in width it would be a jetty to me. If it was of concrete construction I would be inclined to call it a pier.
I suspect pier vs jetty is a bit subjective. What I gave is how I would describe each. How someone else does is their business.
Its a bit like boat vs ship and tramway vs railway. There is a big grey zone. Also some structures start off as small jetties and continue to be referred to as such even if a century later they are of much more substantial construction. "Welshpool jetty" for example is very much a pier to me these days.

Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 19:55, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

The Carnarvon Jetty and the Port Germein Jetty, both about one mile long, sort of contradict your "small/medium" definition. 

John

On 29 February 2016 at 19:47, mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike





Re: Balls Head

Chris Stratton
 

So the Tee jetty at Wollongong was also a wharf. To be relevant here it did have a rail line on it, connected to the Mt Keira tramway. I'm not sure if it was dual gauge and also connected to the Mt Pleasant tramway.

Regards,
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au [mailto:LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au]
Sent: Monday, 29 February 2016 10:44 PM
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Balls Head



While we're being pedantic, the plural of Wharf is Wharves.


And a Jetty can be a Pier, or a Wharf can be a Pier (determined by their construction), but Jetty and Wharf are mutually exclusive (unless they are "L" shaped and lay both parallel and at right angles to the shore!)


And the Woolloomoolloo Finger Wharf was so named because Australian Stevedores are all called Wharfies. They probably would go on strike if someone called them Jetters or Pieries.


--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 29/2/16, 'Iain Stuart' iain_stuart@optusnet.com.au [LRRSA] <LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:


Subject: [LRRSA] Balls Head
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Received: Monday, 29 February, 2016, 7:05 AM


How do we account for “finger wharfs” (eg Walsh Bay) which are surely either piers or jetties??




Cheers
Dr Iain Stuart
JCIS Consultants
P.O. Box 2397
Burwood North, NSW, 2134
Australia (02) 9701019
1Iain_Stuart@optusnet.com.au



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Re: Balls Head

Noel Reed
 

Manly Wharf extends at 90 degrees from the shore and is shown on the destinations of all bus routes in the area.

 

Regarding ‘Wharfies’, where does ‘Stevedore’ fit in to the discussion ?

 

Noel Reed.

 

From: LRRSA@... [mailto:LRRSA@...]
Sent: Monday, 29 February 2016 10:44 PM
To: LRRSA@...
Subject: Re: [LRRSA] Balls Head

 

 



While we're being pedantic, the plural of Wharf is Wharves.

And a Jetty can be a Pier, or a Wharf can be a Pier (determined by their construction), but Jetty and Wharf are mutually exclusive (unless they are "L" shaped and lay both parallel and at right angles to the shore!)

And the Woolloomoolloo Finger Wharf was so named because Australian Stevedores are all called Wharfies. They probably would go on strike if someone called them Jetters or Pieries.

--------------------------------------------
On Mon, 29/2/16, 'Iain Stuart' iain_stuart@... [LRRSA] wrote:

Subject: [LRRSA] Balls Head
To: LRRSA@...
Received: Monday, 29 February, 2016, 7:05 AM


How do we account for “finger wharfs” (eg Walsh Bay) which are surely either piers or jetties??

 Cheers  
Dr Iain Stuart  
JCIS Consultants
P.O. Box 2397
Burwood North, NSW, 2134
Australia  (02) 9701019
1Iain_Stuart@...  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: : Re: Balls Head

Michael McCarthy
 

I disagree with the orientation point. Melbourne had many wharves that were at right angles to the shore. It's about function. Wharves to me are facilities where ships/boats berthed to take on/ take off people/cargo. The direction they pointed is irrelevant.
You can tie a boat up to anything.  Many jetties had landing platforms to tie up to. The platforms sometimes are referred to as wharves. It's all pretty subjective.
Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 22:38, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

Fair enough. I agree with your jetty/pier descriptions then . However boats tie up to both jetties and piers, as well as wharves. My description of a wharf would include something indicating "running parallel to the coast/river bank" as opposed to jutting out into the water. 

But. there are exceptions everywhere, I am sure...

John

On 29 February 2016 at 22:28, Mike McCarthy mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

More of description than a definition and in any case I wasn't referring to length. I was referring to how substantial a structure it is. If it was of typical wooden pile construction and a couple of meters in width it would be a jetty to me. If it was of concrete construction I would be inclined to call it a pier.
I suspect pier vs jetty is a bit subjective. What I gave is how I would describe each. How someone else does is their business.
Its a bit like boat vs ship and tramway vs railway. There is a big grey zone. Also some structures start off as small jetties and continue to be referred to as such even if a century later they are of much more substantial construction. "Welshpool jetty" for example is very much a pier to me these days.

Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 19:55, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

The Carnarvon Jetty and the Port Germein Jetty, both about one mile long, sort of contradict your "small/medium" definition. 

John

On 29 February 2016 at 19:47, mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike




Re: : Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 

On 29/02/2016 22:38, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] wrote:
Fair enough. I agree with your jetty/pier descriptions then . However boats tie up to both jetties and piers, as well as wharves. My description of a wharf would include something indicating "running parallel to the coast/river bank" as opposed to jutting out into the water. 



The ferry 'wharves' at Circular Quay in Sydney are perpendicular to the shore.  Although I haven't heard them so described for many years, they were once also referred to as jetties.



Re: Balls Head

Tony Smith
 

While we're being pedantic, the plural of Wharf is Wharves.


And a Jetty can be a Pier, or a Wharf can be a Pier (determined by their construction), but Jetty and Wharf are mutually exclusive (unless they are "L" shaped and lay both parallel and at right angles to the shore!)


And the Woolloomoolloo Finger Wharf was so named because Australian Stevedores are all called Wharfies. They probably would go on strike if someone called them Jetters or Pieries.


--------------------------------------------

On Mon, 29/2/16, 'Iain Stuart' iain_stuart@optusnet.com.au [LRRSA] <LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au> wrote:


Subject: [LRRSA] Balls Head
To: LRRSA@yahoogroups.com.au
Received: Monday, 29 February, 2016, 7:05 AM


How do we account for “finger wharfs” (eg Walsh Bay) which are surely either piers or jetties??




 Cheers  
Dr Iain Stuart  
JCIS Consultants
P.O. Box 2397
Burwood North, NSW, 2134
Australia  (02) 9701019
1Iain_Stuart@optusnet.com.au


Re: : Re: Balls Head

John Dennis
 

Fair enough. I agree with your jetty/pier descriptions then . However boats tie up to both jetties and piers, as well as wharves. My description of a wharf would include something indicating "running parallel to the coast/river bank" as opposed to jutting out into the water. 

But. there are exceptions everywhere, I am sure...

John

On 29 February 2016 at 22:28, Mike McCarthy mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

More of description than a definition and in any case I wasn't referring to length. I was referring to how substantial a structure it is. If it was of typical wooden pile construction and a couple of meters in width it would be a jetty to me. If it was of concrete construction I would be inclined to call it a pier.
I suspect pier vs jetty is a bit subjective. What I gave is how I would describe each. How someone else does is their business.
Its a bit like boat vs ship and tramway vs railway. There is a big grey zone. Also some structures start off as small jetties and continue to be referred to as such even if a century later they are of much more substantial construction. "Welshpool jetty" for example is very much a pier to me these days.

Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 19:55, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

The Carnarvon Jetty and the Port Germein Jetty, both about one mile long, sort of contradict your "small/medium" definition. 

John

On 29 February 2016 at 19:47, mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike




Re: : Re: Balls Head

Michael McCarthy
 

I think a dock is a semi-enclosed berthing structure. 

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 19:56, Rod Hutchinson rodhutchy@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

What is a dock then?

Rod Hutchinson
Mooroolbark
Australia

On 29 Feb 2016 7:47 pm, "mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike


Re: : Re: Balls Head

Michael McCarthy
 

More of description than a definition and in any case I wasn't referring to length. I was referring to how substantial a structure it is. If it was of typical wooden pile construction and a couple of meters in width it would be a jetty to me. If it was of concrete construction I would be inclined to call it a pier.
I suspect pier vs jetty is a bit subjective. What I gave is how I would describe each. How someone else does is their business.
Its a bit like boat vs ship and tramway vs railway. There is a big grey zone. Also some structures start off as small jetties and continue to be referred to as such even if a century later they are of much more substantial construction. "Welshpool jetty" for example is very much a pier to me these days.

Mike

Mobile: +61 407700911

On 29 Feb 2016, at 19:55, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:

 

The Carnarvon Jetty and the Port Germein Jetty, both about one mile long, sort of contradict your "small/medium" definition. 

John

On 29 February 2016 at 19:47, mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike



Re: : Re: Balls Head

Rod Hutchinson
 

What is a dock then?

Rod Hutchinson
Mooroolbark
Australia

On 29 Feb 2016 7:47 pm, "mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA]" <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike


Re: : Re: Balls Head

John Dennis
 

The Carnarvon Jetty and the Port Germein Jetty, both about one mile long, sort of contradict your "small/medium" definition. 

John

On 29 February 2016 at 19:47, mike.mccarthy51@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike



Re: : Re: Balls Head

Michael McCarthy
 

My own definition/description would be:
Jetty - a small/medium sized wooden structure jutting out from a shoreline
Pier - a large wooden or masonry structure jutting out from a shoreline
Wharf - a structure that boats or ships tie up to.

This is how I have always understood things but can't recall why I have come to understand these structures in this way.
Cheers,
Mike


Balls Head

Iain
 

How do we account for “finger wharfs” (eg Walsh Bay) which are surely either piers or jetties??

 

Cheers

 

Dr Iain Stuart

 

JCIS Consultants

P.O. Box 2397

Burwood North

NSW 2134

Australia

 

(02) 97010191

Iain_Stuart@...

 


Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 

On 28/02/2016 22:35, John Dennis jdennis412@... [LRRSA] wrote:
I guess that's American English. I have never heard of any Australian breakwater called either a pier or a jetty.

I'm not so sure. I think it was quite common when I was young for 'jetty' to be used for rock constructions that jutted out into water and had flat tops that could be walked on. [The word 'jut' may come from the same root as well.] They were arguably mini-breakwaters, so that perhaps there is another line of enquiry as to how big such a structure has to be in order to be called a breakwater.

http://parkweb.vic.gov.au/explore/bays-rivers-and-ports/port-phillip/things-to-do/piers-and-jetties
provides an interesting array of objects variously known as piers and jetties, and breakwaters are also mentioned - perhaps someone could analyse the differences (if any) between those piers and jetties.

I hope that the good residents of Long Jetty on the central coast of NSW are not going to be compelled to change the name to Long Pier.


Re: Balls Head

John Dennis
 

I guess that's American English. I have never heard of any Australian breakwater called either a pier or a jetty.

John

On 28 February 2016 at 22:32, Eddie Oliver eoliver@... [LRRSA] <LRRSA@...> wrote:


Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 


Re: Balls Head

Eddie Oliver
 

On 28/02/2016 21:41, Greg Stephenson greg.stephenson@... [LRRSA] wrote:

I always think about a jetty heading out at right angles to the shore

which is consistent with the word being derived from the same base as the French word jeter, which means to throw - so the jetty throws away from the shore.

 
The use of the terms jetty, wharf and pier seem to be pretty interchangable with newspaper writers so searching all terms is recommended in resources like Trove.


indeed. I disagree with the message that started this thread, which asserted a 'pedantic' difference (implying non-overlap) between pier and jetty. I suggest that in fact they at least overlap even if they are not completely interchangeable. Something can simultaneously be a pier and a jetty.


Re: Balls Head

Greg Stephenson <greg.stephenson@...>
 


It appears our peers are peering at the pier on top of the pier.  No wonder people get confused with English.
 
I always think about a jetty heading out at right angles to the shore and a wharf being parallel to the shore with a pier used for more gentlemanly pursuits like promanading or amusement arcades.
 
The use of the terms jetty, wharf and pier seem to be pretty interchangable with newspaper writers so searching all terms is recommended in resources like Trove.
 
Greg Stephenson
Brisbane, Australia

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